Tear Down That Wall (child raping priests)

Abdul Alhazred · 25th March 2010, 08:22 AM

Tear Down That Wall
Christopher Hitchens in Slate

Quote:

Here's a little thought experiment on practical ethics. Suppose that you are having a drink with a new acquaintance and the subject of law-breaking comes up. "Ever been in any trouble with the authorities?"

You may perhaps mention your arrest at a demonstration, your smuggling of excess duty-free goods, that brush with the narcotics people, that unwise attempt at insider trading. Your counterpart may show a closer acquaintance with the criminal justice system. He once did a bit of time for forgery, or for robbery with a touch of violence, or for a domestic dispute that got a bit out of hand. You are still perhaps ready to have lunch next Friday. But what if he says: "Well, I once knew a couple who trusted me as their baby sitter. Two little boys they had—one of 12 and one of 10. A good bit of fun I had with those kids when nobody was looking. Told them it was our secret. I was sorry when it all ended." I hope I don't seem too judgmental if I say that at this point the lunch is canceled or indefinitely postponed.

And would you feel any less or any more revulsion if the man went on to say, "Of course, I wasn't strictly speaking in any trouble with the law. I'm a Catholic priest, so we don't bother the police or the courts with that stuff. We take care of it ourselves, if you catch my meaning"?

Yet this is exactly what we are forced to read about every day.

...

Abdul Alhazred · 25th March 2010, 08:27 AM

Yes I'm Santa Claus. Want some candy?

a_unique_person · 25th March 2010, 01:42 PM

The Catholic church still doesn't get it. It has been sitting on a debacle of transgressions of human rights that is mind boggling in it's extent.

JJM 777 · 27th March 2010, 04:14 AM

I humbly suggest (on second thought, I aggressively suggest) that it should be illegal for employers (including the employers of religious workes) to ban their employees from getting married.

Pardalis · 27th March 2010, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

I humbly suggest (on second thought, I aggressively suggest) that it should be illegal for employers (including the employers of religious workes) to ban their employees from getting married.

And what does that got to do with the OP?

Aepervius · 27th March 2010, 09:32 AM

I think the message is simple : they value the privacy and protection of the priest foremost, their own church ritual (confession and stuff) and children come last.

Which make a quite interresting set of priority, but isn't too surprising from a group which will never be involved (or should not be involved) into fathering children. maybe if they were father and husband first before being priest, they would reverse the above priority a bit.

I Ratant · 27th March 2010, 09:38 AM

The sin is forgiven in the confessional.
Performing the penance given is all that is needed for contrition.
That -never- includes surrendering to the secular authorities and admitting to the -crime-, the church's rule supercede those of the secular world, and need not be followed.

Aepervius · 27th March 2010, 09:48 AM

Quote:

the church's rule supercede those of the secular world

That might have been true in the middle age society, but nowadays the western society seem to concider that the secular law clearly supercede the church doctrine not matter what the church think of that.

In other word, whether or not the contrition has been made and the sin forgiven, in the face of the law that does not matter.

Furthermore I would add that a group which consider itself above the law is dangerous to the society and should certainly be punished as a whole when there is evidence of collusion to hide crime from the law (RICO like).

The other group which consider themselves above the law are the various criminal organisation and terroristic organisation. That should give one to think, isn't it ?

Profanz · 27th March 2010, 09:50 AM

I think the Catholic church has always been a target for pedophiles to infiltrate. The same as playgrounds and schools. If I see one more teacher in the news caught having sex with a student my head is going to explode. But it's not the church, the school, or the playground that is the problem. It's the pedophile. One of the problems with the Catholic church is that if they were to expel all of the pedophile priests then mostly all they would be left with is the gay priests. I mean who wants to be a priest?

I was raised a Catholic. It's stupid. Like every other religion.

Aepervius · 27th March 2010, 10:18 AM

@profanz change "has become" to "has always been". Profession which deals with children probably always have attracted pedophile. The difference is probably that today it comes up more often to light.

Aepervius · 27th March 2010, 10:28 AM

deleted dupe

I Ratant · 27th March 2010, 10:56 AM

I doubt the Church and its access to children is the main reason people turn to the priesthood.
There's more substantial reasons than that, which is merely a fallout of the unnatural condition the Catholic clergy has adopted for its members.
The sects that permit marriage have problems with pedophilia also.
I recall one of the most disgusting tv preachers I saw in the middle '50s, Billy James Hargis, was found to be boffing both sides of the choir, much to the consternation of his faithful flock of bleevers.

Staropeace · 27th March 2010, 01:31 PM

My real brother ....I was adopted by foster parents....grew up in Mount Cashel orphanage where all the abuse took place and made headlines. The christian brothers had been doing it for years. For a long time,vaious officals,including the police force,turned a blind eye.

I have absolutely no respect for the Catholic church. I am a skeptic but there are religious groups I do respect very much. I use to run a homeless shelter for the Salvation Army before I went back to cooking. They are what religions should be like....if one believed in God.

JJM 777 · 27th March 2010, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

And what does that got to do with the OP?

A vacuum tends to get filled by something.

Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens.

lionking · 27th March 2010, 01:49 PM

If I were a member of an organisation where people in positions of trust and power behaved in such a manner, and where the most senior people in the heirarchy tried to cover things up, I would resign immediately.

bookitty · 27th March 2010, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

A vacuum tends to get filled by something.

Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens.

Well, yes and no. People who molest children do so because they are sexually attracted to children. They may have joined the priesthood in hopes that god would erase this desire or because they saw an opportunity to satisfy it.

Priests who have no interest in children will use their authority to have sex with adults. This is not unknown, it just doesn't make the papers because it is not illegal.

Safe-Keeper · 27th March 2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

If I were a member of an organisation where people in positions of trust and power behaved in such a manner, and where the most senior people in the heirarchy tried to cover things up, I would resign immediately.

Which is why it is a mystery to me why the Catholic church still wields so much power. Here we have an organization that is systematically covering up child abuse, punishing victims for speaking out, and holding on to employees when they are caught raping kids. Imagine if a local boarding school was caught doing the same thing.

Quote:

Well, yes and no. People who molest children do so because they are sexually attracted to children. They may have joined the priesthood in hopes that god would erase this desire or because they saw an opportunity to satisfy it.

Then again, I strongly suspect that lots of paedophiles have joined the catholic church for the sole reason that it allows them to do whatever they want to children without fearing punishment.

Penn and Teller's episode on the Vatican is highly recommended. I especially liked (read: was utterly disgusted by) how abuse victims were ordered to not tell anyone of their experience until X years after reaching adulthood).

Quote:

I doubt the Church and its access to children is the main reason people turn to the priesthood.
There's more substantial reasons than that, which is merely a fallout of the unnatural condition the Catholic clergy has adopted for its members.
The sects that permit marriage have problems with pedophilia also.

To what extent do they have these problems compared to the RCC, and how many of them handle the matter the same way as the RCC?

Quote:

The sin is forgiven in the confessional.
Performing the penance given is all that is needed for contrition.
That -never- includes surrendering to the secular authorities and admitting to the -crime-, the church's rule supercede those of the secular world, and need not be followed.

Would you feel the same way if you were one of the children who got abused by priests and had to shut up about it until well into adulthood? I think not.

Abdul Alhazred · 27th March 2010, 03:23 PM

And another:

Vienna Boys’ Choir caught up in sex abuse scandals
The Telegraph

The good part:

Quote:

... The [German] Government is considering extending the statute of limitations on sexual abuse. ...

Sledge · 27th March 2010, 03:57 PM

No, the good part is the name of the Berlin correspondent for The Times Online.

geni · 27th March 2010, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

A vacuum tends to get filled by something.

Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens.

There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.

geni · 27th March 2010, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

To what extent do they have these problems compared to the RCC, and how many of them handle the matter the same way as the RCC?

Hard to say since their are fewer journalists looking into the subject. We know that the CofE has had issues as have some Jewish sects.

Sun Countess · 27th March 2010, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

If I were a member of an organisation where people in positions of trust and power behaved in such a manner, and where the most senior people in the heirarchy tried to cover things up, I would resign immediately.

This is exactly what I was going to say. It boggles that they have millions of paying members.

If everybody quit the Catholic Church, they wouldn't need priests.

I Ratant · 27th March 2010, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by geni

There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.

.
The opportunities are limited, with the minimum age restrictions on military service.

Sledge · 27th March 2010, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by geni

There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.

I wasn't aware that submariners were obliged to be celibate for their whole lives.

geni · 27th March 2010, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

I wasn't aware that submariners were obliged to be celibate for their whole lives.

I wasn't aware that spending months from any memeber of the oposite sex provided typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure.

geni · 27th March 2010, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
The opportunities are limited, with the minimum age restrictions on military service.

I'm not aware of any branch of the US armed forces where there isn't at least passing contact with civilian children from time to time.

Sledge · 27th March 2010, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by geni

I wasn't aware that spending months from any memeber of the oposite sex provided typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure.

You do know that Catholic priests aren't given leave every couple of months to go home to the wife? It's just, and you're going to be so embarrassed when you realise, you're comparing people who sometimes don't have the opportunity to have sex for a few months at a time with people who are forbidden to ever have sex at all.

lionking · 27th March 2010, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Which is why it is a mystery to me why the Catholic church still wields so much power. Here we have an organization that is systematically covering up child abuse, punishing victims for speaking out, and holding on to employees when they are caught raping kids. Imagine if a local boarding school was caught doing the same thing.

I just read today that 98% of catholics in Australia don't go to mass. The number of catholics will diminish each generation, at least in the first world.

geni · 28th March 2010, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

You do know that Catholic priests aren't given leave every couple of months to go home to the wife? It's just, and you're going to be so embarrassed when you realise, you're comparing people who sometimes don't have the opportunity to have sex for a few months at a time with people who are forbidden to ever have sex at all.

Impressive goalpost moving there.

In any case no amount of goalpost moving changes the fact there is no evidence to show that celibacy has a causative effect on pedophilia.

JJM 777 · 28th March 2010, 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by geni

There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.

There is statistical evidence of higher rates of gay behaviour in single-sex circumstances, such as prisons.

No, I will not bother to find links for that evidence, my lifestyle is too busy and too heterosexual and too unCatholic.

Wrathernaut · 28th March 2010, 03:35 AM

Originally Posted by geni

I'm not aware of any branch of the US armed forces where there isn't at least passing contact with civilian children from time to time.

My year in Iraq, I was within the "wire" the ENTIRE year (minus my 2-week R&R leave). I didn't see a single person under the age of 18. My current year elsewhere, if not for dropping people off at the airport, the situation is pretty much the same.

As far as "No socially acceptable sexual pleasure" in the Armed Forces - personal sexual pleasure is downright socially acceptable, talk of it isn't exactly taboo, but it's always conducted in a private matter. Not so much for the Catholic world.

Sun Countess · 28th March 2010, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by Sledge

you're comparing people who sometimes don't have the opportunity to have sex for a few months at a time with people who are forbidden to ever have sex at all.

It's not forbidden for them to have sex. Nobody is forcing anybody to marry a church instead of a person, effectively taking a vow of celibacy. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay a priest against their will. And nobody is even forcing priests who have sex with women, children, or other men to leave their positions or divorce the church.

A heterosexual priest can have sex with all the women he wants, including prostitutes, the same as any husband can cheat on his wife. Where a wife may kick out a husband for adultery, the church will probably agree to counselling with a straying "spouse."

Same thing for homosexual priests, only easier access to other men, and no surprise pregnancies.

Priests don't become pedophiles because they are forbidden from having adult sex; pedophiles become priests because they think a religious life will cure their sinful desires. These men don't want adult relationships.

If a heterosexual man wants to have regular sexual contact with women, he doesn't have to become a priest. If he becomes a priest anyway (mama always wanted a priest in the family!) and feels he's not able to find a willing woman to cheat with, he's not going to be drawn into the arms of a young boy. That's not a proper substitute.

Statistic pulled from thin air, but I'd guess over 90% of priests are homosexuals or pedophiles, who are drawn to the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires.

Sledge · 28th March 2010, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by geni

Impressive goalpost moving there.

Nope, you're going to have to explain what goalposts have been moved. Or you could just acknowledge that you threw out a poor analogy without thinking about it. Probably less shame in that than continuing to defend a ridiculous position, but it's your call.

Chaos · 28th March 2010, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Sun Countess

It's not forbidden for them to have sex. Nobody is forcing anybody to marry a church instead of a person, effectively taking a vow of celibacy. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay a priest against their will. And nobody is even forcing priests who have sex with women, children, or other men to leave their positions or divorce the church.

A heterosexual priest can have sex with all the women he wants, including prostitutes, the same as any husband can cheat on his wife. Where a wife may kick out a husband for adultery, the church will probably agree to counselling with a straying "spouse."

Same thing for homosexual priests, only easier access to other men, and no surprise pregnancies.

Priests don't become pedophiles because they are forbidden from having adult sex; pedophiles become priests because they think a religious life will cure their sinful desires. These men don't want adult relationships.

If a heterosexual man wants to have regular sexual contact with women, he doesn't have to become a priest. If he becomes a priest anyway (mama always wanted a priest in the family!) and feels he's not able to find a willing woman to cheat with, he's not going to be drawn into the arms of a young boy. That's not a proper substitute.

Statistic pulled from thin air, but I'd guess over 90% of priests are homosexuals or pedophiles, who are drawn to the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires.

They don´t necessarily do it to stifle their desires... they could just as well do it because becoming a priest means they get easy and plentiful access to victims, and their employer will help them keep their crimes hidden and get off free if they ever get caught.

Sun Countess · 28th March 2010, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Chaos

They don´t necessarily do it to stifle their desires... they could just as well do it because becoming a priest means they get easy and plentiful access to victims, and their employer will help them keep their crimes hidden and get off free if they ever get caught.

That too.

My main point is that the men involved are pedophiles before they become priests. The priesthood rules on celibacy don't turn a heterosexual man into a pedophile. (Or a homosexual one.)

Darat · 28th March 2010, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

There is statistical evidence of higher rates of gay behaviour in single-sex circumstances, such as prisons.

No, I will not bother to find links for that evidence, my lifestyle is too busy and too heterosexual and too unCatholic.

What has that got to do with a discussion about paedophilia?

I Ratant · 28th March 2010, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by geni

I'm not aware of any branch of the US armed forces where there isn't at least passing contact with civilian children from time to time.

.
Pointing out submariners, then, for what reason?

I Ratant · 28th March 2010, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Sun Countess

...

Statistic pulled from thin air, but I'd guess over 90% of priests are homosexuals or pedophiles, who are drawn to the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires.

.
Really reaching, that.
I may have felt one (1) of the many priests I knew in my years as a mackeral snapper may have been "odd", but only that one.
The rest are drawn to the profession for other reasons than sex with boys.
A genuine belief they have a calling, for the most part.
The degeneration later is probably a result of proximity, and a loss of belief.

I Ratant · 28th March 2010, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by JJM 777

There is statistical evidence of higher rates of gay behaviour in single-sex circumstances, such as prisons.

No, I will not bother to find links for that evidence, my lifestyle is too busy and too heterosexual and too unCatholic.

.
There's a constant quarrel here about providing condoms to inmates.
Why would they -need- condoms?

Sun Countess · 28th March 2010, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Really reaching, that.
I may have felt one (1) of the many priests I knew in my years as a mackeral snapper may have been "odd", but only that one.
The rest are drawn to the profession for other reasons than sex with boys.
A genuine belief they have a calling, for the most part.
The degeneration later is probably a result of proximity, and a loss of belief.

I don't think 90% are pedophiles, but that the vast majority are homosexuals, attracted to other men. Certainly, my gaydar has pinged bigtime for nearly every priest I've ever met.

They enter the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires, which they've been taught are sinful and can't be acted on.

Nowadays, homosexuality is much more accepted in western society and won't get you kicked out of most families. My best guess is that the ranks of young catholic men entering the priesthood will significantly diminish because they can live the lives they really want to. Which is not a life of sexual celibacy.

However many young homosexual or heterosexual men feel they are genuinely "called" to the priesthood in the coming years, they can either keep to their vows and stay celibate, or....they can stray. But they won't be straying with children of either gender, because they're not pedophiles.

25th March 2010, 08:22 AM	#1
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,475	Tear Down That Wall (child raping priests) Tear Down That Wall Christopher Hitchens in Slate Quote: Here's a little thought experiment on practical ethics. Suppose that you are having a drink with a new acquaintance and the subject of law-breaking comes up. "Ever been in any trouble with the authorities?" You may perhaps mention your arrest at a demonstration, your smuggling of excess duty-free goods, that brush with the narcotics people, that unwise attempt at insider trading. Your counterpart may show a closer acquaintance with the criminal justice system. He once did a bit of time for forgery, or for robbery with a touch of violence, or for a domestic dispute that got a bit out of hand. You are still perhaps ready to have lunch next Friday. But what if he says: "Well, I once knew a couple who trusted me as their baby sitter. Two little boys they had—one of 12 and one of 10. A good bit of fun I had with those kids when nobody was looking. Told them it was our secret. I was sorry when it all ended." I hope I don't seem too judgmental if I say that at this point the lunch is canceled or indefinitely postponed. And would you feel any less or any more revulsion if the man went on to say, "Of course, I wasn't strictly speaking in any trouble with the law. I'm a Catholic priest, so we don't bother the police or the courts with that stuff. We take care of it ourselves, if you catch my meaning"? Yet this is exactly what we are forced to read about every day. ...
	__________________ The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.

25th March 2010, 08:27 AM	#2
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,475	Yes I'm Santa Claus. Want some candy?
	__________________ The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.

25th March 2010, 01:42 PM	#3
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Mt Disappointment Posts: 33,325	The Catholic church still doesn't get it. It has been sitting on a debacle of transgressions of human rights that is mind boggling in it's extent.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes

27th March 2010, 09:32 AM	#6
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,750	I think the message is simple : they value the privacy and protection of the priest foremost, their own church ritual (confession and stuff) and children come last. Which make a quite interresting set of priority, but isn't too surprising from a group which will never be involved (or should not be involved) into fathering children. maybe if they were father and husband first before being priest, they would reverse the above priority a bit.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

27th March 2010, 09:48 AM	#8
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,750	Quote: the church's rule supercede those of the secular world That might have been true in the middle age society, but nowadays the western society seem to concider that the secular law clearly supercede the church doctrine not matter what the church think of that. In other word, whether or not the contrition has been made and the sin forgiven, in the face of the law that does not matter. Furthermore I would add that a group which consider itself above the law is dangerous to the society and should certainly be punished as a whole when there is evidence of collusion to hide crime from the law (RICO like). The other group which consider themselves above the law are the various criminal organisation and terroristic organisation. That should give one to think, isn't it ?
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

27th March 2010, 04:14 AM	#4
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	I humbly suggest (on second thought, I aggressively suggest) that it should be illegal for employers (including the employers of religious workes) to ban their employees from getting married.

27th March 2010, 09:05 AM	#5
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by JJM 777 I humbly suggest (on second thought, I aggressively suggest) that it should be illegal for employers (including the employers of religious workes) to ban their employees from getting married. And what does that got to do with the OP?

27th March 2010, 09:38 AM	#7
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	The sin is forgiven in the confessional. Performing the penance given is all that is needed for contrition. That -never- includes surrendering to the secular authorities and admitting to the -crime-, the church's rule supercede those of the secular world, and need not be followed.

27th March 2010, 09:50 AM	#9
Profanz Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 932	I think the Catholic church has always been a target for pedophiles to infiltrate. The same as playgrounds and schools. If I see one more teacher in the news caught having sex with a student my head is going to explode. But it's not the church, the school, or the playground that is the problem. It's the pedophile. One of the problems with the Catholic church is that if they were to expel all of the pedophile priests then mostly all they would be left with is the gay priests. I mean who wants to be a priest? I was raised a Catholic. It's stupid. Like every other religion.
Profanz Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 932	Last edited by Profanz; 27th March 2010 at 10:47 AM. Reason: Thank you Aepervius

27th March 2010, 10:18 AM	#10
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,750	@profanz change "has become" to "has always been". Profession which deals with children probably always have attracted pedophile. The difference is probably that today it comes up more often to light.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

27th March 2010, 10:28 AM	#11
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,750	deleted dupe
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life. Last edited by Aepervius; 27th March 2010 at 10:30 AM.

27th March 2010, 10:56 AM	#12
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	I doubt the Church and its access to children is the main reason people turn to the priesthood. There's more substantial reasons than that, which is merely a fallout of the unnatural condition the Catholic clergy has adopted for its members. The sects that permit marriage have problems with pedophilia also. I recall one of the most disgusting tv preachers I saw in the middle '50s, Billy James Hargis, was found to be boffing both sides of the choir, much to the consternation of his faithful flock of bleevers.

27th March 2010, 01:31 PM	#13
Staropeace Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Edmonton,Alberta Posts: 360	My real brother ....I was adopted by foster parents....grew up in Mount Cashel orphanage where all the abuse took place and made headlines. The christian brothers had been doing it for years. For a long time,vaious officals,including the police force,turned a blind eye. I have absolutely no respect for the Catholic church. I am a skeptic but there are religious groups I do respect very much. I use to run a homeless shelter for the Salvation Army before I went back to cooking. They are what religions should be like....if one believed in God.

27th March 2010, 01:43 PM	#14
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by Pardalis And what does that got to do with the OP? A vacuum tends to get filled by something. Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens.

27th March 2010, 01:49 PM	#15
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,650	If I were a member of an organisation where people in positions of trust and power behaved in such a manner, and where the most senior people in the heirarchy tried to cover things up, I would resign immediately.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

27th March 2010, 02:37 PM	#16
bookitty Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 5,532	Originally Posted by JJM 777 A vacuum tends to get filled by something. Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens. Well, yes and no. People who molest children do so because they are sexually attracted to children. They may have joined the priesthood in hopes that god would erase this desire or because they saw an opportunity to satisfy it. Priests who have no interest in children will use their authority to have sex with adults. This is not unknown, it just doesn't make the papers because it is not illegal.
	__________________ No more cupcakes for me, thanks.

27th March 2010, 02:59 PM	#17
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,109	Quote: If I were a member of an organisation where people in positions of trust and power behaved in such a manner, and where the most senior people in the heirarchy tried to cover things up, I would resign immediately. Which is why it is a mystery to me why the Catholic church still wields so much power. Here we have an organization that is systematically covering up child abuse, punishing victims for speaking out, and holding on to employees when they are caught raping kids. Imagine if a local boarding school was caught doing the same thing. Quote: Well, yes and no. People who molest children do so because they are sexually attracted to children. They may have joined the priesthood in hopes that god would erase this desire or because they saw an opportunity to satisfy it. Then again, I strongly suspect that lots of paedophiles have joined the catholic church for the sole reason that it allows them to do whatever they want to children without fearing punishment. Penn and Teller's episode on the Vatican is highly recommended. I especially liked (read: was utterly disgusted by) how abuse victims were ordered to not tell anyone of their experience until X years after reaching adulthood). Quote: I doubt the Church and its access to children is the main reason people turn to the priesthood. There's more substantial reasons than that, which is merely a fallout of the unnatural condition the Catholic clergy has adopted for its members. The sects that permit marriage have problems with pedophilia also. To what extent do they have these problems compared to the RCC, and how many of them handle the matter the same way as the RCC? Quote: The sin is forgiven in the confessional. Performing the penance given is all that is needed for contrition. That -never- includes surrendering to the secular authorities and admitting to the -crime-, the church's rule supercede those of the secular world, and need not be followed. Would you feel the same way if you were one of the children who got abused by priests and had to shut up about it until well into adulthood? I think not.
	Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 27th March 2010 at 03:03 PM.

27th March 2010, 03:23 PM	#18
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,475	And another: Vienna Boys’ Choir caught up in sex abuse scandals The Telegraph The good part: Quote: ... The [German] Government is considering extending the statute of limitations on sexual abuse. ...
	__________________ The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.

27th March 2010, 03:57 PM	#19
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	No, the good part is the name of the Berlin correspondent for The Times Online.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

27th March 2010, 04:07 PM	#20
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,557	Originally Posted by JJM 777 A vacuum tends to get filled by something. Create a vacuum of typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure in a man's life (ban the typical sexual relationships from him), and see what happens. There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews.

27th March 2010, 04:08 PM	#21
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,557	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper To what extent do they have these problems compared to the RCC, and how many of them handle the matter the same way as the RCC? Hard to say since their are fewer journalists looking into the subject. We know that the CofE has had issues as have some Jewish sects.

27th March 2010, 04:15 PM	#22
Sun Countess Appearance of intelligence Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 3,176	Originally Posted by lionking If I were a member of an organisation where people in positions of trust and power behaved in such a manner, and where the most senior people in the heirarchy tried to cover things up, I would resign immediately. This is exactly what I was going to say. It boggles that they have millions of paying members. If everybody quit the Catholic Church, they wouldn't need priests.

27th March 2010, 04:52 PM	#23
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by geni There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews. . The opportunities are limited, with the minimum age restrictions on military service.

27th March 2010, 06:17 PM	#24
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by geni There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews. I wasn't aware that submariners were obliged to be celibate for their whole lives.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

27th March 2010, 07:30 PM	#25
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,557	Originally Posted by Sledge I wasn't aware that submariners were obliged to be celibate for their whole lives. I wasn't aware that spending months from any memeber of the oposite sex provided typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure.

27th March 2010, 07:32 PM	#26
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,557	Originally Posted by I Ratant . The opportunities are limited, with the minimum age restrictions on military service. I'm not aware of any branch of the US armed forces where there isn't at least passing contact with civilian children from time to time.

27th March 2010, 07:36 PM	#27
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by geni I wasn't aware that spending months from any memeber of the oposite sex provided typical, socially acceptable sexual pleasure. You do know that Catholic priests aren't given leave every couple of months to go home to the wife? It's just, and you're going to be so embarrassed when you realise, you're comparing people who sometimes don't have the opportunity to have sex for a few months at a time with people who are forbidden to ever have sex at all.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

27th March 2010, 10:41 PM	#28
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,650	Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper Which is why it is a mystery to me why the Catholic church still wields so much power. Here we have an organization that is systematically covering up child abuse, punishing victims for speaking out, and holding on to employees when they are caught raping kids. Imagine if a local boarding school was caught doing the same thing. I just read today that 98% of catholics in Australia don't go to mass. The number of catholics will diminish each generation, at least in the first world.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

28th March 2010, 02:20 AM	#29
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,557	Originally Posted by Sledge You do know that Catholic priests aren't given leave every couple of months to go home to the wife? It's just, and you're going to be so embarrassed when you realise, you're comparing people who sometimes don't have the opportunity to have sex for a few months at a time with people who are forbidden to ever have sex at all. Impressive goalpost moving there. In any case no amount of goalpost moving changes the fact there is no evidence to show that celibacy has a causative effect on pedophilia.

28th March 2010, 02:24 AM	#30
JJM 777 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 3,175	Originally Posted by geni There is absolutely no evidence that this happens. For example no evidence of hightened levels of pedophia amoung say submarine crews. There is statistical evidence of higher rates of gay behaviour in single-sex circumstances, such as prisons. No, I will not bother to find links for that evidence, my lifestyle is too busy and too heterosexual and too unCatholic.
	Last edited by JJM 777; 28th March 2010 at 02:25 AM.

28th March 2010, 03:35 AM	#31
Wrathernaut Thinker Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 243	Originally Posted by geni I'm not aware of any branch of the US armed forces where there isn't at least passing contact with civilian children from time to time. My year in Iraq, I was within the "wire" the ENTIRE year (minus my 2-week R&R leave). I didn't see a single person under the age of 18. My current year elsewhere, if not for dropping people off at the airport, the situation is pretty much the same. As far as "No socially acceptable sexual pleasure" in the Armed Forces - personal sexual pleasure is downright socially acceptable, talk of it isn't exactly taboo, but it's always conducted in a private matter. Not so much for the Catholic world.
Wrathernaut Thinker Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 243

28th March 2010, 08:15 AM	#32
Sun Countess Appearance of intelligence Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 3,176	Originally Posted by Sledge you're comparing people who sometimes don't have the opportunity to have sex for a few months at a time with people who are forbidden to ever have sex at all. It's not forbidden for them to have sex. Nobody is forcing anybody to marry a church instead of a person, effectively taking a vow of celibacy. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay a priest against their will. And nobody is even forcing priests who have sex with women, children, or other men to leave their positions or divorce the church. A heterosexual priest can have sex with all the women he wants, including prostitutes, the same as any husband can cheat on his wife. Where a wife may kick out a husband for adultery, the church will probably agree to counselling with a straying "spouse." Same thing for homosexual priests, only easier access to other men, and no surprise pregnancies. Priests don't become pedophiles because they are forbidden from having adult sex; pedophiles become priests because they think a religious life will cure their sinful desires. These men don't want adult relationships. If a heterosexual man wants to have regular sexual contact with women, he doesn't have to become a priest. If he becomes a priest anyway (mama always wanted a priest in the family!) and feels he's not able to find a willing woman to cheat with, he's not going to be drawn into the arms of a young boy. That's not a proper substitute. Statistic pulled from thin air, but I'd guess over 90% of priests are homosexuals or pedophiles, who are drawn to the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires.

28th March 2010, 08:16 AM	#33
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by geni Impressive goalpost moving there. Nope, you're going to have to explain what goalposts have been moved. Or you could just acknowledge that you threw out a poor analogy without thinking about it. Probably less shame in that than continuing to defend a ridiculous position, but it's your call.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

28th March 2010, 08:35 AM	#34
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Sun Countess It's not forbidden for them to have sex. Nobody is forcing anybody to marry a church instead of a person, effectively taking a vow of celibacy. Nobody is forcing anybody to stay a priest against their will. And nobody is even forcing priests who have sex with women, children, or other men to leave their positions or divorce the church. A heterosexual priest can have sex with all the women he wants, including prostitutes, the same as any husband can cheat on his wife. Where a wife may kick out a husband for adultery, the church will probably agree to counselling with a straying "spouse." Same thing for homosexual priests, only easier access to other men, and no surprise pregnancies. Priests don't become pedophiles because they are forbidden from having adult sex; pedophiles become priests because they think a religious life will cure their sinful desires. These men don't want adult relationships. If a heterosexual man wants to have regular sexual contact with women, he doesn't have to become a priest. If he becomes a priest anyway (mama always wanted a priest in the family!) and feels he's not able to find a willing woman to cheat with, he's not going to be drawn into the arms of a young boy. That's not a proper substitute. Statistic pulled from thin air, but I'd guess over 90% of priests are homosexuals or pedophiles, who are drawn to the priesthood in an attempt to stifle their natural desires. They don´t necessarily do it to stifle their desires... they could just as well do it because becoming a priest means they get easy and plentiful access to victims, and their employer will help them keep their crimes hidden and get off free if they ever get caught.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

28th March 2010, 09:13 AM	#35
Sun Countess Appearance of intelligence Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 3,176	Originally Posted by Chaos They don´t necessarily do it to stifle their desires... they could just as well do it because becoming a priest means they get easy and plentiful access to victims, and their employer will help them keep their crimes hidden and get off free if they ever get caught. That too. My main point is that the men involved are pedophiles before they become priests. The priesthood rules on celibacy don't turn a heterosexual man into a pedophile. (Or a homosexual one.)