BREAKING NEWS: Tripartite 'Proximity' Talks to Resume

webfusion · 1st May 2010, 08:34 PM

United States' Special Envoy George Mitchell is going to be kick-starting negotiations during the coming week or so.

Arab League Oversight Committee has voted to approve the process commencing.

There will be four months of back-and-forth tripartite US-mediated talks. The goal is to get to Direct Dual Negotiations.

Anyone here on the forum want to weigh in about what they believe is the primary issue that can most easily be resolved, and thus, be the opening element of these talks?

WildCat · 1st May 2010, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Anyone here on the forum want to weigh in about what they believe is the primary issue that can most easily be resolved, and thus, be the opening element of these talks?

That there will be punch and pie at the next meeting?

Tsukasa Buddha · 1st May 2010, 11:18 PM

Israeli apartheid.

Doctor Evil · 2nd May 2010, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

Israeli apartheid.

Huh? Care to explain?

Skeptic · 2nd May 2010, 11:01 AM

It should be pointed out that it's the Palestinians who are not willing to talk directly, not the Israelies. So if there is any "apartheid" here, it's on their side.

Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

Giz · 2nd May 2010, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

It should be pointed out that it's the Palestinians who are not willing to talk directly, not the Israelies. So if there is any "apartheid" here, it's on their side.

Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

Look, negotiations are good. Surely all non neo-con warmongers can agree on that.

If Israel will only negotiate with people who don't want to destroy it, will halt attacks on it, and don't harbor ambitions to destroy it... then there will be no negotiations.

Therefore, Israel is bad, QED.

WildCat · 2nd May 2010, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Giz

If Israel will only negotiate with people who don't want to destroy it, will halt attacks on it, and don't harbor ambitions to destroy it... then there will be no negotiations.

I though that violent extremists were just a tiny percentage of Palestinians?

The Fool · 2nd May 2010, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

It should be pointed out that it's the Palestinians who are not willing to talk directly, not the Israelies. So if there is any "apartheid" here, it's on their side.

Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

Hi web, welcome back....you went away for quite a while, lying on a beach in the south pacific?

anyway. It appears your thread has got "skeptic" horny

as to the talks.....its my view that neither side is willing to negotiate in good faith so good luck to a US imposed solution. Although I expect wildcat, "skeptic" and the other lads to throw up a fair display of bluster.

Thunder · 8th May 2010, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

The new State of Palestine should have Jews in it, and they should be treated with all the rights and privelages that Israeli-Arabs have.

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 05:24 AM

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/intern...icle426162.ece
A mere 24-hours after the talks had officially begun, the Palestinians have reportedly told the USA they will abandon the negotiations due to construction continuing on 14 privately-built homes in a neighborhood of Jerusalem (Ras el-Amud).

Apparently, anyone with a hammer & nails and some two-by-fours can disrupt the National Interests of the USA, Israel and Palestinians.
Every Monday and Thursday there will be new efforts by all sorts of antagonists (on both sides) to derail the talks, since it's so easy to do so. The Palestinians will be unable to get anywhere, if they don't just focus on the Big Picture and instead get bogged down in minutae.

Darth Rotor · 10th May 2010, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/intern...icle426162.ece
A mere 24-hours after the talks had officially begun, the Palestinians have reportedly told the USA they will abandon the negotiations due to construction continuing on 14 privately-built homes in a neighborhood of Jerusalem (Ras el-Amud).

Apparently, anyone with a hammer & nails and some two-by-fours can disrupt the National Interests of the USA, Israel and Palestinians.

Every Monday and Thursday there will be new efforts by all sorts of antagonists (on both sides) to derail the talks, since it's so easy to do so. The Palestinians will be unable to get anywhere, if they don't just focus on the Big Picture and instead get bogged down in minutae.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32982101...deastn_africa/

It looks as though the Pals and Israelis are doing something called "indirect talks" which is ... progress ... or all that can be managed at the moment.

Quote:

But no new Israeli housing projects in East Jerusalem have been approved since March, raising speculation Netanyahu has imposed a de facto moratorium that could keep talks ticking while avoiding a showdown with his far-right coalition partners

Nothing will happen quickly, however, something may happen in time.

DR

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 07:40 AM

i expect these talks to go no where. any peace plan that involves evacuating hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers will lead to a low-level or even full civil war in Israel.

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 09:54 AM

Why does there need to be any 'evacuation' at all? The stated intention is to retain the areas where the majority of Israeli citizens now live throughout these Territories, as an integral part of the State of Israel.

In other words, redraw the old demarcations and eliminate those 1949 Lines.
If I'm living in Alfe Menashe, I won't have to move anywhere. I'll become "gerrymandered" into Israel. Same thing with those living on French Hill, or Gilo, or even Ramat Shlomo.

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 10:24 AM

I have no problem, for the most part, with Israel annexing parts of the West Bank in exchange for parts of Israel proper. And I also have no problem with the rest of the Israelis staying in their homes and becoming Palestinian citizens.

But Israel needs to also compensate the Palestinians for lands they annexed in 1967 and unilaterally turned into "Jerusalem".

WildCat · 10th May 2010, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

The new State of Palestine should have Jews in it, and they should be treated with all the rights and privelages that Israeli-Arabs have.

So Jews in Palestine will have more rights than Arabs do?

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

I have no problem, for the most part, with Israel annexing parts of the West Bank in exchange for parts of Israel proper.

That is the entire focus of these current talks. The question has been, and remains, will there be ANY give and take amongst the various Islamic Fundamentalist rejectionist factions regarding redrawing and re-demarcating those obsolete 1949 Cease-Fire Lines? Sure, you're welcome to present any evidence showing such flexibility on the part of HAMAS, et al.

Quote:

And I also have no problem with the rest of the Israelis staying in their homes and becoming Palestinian citizens.

Good thing that YOU have no problem with it.
I can pretty much bet that plenty of Palestinians would have a problem with it. Especially those Palestinians who are affiliated with HAMAS, or Jihad Islami, or any number of other powerfully-determined organizations whose aim is to reject completely any Jewish hegemony in Palestine. Whatsoever.

Quote:

But Israel needs to also compensate the Palestinians for lands they annexed in 1967 and unilaterally turned into "Jerusalem".

What sort of 'compensation' would you suggest for the Temple Mount remaining under Jewish security & control? Who would you get to agree to that? The WAQF? HAMAS? Anyone?

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

What sort of 'compensation' would you suggest for the Temple Mount remaining under Jewish security & control? Who would you get to agree to that? The WAQF? HAMAS? Anyone?

i dont mean the Old City. I meant all those areas east, south, and north of the city that have had NOTHING to do with Jerusalem for 3,000 years, but were suddenly annexed by Israel and re-named "Yerushalayim".

any parts of these lands that Israel keeps...should be swapped with lands of equal size in Israel proper. its called justice.

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

So Jews in Palestine will have more rights than Arabs do?

no. Jews in Palestine should be treated just as equally and farely as Arabs in Israel are treated.

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

I don't mean the Old City.

Then you are being dishonest.

There is NOTHING more important to the entire conflcit being resolved, than the Temple Mount. (Haram al-Sharif)
Al-Aqsa is the central or crucial point of contention.
You cannot dismiss it with a wave of your hand by just saying "I don't mean the Old City."

Quote:

I meant all those areas east, south, and north of the city that have had NOTHING to do with Jerusalem for 3,000 years, but were suddenly annexed by Israel and re-named "Yerushalayim".

The Jerusalem District (sanjak) of the Ottoman Empire certainly extended into the surrounding hills. You surely must realize that?

Furthermore, what about Mt. Scopus? Do you feel that there is some legitimate right for the Jews to have a presence there? It wasn't "suddenly annexed" -- there is a valid Jewish title to that specific part of Jerusalem (see: Hebrew University).

Quote:

Any parts of these lands that Israel keeps...should be swapped with lands of equal size in Israel proper. its called justice.

OK, I'm convinced.
See, that was easy.
Now, can you get the HAMAS to sign on to that?

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Then you are being dishonest.

There is NOTHING more important to the entire conflcit being resolved, than the Temple Mount.

that's very nice.

but the fact remains that Israel unileraterally and illegally annexed West Bank lands that have NEVER had anything to do with the City of Jerusalem, for 3,000 years.

this annexation tripled the size of the city, and now right-wing Zionists have the chutzpah to bitch about how giving back these lands is tantamount to "dividing the Jewish people's heritage".

Chutzpah and lies..to the max.

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 01:33 PM

The addition of Texas added to the size of the United States.

So?

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

The addition of Texas added to the size of the United States.

the people of Texas were made citizens, and given full equality.

not so....for the areas of the West Bank annexed to Jerusalem.

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

the people of Texas were made citizens, and given full equality.

not so....for the areas of the West Bank annexed to Jerusalem.

That is simply untrue.

The Arabs of Jerusalem carry Israeli ID's, and when Israel gained full control of Jerusalem in the 1967 Six-Day War, the Arabs in East Jerusalem were offered a chance to become full Israeli citizens in all legal respects. They primarily refused, although East Jerusalem Arabs receive still Israeli social security and heath benefits. They're allowed to vote in local — but not national — elections. They have the freedom to travel throughout Israel without special permits.

WildCat · 10th May 2010, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

They have the freedom to travel throughout Israel without special permits.

Except on Jew-only roads, right?

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

They're allowed to vote in local — but not national — elections. They have the freedom to travel throughout Israel without special permits.

they can't vote in national elections?? why the **** not???

don't they pay taxes? why do they not have the right to vote for the Knesset?

do you know what they call it when you are a racial minority and do not have full political rights?

WildCat · 10th May 2010, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

they can't vote in national elections?? why the **** not???

don't they pay taxes? why do they not have the right to vote for the Knesset?

do you know what they call it when you are a racial minority and do not have full political rights?

Puerto Rico?

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Puerto Rico?

let me know when Israel gives the Palestinians of East Jerusalem a referendum on whether they should become full citizens of Israel, stay with the status-quo, or become part of the West Bank again.

yeah...you just let me know.

WildCat · 10th May 2010, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

let me know when Israel gives the Palestinians of East Jerusalem a referendum on whether they should become full citizens of Israel, stay with the status-quo, or become part of the West Bank again.

yeah...you just let me know.

I love the sound of goalposts moving! Sounds like... victory!

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

I love the sound of goalposts moving! Sounds like... victory!

every several years, Puerto Rico votes to keep Commonwealth status, become the 51st State, or become an independent country.

let me know when the Palestinians of East Jerusalem are given such an opportunity. until then, your BS analogy is just that....... bull ****.

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic

so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.

another amazing strawman...from der Strawman Koenige.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...350467,00.html

A Haifa University survey investigating Arabs and Jews' views on one another reveals disturbing results.

The poll showed that 75 percent of Jewish students believe that Arabs are uneducated people, are uncivilized and are unclean.

mortimer · 10th May 2010, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

every several years, Puerto Rico votes to keep Commonwealth status, become the 51st State, or become an independent country.

let me know when the Palestinians of East Jerusalem are given such an opportunity. until then, your BS analogy is just that....... bull ****.

The analogy is directly related to the post you made. Every single factor you singled out is directly analogous to Puerto Rico. Your inclusion of voting for various political status options in this post is yet another move of the goal posts.

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by mortimer

The analogy is directly related to the post you made. Every single factor you singled out is directly analogous to Puerto Rico. Your inclusion of voting for various political status options in this post is yet another move of the goal posts.

Puerto Ricans have the right to decide their fate..on a pretty regular basis.

Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not have such right.

Therefore, the analogy is bull ****.

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not have such right ((to decide their fate..on a pretty regular basis.))

Therefore, the analogy is bull ****.

Incredibly enough, the facts of the situation do not really support your claim.

Only a miniscule percentage vote in the municipal elections. Most refuse to, on the grounds that it would be tantamount to recognizing Israeli sovereignity. .... The PLO/PA Boycott of the Democratic Process in Jerusalem is an ongoing tactic to de-legitimize the de-jure control Israel has there.

Going back to the last time elections were held in the Palestinian National Authority
--- 2006 ---
Associated Press:
RAMALLAH, West Bank — The Israeli Cabinet on Sunday (January 15, 2006) unanimously approved voting by those living in east Jerusalem for Palestinian parliamentary elections.

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Incredibly enough, the facts of the situation do not really support your claim.

Israel controls and rules East Jerusalem. The Knesset rules this city. Not giving the Palestinians the right to vote in Knesset elections is nothing less than Apartheid.

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 08:34 PM

The Palestinians of Jerusalem want to disassociate from Israel, and prefer to boycott elections held by Israel, and not declare themselves "Israelis" ---- so, your suggestion that they would WANT to vote for Knesset (thereby providing legitimacy for that body) is not supported by the facts.

Thunder · 10th May 2010, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

The Palestinians of Jerusalem want to disassociate from Israel, and prefer to boycott elections held by Israel, and not declare themselves "Israelis" ---- so, your suggestion that they would WANT to vote for Knesset (thereby providing legitimacy for that body) is not supported by the facts.

anyone who pays taxes to Israel and who lives under Israeli sovereignty, should have full political rights. how they choose to enact these rights..is their business. anything less is Apartheid.

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 08:57 PM

They do have full political rights -- they can vote for their own Fate, within the Palestinian National Authority which organizes their Representative Parliament.

It seems strange that you want to FORCE them to do something that they themselves have no interest in.

bigjelmapro · 10th May 2010, 11:20 PM

Don't proximity talks have to take place within the same building, or at the very least, the same city? Shuttling between Ramallah and J'lem is a bit hectic....

And Web, no need to argue with Parky. He has a warped sense of reality and will continuously put you on the defensive. He's failed utterly in every thread he's posted in so here he is again in another thread spurting off the same failed arguments.

webfusion · 10th May 2010, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

Don't proximity talks have to take place within the same building, or at the very least, the same city? Shuttling between Ramallah and J'lem is a bit hectic....

I wondered about that myself.
You would think that all three negotiating teams would check into a nice resort hotel somewhere (in a neutral location, like Aqaba) and have the USA team be the go-between and mediators.

The current method is too vague and loose.
It isn't sustainable for four months, especially since it is understood in advance that there will be complaints of "new violations" by one side or the other that will invariably cause the talks to be suspended, leaving everyone back on square one.

mortimer · 11th May 2010, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

Puerto Ricans have the right to decide their fate..on a pretty regular basis.

Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not have such right.

Therefore, the analogy is bull ****.

Of course they can vote, just not in Israeli elections.

Just like Puerto Ricans can vote, just not in United States elections.

1st May 2010, 08:34 PM	#1
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	BREAKING NEWS: Tripartite 'Proximity' Talks to Resume United States' Special Envoy George Mitchell is going to be kick-starting negotiations during the coming week or so. Arab League Oversight Committee has voted to approve the process commencing. There will be four months of back-and-forth tripartite US-mediated talks. The goal is to get to Direct Dual Negotiations. Anyone here on the forum want to weigh in about what they believe is the primary issue that can most easily be resolved, and thus, be the opening element of these talks?

1st May 2010, 11:18 PM	#3
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 9,927	Israeli apartheid.
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

2nd May 2010, 12:01 AM	#4
Doctor Evil Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Back home Posts: 1,966	Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha Israeli apartheid. Huh? Care to explain?
	__________________ "ut biberent, quando esse nollent " (if they will not eat, then they will drink) -- Publius Claudius Pulcher "In this universe, effect follows cause. I've complained about it but ... " -- House

2nd May 2010, 11:01 AM	#5
Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Behind the chessboard Posts: 18,361	It should be pointed out that it's the Palestinians who are not willing to talk directly, not the Israelies. So if there is any "apartheid" here, it's on their side. Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews.
	Last edited by Skeptic; 2nd May 2010 at 11:02 AM.

2nd May 2010, 05:32 PM	#8
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Skeptic It should be pointed out that it's the Palestinians who are not willing to talk directly, not the Israelies. So if there is any "apartheid" here, it's on their side. Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews. Hi web, welcome back....you went away for quite a while, lying on a beach in the south pacific? anyway. It appears your thread has got "skeptic" horny as to the talks.....its my view that neither side is willing to negotiate in good faith so good luck to a US imposed solution. Although I expect wildcat, "skeptic" and the other lads to throw up a fair display of bluster.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

1st May 2010, 10:38 PM	#2
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,144	Originally Posted by webfusion Anyone here on the forum want to weigh in about what they believe is the primary issue that can most easily be resolved, and thus, be the opening element of these talks? That there will be punch and pie at the next meeting?

2nd May 2010, 11:24 AM	#6
Giz Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 3,442	Originally Posted by Skeptic It should be pointed out that it's the Palestinians who are not willing to talk directly, not the Israelies. So if there is any "apartheid" here, it's on their side. Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews. Look, negotiations are good. Surely all non neo-con warmongers can agree on that. If Israel will only negotiate with people who don't want to destroy it, will halt attacks on it, and don't harbor ambitions to destroy it... then there will be no negotiations. Therefore, Israel is bad, QED.

2nd May 2010, 01:36 PM	#7
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,144	Originally Posted by Giz If Israel will only negotiate with people who don't want to destroy it, will halt attacks on it, and don't harbor ambitions to destroy it... then there will be no negotiations. I though that violent extremists were just a tiny percentage of Palestinians?

8th May 2010, 08:30 PM	#9
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Skeptic Then again, a Palestinian state must be Judenrein, you know, and (as the PLO declared in Aug. 2009) merely a stage in the "staged plan" for the total eradication of Israel, so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews. The new State of Palestine should have Jews in it, and they should be treated with all the rights and privelages that Israeli-Arabs have.

10th May 2010, 05:24 AM	#10
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Updated: Palestinians threaten to walk away from talks http://beta.thehindu.com/news/intern...icle426162.ece A mere 24-hours after the talks had officially begun, the Palestinians have reportedly told the USA they will abandon the negotiations due to construction continuing on 14 privately-built homes in a neighborhood of Jerusalem (Ras el-Amud). Apparently, anyone with a hammer & nails and some two-by-fours can disrupt the National Interests of the USA, Israel and Palestinians. Every Monday and Thursday there will be new efforts by all sorts of antagonists (on both sides) to derail the talks, since it's so easy to do so. The Palestinians will be unable to get anywhere, if they don't just focus on the Big Picture and instead get bogged down in minutae.

10th May 2010, 05:49 AM	#11
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,279	Originally Posted by webfusion http://beta.thehindu.com/news/intern...icle426162.ece A mere 24-hours after the talks had officially begun, the Palestinians have reportedly told the USA they will abandon the negotiations due to construction continuing on 14 privately-built homes in a neighborhood of Jerusalem (Ras el-Amud). Apparently, anyone with a hammer & nails and some two-by-fours can disrupt the National Interests of the USA, Israel and Palestinians. Every Monday and Thursday there will be new efforts by all sorts of antagonists (on both sides) to derail the talks, since it's so easy to do so. The Palestinians will be unable to get anywhere, if they don't just focus on the Big Picture and instead get bogged down in minutae. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32982101...deastn_africa/ It looks as though the Pals and Israelis are doing something called "indirect talks" which is ... progress ... or all that can be managed at the moment. Quote: But no new Israeli housing projects in East Jerusalem have been approved since March, raising speculation Netanyahu has imposed a de facto moratorium that could keep talks ticking while avoiding a showdown with his far-right coalition partners Nothing will happen quickly, however, something may happen in time. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis Last edited by Darth Rotor; 10th May 2010 at 05:50 AM.

10th May 2010, 07:40 AM	#12
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	i expect these talks to go no where. any peace plan that involves evacuating hundreds of thousands of Israeli settlers will lead to a low-level or even full civil war in Israel.

10th May 2010, 09:54 AM	#13
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Why does there need to be any 'evacuation' at all? The stated intention is to retain the areas where the majority of Israeli citizens now live throughout these Territories, as an integral part of the State of Israel. In other words, redraw the old demarcations and eliminate those 1949 Lines. If I'm living in Alfe Menashe, I won't have to move anywhere. I'll become "gerrymandered" into Israel. Same thing with those living on French Hill, or Gilo, or even Ramat Shlomo.

10th May 2010, 10:24 AM	#14
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	I have no problem, for the most part, with Israel annexing parts of the West Bank in exchange for parts of Israel proper. And I also have no problem with the rest of the Israelis staying in their homes and becoming Palestinian citizens. But Israel needs to also compensate the Palestinians for lands they annexed in 1967 and unilaterally turned into "Jerusalem".
	Last edited by Thunder; 10th May 2010 at 10:26 AM.

10th May 2010, 11:52 AM	#15
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,144	Originally Posted by Thunder The new State of Palestine should have Jews in it, and they should be treated with all the rights and privelages that Israeli-Arabs have. So Jews in Palestine will have more rights than Arabs do?

10th May 2010, 12:12 PM	#16
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Originally Posted by Thunder I have no problem, for the most part, with Israel annexing parts of the West Bank in exchange for parts of Israel proper. That is the entire focus of these current talks. The question has been, and remains, will there be ANY give and take amongst the various Islamic Fundamentalist rejectionist factions regarding redrawing and re-demarcating those obsolete 1949 Cease-Fire Lines? Sure, you're welcome to present any evidence showing such flexibility on the part of HAMAS, et al. Quote: And I also have no problem with the rest of the Israelis staying in their homes and becoming Palestinian citizens. Good thing that YOU have no problem with it. I can pretty much bet that plenty of Palestinians would have a problem with it. Especially those Palestinians who are affiliated with HAMAS, or Jihad Islami, or any number of other powerfully-determined organizations whose aim is to reject completely any Jewish hegemony in Palestine. Whatsoever. Quote: But Israel needs to also compensate the Palestinians for lands they annexed in 1967 and unilaterally turned into "Jerusalem". What sort of 'compensation' would you suggest for the Temple Mount remaining under Jewish security & control? Who would you get to agree to that? The WAQF? HAMAS? Anyone?

10th May 2010, 12:40 PM	#17
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by webfusion What sort of 'compensation' would you suggest for the Temple Mount remaining under Jewish security & control? Who would you get to agree to that? The WAQF? HAMAS? Anyone? i dont mean the Old City. I meant all those areas east, south, and north of the city that have had NOTHING to do with Jerusalem for 3,000 years, but were suddenly annexed by Israel and re-named "Yerushalayim". any parts of these lands that Israel keeps...should be swapped with lands of equal size in Israel proper. its called justice.

10th May 2010, 12:41 PM	#18
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by WildCat So Jews in Palestine will have more rights than Arabs do? no. Jews in Palestine should be treated just as equally and farely as Arabs in Israel are treated.

10th May 2010, 12:58 PM	#19
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Originally Posted by Thunder I don't mean the Old City. Then you are being dishonest. There is NOTHING more important to the entire conflcit being resolved, than the Temple Mount. (Haram al-Sharif) Al-Aqsa is the central or crucial point of contention. You cannot dismiss it with a wave of your hand by just saying "I don't mean the Old City." Quote: I meant all those areas east, south, and north of the city that have had NOTHING to do with Jerusalem for 3,000 years, but were suddenly annexed by Israel and re-named "Yerushalayim". The Jerusalem District (sanjak) of the Ottoman Empire certainly extended into the surrounding hills. You surely must realize that? Furthermore, what about Mt. Scopus? Do you feel that there is some legitimate right for the Jews to have a presence there? It wasn't "suddenly annexed" -- there is a valid Jewish title to that specific part of Jerusalem (see: Hebrew University). Quote: Any parts of these lands that Israel keeps...should be swapped with lands of equal size in Israel proper. its called justice. OK, I'm convinced. See, that was easy. Now, can you get the HAMAS to sign on to that?

10th May 2010, 01:18 PM	#20
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by webfusion Then you are being dishonest. There is NOTHING more important to the entire conflcit being resolved, than the Temple Mount. that's very nice. but the fact remains that Israel unileraterally and illegally annexed West Bank lands that have NEVER had anything to do with the City of Jerusalem, for 3,000 years. this annexation tripled the size of the city, and now right-wing Zionists have the chutzpah to bitch about how giving back these lands is tantamount to "dividing the Jewish people's heritage". Chutzpah and lies..to the max.

10th May 2010, 01:33 PM	#21
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	The addition of Texas added to the size of the United States. So?

10th May 2010, 01:35 PM	#22
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by webfusion The addition of Texas added to the size of the United States. the people of Texas were made citizens, and given full equality. not so....for the areas of the West Bank annexed to Jerusalem.

10th May 2010, 03:23 PM	#23
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Originally Posted by Thunder the people of Texas were made citizens, and given full equality. not so....for the areas of the West Bank annexed to Jerusalem. That is simply untrue. The Arabs of Jerusalem carry Israeli ID's, and when Israel gained full control of Jerusalem in the 1967 Six-Day War, the Arabs in East Jerusalem were offered a chance to become full Israeli citizens in all legal respects. They primarily refused, although East Jerusalem Arabs receive still Israeli social security and heath benefits. They're allowed to vote in local — but not national — elections. They have the freedom to travel throughout Israel without special permits.

10th May 2010, 03:55 PM	#24
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,144	Originally Posted by webfusion They have the freedom to travel throughout Israel without special permits. Except on Jew-only roads, right?

10th May 2010, 05:49 PM	#25
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by webfusion They're allowed to vote in local — but not national — elections. They have the freedom to travel throughout Israel without special permits. they can't vote in national elections?? why the **** not??? don't they pay taxes? why do they not have the right to vote for the Knesset? do you know what they call it when you are a racial minority and do not have full political rights?

10th May 2010, 07:02 PM	#26
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,144	Originally Posted by Thunder they can't vote in national elections?? why the **** not??? don't they pay taxes? why do they not have the right to vote for the Knesset? do you know what they call it when you are a racial minority and do not have full political rights? Puerto Rico?

10th May 2010, 07:04 PM	#27
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by WildCat Puerto Rico? let me know when Israel gives the Palestinians of East Jerusalem a referendum on whether they should become full citizens of Israel, stay with the status-quo, or become part of the West Bank again. yeah...you just let me know.

10th May 2010, 07:17 PM	#28
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,144	Originally Posted by Thunder let me know when Israel gives the Palestinians of East Jerusalem a referendum on whether they should become full citizens of Israel, stay with the status-quo, or become part of the West Bank again. yeah...you just let me know. I love the sound of goalposts moving! Sounds like... victory!

10th May 2010, 07:19 PM	#29
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by WildCat I love the sound of goalposts moving! Sounds like... victory! every several years, Puerto Rico votes to keep Commonwealth status, become the 51st State, or become an independent country. let me know when the Palestinians of East Jerusalem are given such an opportunity. until then, your BS analogy is just that....... bull ****.

10th May 2010, 07:22 PM	#30
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Skeptic so it's not surprising they're not willing to speak directly to the dirty Jews. another amazing strawman...from der Strawman Koenige. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...350467,00.html A Haifa University survey investigating Arabs and Jews' views on one another reveals disturbing results. The poll showed that 75 percent of Jewish students believe that Arabs are uneducated people, are uncivilized and are unclean.
	Last edited by Thunder; 10th May 2010 at 07:25 PM.

10th May 2010, 07:31 PM	#31
mortimer NWO Janitor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 3,479	Originally Posted by Thunder every several years, Puerto Rico votes to keep Commonwealth status, become the 51st State, or become an independent country. let me know when the Palestinians of East Jerusalem are given such an opportunity. until then, your BS analogy is just that....... bull ****. The analogy is directly related to the post you made. Every single factor you singled out is directly analogous to Puerto Rico. Your inclusion of voting for various political status options in this post is yet another move of the goal posts.
	__________________ "why would i bother?" - Bikerdruid, on providing evidence for his claims "I view hamas as an organization fighting for the freedom of its people." - Bikerdruid

10th May 2010, 07:34 PM	#32
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by mortimer The analogy is directly related to the post you made. Every single factor you singled out is directly analogous to Puerto Rico. Your inclusion of voting for various political status options in this post is yet another move of the goal posts. Puerto Ricans have the right to decide their fate..on a pretty regular basis. Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not have such right. Therefore, the analogy is bull ****.

10th May 2010, 08:03 PM	#33
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	Palestinians of Jerusalem Originally Posted by Thunder Palestinians in East Jerusalem do not have such right ((to decide their fate..on a pretty regular basis.)) Therefore, the analogy is bull **. Incredibly enough, the facts of the situation do not really support your claim. Only a miniscule percentage vote in the municipal elections. Most refuse to, on the grounds that it would be tantamount to recognizing** Israeli sovereignity. .... The PLO/PA Boycott of the Democratic Process in Jerusalem is an ongoing tactic to de-legitimize the de-jure control Israel has there. Going back to the last time elections were held in the Palestinian National Authority --- 2006 --- Associated Press: RAMALLAH, West Bank — The Israeli Cabinet on Sunday (January 15, 2006) unanimously approved voting by those living in east Jerusalem for Palestinian parliamentary elections.

10th May 2010, 08:15 PM	#34
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by webfusion Incredibly enough, the facts of the situation do not really support your claim. Israel controls and rules East Jerusalem. The Knesset rules this city. Not giving the Palestinians the right to vote in Knesset elections is nothing less than Apartheid.

10th May 2010, 08:34 PM	#35
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Near I-95 Posts: 6,216	The Palestinians of Jerusalem want to disassociate from Israel, and prefer to boycott elections held by Israel, and not declare themselves "Israelis" ---- so, your suggestion that they would WANT to vote for Knesset (thereby providing legitimacy for that body) is not supported by the facts.