Taoism Thoughts

28th February 2003, 12:11 AM

Great knowledge sees all in one.
Small knowledge breaks down into the many

When the body sleeps, the soul is enfolded in One.
When the body wakes, the openings begin to function.

They resound with every encounter
With all the varied business of life, the strivings of the heart;

Men are blocked, perplexed, lost in doubt.
Little fears eat away their peace of heart.
Great fears swallow them whole,
Arrows shot at a target: hit and miss, right and wrong.
That is what men call judgment, decision.

Their pronouncements are as final
As treaties between emperors.
Oh, they make their point!
Yet their arguments fall faster and feebler
Than dead leaves in autumn and winter.
Their talk flows out like urine,
Never to be recovered.

They stand at last, blocked, bound, and gagged,
Choked up like old drain pipes.
The mind fails. It shall not see light again.

Pleasure and rage
Sadness and joy
Hopes and regrets
Change and stability
Weakness and decision
Impatience and sloth:
All are sounds from the same flute,
All mushrooms from the same wet mold.
Day and night follow one another and come upon us
Without our seeing how they sprout!

Enough! Enough!
Early and late we meet the "that"
From which "these" all grow!

If there were no "that"
There would be no "this."
If there were no "this"
There would be nothing for all these winds to play on.
So far can we go.
But how shall we understand
What brings it about?

One may suppose the True Governor to be behind it all.
That such a power works I can believe.
I cannot see his form.

He acts, but has no form.

corplinx · 28th February 2003, 12:22 AM

Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.

28th February 2003, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by corplinx
Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.

It could be.

Most wise thoughts aren't written or uttered by people with multiple degrees, but rather by 'stupid' people who aren't yet indoctrinated into status quo beliefs.

The only difference between the taodejing and her notebook is that the taodejing has ben around for thousands of years.

c4ts · 28th February 2003, 07:30 AM

Whodini, Whodini
Finds the yin in the yang
Thinks the yin is the yang
And gives up.

Franko · 28th February 2003, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.

Hehehe! … that really cracked me up.

But seriously speaking (and without reference to Whodini’s opening post in this thread) … I use to think that Whodini was a knucklehead, but I must confess I was all-wrong about him. In my opinion, he is actually a very bright guy, and he is a lot more skeptical then I originally gave him credit for. I find him to be one of the more lucid, original, and free-thinker members of this forum.

Akots · 28th February 2003, 09:27 AM

Any inner wisdom a person gains that is expressed through vague, contradictory verbs and nouns is not gained as a result of words alone. True enlightenment is, I believe, not possible to convey through words. I cannot describe how I think the things i do; the same whay I can enjoy a song, but not feel the same inspiration of creativity the artist did when writing it.

I'll admit, i don't know much about the subject... these are jsut my opinions. What are the concepts behind Taoism? I am very eager to understand what it means.

28th February 2003, 09:36 AM

Franko wrote:

----
I use to think that Whodini was a knucklehead, but I must confess I was all-wrong about him. In my opinion, he is actually a very bright guy, and he is a lot more skeptical then I originally gave him credit for. I find him to be one of the more lucid, original, and free-thinker members of this forum.
----

Thanks Franko.

While we don't agree on many points, Franko has encouraged me to be more critical of my own beliefs, and the beliefs of others, and to challenge the status quo more.

TheERK · 28th February 2003, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini

It could be.

Most wise thoughts aren't written or uttered by people with multiple degrees, but rather by 'stupid' people who aren't yet indoctrinated into status quo beliefs.

The only difference between the taodejing and her notebook is that the taodejing has ben around for thousands of years.

Depends on your definition of 'wisdom.' I, personally, don't equate poetic beauty with wisdom; poetry is poetry, a form of art. Just because something sounds mysterious, confusing, or artistic does not mean it is wise. Personally, I would call the work of serious philosophers 'wisdom.'

Also, to suggest that 'stupid people' are like open minded children and that 'smart people' are closed-minded scientism worshippers is just...trolling.

28th February 2003, 04:40 PM

TheERK,

----
I, personally, don't equate poetic beauty with wisdom;
----

I don't either. I equate the notions expressed in that particular piece of poetry as wisdom.

----
Also, to suggest that 'stupid people' are like open minded children and that 'smart people' are closed-minded scientism worshippers is just...trolling.
----

Actually, it is closer to the truth. Once people become indoctrinated in their beliefs, they turn stupid. However, the people who start out stupid tend to be intelligent in the end.

If you disagree, just say you disagree. Don't call it trolling when it obviously isn't.

TheERK · 28th February 2003, 04:50 PM

Whodini,

Just because some smart people are closed-minded does not mean that all or even most are. One people become indoctrined, yes, they become...well, closed-minded. I wouldn't say stupid. But we are not talking about people being indoctrined, we are talking about people being smart. Your words implied that smart people are closed-minded, which is not true.

Some stupid people are closed minded, some smart people are closed minded, some stupid people are open minded, and some stupid people are closed minded, and, if there is any trend within that, it's probably that the smarter you are the more open minded you are.

Perhaps it wasn't trolling, but to me it sounded like an attempt to irritate intelligent people by calling them, in effect, dumber than dumb people.

28th February 2003, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheERK

Some stupid people are closed minded, some smart people are closed minded, some stupid people are open minded, and some stupid people are closed minded, and, if there is any trend within that, it's probably that the smarter you are the more open minded you are.

I recall the quote, "Being open-minded about your irrational beliefs does not make them any less irrational."

28th February 2003, 05:47 PM

----
Some stupid people are closed minded, some smart people are closed minded, some stupid people are open minded, and some stupid people are closed minded,
----

Yeah, I agree with that.

28th February 2003, 05:52 PM

----
Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.
----

Thanks for affirming my beliefs.

When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence;
When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion;
When the "learned" man learns the Way, he laughs out loud;

28th February 2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini

When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence;
When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion;
When the "learned" man learns the Way, he laughs out loud;

Of course this is completely specious, because it can be claimed for absolutely any lunatic belief anyone could possibly think up.

In short, what possible reaction wouldn't "confirm" your beliefs?

It is like the gnomes that when looked at disappear instantly - nothing can ever prove they aren't really there. It is completely unfalsifiable - it cannot, even in principle, be disproved. Oh yes, and I should note it is also begging the question.

Another problem with Taoism is it to such a great degree 'right' because you can't possibly nail down what the hell is being said. It could mean nearly anything, so if you find a way to show one particular interpretation right then one can simply claim that isn't really what it means - if you think it wrong, then you just don't understand it. Which can, of course, be applied to absolutely any possible belief with just as much validity.

There are more logically possible statements then there are actually true statements - such vague pap doesn't help one know which is which whatsoever.

Oh yes, and I forgot the equally undefeatable counter to absolutely anything:

He who knows does not speak.
He who speaks does not know.

28th February 2003, 10:56 PM

----
Another problem with Taoism is it to such a great degree 'right' because you can't possibly nail down what the hell is being said.
----

How so?

1st March 2003, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
----
Another problem with Taoism is it to such a great degree 'right' because you can't possibly nail down what the hell is being said.
----

How so?

Largely due to vagueness, the switching of definition/meaning of a word midsentance, and statements which are logically contradictory (which, when intentional, seems to be for the effect such things bring about - what is being said isn't what matters, only its effect...but of course, how can you known which is which? Were they just full of it, or is there "something else"? It is that opened-endedness which is both the most interesting part, and the most dangerous as any claim can be wrapped in it and it is nearly impossible to deal with thoroughly, without neccessarily leaving some weasel-room to slip out of being proven wrong.).

The same effect can be found in the I Ching - it answers all questions to it, because it doesn't answer any of them; it is wide-open enough to allow you to come up with your own answer, and directed enough to keep you from just sitting there empty-mindedly. Then, any bit of knowledge or wisdom of action is thus attributed to the I Ching, or what have you, even though it was the person doing the reading/divining that came up with it.

The same thing is apparent in nearly all similarly formulated slightly-meaningful but mostly ambiguous things, from Kabala to...well, every mystical tradition there is. While there often is something really meaningful there...how can you tell which is crap and which isn't? By the time you can do that you pretty much know the answers anyway.

They can be useful tools, but they are so easily misused and bring one to total confusion. I suppose that is why they typically emphasize both keeping at it and finding a teacher - specifically someone to smack you when you've missed the point.

1st March 2003, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheERK

Depends on your definition of 'wisdom.' I, personally, don't equate poetic beauty with wisdom; poetry is poetry, a form of art. Just because something sounds mysterious, confusing, or artistic does not mean it is wise. Personally, I would call the work of serious philosophers 'wisdom.'

Also, to suggest that 'stupid people' are like open minded children and that 'smart people' are closed-minded scientism worshippers is just...trolling.

Come on Erk chill out! Whodini is perfectly correct. And even if he wasn't he's just expressing his honest opionion. It's absurd to call someone a troll for expressing their honest opinion.

1st March 2003, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheERK

Perhaps it wasn't trolling, but to me it sounded like an attempt to irritate intelligent people by calling them, in effect, dumber than dumb people.

Well it didn't irritate me at all.

1st March 2003, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
----
Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.
----

Thanks for affirming my beliefs.

When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence;
When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion;
When the "learned" man learns the Way, he laughs out loud;

precisely!

Q-Source · 1st March 2003, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Interesting Ian

Well it didn't irritate me at all.

Super Interesting Ian,

Sometimes you are very funny.

1st March 2003, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Q-Source

II
Well it didn't irritate me at all.

Q
Super Interesting Ian,

Sometimes you are very funny.

hammegk · 1st March 2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Plutarck

....By the time you can do that you pretty much know the answers anyway. ...

I'll be darned. Are you willing to share the knowledge you "pretty much know" of the "answers"?

Perhaps you can better the poem?

Aoidoi · 1st March 2003, 08:35 AM

(This is intended as humor, not an attack and certainly not a serious discussion)

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Great knowledge sees all in one.
Small knowledge breaks down into the many

Does that make these lines small knowledge?

Quote:

When the body sleeps, the soul is enfolded in One.
When the body wakes, the openings begin to function.

Yeah, I generally need to take a leak when I get up.

Quote:

They resound with every encounter
With all the varied business of life, the strivings of the heart;

We aren't back to that heart=center of emotion stuff again, are we? Doesn't anyone else find that silly? Or maybe it's just a comment on high blood pressure...

Quote:

Men are blocked, perplexed, lost in doubt.

And they won't stop and ask for directions, either!

Quote:

Little fears eat away their peace of heart.

sounds like worms

Quote:

Great fears swallow them whole,

Sounds like a REALLY BIG worm.

Quote:

Arrows shot at a target: hit and miss, right and wrong.
That is what men call judgment, decision.

Um, sh*t happens?

Quote:

Their pronouncements are as final
As treaties between emperors.

I seem to recall a lot of treaties that have been reneged upon...

Quote:

Oh, they make their point!
Yet their arguments fall faster and feebler
Than dead leaves in autumn and winter.

You ever had to rake those leaves? Feeble my ass!

Quote:

Their talk flows out like urine,

they musta just gotten up.

Quote:

Never to be recovered.

Well, you could try that Waterworld trick...

Quote:

They stand at last, blocked, bound, and gagged,

mmm... bondage...

Quote:

Choked up like old drain pipes.

old drain pipes get emotional, do they?

Quote:

The mind fails. It shall not see light again.

If your mind is seeing light perhaps you should put your skull back on.

Quote:

Pleasure and rage
Sadness and joy
Hopes and regrets
Change and stability
Weakness and decision
Impatience and sloth:

singing these are a few of my favorite things

Quote:

All are sounds from the same flute,
All mushrooms from the same wet mold.
Day and night follow one another and come upon us
Without our seeing how they sprout!

Flutes sprout? Day and night sprout? Methinks the metaphors are sufficiently mixed, chef.

Quote:

Enough! Enough!
Early and late we meet the "that"
From which "these" all grow!

Is this about morning wood?

Quote:

If there were no "that"
There would be no "this."
If there were no "this"

DOWN WITH THE REPRESSIVE PRONOUNS!

Quote:

There would be nothing for all these winds to play on.

That flutist would be out of work. (flautist?)

Quote:

So far can we go.

But there you are

Quote:

But how shall we understand
What brings it about?

Can we read entrails? Tea leaves?

Quote:

One may suppose the True Governor to be behind it all.

That's the thing that keeps me from driving over 133, right?

Quote:

That such a power works I can believe.

Well, my Focus doesn't have that much power, but I believe it.

Quote:

I cannot see his form.

AHH! Invisible IRS Auditors!

Quote:

He acts, but has no form.

Tom Cruise?

1st March 2003, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hammegk

I'll be darned. Are you willing to share the knowledge you "pretty much know" of the "answers"?

Since all are every so nicely unfalsifiable and yet contradictory, which interpretations would you like? The answers are all inside, they are all outside; the tao is everything, the tao is nothing, or the tao is everything, or the tao is some things but not others; the sage does not discriminate, the sage does discriminate; you have the tao, you don't have the tao, the trying is not the tao, doing is the tao; I'm sure there are lots more, and going verse by verse can give you all kinds of possible answers to a myriad of questions.

*ahem* But now that I look at it, I answered a bit of a different question than asked, so considering the rest of what I said:

Quote:

While there often is something really meaningful there...how can you tell which is crap and which isn't? By the time you can do that you pretty much know the answers anyway.

That is to say, the things spoken of are so complicated and contradictory that by the time you can sort them out there is little point remaining in sorting them out at all.

And as in the above, what they are supposed to mean is contradictory, with no apparent way to reconcile them or make them into anything more than amorphous cloud. Could be one thing, could be another...could be something else entirely.

Quote:

Perhaps you can better the poem?

And keep it a poem? Hell no, I think its fine art. It is when it is considered something other than fine art and poetry that is the problem

1st March 2003, 11:45 AM

Plutarck,

If something is useful in life, then keep it.

Just because something can be interpreted in many ways isn't a weakness, it is a strength. Also, contradictions are a good way to learn.

(Uh oh, Valmorian alert! Aaaoooooggaaaa!)

----
you have the tao, you don't have the tao,
----

You have many tao's, but not the Tao.

----
It is when it is considered something other than fine art and poetry that is the problem

----

So what is the problem exactly?

Aoidoi · 1st March 2003, 01:00 PM

Quote:

You have many tao's, but not the Tao.

Personally, I have 10 taos. 5 on each foot.

1st March 2003, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aoidoi
Personally, I have 10 taos. 5 on each foot.

I have 4 tacos in my fridge.

1st March 2003, 09:39 PM

Keep sharpening your knife and it becomes blunt.

What will happen to your skepticism?

1st March 2003, 10:06 PM

Some interesting Taoism links:

http://www.panlatrevo.com/tao/taospeaks/

http://www.thebigview.com/tao-te-ching/

Aoidoi · 2nd March 2003, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Keep sharpening your knife and it becomes blunt.

What will happen to your skepticism?

Er... if you keep sharpening a knife it can become too thin and brittle, but I don't think it'll get dull, exactly.

And I had 3 tacos for lunch.

2nd March 2003, 11:08 AM

Sharpen a pencil for a while. It disappears.

Aoidoi · 2nd March 2003, 11:15 AM

Er, yes... but a pencil is not a knife.

hammegk · 2nd March 2003, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Aoidoi
Er, yes... but a pencil is not a knife.

Keep sharpening, maybe you'll see the "point".

Aoidoi · 2nd March 2003, 11:28 AM

Well, if I keep licking at an ice cream cone it disappears too. If I burn a stick enough it vanishes. If I fart in a whirlwind, it also vanishes.

What any of this has to do with sharpening a knife making it dull is beyond me. As a stretch you could argue it would make it nonexistant, but since it would break before you got that far it's kind of irrelevant.

I mean, really. Haven't you ever seen an old knife that was sharpened a lot over time? They get thinner and thinner but they don't get dull, really. Eventually they'll break, but I wouldn't refer to a broken knife as "dull."

Why am I arguing this? It's even more pointless than most stuff in this forum!

2nd March 2003, 06:45 PM

----
What any of this has to do with sharpening a knife making it dull is beyond me.
----

Don't be SO literal for Pete's sake.
(why is Pete drinking anyway?)

Basically, if you keep doing something 'yang', 'yin' will manifest.

specious_reasons · 2nd March 2003, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
----
What any of this has to do with sharpening a knife making it dull is beyond me.
----
Don't be SO literal for Pete's sake.
(why is Pete drinking anyway?)

Basically, if you keep doing something 'yang', 'yin' will manifest.

So, maybe dullness isn't the "yin" to knife sharpening's "yang"?

Forgive my utter ignorance of Eastern philosophy, but are these like Zen Koans? My impression was that Koans didn't necessarily reflect a particular wisdom, only that they were to be contemplated.

3rd March 2003, 12:00 AM

Hi specious_reasons,

----
So, maybe dullness isn't the "yin" to knife sharpening's "yang"?
----

Could be.

The idea is that something has two main aspects. At the extreme of one aspect, you are suddenly made aware of the other aspect.

The specifics aren't important, just the main idea.

----
Forgive my utter ignorance of Eastern philosophy, but are these like Zen Koans? My impression was that Koans didn't necessarily reflect a particular wisdom, only that they were to be contemplated.
----

Koan's are a little different. What I offered above was just an example of a specific situation. A koan is more of a riddle to be comtemplated, like you said. The contemplation only works by non-rational methods due to the phrasing of the questions.

A fascinating resource is:

http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVLPages/Zen...KoanStudy.html

specious_reasons · 3rd March 2003, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Hi specious_reasons,
----
So, maybe dullness isn't the "yin" to knife sharpening's "yang"?
----
Could be.

The idea is that something has two main aspects. At the extreme of one aspect, you are suddenly made aware of the other aspect.

The specifics aren't important, just the main idea.

Interesting, how do you know you've gone too far Yin or Yang if you're not entirely sure what they are?

...Or do you just suck it up when the consequences hit?

I had a limited exposure to Zen and Koans from the book Gödel, Escher, Bach, and thought that they were interesting, but put it on the "maybe I'll get to it someday" list.

3rd March 2003, 10:38 PM

specious_reasons,

----
Interesting, how do you know you've gone too far Yin or Yang if you're not entirely sure what they are?
----

They are just concepts; an artist's organizing vision.

----
I had a limited exposure to Zen and Koans from the book Gödel, Escher, Bach, and thought that they were interesting, but put it on the "maybe I'll get to it someday" list.
----

The author of that book, Doug H., is a real cool guy. I hope to be 1/50th as intelligent as he is when I grow up.

Aoidoi · 4th March 2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whodini
Don't be SO literal for Pete's sake.

I just like my metaphors symmetrical. (and it's very entertaining to actually take what people say literally... people rarely think about commonly used phrases and what they're really saying)

Quote:

(why is Pete drinking anyway?)

Well, Pete and Repete were walking down the street...

28th February 2003, 12:11 AM	#1
Guest Posts: n/a	Taoism Thoughts Great knowledge sees all in one. Small knowledge breaks down into the many When the body sleeps, the soul is enfolded in One. When the body wakes, the openings begin to function. They resound with every encounter With all the varied business of life, the strivings of the heart; Men are blocked, perplexed, lost in doubt. Little fears eat away their peace of heart. Great fears swallow them whole, Arrows shot at a target: hit and miss, right and wrong. That is what men call judgment, decision. Their pronouncements are as final As treaties between emperors. Oh, they make their point! Yet their arguments fall faster and feebler Than dead leaves in autumn and winter. Their talk flows out like urine, Never to be recovered. They stand at last, blocked, bound, and gagged, Choked up like old drain pipes. The mind fails. It shall not see light again. Pleasure and rage Sadness and joy Hopes and regrets Change and stability Weakness and decision Impatience and sloth: All are sounds from the same flute, All mushrooms from the same wet mold. Day and night follow one another and come upon us Without our seeing how they sprout! Enough! Enough! Early and late we meet the "that" From which "these" all grow! If there were no "that" There would be no "this." If there were no "this" There would be nothing for all these winds to play on. So far can we go. But how shall we understand What brings it about? One may suppose the True Governor to be behind it all. That such a power works I can believe. I cannot see his form. He acts, but has no form.
Guest Posts: n/a

28th February 2003, 12:22 AM	#2
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944	Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook.
corplinx JREF Kid Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 8,944

28th February 2003, 07:15 AM	#3
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by corplinx Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook. It could be. Most wise thoughts aren't written or uttered by people with multiple degrees, but rather by 'stupid' people who aren't yet indoctrinated into status quo beliefs. The only difference between the taodejing and her notebook is that the taodejing has ben around for thousands of years.
Guest Posts: n/a

28th February 2003, 07:30 AM	#4
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Whodini, Whodini Finds the yin in the yang Thinks the yin is the yang And gives up.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

28th February 2003, 07:56 AM	#5
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338	Quote: Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook. Hehehe! … that really cracked me up. But seriously speaking (and without reference to Whodini’s opening post in this thread) … I use to think that Whodini was a knucklehead, but I must confess I was all-wrong about him. In my opinion, he is actually a very bright guy, and he is a lot more skeptical then I originally gave him credit for. I find him to be one of the more lucid, original, and free-thinker members of this forum.
Franko Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,338

28th February 2003, 09:27 AM	#6
Akots Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 494	Any inner wisdom a person gains that is expressed through vague, contradictory verbs and nouns is not gained as a result of words alone. True enlightenment is, I believe, not possible to convey through words. I cannot describe how I think the things i do; the same whay I can enjoy a song, but not feel the same inspiration of creativity the artist did when writing it. I'll admit, i don't know much about the subject... these are jsut my opinions. What are the concepts behind Taoism? I am very eager to understand what it means.
Akots Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 494	__________________ I can't drink POSSIBLE beers! I need ACTUAL beers! Damn you, quantum mechanics!

28th February 2003, 09:36 AM	#7
Guest Posts: n/a	Franko wrote: ---- I use to think that Whodini was a knucklehead, but I must confess I was all-wrong about him. In my opinion, he is actually a very bright guy, and he is a lot more skeptical then I originally gave him credit for. I find him to be one of the more lucid, original, and free-thinker members of this forum. ---- Thanks Franko. While we don't agree on many points, Franko has encouraged me to be more critical of my own beliefs, and the beliefs of others, and to challenge the status quo more.
Guest Posts: n/a

28th February 2003, 11:26 AM	#8
TheERK Thinker Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 174	Quote: Originally posted by Whodini It could be. Most wise thoughts aren't written or uttered by people with multiple degrees, but rather by 'stupid' people who aren't yet indoctrinated into status quo beliefs. The only difference between the taodejing and her notebook is that the taodejing has ben around for thousands of years. Depends on your definition of 'wisdom.' I, personally, don't equate poetic beauty with wisdom; poetry is poetry, a form of art. Just because something sounds mysterious, confusing, or artistic does not mean it is wise. Personally, I would call the work of serious philosophers 'wisdom.' Also, to suggest that 'stupid people' are like open minded children and that 'smart people' are closed-minded scientism worshippers is just...trolling.
TheERK Thinker Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 174

28th February 2003, 04:40 PM	#9
Guest Posts: n/a	TheERK, ---- I, personally, don't equate poetic beauty with wisdom; ---- I don't either. I equate the notions expressed in that particular piece of poetry as wisdom. ---- Also, to suggest that 'stupid people' are like open minded children and that 'smart people' are closed-minded scientism worshippers is just...trolling. ---- Actually, it is closer to the truth. Once people become indoctrinated in their beliefs, they turn stupid. However, the people who start out stupid tend to be intelligent in the end. If you disagree, just say you disagree. Don't call it trolling when it obviously isn't.
Guest Posts: n/a

28th February 2003, 04:50 PM	#10
TheERK Thinker Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 174	Whodini, Just because some smart people are closed-minded does not mean that all or even most are. One people become indoctrined, yes, they become...well, closed-minded. I wouldn't say stupid. But we are not talking about people being indoctrined, we are talking about people being smart. Your words implied that smart people are closed-minded, which is not true. Some stupid people are closed minded, some smart people are closed minded, some stupid people are open minded, and some stupid people are closed minded, and, if there is any trend within that, it's probably that the smarter you are the more open minded you are. Perhaps it wasn't trolling, but to me it sounded like an attempt to irritate intelligent people by calling them, in effect, dumber than dumb people.
TheERK Thinker Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 174

28th February 2003, 05:25 PM	#11
Plutarck Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by TheERK Some stupid people are closed minded, some smart people are closed minded, some stupid people are open minded, and some stupid people are closed minded, and, if there is any trend within that, it's probably that the smarter you are the more open minded you are. I recall the quote, "Being open-minded about your irrational beliefs does not make them any less irrational."
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28th February 2003, 05:47 PM	#12
Guest Posts: n/a	---- Some stupid people are closed minded, some smart people are closed minded, some stupid people are open minded, and some stupid people are closed minded, ---- Yeah, I agree with that.
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28th February 2003, 05:52 PM	#13
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Taoism Thoughts ---- Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook. ---- Thanks for affirming my beliefs. When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence; When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion; When the "learned" man learns the Way, he laughs out loud;
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28th February 2003, 06:04 PM	#14
Plutarck Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts Quote: Originally posted by Whodini When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence; When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion; When the "learned" man learns the Way, he laughs out loud; Of course this is completely specious, because it can be claimed for absolutely any lunatic belief anyone could possibly think up. In short, what possible reaction wouldn't "confirm" your beliefs? It is like the gnomes that when looked at disappear instantly - nothing can ever prove they aren't really there. It is completely unfalsifiable - it cannot, even in principle, be disproved. Oh yes, and I should note it is also begging the question. Another problem with Taoism is it to such a great degree 'right' because you can't possibly nail down what the hell is being said. It could mean nearly anything, so if you find a way to show one particular interpretation right then one can simply claim that isn't really what it means - if you think it wrong, then you just don't understand it. Which can, of course, be applied to absolutely any possible belief with just as much validity. There are more logically possible statements then there are actually true statements - such vague pap doesn't help one know which is which whatsoever. Oh yes, and I forgot the equally undefeatable counter to absolutely anything: He who knows does not speak. He who speaks does not know.
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28th February 2003, 10:56 PM	#15
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts ---- Another problem with Taoism is it to such a great degree 'right' because you can't possibly nail down what the hell is being said. ---- How so?
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1st March 2003, 06:16 AM	#16
Plutarck Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts Quote: Originally posted by Whodini ---- Another problem with Taoism is it to such a great degree 'right' because you can't possibly nail down what the hell is being said. ---- How so? Largely due to vagueness, the switching of definition/meaning of a word midsentance, and statements which are logically contradictory (which, when intentional, seems to be for the effect such things bring about - what is being said isn't what matters, only its effect...but of course, how can you known which is which? Were they just full of it, or is there "something else"? It is that opened-endedness which is both the most interesting part, and the most dangerous as any claim can be wrapped in it and it is nearly impossible to deal with thoroughly, without neccessarily leaving some weasel-room to slip out of being proven wrong.). The same effect can be found in the I Ching - it answers all questions to it, because it doesn't answer any of them; it is wide-open enough to allow you to come up with your own answer, and directed enough to keep you from just sitting there empty-mindedly. Then, any bit of knowledge or wisdom of action is thus attributed to the I Ching, or what have you, even though it was the person doing the reading/divining that came up with it. The same thing is apparent in nearly all similarly formulated slightly-meaningful but mostly ambiguous things, from Kabala to...well, every mystical tradition there is. While there often is something really meaningful there...how can you tell which is crap and which isn't? By the time you can do that you pretty much know the answers anyway. They can be useful tools, but they are so easily misused and bring one to total confusion. I suppose that is why they typically emphasize both keeping at it and finding a teacher - specifically someone to smack you when you've missed the point.
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1st March 2003, 07:33 AM	#17
Interesting Ian Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by TheERK Depends on your definition of 'wisdom.' I, personally, don't equate poetic beauty with wisdom; poetry is poetry, a form of art. Just because something sounds mysterious, confusing, or artistic does not mean it is wise. Personally, I would call the work of serious philosophers 'wisdom.' Also, to suggest that 'stupid people' are like open minded children and that 'smart people' are closed-minded scientism worshippers is just...trolling. Come on Erk chill out! Whodini is perfectly correct. And even if he wasn't he's just expressing his honest opionion. It's absurd to call someone a troll for expressing their honest opinion.
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1st March 2003, 07:36 AM	#18
Interesting Ian Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by TheERK Perhaps it wasn't trolling, but to me it sounded like an attempt to irritate intelligent people by calling them, in effect, dumber than dumb people. Well it didn't irritate me at all.
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1st March 2003, 07:38 AM	#19
Interesting Ian Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts Quote: Originally posted by Whodini ---- Sounds like something that one chick at my high school that wore a beret would write in her "creative" notebook. ---- Thanks for affirming my beliefs. When the great man learns the Way, he follows it with diligence; When the common man learns the Way, he follows it on occasion; When the "learned" man learns the Way, he laughs out loud; precisely!
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1st March 2003, 08:20 AM	#20
Q-Source Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,268	Quote: Originally posted by Interesting Ian Well it didn't irritate me at all. Super Interesting Ian, Sometimes you are very funny.
Q-Source Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,268

1st March 2003, 08:24 AM	#21
Interesting Ian Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Q-Source II Well it didn't irritate me at all. Q Super Interesting Ian, Sometimes you are very funny.
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1st March 2003, 08:26 AM	#22
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts Quote: Originally posted by Plutarck ....By the time you can do that you pretty much know the answers anyway. ... I'll be darned. Are you willing to share the knowledge you "pretty much know" of the "answers"? Perhaps you can better the poem?
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

1st March 2003, 08:35 AM	#23
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	Re: Taoism Thoughts (This is intended as humor, not an attack and certainly not a serious discussion) Quote: Originally posted by Whodini Great knowledge sees all in one. Small knowledge breaks down into the many Does that make these lines small knowledge? Quote: When the body sleeps, the soul is enfolded in One. When the body wakes, the openings begin to function. Yeah, I generally need to take a leak when I get up. Quote: They resound with every encounter With all the varied business of life, the strivings of the heart; We aren't back to that heart=center of emotion stuff again, are we? Doesn't anyone else find that silly? Or maybe it's just a comment on high blood pressure... Quote: Men are blocked, perplexed, lost in doubt. And they won't stop and ask for directions, either! Quote: Little fears eat away their peace of heart. sounds like worms Quote: Great fears swallow them whole, Sounds like a REALLY BIG worm. Quote: Arrows shot at a target: hit and miss, right and wrong. That is what men call judgment, decision. Um, sht happens? Quote: Their pronouncements are as final As treaties between emperors. I seem to recall a lot of treaties that have been reneged upon... Quote: Oh, they make their point! Yet their arguments fall faster and feebler Than dead leaves in autumn and winter. You ever had to rake those leaves? Feeble my ass! Quote: Their talk flows out like urine, they musta just gotten up. Quote: Never to be recovered. Well, you could try that Waterworld trick... Quote: They stand at last, blocked, bound, and gagged, mmm... bondage... Quote: Choked up like old drain pipes. old drain pipes get emotional, do they? Quote: The mind fails. It shall not see light again. If your mind is seeing light perhaps you should put your skull back on. Quote: Pleasure and rage Sadness and joy Hopes and regrets Change and stability Weakness and decision Impatience and sloth: singing* these are a few of my favorite things Quote: All are sounds from the same flute, All mushrooms from the same wet mold. Day and night follow one another and come upon us Without our seeing how they sprout! Flutes sprout? Day and night sprout? Methinks the metaphors are sufficiently mixed, chef. Quote: Enough! Enough! Early and late we meet the "that" From which "these" all grow! Is this about morning wood? Quote: If there were no "that" There would be no "this." If there were no "this" DOWN WITH THE REPRESSIVE PRONOUNS! Quote: There would be nothing for all these winds to play on. That flutist would be out of work. (flautist?) Quote: So far can we go. But there you are Quote: But how shall we understand What brings it about? Can we read entrails? Tea leaves? Quote: One may suppose the True Governor to be behind it all. That's the thing that keeps me from driving over 133, right? Quote: That such a power works I can believe. Well, my Focus doesn't have that much power, but I believe it. Quote: I cannot see his form. AHH! Invisible IRS Auditors! Quote: He acts, but has no form. Tom Cruise?
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	__________________ "The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them." - Joseph Campbell We cannot defend freedom abroad by abandoning it at home. —Edward R. Murrow

1st March 2003, 08:43 AM	#24
Plutarck Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts Quote: Originally posted by hammegk I'll be darned. Are you willing to share the knowledge you "pretty much know" of the "answers"? Since all are every so nicely unfalsifiable and yet contradictory, which interpretations would you like? The answers are all inside, they are all outside; the tao is everything, the tao is nothing, or the tao is everything, or the tao is some things but not others; the sage does not discriminate, the sage does discriminate; you have the tao, you don't have the tao, the trying is not the tao, doing is the tao; I'm sure there are lots more, and going verse by verse can give you all kinds of possible answers to a myriad of questions. ahem But now that I look at it, I answered a bit of a different question than asked, so considering the rest of what I said: Quote: While there often is something really meaningful there...how can you tell which is crap and which isn't? By the time you can do that you pretty much know the answers anyway. That is to say, the things spoken of are so complicated and contradictory that by the time you can sort them out there is little point remaining in sorting them out at all. And as in the above, what they are supposed to mean is contradictory, with no apparent way to reconcile them or make them into anything more than amorphous cloud. Could be one thing, could be another...could be something else entirely. Quote: Perhaps you can better the poem? And keep it a poem? Hell no, I think its fine art. It is when it is considered something other than fine art and poetry that is the problem
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1st March 2003, 11:45 AM	#25
Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Taoism Thoughts Plutarck, If something is useful in life, then keep it. Just because something can be interpreted in many ways isn't a weakness, it is a strength. Also, contradictions are a good way to learn. (Uh oh, Valmorian alert! Aaaoooooggaaaa!) ---- you have the tao, you don't have the tao, ---- You have many tao's, but not the Tao. ---- It is when it is considered something other than fine art and poetry that is the problem ---- So what is the problem exactly?
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1st March 2003, 01:00 PM	#26
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	Quote: You have many tao's, but not the Tao. Personally, I have 10 taos. 5 on each foot.
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	__________________ "The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them." - Joseph Campbell We cannot defend freedom abroad by abandoning it at home. —Edward R. Murrow

1st March 2003, 01:29 PM	#27
Guest Posts: n/a	Quote: Originally posted by Aoidoi Personally, I have 10 taos. 5 on each foot. I have 4 tacos in my fridge.
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1st March 2003, 09:39 PM	#28
Guest Posts: n/a	Keep sharpening your knife and it becomes blunt. What will happen to your skepticism?
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1st March 2003, 10:06 PM	#29
Guest Posts: n/a	Some interesting Taoism links: http://www.panlatrevo.com/tao/taospeaks/ http://www.thebigview.com/tao-te-ching/
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2nd March 2003, 09:33 AM	#30
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	Quote: Originally posted by Whodini Keep sharpening your knife and it becomes blunt. What will happen to your skepticism? Er... if you keep sharpening a knife it can become too thin and brittle, but I don't think it'll get dull, exactly. And I had 3 tacos for lunch.
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	__________________ "The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them." - Joseph Campbell We cannot defend freedom abroad by abandoning it at home. —Edward R. Murrow

2nd March 2003, 11:08 AM	#31
Guest Posts: n/a	Sharpen a pencil for a while. It disappears.
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2nd March 2003, 11:15 AM	#32
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	Er, yes... but a pencil is not a knife.
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	__________________ "The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them." - Joseph Campbell We cannot defend freedom abroad by abandoning it at home. —Edward R. Murrow

2nd March 2003, 11:23 AM	#33
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422	Quote: Originally posted by Aoidoi Er, yes... but a pencil is not a knife. Keep sharpening, maybe you'll see the "point".
hammegk Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 8,422

2nd March 2003, 11:28 AM	#34
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	Well, if I keep licking at an ice cream cone it disappears too. If I burn a stick enough it vanishes. If I fart in a whirlwind, it also vanishes. What any of this has to do with sharpening a knife making it dull is beyond me. As a stretch you could argue it would make it nonexistant, but since it would break before you got that far it's kind of irrelevant. I mean, really. Haven't you ever seen an old knife that was sharpened a lot over time? They get thinner and thinner but they don't get dull, really. Eventually they'll break, but I wouldn't refer to a broken knife as "dull." Why am I arguing this? It's even more pointless than most stuff in this forum!
Aoidoi Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,417	__________________ "The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them." - Joseph Campbell We cannot defend freedom abroad by abandoning it at home. —Edward R. Murrow

2nd March 2003, 06:45 PM	#35
Guest Posts: n/a	---- What any of this has to do with sharpening a knife making it dull is beyond me. ---- Don't be SO literal for Pete's sake. (why is Pete drinking anyway?) Basically, if you keep doing something 'yang', 'yin' will manifest.
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