10% on cider or not

geni · 7th April 2010, 12:35 PM

So the torries have said they are not going to increase the tax on cider. Aside from the problem of how they are going to pay for this the continueing low tax on cider only continues to encourage the production of low quality "ciders" in order to get the best alcohol to price ratio.

Darat · 7th April 2010, 12:37 PM

Anyway the wind blows....

Undesired Walrus · 7th April 2010, 01:12 PM

Low cost/high strength cider is simply disgraceful, deliberately designed to encourage alcoholism. It's evil.

geni · 7th April 2010, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Low cost/high strength cider is simply disgraceful, deliberately designed to encourage alcoholism. It's evil.

Yes but has anyone over the age of 18 ever drunk it unironicaly?

Darat · 7th April 2010, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Yes but has anyone over the age of 18 ever drunk it unironicaly?

When I lived in Manchester the local off-licence and general store used to let people swap their milk tokens for cider - so yes, lots.

Undesired Walrus · 7th April 2010, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Yes but has anyone over the age of 18 ever drunk it unironicaly?

It's the preferred drink of alcoholics on low income. Take K Cider or White Lightning for example.

andyandy · 7th April 2010, 02:31 PM

The tories are unashamed populists....

A better proposal would be a minimum per unit price on all alcohol - with proceeds ringfenced and going towards alcohol related expenditure on NHS/policing.

This would

1) Help fund the cost to society of alcohol
2) Help to eliminate the ridiculously cheap white lightening and other alcoholic friendly drinks
3) Help the dying pub industry by even-ing up the differential between pub price and supermarket price

It's a no brainer. Will it happen? No chance.

Childlike Empress · 7th April 2010, 03:45 PM

What ratio are we talking about? In Germany you get a liter of pure alcohol in the form of (choice depending on your level of alcoholic professionalism) cheapest beer, wine or schnaps for around 13€, which is scandalous and does a lot of harm.

To compare it to other countries, I found an interesting pdf about affordability of alcohol in EU countries. It seems to be some years old and the numbers for prices in Germany are much too high.

They use a measurement inspired by the famous Big Mac Index, the [alc]/Big Mac ratio. See table on page one. I don't like the categories they use, so i made up my own, comparing the price of 219g alcohol to that of a (219g) Bic Mac.

Which is around 13*0,219/0,789[kg/l]/3.3 = 1,09(!) WMNIKMAT*

* "Was man nicht isst, kann man auch trinken" ... proverb ... What you don't eat, you can drink.

geni · 7th April 2010, 03:53 PM

Well if you are prepared to drink white strike then it works out at about £13.33 per litre of ethanol.

funk de fino · 7th April 2010, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by geni

So the torries have said they are not going to increase the tax on cider. Aside from the problem of how they are going to pay for this the continueing low tax on cider only continues to encourage the production of low quality "ciders" in order to get the best alcohol to price ratio.

They cannot buy my vote even though I am a drinker of cider. Not the high strength guff however.

Childlike Empress · 7th April 2010, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Well if you are prepared to drink white strike then it works out at about £13.33 per litre of ethanol.

And what does a Big Mac cost?

Pardalis · 7th April 2010, 04:19 PM

They have to be careful, they might actually cause a revolution for real.

Alcohol is pretty much the only thing that will push people into action.

Undesired Walrus · 7th April 2010, 04:37 PM

Consider that you can get a three litre bottle of cider for around £2 with a strength of around 5.5%. If you are an alcoholic, and consume just two of those bottles a day, that's around 30 units of alcohol, 26 above your recommended intake. You're less than a fiver out of pocket for two bottles.

The manufacturers are simply vicious people, tailoring drinks to low income alcoholics.

Childlike Empress · 7th April 2010, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

And what does a Big Mac cost?

Ok, according to the just published Big Mac Index 2010 it's $3.48/£2.29. So that works out to a modest ratio of 1,62 WMNIKMAT for the cider. Prost Mahlzeit, Germany!

fuelair · 7th April 2010, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by geni

So the torries have said they are not going to increase the tax on cider. Aside from the problem of how they are going to pay for this the continueing low tax on cider only continues to encourage the production of low quality "ciders" in order to get the best alcohol to price ratio.

What kind of rectum would want to drink low-quality cider - unless forced into it by poverty.

Beerina · 9th April 2010, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by geni

So the torries have said they are not going to increase the tax on cider. Aside from the problem of how they are going to pay for this the continueing low tax on cider only continues to encourage the production of low quality "ciders" in order to get the best alcohol to price ratio.

Wouldn't increasing the tax make the pressure to make low-quality product even greater? They'd still want to reach the same market, and their current profit ratio won't cut it as well due to the additional fee by the government.

Not saying it's not necessarily a good thing to do, but I don't think it would increase the quality at all, rather the reverse.

Cigarettes are very expensive in the US due to federal and state taxes (which are outrageous on them.) People struggle to buy the absolute cheapest cigarettes possible, still less than $5 per pack (not per carton.)

geni · 9th April 2010, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Wouldn't increasing the tax make the pressure to make low-quality product even greater? They'd still want to reach the same market, and their current profit ratio won't cut it as well due to the additional fee by the government.

Not saying it's not necessarily a good thing to do, but I don't think it would increase the quality at all, rather the reverse.

The problem is that the tax on cider is lower than it is for any other way of buying ethanol other than methylated spirits. If the tax were increased then it's likey cider would become less of a focus for producing the cheapest drink.

Soapy Sam · 13th April 2010, 12:25 AM

As a lifelong cider drinker (my grannie was from Somerset- it's a genetic requirement), I think you're a bunch of elitist, wine bar snobs.
My vote is on sale to any party commmitting to CUT the price of Weston's Organic by 3p a bottle.

Damien Evans · 14th April 2010, 09:50 PM

What is the reasoning behind the low tax on Cider?

Policenaut · 14th April 2010, 11:34 PM

So is cider basically the equivalent of malt liquor in the US?

As an aside how is Woodchuck Amber on the scale of ciders? I believe that is the only one I've ever drank and it tastes good to me.

Soapy Sam · 14th April 2010, 11:55 PM

I suspect it wasn't taxed heavily as it wasn't produced on anything like the scale of beer. In recent years- partly because of the low tax, popularity has risen and the producers have started making many targeted "ciders"- pear and other fruit for example- aimed at women and younger drinkers.

I've beentold there are tax advantages for farmers growing apples, but that flooding of the UK market by European imports has led to growers selling to cider producers rather than to stores

It also seems easier to produce storable high alcohol cider than beer, - I don't know if this is true, but 7% is common in bottled versions- I've seen 9 on draught. This stuff is drunk by the pint, remember. You can get drunk fast & cheap.
I've been a lifelong cider fan, though not of the cheap & cheerful stuff. I like the fact we have more quality cider available these days. In bottle, it is a bit cheaper than beer, though not hugely.

7th April 2010, 12:35 PM	#1
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,564	10% on cider or not So the torries have said they are not going to increase the tax on cider. Aside from the problem of how they are going to pay for this the continueing low tax on cider only continues to encourage the production of low quality "ciders" in order to get the best alcohol to price ratio.

7th April 2010, 12:37 PM	#2
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,771	Anyway the wind blows....
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

7th April 2010, 01:12 PM	#3
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,886	Low cost/high strength cider is simply disgraceful, deliberately designed to encourage alcoholism. It's evil.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

7th April 2010, 01:22 PM	#5
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,771	Originally Posted by geni Yes but has anyone over the age of 18 ever drunk it unironicaly? When I lived in Manchester the local off-licence and general store used to let people swap their milk tokens for cider - so yes, lots.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

7th April 2010, 02:03 PM	#6
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,886	Originally Posted by geni Yes but has anyone over the age of 18 ever drunk it unironicaly? It's the preferred drink of alcoholics on low income. Take K Cider or White Lightning for example.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

7th April 2010, 01:16 PM	#4
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,564	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Low cost/high strength cider is simply disgraceful, deliberately designed to encourage alcoholism. It's evil. Yes but has anyone over the age of 18 ever drunk it unironicaly?

7th April 2010, 02:31 PM	#7
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	The tories are unashamed populists.... A better proposal would be a minimum per unit price on all alcohol - with proceeds ringfenced and going towards alcohol related expenditure on NHS/policing. This would 1) Help fund the cost to society of alcohol 2) Help to eliminate the ridiculously cheap white lightening and other alcoholic friendly drinks 3) Help the dying pub industry by even-ing up the differential between pub price and supermarket price It's a no brainer. Will it happen? No chance.
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

7th April 2010, 03:45 PM	#8
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,835	What ratio are we talking about? In Germany you get a liter of pure alcohol in the form of (choice depending on your level of alcoholic professionalism) cheapest beer, wine or schnaps for around 13€, which is scandalous and does a lot of harm. To compare it to other countries, I found an interesting pdf about affordability of alcohol in EU countries. It seems to be some years old and the numbers for prices in Germany are much too high. They use a measurement inspired by the famous Big Mac Index, the [alc]/Big Mac ratio. See table on page one. I don't like the categories they use, so i made up my own, comparing the price of 219g alcohol to that of a (219g) Bic Mac. Which is around 130,219/0,789[kg/l]/3.3 = 1,09(!) WMNIKMAT * "Was man nicht isst, kann man auch trinken" ... proverb ... What you don't eat, you can drink.
	__________________ Breaking The Set Last edited by Childlike Empress; 7th April 2010 at 03:48 PM.

7th April 2010, 03:53 PM	#9
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,564	Well if you are prepared to drink white strike then it works out at about £13.33 per litre of ethanol.

7th April 2010, 04:06 PM	#10
funk de fino Dreaming of unicorns Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alba Posts: 10,790	Originally Posted by geni So the torries have said they are not going to increase the tax on cider. Aside from the problem of how they are going to pay for this the continueing low tax on cider only continues to encourage the production of low quality "ciders" in order to get the best alcohol to price ratio. They cannot buy my vote even though I am a drinker of cider. Not the high strength guff however.
	__________________ Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase. Christopher 7 - There is no need to contact them for conformation. That is just a denial tactic

7th April 2010, 04:08 PM	#11
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,835	Originally Posted by geni Well if you are prepared to drink white strike then it works out at about £13.33 per litre of ethanol. And what does a Big Mac cost?
	__________________ Breaking The Set

7th April 2010, 04:19 PM	#12
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	They have to be careful, they might actually cause a revolution for real. Alcohol is pretty much the only thing that will push people into action.

7th April 2010, 04:37 PM	#13
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,886	Consider that you can get a three litre bottle of cider for around £2 with a strength of around 5.5%. If you are an alcoholic, and consume just two of those bottles a day, that's around 30 units of alcohol, 26 above your recommended intake. You're less than a fiver out of pocket for two bottles. The manufacturers are simply vicious people, tailoring drinks to low income alcoholics.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945

7th April 2010, 04:47 PM	#14
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 7,835	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress And what does a Big Mac cost? Ok, according to the just published Big Mac Index 2010 it's $3.48/£2.29. So that works out to a modest ratio of 1,62 WMNIKMAT for the cider. Prost Mahlzeit, Germany!
	__________________ Breaking The Set

7th April 2010, 07:04 PM	#15
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932	Originally Posted by geni So the torries have said they are not going to increase the tax on cider. Aside from the problem of how they are going to pay for this the continueing low tax on cider only continues to encourage the production of low quality "ciders" in order to get the best alcohol to price ratio. What kind of rectum would want to drink low-quality cider - unless forced into it by poverty.
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,932	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

9th April 2010, 07:43 AM	#16
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by geni So the torries have said they are not going to increase the tax on cider. Aside from the problem of how they are going to pay for this the continueing low tax on cider only continues to encourage the production of low quality "ciders" in order to get the best alcohol to price ratio. Wouldn't increasing the tax make the pressure to make low-quality product even greater? They'd still want to reach the same market, and their current profit ratio won't cut it as well due to the additional fee by the government. Not saying it's not necessarily a good thing to do, but I don't think it would increase the quality at all, rather the reverse. Cigarettes are very expensive in the US due to federal and state taxes (which are outrageous on them.) People struggle to buy the absolute cheapest cigarettes possible, still less than $5 per pack (not per carton.)
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 9th April 2010 at 07:44 AM.

9th April 2010, 10:25 AM	#17
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,564	Originally Posted by Beerina Wouldn't increasing the tax make the pressure to make low-quality product even greater? They'd still want to reach the same market, and their current profit ratio won't cut it as well due to the additional fee by the government. Not saying it's not necessarily a good thing to do, but I don't think it would increase the quality at all, rather the reverse. The problem is that the tax on cider is lower than it is for any other way of buying ethanol other than methylated spirits. If the tax were increased then it's likey cider would become less of a focus for producing the cheapest drink.

13th April 2010, 12:25 AM	#18
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	As a lifelong cider drinker (my grannie was from Somerset- it's a genetic requirement), I think you're a bunch of elitist, wine bar snobs. My vote is on sale to any party commmitting to CUT the price of Weston's Organic by 3p a bottle.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

14th April 2010, 09:50 PM	#19
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,286	What is the reasoning behind the low tax on Cider?
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

14th April 2010, 11:34 PM	#20
Policenaut Infidel Defiler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Shadow Moses Island Posts: 2,193	So is cider basically the equivalent of malt liquor in the US? As an aside how is Woodchuck Amber on the scale of ciders? I believe that is the only one I've ever drank and it tastes good to me.

14th April 2010, 11:55 PM	#21
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	I suspect it wasn't taxed heavily as it wasn't produced on anything like the scale of beer. In recent years- partly because of the low tax, popularity has risen and the producers have started making many targeted "ciders"- pear and other fruit for example- aimed at women and younger drinkers. I've beentold there are tax advantages for farmers growing apples, but that flooding of the UK market by European imports has led to growers selling to cider producers rather than to stores It also seems easier to produce storable high alcohol cider than beer, - I don't know if this is true, but 7% is common in bottled versions- I've seen 9 on draught. This stuff is drunk by the pint, remember. You can get drunk fast & cheap. I've been a lifelong cider fan, though not of the cheap & cheerful stuff. I like the fact we have more quality cider available these days. In bottle, it is a bit cheaper than beer, though not hugely.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Last edited by Soapy Sam; 14th April 2010 at 11:59 PM.