Was Dick Oliver confused about what he heard on 9/11

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

Laphroaig do, that's my favourite.

Your very welcome ...

I swear to Spaghetti Monster, that was what I guessed you'd serve!

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

Originally Posted by Oystein

I swear to Spaghetti Monster, that was what I guessed you'd serve!

Maybe its the German thing, my partner is German ...

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

Laphroaig do, that's my favourite.

Your very welcome ...

Welcome

Funnily enough the whisk(e)y thread over thataway turned into a running advert for Islay malts. mmmmmmm.....

[I Ratant]

Originally Posted by Oystein

...

Hey jammo, this all word salad, worthless, but you sure coloured and sized it impressively.
I can do that too!

.
The local loon that writes outraged letters to the city council does that also.
It's a well-known sign of mental instability when used all the time in rambling incoherent rants, as jammy does.
Kinda an Internet signature for the disturbed.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

Hi, to everybody else ... much respect for what you do ... sending you all a virtual dram to ease the pain of suffering fools ...

Well, those of us who've been here a while have sorta grown numb. If not from the repetition of lunatic displays (while special in his own way, Jam is yet to reach Christophera's level of sheer obstinacy), then from PMs from JimBenArm containing naughty imagry of himself^* ... . Which itself is a sort of lunatic display, but I digress... Anyway, thanks for the sentiment.

And welcome! I now need to go and beat my forehead with a bat in order to resuppress the memory of those PMs...



^*Context: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...01#post4463301

[sheeplesnshills]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheeplesnshills View Post
OK please show us how it is "verified"?




Word salad




You don't know, because you are mentally ill.....but almost everyone else in the world does know.

Quote:

The above is a stupid post. Will you get with the program and stop playing stupid-question games and stupid diagnostic games, please.

What program????? please state where we can see your verification as requested.

Your posts are descending (from an albeitly already low level) to either meaningless drivel (word salad) or bold assertions without any attempt at proof. Since no rational person could possibly mean what you say you are either a nasty liar or insane. I understand you probably do not realize that you are mentally ill but if you take a copy of this thread to a doctor, I sure he can explain what is wrong and can direct you to where you might get treatment.
Last time I lived in the UK such treatment was free.

[sheeplesnshills]

Originally Posted by I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

Yes, even for us "lurkers" ... he is just another deluded, overly self-superior twoof engaging in endless semantics.

Thanks for welcome, been following you all for quite some time, but I have been doing my own wee bit of de-bunking before, firstly on Bebo, which was easy as they mostly ill-informed teenagers ... whom wholly sucked up all the LC and Zeitgeist guff.

I have even (shameless claim to fame here) engaged with the infamous Heiwa, over at TruTV,... where he was very quickly banned and is now reduced to ATS, and the cesspit that is AWE ... shame that ...

If you like debunking go try that on P4T or 911oz......it fun to see how short a time it is before they accuse you of being a Gov. Shill (man I wish I could get paid for this! I keep asking them where to go but they never tell me) and then ban you....I lasted a couple of weeks on both.........word of caution though Balsamo, Aldo and Ranke on P4T are nasty pieces of work and there are a lot of nasty types on 911oz too.

[jammonius]

Originally Posted by I_Gaze_At_The_Blue

jammonius, I am one of the fabled "lurkers" you are always so keen to address ... and I must say I have NEVER seen anyone engaged in such convoluted and labyrinthine mental gymnastics as you.

You are desprerately ... and I do mean desperately ... trying to find ANY tiny little chink of doubt from those here to pounce upon, which you will doubtlessly loudly trumpet as some sort of (albeit hollow) victory.

Your wee Dick Oliver video is not the ONLY piece of evidence ...

You are engaged in this (ultimately futile) parody of a quest to find anything (however feeble) to bolster your "claims" and will jump on it claiming victory ...

But THOUSANDS ... jam, THOUSANDS ... of people witnessed LIVE with their own eyes and ears those events ...

Endless and pointless debates about decibel levels and speeds mean nothing ... they do not detract from the simple physical reality of aircraft hitting those Towers ... an event WITNESSED in real time by real people ... thousands of them ...

They can't all be wrong, and you right because your not entirely convinced by ONE video ... your abstract and circuitous reasonings don't count.

Seriously !!!

You are simply never going to be able to convince anyone with even half a brain of your logic, for it isn't logic ... it's desperation and even us fabled lurkers see and recognise it ... your just wrong jam ... period !!!

Everybody and their mothers KNOW that without a doubt it was an aircraft ... your tortuous, mental tumblings will not change that.

Although new here ... and have no wish to tread on twoofie toes (yet) jam seems to be tying himself up into some endless Gordian knot here with his inane ramblings ... anyone up for administering the required bold stroke ???

~~~~~~~~~~

Hi, to everybody else ... much respect for what you do ... sending you all a virtual dram to ease the pain of suffering fools ...

Welcome to the thread and thank you for your contribution.

Many take solace in almost identically worded claims that THOUSANDS ... jam, THOUSANDS ... of people witnessed LIVE with their own eyes and ears those events ..., as you put it.

However, almost all such reporting of such accounts fails and fails utterly to satisfy ordinary standards of reliablility.

When it comes to specific accounts from people verifiably present, having both an advantaged viewing perspective and a duty to be observant, the reporting is quite different.

See, for instance, the account of Asst. Commissioner Stephen Gregory, the highest ranking firefighter on duty who said and I quote:

Q. Did you see or hear the second plane before
it hit the World Trade Center?
A. I never actually saw the plane, but l heard
it. You could hear it coming in and then we heard the
explosion and you could hear the roar of the plane
coming in. At first I didn't realize it was a plane.
I thought it was like the roar of fire, like something
had just incinerated, like a gas tank or an oil tank.
It sounded like a tremendous roar and then you heard
boom and then there was a big fire, a lot of fire, a
big fireball. I never actually saw a plane hit the
building. I never saw that. I saw it on television,
but I never saw it while I was standing there.

You may find Commissioner Gregory's account, listed in alphabetical order, at:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...s_full_01.html

Those 500 accounts of First Responders confirm that almost no one saw and heard any jetliners among those who were verifiably present and who had both a capacity to observe and a duty to report accurately on what they saw and heard.

The conclusion that must necessarily and objectively be drawn from what verifiable witnesses saw and heard is this:

The claim that there are 1000s of witnesses to jetliners hitting the WTC is either false, or, at best, unconfirmed and is merely a matter of folklore and/or what people want to believe as a substitute for not actually knowing with any certainty what happened.

The Dick Oliver videos are a perfect confirmation of the foregoing. Those videos show that the claim a jetliner hit the WTC at 500mph is not confirmed by anyone in those videos. Not one single person.

Thanks again for your post,

all the best

[Bell]

Originally Posted by jammonius

Those 500 accounts of First Responders confirm that almost no one saw and heard any jetliners among those who were verifiably present and who had both a capacity to observe and a duty to report accurately on what they saw and heard.

Jammonius, when someone tells he didn't see the plane, this does not mean s/he looked up at where AA11 was supposed to be, and all they saw was empty blue sky. It means they either didn't have a line of sight, or only looked up on or after the moment of impact.

Also, can you respond to this post please?

Originally Posted by Bell

Hey Posters and Lurkers,

Wonder how Jammonius explains the Naudet video (where we can also HEAR the jet, even though no busses or subway trains are nearby), the video where the firefighters look up at the sky and Jules pans and zooms his camera towards AA11 and the WTC?

Wonder how Jammonius explains why chief Pfeifer called in the first report, and reported a plane hit the Trade Center? Wonder how Jammonius explains why chief Pfeifer did not stop his brother from going up in WTC1?

Me too!

[CompusMentus]

Originally Posted by jammonius

The Dick Oliver videos are a perfect confirmation of the foregoing. Those videos show that the claim a jetliner hit the WTC at 500mph is not confirmed by anyone in those videos. Not one single person.

From the Dick oliver video:-

Quote:

Jim Friedl: ....it was a large plane like a seven-twenty-seven and that's the only reason I kept looking. And you know, it went right into the building. I just thought it was going to follow the river and keep on going, but it didn't......when it hit there was a large explosion and again smoke and debris coming out the other side as well

Prove Jim Friedl is a liar or STFU.


Compus

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by jammonius

Your speculation on the nature of the military exercises that caused military personnel to ask, out loud, "...is this EXERCISE or is this REAL WORLD?..." is weak, speculative and unpersuasive.

Try again.

IN The military, "is this real or an exercise" is serious question as we are armed and killing is serious, it is not a good thing to shoot people and kill in an exercise, so checking an input is real or an exercise is what you might HEAR in the military since we train much more than we are actually used in the real world. Many in the USAF are in the business of nuclear war, it would be a horrible mistake to launch nukes on an exercise. So your speculation about the statement is delusional claptrap, your lack of logic and practical experience make it clear why to you jet engines are Plymouth Wheel Covers.

[sheeplesnshills]

Quote:

Many take solace in almost identically worded claims that THOUSANDS ... jam, THOUSANDS ... of people witnessed LIVE with their own eyes and ears those events ..., as you put it.

However, almost all such reporting of such accounts fails and fails utterly to satisfy ordinary standards of reliablility.

In what way. Do you imagine that if there was a trial for example and an appeal for witnesses to one or other of the planes that there would not be that many coming forward? Plus the witnesses who saw smoke and flames (like in the oliver video )? plus the witnesses who saw debris, plus the witnesses that were operating the Radar and air traffic control? The witnesses who picked up the body parts and personal papers of passengers?
The DNA expert who identified those body parts as being from those passengers?, The families and friends of those passengers and crew of the aircraft who kissed them goodbye that morning when they headed of for that almost routine flight for business or plaesure and never saw them again.

Do you not imagine for one second all that is going to blow your "it could have been a bus or train" evidence completely out of the water?

Quote:

When it comes to specific accounts from people verifiably present, having both an advantaged viewing perspective and a duty to be observant, the reporting is quite different.

You have not shown that any witness was not exactly who and where they said they were. Provide proof that they were all lying or even evidence that they might be..............

Quote:

See, for instance, the account of Asst. Commissioner Stephen Gregory, the highest ranking firefighter on duty who said and I quote:

Q. Did you see or hear the second plane before
it hit the World Trade Center?
A. I never actually saw the plane, but l heard
it. You could hear it coming in and then we heard the
explosion and you could hear the roar of the plane
coming in. At first I didn't realize it was a plane.
I thought it was like the roar of fire, like something
had just incinerated, like a gas tank or an oil tank.
It sounded like a tremendous roar and then you heard
boom and then there was a big fire, a lot of fire, a
big fireball. I never actually saw a plane hit the
building. I never saw that. I saw it on television,
but I never saw it while I was standing there.

He heard a plane, what more do you want???? most folks do not spend their time looking up and in any case as I have explained before to you, the sound of the plane would reach bystanders on the ground about the same instant the plane hit the building. unless a person was further away (like Naudet or Rosa Cardona Rivera)they would only see the plane if they happened to be looking at exactly the right place at exactly the right time.

Quote:

Those 500 accounts of First Responders confirm that almost no one saw and heard any jetliners among those who were verifiably present and who had both a capacity to observe and a duty to report accurately on what they saw and heard.

See above....firefighters did see the first aircraft (those with Naudet) and it was no ones job to keep staring at the Towers watching for jets!!!)
And millions saw the second one on multiple channels in Hi Def, plus thousands more on the ground and a few more on home video.


T

Quote:

he conclusion that must necessarily and objectively be drawn from what verifiable witnesses saw and heard is this:

The claim that there are 1000s of witnesses to jetliners hitting the WTC is either false, or, at best, unconfirmed and is merely a matter of folklore and/or what people want to believe as a substitute for not actually knowing with any certainty what happened.

No call ever went out asking ALL witnesses to come forward and record statements. The evidence for there being two planes was overwhelming and BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT.

Quote:

Quote:

The Dick Oliver videos are a perfect confirmation of the foregoing. Those videos show that the claim a jetliner hit the WTC at 500mph is not confirmed by anyone in those videos. Not one single person.

They were never offered as definitive proof there was a plane. Nothing in them definitely proofs or disproves anything. They are merely minor evidence that there was a noise that some thought was an aircraft at exactly the time there was expected to be such a noise if there was a plane.
The later interviews shows that a least some people did see a plane and others did not (note those who did not were not asked if they were looking up at the north side of the north tower before and as the explosion occurred, so them not seeing it is meaningless in terms of evidence.)

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

Well, those of us who've been here a while have sorta grown numb. If not from the repetition of lunatic displays (while special in his own way, Jam is yet to reach Christophera's level of sheer obstinacy), then from PMs from JimBenArm containing naughty imagry of himself^* ... . Which itself is a sort of lunatic display, but I digress... Anyway, thanks for the sentiment.

And welcome! I now need to go and beat my forehead with a bat in order to resuppress the memory of those PMs...



^*Context: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...01#post4463301

Thank you for the link.Jammonious has not reach those dizzy heights of lunacy,but he's well on the way.Medical help is free in the UK,if I were you I would take advantage of it Jammy.

[CompusMentus]

Originally Posted by beachnut

.....your lack of logic and practical experience make it clear why to you jet engines are Plymouth Wheel Covers.

And:

• Why a passing bus sounds like a jet.
• Why someone in an underground train station should be able to see an aircraft at 1000'.
• Why any eyewitness to a plane on that day is a "bozo", "liar" or "psyops".
• Why any image of a plane on that day is fake.
• Why China bought 300,000 tons of dust.

(Feel free to add to the list)

Compus

[AJM8125]

Posters / Lurkers:

Just a quick reminder that the reason why jammonius appears to be upset is it's been proven that his star witness, Dick Oliver, did in fact hear what he correctly believed upon his impression, an airplane. Having his argument destroyed in such a manner didn't sit well him, the poor thing. Now he's taken to creating new characters in his fantasy, like Our Lady of the Subway, who we were fortold would rise from the tunnel on the eleventh day and not see a Boeing.

I think jammonius has written her part as some kind of metaphor, perhaps a deeper meaning to 9/11 that's beyond us mortal, plane spotting louts.

[X]

Originally Posted by Bell

Jammonius, when someone tells he didn't see the plane, this does not mean s/he looked up at where AA11 was supposed to be, and all they saw was empty blue sky. It means they either didn't have a line of sight, or only looked up on or after the moment of impact.

A very good point.


Didn't see a plane != Saw no plane


I didn't see the person who tried to steal my sister's car a few days back.
Jammonius would interpret this as me saying I saw no one trying to steal my sister's car.

[Edx]

Originally Posted by X

I didn't see the person who tried to steal my sister's car a few days back.
Jammonius would interpret this as me saying I saw no one trying to steal my sister's car.

CGI stole your sisters car.

[Bell]

It was not a car. It was a bus.

[AJM8125]

And Dick Oliver is under it.

[Oystein]

Your sister is a bozo. I am sure she has been described as such much in the car stealing community.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

...I now need to go and beat my forehead with a bat in order to resuppress the memory of those PMs...
...

I really would have recommended accepting that dram instead

[AJM8125]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Your sister is a bozo. I am sure she has been described as such much in the car stealing community.

[ElMondoHummus]

Originally Posted by Oystein

I really would have recommended accepting that dram instead

Talk to JimBenArm about his displays of Debunking Boots and Fishnets. You'll find that even multiple drams of whatever are insufficient to kill the brain cells responsible for your recollection of it.

What's that Futurama line? "You've watched it! You can't unwatch it!!"

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by jammonius

... The claim that there are 1000s of witnesses to jetliners hitting the WTC is either false, or, at best, unconfirmed and is merely a matter of folklore and/or what people want to believe as a substitute for not actually knowing with any certainty what happened.

...

UBL agrees Flight 11 and 175 impacted the WTC towers, you are not as capable as a terrorist at understanding 911; why is that?

Millions saw the impact of flight 175 and 11 because of video. How many people agree with your moronic delusions.

[twinstead]

I'm still waiting for the first time a defense lawyer tries the tactic of "well, these 2 bystanders who weren't looking at my client didn't see my client kill that man, therefore it didn't happen. All those witnesses who saw the murder must be lying".

Excellent.

[A W Smith]

Originally Posted by jammonius

Welcome to the thread and thank you for your contribution.

Many take solace in almost identically worded claims that THOUSANDS ... jam, THOUSANDS ... of people witnessed LIVE with their own eyes and ears those events ..., as you put it.

The claim that there are 1000s of witnesses to jetliners hitting the WTC is either false, or, at best, unconfirmed and is merely a matter of folklore and/or what people want to believe as a substitute for not actually knowing with any certainty what happened.

The Dick Oliver videos are a perfect confirmation of the foregoing. Those videos show that the claim a jetliner hit the WTC at 500mph is not confirmed by anyone in those videos. Not one single person.

Thanks again for your post,

all the best

Really?

Quote:

AA Flight 11 Approach

At approximately 0845, I, Officers Patrick McNerney and Jose Sanchez, were on routine patrol at the corner of 42nd street and 8th Avenue. As I was looking east on 42nd street, I observed a commercial passenger jet flying over at an extremely low altitude, and heading south. ...I thought that the pilot was attempting to make an emergency landing in the harbor off lower Manhattan. ...It was just east of the Empire State Building, and, to my best estimation, no higher than 500' above it.

During this time, I looked for signs of distress. I was trying to observe the plane, as closely as I could for smoke, fire, or any type of vapor trail. There was none. The landing gear was up and the doors that house the gear closed. The plane was, as I stated, traveling south and was moving at a high rate of speed. It was flying level and straight. The pilot did not appear to be fighting to maintain control of the aircraft. PAPD Sgt William Ross Source (p. 43)

Patrick McNerney concurs:
While there we observed a large plane flying south over Manhattan. We were surprised at how low and the direction of the plane. We discussed the plane and then moments later all police officers were ordered to the police desk and advised us of the situation. Source (p. 32)


Mohawk ironworkers were working 50 floors up at a Lower Manhattan job when an airliner passed within what seemed like 50 feet of their crane on the way to its collision with the World Trade Center about 10 blocks away.

Richard Otto immediately got on his cell phone with Michael Swamp, business manager of Ironworkers Local 440 at the St. Regis (Akwesasne) Mohawk Reservation.

"He called in, all shook up, after the first plane passed," Swamp told Indian Country Today. "He was telling me the wing of a plane had just missed their crane."

As they were talking, the second plane came by, headed for the other World Trade Center Tower.

"He got excited and said another plane was coming," Swamp said. "'Listen, this is going to hit,' Otto said. He started telling people to get out." Source


On the morning of September 11th about 8:45, I was relieved, and a few of us were standing in front of quarters when we noticed a plane came directly over the firehouse maybe around 8:45, somewhere around that time. One of the guys mentioned that the plane looked like it was really low. Before we could really think of what he said, the next thing we heard an explosion. We saw the smoke.
FDNY firefighter Kenneth Escofferey, Ladder 20

We just got relieved after 0900, Fireman Escofrery and myself. We saw the plane coming over, sort of over quarters and then the initial crash. We heard the initial crash. FDNY firefighter George Kozlowski (Note that his time is wrong. He is describing the first plane. Ladder 20 is located at 251 Lafayette Street, north of the WTC.)



Rob Marchesano, a construction foreman, was working at a site at La Guardia Street and West Third. He heard a roar overhead, and saw a plane flying by, low and fast and at an angle that at first made him fear that it would hit his crane. He and his co-workers watched in astonishment and then horror as the plane approached the North Tower of the World Trade Center. He noticed that the plane seemed to tilt at the last second, as though someone wanted the wings to take out as many floors as possible. Source



Now we all heard a plane that sounded like it was in trouble. So everyone stopped what they were doing. It was obvious there was something wrong with the motors. They were like straining, and they were louder than normal. Normally over Manhattan a plane flies very high. We all looked in the sky and didn't see anything, but then for six or seven seconds flying out of the northeast, headed southwest, was this jetliner, like the kind of thing you would go on to go to Miami Beach or Vegas or something like that.

It was flying very low, probably about 350 feet. As it passed over us, it wobbled, just a little bit. Then after six or seven seconds of seeing it -- we lost sight of it, because there were six-story tenements around us so that patch of sky that we saw it for just lasted that small amount of time.

...and then I heard a dull thud; not an explosion but an actual dull thud with a little bit of metal to it. I kind of stopped in my tracks and I thought for a second. I said nah. FDNY lieutenant Robert Larocco, at 10th St. & 2nd Avenue


Oh god. I'm shaking. A plane just went by my window, it was flying WAY too low, and I was thinking, "How ironic," I wrote about this in my book, and it crashed. ...Oh God, people are dead now. Oh god. –Stacy Horn, founder of ECHO, posting at 8:49 on 11 September, 2001 Source


A witness who works in the strategic planning department at The New York Times, Alan Flippen, said that as he came to work on 46th Street just before 9 he saw an American Airlines Boeing 767 flying ``very low in the direction of the World Trade Center towers.'' Source


"It was a large plane flying low," said Robert Pachino, another witness. "There was no engine trouble. He didn't try to maneuver. This plane was on a mission." Source

AA flight 11 Impact

My name is Jeff Benjamin and I was visiting a client, Axcelera Specialty Risk, on the 83rd floor of the North Tower when we observed an approaching aircraft (American Airlines Flt.11)from a distance of aprox. 3-4 miles. At the time we initially spotted the plane, it appeared to be level with us. We could distinctly identify the American airlines insignia and my client commented that perhaps the plane had taken off from Kennedy and was experiencing mechanical problems. As the plane approached us it seemed to climb. I stood up from the conference table and walked over to the window assuming as everyone did that there was no imminent danger. As the plane came closer we could see that it was traveling at a high rate of speed and the sound of the engines intensified. Immediately before impact we could see images in the cockpit and the plane banked sharply. A split second later we heard an echoing shot, fell to the floor and observed a fireball followed by debris which struck the side of the building. At the same time you could feel the building sway every so slightly for a brief moment. We immediately retreated towards the main part of the office where we noticed a huge fireball shooting out of the elevator shaft which quickly disappeared. Source


From a window on the 61st floor in the north tower, Ezra Aviles had seen everything. He knew it was no bomb. His window faced north, and he saw the plane tearing through the skies, heading straight for the tower. It had crashed into the building over his head-how far, he was not sure. Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn "102 minutes, The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers." Henry Holt & Co. New York.; 2005.


I heard the loud roar of airplane engines outside. I turned in my chair so that I could see out the window. About three or four plane lengths away, I saw a huge jetliner coming at the building. I said, "That guy is low!" I spoke loud enough that my colleague sitting in the cubicle next to mine heard me. I saw the nose of the plane and then the smooth underbelly and one of the wings. It was just above me, a little bit to the right, and slightly bent so the wing over me was higher than the other wing. I couldn't see any windows or recognise any markings but I noticed the landing gear was up. It had just registered that this was no small plane when it entered our building two floors above me. –George SleighSource



"I saw the plane come in. My office faces north. I just finished my coffee and I heard my friend say, 'Oh no, oh no.' This plane was coming right at us, then it went up and hit the upper floors. –Nicholas Scinicariello, 86th floor Source

I begin preparing reports for another day of trading at the NYMEX,... horrific explosion. An immediate change in the air pressure. A ghostly column of air shoots like a canon into the office. The front door slams shut. Papers are whipped into the air. I’m thrown off my chair and to the ground. My boss jumps out of his office a second prior to the explosion. He had watched, in horrific disbelief, the entire event as the plane narrowly missed the empire state building and set a direct course for our building. The explosion sends the tower shaking furiously, lurching back and forth with sickening vengeance for maybe five or ten seconds. I think we may die. The building may topple over, or crumble. Finally it stops. The building is still standing. Everybody stares at each other, no idea of what happened or what to say. Speculations about an explosion, a bomb. No, it was a plane, our boss says. A commercial jet. Corky Adams, on the 85th floor of the north tower


Members of Ladder 7 as seen in the Jules Naudet flyover and impact footage. Video excerpt: http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2...tc1-strike.avi


A. Okay. I was working the night before in the 1st Battalion, and sometime about 8:15 or so in the morning we got a call to Lispenard and Church for a gas leak in the street. We were there for a while checking on the gas leak, and then we heard the loud roar of the plane come over, and we turned around and we looked and we saw the plane coming down, heading south towards the Trade Center, and made a direct hit on the Trade Center.

Q. You actually saw it hit?

A. I saw it hit. Within about ten seconds after that or so I gave the first report on the radio and transmitted a second alarm for a plane into the Trade Center... FDNY Battalion Chief Joseph Pfeifer

Ken Siebert, who works at 195 Broadway, also not far from the World Trade Center, said he had come out of the Church Street subway station as the second plane approached the center.

"I saw the plane bank and turn," Mr. Siebert said. "He turned, definitely turned, and banked it in there."

To Mr. Siebert, such movements indicated to him that terrorists were piloting the aircraft. Source



On Tues, 9/11/01, at approximately 0846 hours, P.O. J. Camera and myself were standing on the North East corner of Jersey Ave & 12th St., facing the World Trade Center. We observed an aircraft, flying south, slam into the top of the north tower. The concussion from the resulting explosion was felt were (sic) we stood. PAPD PO David LeClaire Source (P. 85)


We were under the impression he looked like he was going down, but we didn't hear any mechanical difficulty. We couldn't figure out why an American Airlines plane would be so low in downtown Manhattan. We sort of expected him to veer off and go into the Hudson. But he just rose a little bit. His altitude leveled off adn he was headed straight for the Trade Center. So just before he got to the Trade Center it seemed as though he gained power. We were just watching this airplane on target for the World Trade Center. All of a sudden, boom he disappear into the Trade Center. You hear this sickening noise as if two pieces of fiberglass had hit. You hear this loud explosion. FDNY lieutenant William Walsh


I just came on that day during a 24. I relieved the chauffeur probably about 8:20 or so. We got a box on Church and Leonard of an odor of gas. So Engine 7 and Ladder 1, Battalion 1, responds. It turned out to be a false alarm. As we were at the box, a plane passes us overhead real low. You could hear it; you could feel it. We turned around, and it just impacted the building, building one. With that, everybody got on the rig. We started driving. FDNY firefighter Thomas Spinard


I turned and saw a plane coming at an angle from the direction of the Statue of Liberty. It was low and a little to the right of where I was standing, but almost directly overhead. I followed it until I saw it go into the second tower. –Tonya Young Source



I watched the first plane fly downtown and collide with the north tower and almost immediately began to take pictures. These are selected for the significant moments they show. –Denny Tillman Source



"I saw the plane out of the corner of my eye. You're accustomed to a plane taking up a certain amount of space in the sky. This plane was huge. I just froze and watched the plane.

"It was coming down the Hudson. It was banking toward me. I saw the tops of both wings," he said. "It was turning to make sure it hit the intended target. It plowed in about 20 stories down dead center into the north face of the building. Andrew Lenney Source

Steven Schiraldi, a Wall Street financial manager, was reached by phone in New York moments after the second tower of the World Trade Center was hit by a plane.

"I saw the second plane fly right past my window," he said.

Then he cut the conversation short with the comment: "I have to go now. They told us to evacuate the building. There is complete chaos here."

Later he told Catholic News Service that after he saw the plane fly past his office window, he watched it crash into the trade center. "It disintegrated on impact. My heart was pounding. I've never been so scared in my life." Source


At 8:45, David Blackford was walking toward work in a downtown building. He heard a jet engine and glanced up. "I saw this plane screaming overhead," he said. "I thought it was too low. I thought it wasn't going to clear the tower."

Within moments, his fears were confirmed. The plane slammed into the north face of 1 World Trade Center. As he watched, he said, "You could see the concussion move up the building." Source

I was talking to my partner, Hank Ramos, and saw in front of me while we were about, I would say around Pearl Street, we had a view of the World Trade Center, which was only a few blocks away and I stopped him and I said to look at that plane, that it was flying extremely low and that it looked like it was about to hit. A few seconds later it did hit. FDNY EMT Alexander Loutsky


We were returning back there from Battalion 4 and we were going up, I believe it's Pearl Street, and my partner Alex Loutsky and I, we witnessed the first plane hit the first tower. Saw it flying low and we thought, that plane's flying kind of low, and then it hit the building and we went over the radio and we told central that we had witnessed a plane hitting the building, and at first she didn't believe us, but then other units started saying they saw the same thing and then we proceeded straight over to the Trade Center. FDNY EMT Ralph "Hank" Ramos


We were on the 59th Street bridge when out of the corner of our eye we say the first plane hit the World Trade Center. Looking south from the 59th Street bridge, we noticed the smoke. FDNY EMT Marc Cohen


From the union office we were going over to the city, a bunch of us in a van, and we took the 59th Street bridge. As we were driving over the 59th Street bridge, just looking out the window, we saw a plane hit the World Trade Center, what we thought was a plane, and out of disbelief, I was like did anybody else just see that? They're like what? I said a plane just hit the Trade Center. Everybody was like, oh, yeah, right. When they looked, you could see the flames and the smoke starting and they're like, wow, it must have been one of the little planes. I said, no, it looked like a jet. FDNY EMT Kenneth Davis


Looking over the southern tip of Manhatten, we could see the United jet roaring in, just skimming the tops of the buildings. Normally, when you see a jet that close, it is taking off or landing and is moving relatively slowly. This one was at full throttle. I remember yelling something like "What's he doing there?" but it went quickly behind us and was blocked from view by the buildings along the water. We didn't see the impact, but we could hear it and feel it. –Bruce Kratofill Source


Someone next to me said that she saw an American Airlines plane fly directly above her floor, the 44th, and hit the building. Prior to that, I had assumed missiles had struck the buildings. Jim CampbellSource


On the morning of September 11th we were operating a box up on Church Street Near Canal. There was an odor of gas in the area. While we were out operating, we heard the first plane coming in. I turned around and I watched the plane crash into the north tower. FDNY firefighter Joseph Casaliggi



Victor Rao had just stepped off the elevator on the 11th floor of a building a block away at the corner of Murray and Church streets, humming a "silly Beatles song," when he heard a sound like a low-flying plane.

"I turned and said to my friend, `Man, that plane is flying low,' " he recalled hours later. "Before I could even get the last word out, it hit the side of the building and just blew the other side out." Source

So I smoke a cigarette and walk up towards the subway station at City Hall. I remember drinking my cup off coffee, looking up and telling myself, man this plane is flying low. The next thing I saw was the plane hitting the first tower. Eric Pelt Source


At roughly 8:45 AM, I heard the very loud sound of a plane approaching. The sound reminded me of the diving noise made by planes in old war films - a high pitched, mechanical whine. I knew immediately that a plane was about to crash. I the mini-blinds of my bedroom window in time to see a plane heading in my general direction. All I could think of was, "Oh my God, this plane is going to hit my building." The whining noise of the plane became defeaning as it sped by. I arrived at my dining room window just in time to see the plane smash into the North Tower of the World Trade Center. I cannot explain my horror in seeing the fireball, in hearing the explosion, in feeling the ground shake and my building sway beneath my feet. Trina Source

About 9:03 a.m., as I was still looking north toward the Trade Center, I heard the very loud sound of a jet passenger plane flying very low behind me. I spun around and saw the plane directly above the Statue of Liberty and about to fly over our heads. Then, the plane avoided a high-rise just north of us and flew into the south side of the South Tower at about the 70th floor level. The huge plane disappeared into the even larger building, and a huge ball of flame and smoke erupted. –Mike Penzer Source

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by twinstead

I'm still waiting for the first time a defense lawyer tries the tactic of "well, these 2 bystanders who weren't looking at my client didn't see my client kill that man, therefore it didn't happen. All those witnesses who saw the murder must be lying".

Excellent.

And look at this video still: There clearly are cats in it. Is the jury open to the consideration that the sound that some describe as "gunshots from a semi-automatic weapon, medium caliber" is really that of a cat?

[Sam.I.Am]

Originally Posted by Oystein

And look at this video still: There clearly are cats in it. Is the jury open to the consideration that the sound that some describe as "gunshots from a semi-automatic weapon, medium caliber" is really that of a cat?

Hopefully our Horatius isn't on that particular jury...

[Macgyver1968]

I'm still waiting for my scotch from our lurker....in a bottle with a straw please.

[dafydd]

Jammonious,are you going to keep this up for the rest of your life? 99.999999999999999 percent of people know that they were planes involved.If you kept this up for a hundred years you will never convince anyone,outside of a few nutcases,and they will die off as the years go by.Do you have another,less obsessive hobby to pursue? Drop this,get out more,you'll feel much better.If you can't get rid of this bee in your bonnet by your own efforts,get medical help.Really.

[CompusMentus]

Originally Posted by dafydd

If you can't get rid of this bee in your bonnet by your own efforts,get medical help.Really.

But perhaps the bee in jams bonnet sounds like a moth or maybe a mole.


Compus

[CompusMentus]

I've uploaded part of the Dick Oliver/WNYW broadcast onto you-tube. It covers roughly 10 minutes of that mornings live output from the interview with the young lad and baby, Rosa Cardona Rivera and Jim Friedl right up to the second plane impact.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Compus

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by CompusMentus

I've uploaded part of the Dick Oliver/WNYW broadcast onto you-tube. It covers roughly 10 minutes of that mornings live output from the interview with the young lad and baby, Rosa Cardona Rivera and Jim Friedl right up to the second plane impact.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Compus

Ahh Our Lady of the Path Train (OLPT) is good for something after all - how could we overlook that she really puts the whole theory to rest?
Let's listen closely (starting 0:45):

Dick Oliver: Did you see what happened? What happpened?
Our Lady of the Path Train (OLPT): Well I was on the PATH train and there was a huge explosion sound and everyone came out. A large section of the building had blown out around like the 80th floor.
Dick Oliver: What is hit by something or was it something inside?
OLPT: It was inside! Because it looked – everything was coming out. All the windows were coming out, all the papers...
Dick Oliver: What was on the sidewalk?
OLPT: I didn't see anything
Dick Oliver: Are there any people hurt, do you know?
OLPT: I just ran, and everyone on the Path train just ran, I don't know if anyone was hurt, but assume there were because all the windows were blown out

Ok, she says it for all to hear, and no amount of rationalizing and group think can discuss it away:
It was inside! Because it looked – everything was coming out. All the windows were coming out, all the papers...


That about should put any DEW theory to rest - unless you assume that that DEW was placed inside the tower.


Can we go home now?

[CompusMentus]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Ahh Our Lady of the Path Train (OLPT) is good for something after all

And what is that we see cruising by in the background? Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No! It's *********** HUSH-A-BUS!






Compus

[jammonius]

Originally Posted by A W Smith

Really?

The lengthy post to which this reponds is a simplistic and misleading excerpt from Mark Roberts' jingoistic, compilation website. Mark Roberts is considered to be the ObiWanKenobe of 9/11 debunkers.

Mark Roberts has an agenda and does not have objectivity and I will here demonstrate that he has no objectivity and is not, therefore, a reliable source for 9/11 information. He is, instead, a propaganda artist or propagandist.

First of all, one must consider that Mark Roberts does not quote or reference Dick Oliver, let alone Our Lady from the Path Train:



Indeed, Lurkers, this is a very important point.

The Dick Oliver video contains the very best video footage of the hole in the North Tower. It is so good that anchor, Jim Ryan, is able to declare, in substance, and as quoted exactly elsewhere in this thread, that he sees NO PLANE in that "live shot."

Mark Roberts quotes neither Our Lady from the Path Train, nor any of the other witnesses who mention ""bomb" or "explosion." Indeed, not one witness walked right up to Dick Oliver's camera said "plane." Not one. And, there is no way to dodge, disguise or explain away that fact and maintain any objectivity.

Let us examine Mark Roberts sources, one by one:

The first two sources from the stupidly long Mark Roberts excerpt that AWSmith has foisted upon us relies on the following sources that are compilations of some police reports. Now, police reports are "OK" as possible evidence, but, keep in mind, they are secondary. People call the police and they say things the police then write down in the reports. Still, they have some degree of reliability and are OK to refer to.

Here are the links for the first two sources relied on in the lengthy post:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-...-reports01.pdf
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/pa-...-reports02.pdf

As most of them are police reports, it was misleading for the poster to quote only those that refer to "a plane."

There are lots of reports in those two police report compilations that consist in about 200pages of police reports. Many of them refer only to an "explosion" or something other than a plane, let alone a jetliner.

For instance, in the one found right after the one that Mark Roberts quotes, we have this:

A memorandum from PO James E. Hall # 1529 to Lt. E. Gutch stating:

"On Sept. 11, 2001 the undersigned officer was assigned to the CVI unit. Also assigned that day was PO A. Niedermeyer #1537 and PO J. Rivero #1623. While conducting a bus inspection detail in the location of W 41st and 11th Ave. at approx. 0845, we received a radio transmission stating an explosion occurred at the location of the World Trade Center."

While Mark Roberts may quote some who say "plane" he omits any mention whatsoever of those that merely say "explosion". By doing that, Mark Roberts engages in mischaracterizing the actual evidence of what happened on 9/11.

Indeed, are any of you Lurkers in the least bit perplexed, as yet, as to why Jim Freidl was seen on national teevee, but Our Lady from the Path Train was only shown on local teevee and, in fact, seconds after she gave her statement, which, itself, followed four others, as well as Dick Oliver's comments indicating he didn't know whether a plane hit or not, that excellent on the scene resource was totally blacked-out and not mentioned or picked up. Instead, we were then given Rosa Cardona Rivera and Sean Murtagh, as if Our Lady from the Path Train and Our Man with Baby Girl and David Stollick, to name some, didn't exist or matter.

The coverage on the day of 9/11 was, then, demonstrably edited and biasede. So, too, the Mark Roberts website is likewise biased.

The sources that he, himself, relied on, contain just as many accounts that support the NO PLANE claim and/or contradict the issue of PLANE SPOTTING as otherwise, yet Mark Roberts does not let you know that.

Most of the sources relied on by Mark Roberts aren't even up to the standards of police reports, that might be reliable and admissible as evidence. Here's a list (and it is a long one) of the inadmissible NEWSPAPER articles that Mark Roberts relies on that are not reliable and not usable as evidence:

http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=262
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...8407-2001Sep15
http://nymag.com/news/features/20288/
http://911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/7639
http://www.amazon.com/September-11-H.../dp/0385507682
http://web.archive.org/web/200302220...611sep13.story
http://www.iht.com/articles/2001/09/12/myork_ed3_.php
http://www.amazon.com/September-11-H.../dp/0385507682
http://www.911digitalarchive.org/images/details/3105
http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2002/br...orks/wsj1.html
http://www.archden.org/dcr/archive/2...01091906wn.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/12/ny...2011c6&ei=5070
http://www.bjkresearch.com/ny
http://www.noevalleyvoice.com/2001/D...uary/JimC.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200412150...1/backyard.asp
http://old.911digitalarchive.org/smi...an/details/113
http://old.911digitalarchive.org/smi...an/details/223
http://www.nabe.com/am2001/penzer.html

The next group of sources compiled by Mark Roberts and copied and pasted by AWSmith in an attempt to fool Lurkers into thinking AWSmith had posted up a lot of witnesses to the claim a jetliner hit the North Tower is a group of 10 out of the 503 First Responders.

To be sure, that grouping of 503 First Responders is a proper source. Indeed, I am the one who has indicated that there are those within that group who said they saw a plane.

However, there are also those in that group who said they saw NO PLANE.

Mark Roberts nowhere mentions that there are about as many people within the 503 First Responders who said they either saw and heard NO PLANE or saw a missile or a small plane or something other than a jetliner.

Mark Roberts does not do an objective assessment of those 503 First Responder statements by any means.

Furthermore, what is even more glaring, perhaps, is that if you look at even that group of 10 that was included in the long quote posted by AWSmith, you will find that among them, while some may have seemingly said they saw the first plane, their locations were not ideal, in all instances, for such spotting; and, many of them were in a position to then see the second plane, if it had been there, and those self-same witnesses who Mark Roberts relies on to say a plane hit the North Tower, then turn around and say they SAW NO SUCH THING HAPPEN AT THE SOUTH TOWER, EVEN THOUGH, BY THEN, THEY WERE ON THE SCENE!

Let's go through the list of the 10 that come from the group of official statements from the 503 First Responders:

FDNY firefighter Kenneth Escofferey, Ladder 20 -- He does not actually say he saw he saw plane hit the North Tower, he makes the inference that it did. And, as to the second attack, he says only that he heard a loud explosion and does not indicate he thought a jetliner was involved.

Mark Roberts does not tell you that, Lurkers.

FDNY firefighter George Kozlowski -- His statement is one of many that has a redaction, that is to say, some part of it 'blacked-out' so that we do not know what all he actually said. Furthermore, part of his statment is very supportive of the claim the towers were destroyed by directed energy weaponry (DEW).

FDNY lieutenant Robert Larocco -- This person does not say he saw plane hit

FDNY Battalion Chief Joseph Pfeifer -- We have elsewhere discussed Pfeifer. I rely on him as a witness.

FDNY lieutenant William Walsh -- We have elsewhere discussed Walsh. I rely on him as a witness.

FDNY firefighter Thomas Spinard -- Ditto.

FDNY EMT Alexander Loutsky -- While this person may have said things supportive of the claim a plane hit the North Tower, he is one who, after actually then arriving on the scene, does not see or hear a plane hit the South Tower.

Here's what he actually said:

"AROUND THAT TIME DIDNT AT THE TIME REALIZE IT BUT FROM WHERE WE WERE AT WHICH WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTER ON THE WEST SIDE HIGHWAY AREA THERE WAS AN EXPLOSION AND LOT OF DEBRIS STARTED COMING DOWN APPARENTLY THAT WAS THE SECOND PLANE THAT HIT"


FDNY EMT Ralph "Hank" Ramos -- Here's another one that saw NO PLANE hit the South Tower:

"We went down West Street and parked at West
and Liberty. There was -- Lieutenant D'Avila was
there. There were several other units already on the
scene and there was a wave of people running out of the
building, running towards us. Stopped like about maybe
4 people, put them into our vehicle and I was treating
them and in the process of doing that, the second plane
hit right over top of us and all the debris started
falling down on top of us."

Note that language: He never stopped doing what he was doing and obviously was just as oblivious to a jetliner being 800ft above his head at 550mph as Dick Oliver was oblivious to a jetliner being 1000ft at 500mph above him.

The witnesses are, indeed, hugely consistent about not having the foggiest clue a jetliner at an earsplitting 140dB was right above them.

The descriptions from on-the-scene people is consistent only with an explosion and not with a jetliner being present. We are seeing this with utter and complete consistency, posters and lurkers.

FDNY EMT Marc Cohen -- Here's what this person actually said that is nowhere given by Mark Roberts or AWSmith:

"IF YOUD START WITH WHERE YOU WERE AT THE
TIME OF THE FIRST IMPACT THE FIRST PLANE
MY PARTNER AND KENNY DAVIS WHO IS ALSO
PARAMEDIC HERE AT EMS BATTALION 22 WE WERE IN THE
CITY PROBABLY ABOUT 700 OCLOCK THAT WAS THE
PRIMARY ELECTION DAY AND WE WERE PLANNING TO WORK FOR
MARK GREEN HIS CAMPAIGN WE WERE ON THE 59TH STREET
BRIDGE WHEN OUT OF THE CORNER OF OUR EYE WE SAW THE
FIRST PLANE HIT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER LOOKING SOUTH
FROM THE 59TH STREET BRIDGE WE NOTICED THE SMOKE"

That is nowhere near a convincing statement that the witness actually saw a plane hit the North Tower. He actually saw the smoke. That is what he can be said actually to have seen from that far away.

FDNY EMT Kenneth Davis -- Here's what he actually had to say:

"As we were driving over the 59th Street
bridge, just looking out the window, we saw a plane hit
the World Trade Center, what we thought was a plane,
and out of disbelief, I was like did anybody else just
see that? They're like what? I said a plane just hit
the Trade Center. Everybody was like, oh, yeah,
right. When they looked, you could see the flames and
the smoke starting and they're like, wow, it must have
been one of the little planes. I said, no, it looked
like a jet."

Needless to say, his statement is obviously tentative.

The last sources given to us by Mark Roberts as foisted on us by AWSmith is from some jingoistic book and some youtube video:

Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn "102 minutes, The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers." Henry Holt &Co. New York.; 2005.

http://italy.indymedia.org/uploads/2...tc1-strike.avi

Posters and Lurkers, you now have an objective assessment of what happened at the North Tower on 9/11. There was an explosion. That is the only thing that the witnesses are actually agreeing on.

[Oystein]

By the way:
this is 99 Hudson Street - the building from where Rosa Cardona Rivera witnessed the plane and the crash:

http://listings.jlgordonadvisors.com...4726&bview=pix

She says was on the 14th floor - that would be the recessed part near the top.

[twinstead]

Originally Posted by jammonius

Posters and Lurkers, you now have an objective assessment of what happened at the North Tower on 9/11. There was an explosion. That is the only thing that the witnesses are actually agreeing on.

No, what we had there was very transparent closing statements from Guido, the shady defense lawyer, desperately trying to get his obviously guilty client off a murder rap.

Nice try

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by jammonius

[silly bold-face+itaöics+size 2 removed due to childishness]

Posters and Lurkers, you now have an objective assessment of what happened at the North Tower on 9/11. There was an explosion. That is the only thing that the witnesses are actually agreeing on.

Nothing wrong with that. Since some people were on a subway train 80 feet underground, it is very reasonable that they would not report seeing a plane, even if there was a plane.

However,, reporting "an explosion" inside the tower is 100% compatible with "a large fast jetplane flying into the tower", because - what else would you expect the offices and the three other sides of the building to behave like if you ram a huge plane into that space within a fraction of a second, with many tons of fuel on board? Of course there would be an explosion, and everybody would agree on that!



Now, lurkers, posters: Let's hear how jammonius explains how the explosion that every witness agrees upon would have been effected with a DEW!

[sylvan8798]

I think we can safely add people with backyard telescopes to the list of people in on the cover up of the DEW spewing orbiting building destructo device:

http://www.aolnews.com/science/artic...rth%2F19460808

[Oystein]

Two days ago, I was sitting at a street cafe table in the middle of my home town's historic central (market) square (pedestrian zone), drinking Belgian beer, when a NATO E-3A 4-engine jetplane (on the basis of Boeing 707) with four old-fashioned (i.e. loud) Pratt and Whitney TF33-PW-100A turbofan engines, 21,500 lbf (93 kN) each, passed by, again probably on landing approach to Geilenkirchen Air Base, which is about 20-25km away. I have seen them fly fairly low a few times recently; my friend and I estimated an elevation of 300 meters, angle from horizon of 30°, hence distance on the ground 600m, and distance from us to plane 670 meters or 2250 feet.

No doubt, they were not going at full throttle and certainly slow.

I just want to report three observations:

- Although we had an unobstructed line of sight, the plane with its 4 outdated and much louder than state-of-the-art engines was merely whispering in the sky at 2500 feet away or less
- I did not see any other person react to the plane at all, even though there must have been around 150 people on the open square who were enjoying a warm and sunny late afternoon in the various cafés, bars and restaurants.
- At least half of them would not have been in a position to see the plane, even if they heard, because they had their backs to, were sitting too close to a building (all of which have 2 stories above ground floor plus a slanted roof story), or were sitting underneath a tree or sun-umbrella.

Do we have any reason to assume that flight 11 would have been on high throttle during the last few seconds before impact?