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E.J.Armstrong · 12th April 2010, 04:35 AM

If you want to see apartheid in action read on. If you don't, look away now.

'...Israel is set to impose a military order which rights groups say could see tens of thousands of Palestinians deported from the occupied West Bank. ...'

and

'..."The orders are worded so broadly such as theoretically allowing the military to empty the West Bank of almost all its Palestinian inhabitants," a letter written by human rights organisation HaMoked and signed by 10 other groups to Defence Minister Ehud Barak said. ...'

From
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8614908.stm

Israeli human rights groups are justifiably deeply upset about this latest bout of ethnic cleansing by the apartheid government of Israel.

It has been clear for decades that the official Israeli government pogrom against Palestinians was designed to eventually ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Palestine. This latest action clearly shows the apartheid basis of the Israeli governments behaviour. Every now and then the Israel government hurries the process along by massacring or supporting the massacre of hundreds of innocent men women and children such as Operation Cast White Phosphorus in Gaza and the massacre at Sabra and Shatila.

Please support all the Israeli human rights organisations who are bravely trying to stop these latest human rights abuses and write to your government to get them to demand a stop to the disgusting behaviour of the apartheid government of Israel and its military wing, the IDF.

Darth Rotor · 12th April 2010, 05:22 AM

Quote:

It has been clear for decades that the official Israeli government pogrom against Palestinians was designed to eventually ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Palestine.

This leads me to believe that the pogrom is being run by some real incompetents. Back in the old days, in Russia or Poland, pogroms didn't take but a week or so.

Blundering Israelis, can't even run a decent pogrom. Amazing they can keep the electric grip going.

DR

Thunder · 12th April 2010, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

It has been clear for decades that the official Israeli government pogrom against Palestinians was designed to eventually ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Palestine.

and yet, the Arab population of Israel has grown at a steady 3% a year, since 1949. 200,000 in 1949 to 1.3 million in 2008.

fascinating pogrom this be.

Darat · 12th April 2010, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

and yet, the Arab population of Israel has grown at a steady 3% a year, since 1949. 200,000 in 1949 to 1.3 million in 2008.

fascinating pogrom this be.

Give them a chance, these things take some time to get into gear!

Darth Rotor · 12th April 2010, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Give them a chance, these things take some time to get into gear!

Maybe their klatch needs adjustment ...

Tricky · 12th April 2010, 12:58 PM

A good thing too. Some of those ethnics have a pretty funky smell.

Eddie Dane · 12th April 2010, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

It has been clear for decades that the official Israeli government pogrom against Palestinians was designed to eventually ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Palestine. This latest action clearly shows the apartheid basis of the Israeli governments behaviour. Every now and then the Israel government hurries the process along by massacring or supporting the massacre of hundreds of innocent men women and children such as Operation Cast White Phosphorus in Gaza and the massacre at Sabra and Shatila.

Yes they are clearly stepping up their program of ethnic cleansing as this example from 1982 shows.

cwalner · 12th April 2010, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

If you want to see apartheid in action read on. If you don't, look away now.

'...Israel is set to impose a military order which rights groups say could see tens of thousands of Palestinians deported from the occupied West Bank. ...'

and

'..."The orders are worded so broadly such as theoretically allowing the military to empty the West Bank of almost all its Palestinian inhabitants," a letter written by human rights organisation HaMoked and signed by 10 other groups to Defence Minister Ehud Barak said. ...'

From
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8614908.stm

C'mon EJ, you are not up to your game. Even your mined quotes here equivocate. I have seen much better from you in the past, and I expect to see much better from you in the future.

Donal · 12th April 2010, 06:24 PM

His troll fu is weak. Even parky won't jump on his bandwagon.

WildCat · 12th April 2010, 06:43 PM

Pip pip.

Jono · 13th April 2010, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

and yet, the Arab population of Israel has grown at a steady 3% a year, since 1949. 200,000 in 1949 to 1.3 million in 2008.

fascinating pogrom this be.

Yes that's a substantial baby-boom. However is this taking into account that Israel has gotten a whole lot bigger since -49 too?

Doctor Evil · 13th April 2010, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by WhiteLion

Yes that's a substantial baby-boom. However is this taking into account that Israel has gotten a whole lot bigger since -49 too?

Umm, no.

Archer17 · 13th April 2010, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

...Please support all the Israeli human rights organisations who are bravely trying to stop these latest human rights abuses and write to your government to get them to demand a stop to the disgusting behaviour of the apartheid government of Israel and its military wing, the IDF.

I think I'll wait and see if Israel actually deports tens of thousands of Palestinians first.

GlennB · 13th April 2010, 11:46 AM

When I were a lad we had proper pogroms. I remember the pogrom of 1932, it were a terrible winter it were ...... <blather drool dribble wibble drone>

Jono · 14th April 2010, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Evil

Umm, no.

I just asked since successive expansion of territory would mean new 'arabic' ethnic inclusion, and the proportionately increase of a population would coherently need to be tweaked with that variable in consideration. But in this context I do not imagine it would be easy to approximate.

Doctor Evil · 14th April 2010, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteLion

I just asked since successive expansion of territory would mean new 'arabic' ethnic inclusion, and the proportionately increase of a population would coherently need to be tweaked with that variable in consideration. But in this context I do not imagine it would be easy to approximate.

Well, there was exactly one expansion of territory, so there is no point of talking about successive expansions. In any case the point is moot. Parky's numbers were about Israeli Arabs, namely the number of Arab citizens in Israel and not the West Bank or Gaza.

Polaris · 15th April 2010, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Tricky

A good thing too. Some of those ethnics have a pretty funky smell.

Vaguely like almonds and cordite...weird.

Doctor Evil · 15th April 2010, 07:47 AM

I just encountered the following blog post which suggest that there is nothing in this story:

Quote:

If there's anything at all about the story that's remotely surprising, it's the ease with which it can be disproved. Any reasonable observer of Israel knew immediately that the story couldn't be true as told; the fact that its originators were one of our radical Left NGOs (Hamoked) reinforced this gut feeling. Elder of Ziyon, an anonymous blogger with no public position, sent an e-mail to the appropriate official, who explained that the reality is more or less the opposite of that reported by Haaretz. Here's the full response, though I recommend following the link to read Elder's important comments about the case:

1. The new military order was signed 6 months ago.

2. There are no changes to the repatriation system or the authority/means to repatriate illegal residents in Judea and Samaria. The only difference is that now the process includes a judiciary review.

3. The decision to establish a judiciary committee to review the administrative process of repatriation was taken in response to the Israeli High Court of Justice (בג"ץ) decision that there should be judicial oversight.

4. Any illegal resident who stands to be repatriated will be brought before the judicial committee within 8 days of receiving the order, they will have the right to legal council, and will be able to appeal the judicial decision to the high court.

5. When making decisions about whether or not to repatriate an individual, the administrative and the judicial committees consider family ties.

6. Currently there are very few illegal Palestinian residents in Judea and Samaria - over the past several years, as a goodwill gesture to the Palestinian Authority, the Israeli government has approved an amnesty for nearly all of the 32,000 illegal residents whose names were submitted to the population registry by the Palestinian authorities.

7. Since the beginning of 2010, there have only been 5 Gazans who have been repatriated to Gaza.

8. The current system allows Israeli authorities to arrest, detain and deport illegal residents (specifically those who came in on a tourist visa and decided to stay) - these are the same powers that every sovereign nation in the world possess. The establishment of the Judicial Committee to oversee the process is the only change. (Bold: Elder; italics: me)

So what are we to make of all this:

1. A lie about Israel will cross the world in minutes, the truth won't travel at all.
2. Fringe elements in Israel are eager to lie.
3. Haaretz is courting the fringes (and hundreds of its subscribers have canceled their subscriptions this week. We don't know how many hundreds, it may be many, and their pool of subscribers was not large to begin with).
4. While loudly trumpeting the importance of a free press in a democracy and its own centrality in it, the level of journalism at Haaretz is lower than that of one private blogger.
5. The official agencies who might have confronted this lie, didn't. They waited for a blogger to ask them. Hamoked and Haaretz are malicious; officialdom is incompetent; the country gets by in spite of them all.

Consistently lying about Jews eventually gets people killed. This has been the pattern for millennia; the difference is that now the casualties come from both sides of the lies. You'd think this might matter to the people who propagate the lies, but you'd be wrong.

Jono · 16th April 2010, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Doctor Evil

Well, there was exactly one expansion of territory, so there is no point of talking about successive expansions.

Yes, the borders of -49 only changed in the increasive after -67 correct?

Quote:

. In any case the point is moot. Parky's numbers were about Israeli Arabs, namely the number of Arab citizens in Israel and not the West Bank or Gaza.

I don't think I understand. Are we assuming by default that Parky's number only included Israel's core from -49 to contemporary figures of total Israeli population, as opposed to a figure including occupied/gained land post-49 by Israel, included? If that's the case, that might have been something obvious for everyone else, but missed it I did as a specific.

Skeptic · 16th April 2010, 11:56 AM

Quote:

1. A lie about Israel will cross the world in minutes, the truth won't travel at all.
2. Fringe elements in Israel are eager to lie.

Surpraz, surpraz, surpraz.

Quote:

3. Haaretz is courting the fringes

I would put it stronger: Haaretz isn't just courting the fringes, it is the fringes, since in many cases -- like in the case of the Haaretz journalist recently accused of espionage -- "Haaretz journalist" and "member of fringe anti-Israeli group" are simply the same person.

Skeptic · 16th April 2010, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by WhiteLion

Yes, the borders of -49 only changed in the increasive after -67 correct?

One exception: in 1956 Israel, together with France and England, were involved in the Suez crisis. But then Israel gave back everything within a very short time and there was no population transfer in either direction.

Doctor Evil · 16th April 2010, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteLion

Yes, the borders of -49 only changed in the increasive after -67 correct?

Israel's borders (or cease fire lines) were indeed established 1949 following its war of independence. Since then, the only time where Israel gained territory and held it was in 1967. (I oversimplify here a bit, but this has no effect on the point being made.)

Quote:

I don't think I understand. Are we assuming by default that Parky's number only included Israel's core from -49 to contemporary figures of total Israeli population, as opposed to a figure including occupied/gained land post-49 by Israel, included? If that's the case, that might have been something obvious for everyone else, but missed it I did as a specific.

Parky's numbers are only for Israeli Arabs - Arabs which live in the borders of pre 1967 Israel and are Israeli citizens. They do not include Palestinians in either Gaza or the West Bank. Otherwise, the numbers would have been much larger.

Doctor Evil · 16th April 2010, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

One exception: in 1956 Israel, together with France and England, were involved in the Suez crisis. But then Israel gave back everything within a very short time and there was no population transfer in either direction.

More than one, since Israel also controlled some parts of Lebanon between 1984-2000 but, again, this has no relation to the Parky's point.

Jono · 18th April 2010, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Evil

Parky's numbers are only for Israeli Arabs - Arabs which live in the borders of pre 1967 Israel and are Israeli citizens. They do not include Palestinians in either Gaza or the West Bank. Otherwise, the numbers would have been much larger.

Ah yes. Does the formentioned figure take into account migrations thereof then, i.e from Israel to Gaza or the West Bank, and/or vice versa? (wether arabic or jewish). I have no idea if there's been any substantial one at that from or to these territories, or if (or to which extent) people who have resettled to Israel have been naturalised so to speak. But I imagine it could potentially be a necessary variable of the given figures.

E.J.Armstrong · 19th April 2010, 09:00 AM

'..Israel's Defence Minister Ehud Barak has said Israel must, eventually, allow the Palestinians to rule themselves.
In an interview with Army Radio he said in the future there would be a separate Palestinian state "whether you like it or not". ...'

and

'..."The world isn't willing to accept, and we won't change that in 2010, the expectation that Israel will rule another people for decades more," he said. ...'

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8629158.stm

Israeli politicians do recognise that the world is not going to put up with the apartheid behaviour of successive Israeli government any longer and is not willing to accept the 60 year pogrom that successive extreme right wing governments of Israel have waged and are waging against the innocent people of Palestine.

What Barack needs to recognise that the decision is no longer for the apartheid government of Israel to make. The world knows Israel will never obey the law will ignore the apartheid government of Israel soon by recognising the 1967 borders as the borders of an independent Palestine and will defend those borders against the apartheid state of Israel.

The world knows Israel will never improve its appalling human rights record or stop committing war crimes off its own volition.

Darth Rotor · 19th April 2010, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

'..Israel's Defence Minister Ehud Barak has said Israel must, eventually, allow the Palestinians to rule themselves.
In an interview with Army Radio he said in the future there would be a separate Palestinian state "whether you like it or not". ...'

and

'..."The world isn't willing to accept, and we won't change that in 2010, the expectation that Israel will rule another people for decades more," he said. ...'

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8629158.stm

Israeli politicians do recognise that the world is not going to put up with the apartheid behaviour of successive Israeli government any longer and is not willing to accept the 60 year pogrom that successive extreme right wing governments of Israel have waged and are waging against the innocent people of Palestine.

What Barack needs to recognise that the decision is no longer for the apartheid government of Israel to make. The world knows Israel will never obey the law will ignore the apartheid government of Israel soon by recognising the 1967 borders as the borders of an independent Palestine and will defend those borders against the apartheid state of Israel.

The world knows Israel will never improve its appalling human rights record or stop committing war crimes off its own volition.

I recommended to the mods that this thread and this one http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=172737

that you began, with pogrom as your descriptive, be merged.

As to the opening sentence in your post, the Defense Minister's remarks make some sense. He seems to have a very pragmatic view of political realities.

DR

garethdjb · 19th April 2010, 09:25 AM

Pogrom. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Doctor Evil · 19th April 2010, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by WhiteLion

Ah yes. Does the formentioned figure take into account migrations thereof then, i.e from Israel to Gaza or the West Bank, and/or vice versa? (wether arabic or jewish). I have no idea if there's been any substantial one at that from or to these territories, or if (or to which extent) people who have resettled to Israel have been naturalised so to speak. But I imagine it could potentially be a necessary variable of the given figures.

There was no substantial migration. In 1948-49 some tens of thousands of Palestinians managed to return to their homes, but these are already included in Parky's initial estimate ot the number of Israeli Arabs.

There was very little migration between WB and Gaza and Israel, as the Arabs living in the territories are not Israeli citizens. There are exceptions, such as people who got citizenship by marrying to Arab citizens, or the Palestinians from east Jerusalem who have chosen to take Israeli citizenship. Both are not large enough to affect Parky's point.

The Central Scrutinizer · 19th April 2010, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong

If you want to see apartheid in action read on. If you don't, look away now.

I looked away. And yet, I'm dying to know what you wrote. Quite the conundrum, isn't it?

bigjelmapro · 20th April 2010, 12:09 AM

Hasn't this disinformation ploy gone on for long enough and hasn't this specific issue been addressed in this thread already? : http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=172657

But I'm sure we can create 20 or so more of the same threads that state the same thing....

12th April 2010, 04:35 AM	#1
E.J.Armstrong Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,825	Israel steps up ethnic cleansing If you want to see apartheid in action read on. If you don't, look away now. '...Israel is set to impose a military order which rights groups say could see tens of thousands of Palestinians deported from the occupied West Bank. ...' and '..."The orders are worded so broadly such as theoretically allowing the military to empty the West Bank of almost all its Palestinian inhabitants," a letter written by human rights organisation HaMoked and signed by 10 other groups to Defence Minister Ehud Barak said. ...' From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8614908.stm Israeli human rights groups are justifiably deeply upset about this latest bout of ethnic cleansing by the apartheid government of Israel. It has been clear for decades that the official Israeli government pogrom against Palestinians was designed to eventually ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Palestine. This latest action clearly shows the apartheid basis of the Israeli governments behaviour. Every now and then the Israel government hurries the process along by massacring or supporting the massacre of hundreds of innocent men women and children such as Operation Cast White Phosphorus in Gaza and the massacre at Sabra and Shatila. Please support all the Israeli human rights organisations who are bravely trying to stop these latest human rights abuses and write to your government to get them to demand a stop to the disgusting behaviour of the apartheid government of Israel and its military wing, the IDF.
	__________________ “Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy. Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza

12th April 2010, 05:22 AM	#2
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,371	Quote: It has been clear for decades that the official Israeli government pogrom against Palestinians was designed to eventually ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Palestine. This leads me to believe that the pogrom is being run by some real incompetents. Back in the old days, in Russia or Poland, pogroms didn't take but a week or so. Blundering Israelis, can't even run a decent pogrom. Amazing they can keep the electric grip going. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

12th April 2010, 08:18 AM	#4
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,974	Originally Posted by parky76 and yet, the Arab population of Israel has grown at a steady 3% a year, since 1949. 200,000 in 1949 to 1.3 million in 2008. fascinating pogrom this be. Give them a chance, these things take some time to get into gear!
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

12th April 2010, 08:32 AM	#5
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,371	Originally Posted by Darat Give them a chance, these things take some time to get into gear! Maybe their klatch needs adjustment ...
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

12th April 2010, 02:03 PM	#8
cwalner Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Deepest Darkest Indiana Posts: 5,754	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong If you want to see apartheid in action read on. If you don't, look away now. '...Israel is set to impose a military order which rights groups say could see tens of thousands of Palestinians deported from the occupied West Bank. ...' and '..."The orders are worded so broadly such as theoretically allowing the military to empty the West Bank of almost all its Palestinian inhabitants," a letter written by human rights organisation HaMoked and signed by 10 other groups to Defence Minister Ehud Barak said. ...' From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8614908.stm C'mon EJ, you are not up to your game. Even your mined quotes here equivocate. I have seen much better from you in the past, and I expect to see much better from you in the future.
	__________________ Vecini - Inconceivable! Inigo - You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

12th April 2010, 08:17 AM	#3
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong It has been clear for decades that the official Israeli government pogrom against Palestinians was designed to eventually ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Palestine. and yet, the Arab population of Israel has grown at a steady 3% a year, since 1949. 200,000 in 1949 to 1.3 million in 2008. fascinating pogrom this be.

12th April 2010, 12:58 PM	#6
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,403	A good thing too. Some of those ethnics have a pretty funky smell.

12th April 2010, 01:06 PM	#7
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,479	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong It has been clear for decades that the official Israeli government pogrom against Palestinians was designed to eventually ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Palestine. This latest action clearly shows the apartheid basis of the Israeli governments behaviour. Every now and then the Israel government hurries the process along by massacring or supporting the massacre of hundreds of innocent men women and children such as Operation Cast White Phosphorus in Gaza and the massacre at Sabra and Shatila. Yes they are clearly stepping up their program of ethnic cleansing as this example from 1982 shows.

12th April 2010, 06:24 PM	#9
Donal Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 2,139	His troll fu is weak. Even parky won't jump on his bandwagon.

12th April 2010, 06:43 PM	#10
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,453	Pip pip.

13th April 2010, 08:54 AM	#11
Jono Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,613	Originally Posted by parky76 and yet, the Arab population of Israel has grown at a steady 3% a year, since 1949. 200,000 in 1949 to 1.3 million in 2008. fascinating pogrom this be. Yes that's a substantial baby-boom. However is this taking into account that Israel has gotten a whole lot bigger since -49 too?
	__________________ "I don't believe I ever saw an Oklahoman who wouldn't fight at the drop of a hat -- and frequently drop the hat himself." - Robert E. Howard

13th April 2010, 09:42 AM	#12
Doctor Evil Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Back home Posts: 1,971	Originally Posted by WhiteLion Yes that's a substantial baby-boom. However is this taking into account that Israel has gotten a whole lot bigger since -49 too? Umm, no.
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

13th April 2010, 10:12 AM	#13
Archer17 Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 167	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong ...Please support all the Israeli human rights organisations who are bravely trying to stop these latest human rights abuses and write to your government to get them to demand a stop to the disgusting behaviour of the apartheid government of Israel and its military wing, the IDF. I think I'll wait and see if Israel actually deports tens of thousands of Palestinians first.
Archer17 Thinker Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 167

13th April 2010, 11:46 AM	#14
GlennB Jellied eel and offal fancier Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia Posts: 9,203	When I were a lad we had proper pogroms. I remember the pogrom of 1932, it were a terrible winter it were ...... <blather drool dribble wibble drone>

14th April 2010, 01:53 PM	#15
Jono Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,613	Originally Posted by Doctor Evil Umm, no. I just asked since successive expansion of territory would mean new 'arabic' ethnic inclusion, and the proportionately increase of a population would coherently need to be tweaked with that variable in consideration. But in this context I do not imagine it would be easy to approximate.
	__________________ "I don't believe I ever saw an Oklahoman who wouldn't fight at the drop of a hat -- and frequently drop the hat himself." - Robert E. Howard

14th April 2010, 11:08 PM	#16
Doctor Evil Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Back home Posts: 1,971	Originally Posted by WhiteLion I just asked since successive expansion of territory would mean new 'arabic' ethnic inclusion, and the proportionately increase of a population would coherently need to be tweaked with that variable in consideration. But in this context I do not imagine it would be easy to approximate. Well, there was exactly one expansion of territory, so there is no point of talking about successive expansions. In any case the point is moot. Parky's numbers were about Israeli Arabs, namely the number of Arab citizens in Israel and not the West Bank or Gaza.
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

15th April 2010, 07:22 AM	#17
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,215	Originally Posted by Tricky A good thing too. Some of those ethnics have a pretty funky smell. Vaguely like almonds and cordite...weird.
Polaris Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 5,215	__________________ "There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Roy Moore of Alabama. The world would absolutely benefit by him being run over by any vehicle." - Lowpro

15th April 2010, 07:47 AM	#18
Doctor Evil Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Back home Posts: 1,971	I just encountered the following blog post which suggest that there is nothing in this story: Quote: If there's anything at all about the story that's remotely surprising, it's the ease with which it can be disproved. Any reasonable observer of Israel knew immediately that the story couldn't be true as told; the fact that its originators were one of our radical Left NGOs (Hamoked) reinforced this gut feeling. Elder of Ziyon, an anonymous blogger with no public position, sent an e-mail to the appropriate official, who explained that the reality is more or less the opposite of that reported by Haaretz. Here's the full response, though I recommend following the link to read Elder's important comments about the case: 1. The new military order was signed 6 months ago. 2. There are no changes to the repatriation system or the authority/means to repatriate illegal residents in Judea and Samaria. The only difference is that now the process includes a judiciary review. 3. The decision to establish a judiciary committee to review the administrative process of repatriation was taken in response to the Israeli High Court of Justice (בג"ץ) decision that there should be judicial oversight. 4. Any illegal resident who stands to be repatriated will be brought before the judicial committee within 8 days of receiving the order, they will have the right to legal council, and will be able to appeal the judicial decision to the high court. 5. When making decisions about whether or not to repatriate an individual, the administrative and the judicial committees consider family ties. 6. Currently there are very few illegal Palestinian residents in Judea and Samaria - over the past several years, as a goodwill gesture to the Palestinian Authority, the Israeli government has approved an amnesty for nearly all of the 32,000 illegal residents whose names were submitted to the population registry by the Palestinian authorities. 7. Since the beginning of 2010, there have only been 5 Gazans who have been repatriated to Gaza. 8. The current system allows Israeli authorities to arrest, detain and deport illegal residents (specifically those who came in on a tourist visa and decided to stay) - these are the same powers that every sovereign nation in the world possess. The establishment of the Judicial Committee to oversee the process is the only change. (Bold: Elder; italics: me) So what are we to make of all this: 1. A lie about Israel will cross the world in minutes, the truth won't travel at all. 2. Fringe elements in Israel are eager to lie. 3. Haaretz is courting the fringes (and hundreds of its subscribers have canceled their subscriptions this week. We don't know how many hundreds, it may be many, and their pool of subscribers was not large to begin with). 4. While loudly trumpeting the importance of a free press in a democracy and its own centrality in it, the level of journalism at Haaretz is lower than that of one private blogger. 5. The official agencies who might have confronted this lie, didn't. They waited for a blogger to ask them. Hamoked and Haaretz are malicious; officialdom is incompetent; the country gets by in spite of them all. Consistently lying about Jews eventually gets people killed. This has been the pattern for millennia; the difference is that now the casualties come from both sides of the lies. You'd think this might matter to the people who propagate the lies, but you'd be wrong.
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

16th April 2010, 11:44 AM	#19
Jono Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,613	Originally Posted by Doctor Evil Well, there was exactly one expansion of territory, so there is no point of talking about successive expansions. Yes, the borders of -49 only changed in the increasive after -67 correct? Quote: . In any case the point is moot. Parky's numbers were about Israeli Arabs, namely the number of Arab citizens in Israel and not the West Bank or Gaza. I don't think I understand. Are we assuming by default that Parky's number only included Israel's core from -49 to contemporary figures of total Israeli population, as opposed to a figure including occupied/gained land post-49 by Israel, included? If that's the case, that might have been something obvious for everyone else, but missed it I did as a specific.
	__________________ "I don't believe I ever saw an Oklahoman who wouldn't fight at the drop of a hat -- and frequently drop the hat himself." - Robert E. Howard Last edited by Jono; 16th April 2010 at 11:46 AM.

16th April 2010, 11:56 AM	#20
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Quote: 1. A lie about Israel will cross the world in minutes, the truth won't travel at all. 2. Fringe elements in Israel are eager to lie. Surpraz, surpraz, surpraz. Quote: 3. Haaretz is courting the fringes I would put it stronger: Haaretz isn't just courting the fringes, it is the fringes, since in many cases -- like in the case of the Haaretz journalist recently accused of espionage -- "Haaretz journalist" and "member of fringe anti-Israeli group" are simply the same person.

16th April 2010, 11:58 AM	#21
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	Originally Posted by WhiteLion Yes, the borders of -49 only changed in the increasive after -67 correct? One exception: in 1956 Israel, together with France and England, were involved in the Suez crisis. But then Israel gave back everything within a very short time and there was no population transfer in either direction.

16th April 2010, 12:11 PM	#22
Doctor Evil Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Back home Posts: 1,971	Originally Posted by WhiteLion Yes, the borders of -49 only changed in the increasive after -67 correct? Israel's borders (or cease fire lines) were indeed established 1949 following its war of independence. Since then, the only time where Israel gained territory and held it was in 1967. (I oversimplify here a bit, but this has no effect on the point being made.) Quote: I don't think I understand. Are we assuming by default that Parky's number only included Israel's core from -49 to contemporary figures of total Israeli population, as opposed to a figure including occupied/gained land post-49 by Israel, included? If that's the case, that might have been something obvious for everyone else, but missed it I did as a specific. Parky's numbers are only for Israeli Arabs - Arabs which live in the borders of pre 1967 Israel and are Israeli citizens. They do not include Palestinians in either Gaza or the West Bank. Otherwise, the numbers would have been much larger.
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

16th April 2010, 12:13 PM	#23
Doctor Evil Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Back home Posts: 1,971	Originally Posted by Skeptic One exception: in 1956 Israel, together with France and England, were involved in the Suez crisis. But then Israel gave back everything within a very short time and there was no population transfer in either direction. More than one, since Israel also controlled some parts of Lebanon between 1984-2000 but, again, this has no relation to the Parky's point.
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

18th April 2010, 07:27 PM	#24
Jono Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,613	Originally Posted by Doctor Evil Parky's numbers are only for Israeli Arabs - Arabs which live in the borders of pre 1967 Israel and are Israeli citizens. They do not include Palestinians in either Gaza or the West Bank. Otherwise, the numbers would have been much larger. Ah yes. Does the formentioned figure take into account migrations thereof then, i.e from Israel to Gaza or the West Bank, and/or vice versa? (wether arabic or jewish). I have no idea if there's been any substantial one at that from or to these territories, or if (or to which extent) people who have resettled to Israel have been naturalised so to speak. But I imagine it could potentially be a necessary variable of the given figures.
	__________________ "I don't believe I ever saw an Oklahoman who wouldn't fight at the drop of a hat -- and frequently drop the hat himself." - Robert E. Howard

19th April 2010, 09:00 AM	#25
E.J.Armstrong Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 3,825	Israeli politician admits futility of pogrom against Palestinians '..Israel's Defence Minister Ehud Barak has said Israel must, eventually, allow the Palestinians to rule themselves. In an interview with Army Radio he said in the future there would be a separate Palestinian state "whether you like it or not". ...' and '..."The world isn't willing to accept, and we won't change that in 2010, the expectation that Israel will rule another people for decades more," he said. ...' from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8629158.stm Israeli politicians do recognise that the world is not going to put up with the apartheid behaviour of successive Israeli government any longer and is not willing to accept the 60 year pogrom that successive extreme right wing governments of Israel have waged and are waging against the innocent people of Palestine. What Barack needs to recognise that the decision is no longer for the apartheid government of Israel to make. The world knows Israel will never obey the law will ignore the apartheid government of Israel soon by recognising the 1967 borders as the borders of an independent Palestine and will defend those borders against the apartheid state of Israel. The world knows Israel will never improve its appalling human rights record or stop committing war crimes off its own volition.
	__________________ “Everybody is somebody’s Jew. And today the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.” Primo Levi Capitalist (n) Someone who pays himself and his friends billions of dollars of your money as a reward for destroying your entire economy. Israelis are taught that Palestinians are not human beings like them. Gideon Levy The Punishment of Gaza

19th April 2010, 09:23 AM	#26
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,371	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong '..Israel's Defence Minister Ehud Barak has said Israel must, eventually, allow the Palestinians to rule themselves. In an interview with Army Radio he said in the future there would be a separate Palestinian state "whether you like it or not". ...' and '..."The world isn't willing to accept, and we won't change that in 2010, the expectation that Israel will rule another people for decades more," he said. ...' from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8629158.stm Israeli politicians do recognise that the world is not going to put up with the apartheid behaviour of successive Israeli government any longer and is not willing to accept the 60 year pogrom that successive extreme right wing governments of Israel have waged and are waging against the innocent people of Palestine. What Barack needs to recognise that the decision is no longer for the apartheid government of Israel to make. The world knows Israel will never obey the law will ignore the apartheid government of Israel soon by recognising the 1967 borders as the borders of an independent Palestine and will defend those borders against the apartheid state of Israel. The world knows Israel will never improve its appalling human rights record or stop committing war crimes off its own volition. I recommended to the mods that this thread and this one http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=172737 that you began, with pogrom as your descriptive, be merged. As to the opening sentence in your post, the Defense Minister's remarks make some sense. He seems to have a very pragmatic view of political realities. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

19th April 2010, 09:25 AM	#27
garethdjb Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 639	Pogrom. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
garethdjb Muse Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 639	__________________ " It's a cheerful philosophy and I've heard it from people before... they're all dead now though" - Sandy

19th April 2010, 01:59 PM	#28
Doctor Evil Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Back home Posts: 1,971	Originally Posted by WhiteLion Ah yes. Does the formentioned figure take into account migrations thereof then, i.e from Israel to Gaza or the West Bank, and/or vice versa? (wether arabic or jewish). I have no idea if there's been any substantial one at that from or to these territories, or if (or to which extent) people who have resettled to Israel have been naturalised so to speak. But I imagine it could potentially be a necessary variable of the given figures. There was no substantial migration. In 1948-49 some tens of thousands of Palestinians managed to return to their homes, but these are already included in Parky's initial estimate ot the number of Israeli Arabs. There was very little migration between WB and Gaza and Israel, as the Arabs living in the territories are not Israeli citizens. There are exceptions, such as people who got citizenship by marrying to Arab citizens, or the Palestinians from east Jerusalem who have chosen to take Israeli citizenship. Both are not large enough to affect Parky's point.
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

19th April 2010, 02:02 PM	#29
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,571	Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong If you want to see apartheid in action read on. If you don't, look away now. I looked away. And yet, I'm dying to know what you wrote. Quite the conundrum, isn't it?
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

20th April 2010, 12:09 AM	#30
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,506	Hasn't this disinformation ploy gone on for long enough and hasn't this specific issue been addressed in this thread already? : http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=172657 But I'm sure we can create 20 or so more of the same threads that state the same thing....
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,506