Are children's tastes and preferences early indicators of adult sexuality?

[Puppycow]

If a boy likes (for want of better words) "girly" things and fashions and dislikes "boyish" things or a girl likes "boyish" things and fashions and dislikes "girly" things, is that an early indicator of what their sexuality will be as an adult?

[The Fallen Serpent]

From personal anecdotal experience, no. I am unaware of any reliable studies that would suggest this.

My assumption is that sexual orientation is too difficult by our current understanding of factors to reliably predict during the pre-pubescent years. If there is evidence to the contrary or an actual attempt to study such ideas I would be interested in reading about it.

[Giraffe107]

I am a heterosexual woman. As a little girl, I loved playing with cars and helping my dad building things, by passing him tools and the like. I loved to build things with lego, and I had a batman costume that was my favourite thing in the whole world. I didn't get into dolls until I was 7 or 8.

So for me, liking 'boys' toys did not result in me being a lesbian.

ETA: but I did become an engineer!

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by Giraffe107

I am a heterosexual woman. As a little girl, I loved playing with cars and helping my dad building things, by passing him tools and the like. I loved to build things with lego, and I had a batman costume that was my favourite thing in the whole world. I didn't get into dolls until I was 7 or 8.

So for me, liking 'boys' toys did not result in me being a lesbian.

ETA: but I did become an engineer!

OK, until 7 or 8 is one thing. But what if a girl is 13 and still only likes boyish fashions?
Hates dresses, skirts and girly shoes?

[stup_id]

Originally Posted by Giraffe107

ETA: but I did become an engineer!

OMG!.. did your father ever forgave himself? :P

[jiggeryqua]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

OK, until 7 or 8 is one thing. But what if a girl is 13 and still only likes boyish fashions?
Hates dresses, skirts and girly shoes?

Perhaps she's just a rational thinker....'why should I have to wear generally impractical clothing just on account of my genitalia?' Trust me, the world won't fall apart if women aren't obliged to wear dresses (though it has a tendency to blow up around me any time I wear a dress), nor will it necessarily be the end of your world if your daughter does grow up a lesbian. My advice would be 'wait and see' - and to note that even if she is a lesbian, her preference for trousers isn't an indicator or a cause.

[Soapy Sam]

She's a tomboy.
How dreadful.

[joe911]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

OK, until 7 or 8 is one thing. But what if a girl is 13 and still only likes boyish fashions?
Hates dresses, skirts and girly shoes?

The problem here isn't the kids choice of clothing, toys or hobbies, but peoples' heteronormative views, that there are set norms of how boys and girls should act.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

Perhaps she's just a rational thinker....

Seems to be more of a visceral loathing than a simple concern for practicality.

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

She's a tomboy.
How dreadful.

Who suggested it was dreadful?

Originally Posted by joe911

The problem here isn't the kids choice of clothing, toys or hobbies, but peoples' heteronormative views, that there are set norms of how boys and girls should act.

Who said it was a problem? I'm just wondering if it's a predictive indicator, not passing judgment on what sexuality is preferable.

[Alan]

J. Michael Bailey has done research on this matter and says yes.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/m2l68583l6514u31/
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3412136
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...in;contentBody (second half concerns children)

I haven't been able to look into his research on that matter in detail but I'm not a big fan of his work. He seems to be a bit of a quack on a couple of topics related to this like gender (specifically transwomen) and sexuality (specifically male bisexuality). Some of his work in those fields has been called pseudoscientific. For what it's worth.
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conw...-05.html#Intro

[joe911]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Who said it was a problem? I'm just wondering if it's a predictive indicator, not passing judgment on what sexuality is preferable.

You missed my point. My point was that its hereronormativity that causes people to beleive there are set gender roles,so its very unreliable to use 'boys who like girls stuff/vice versa' as an indicator for sexual orientation as gender identity and orientation are completley different things.

[The Fallen Serpent]

Most women I know regularly wear jeans. I have only had one girlfriend who knew less about cars, guns or sports than I did, and she was a chinese immigrant without a license when I first met her. Maybe that is evidence that I usually date lesbians? I would think the beard and chest hair would discourage that. Or maybe its implying I am gay, but the fascinated lusting over lady bits and lack of doing so for gentlemanly bits would disagree.

I think what happens is that people conflate societal and cultural definitions of gender roles with sexual appetites. Simplistically, a person has three "genders." The physical gender, the sexual orientation, the personality gender. People come in all variations possible but there are a few weak or possibly moderate tendencies. Which are socially imposed and which are inherent?

A friend of mine in elementary/middle/high school was an early adopter of the metrosexual craze. A pioneer in the fad as in he adopted what we associate with it during the 80's in elementary school no matter how much his parents attempted to discourage his behaviour. He wore makeup (less than most girls of the same age, but if you were friends with him you could tell), enjoyed "girly" activities like dancing and clothes shopping, was just generally effeminate in most of what he did. Video games and tabletop roleplaying games were more of a secret pleasure of his, and why we were friends. He also was skirt chaser through and through. Eventually he settled on a type of woman he liked, tom-boy aggressive personality women with ample breasts. So that makes him a male heterosexual with an effeminate personality. If he were gay I doubt he would fail to admit it, he got a lot of flack at 13 for wearing eyeliner and blush, usually defending his choice with "At least I am not making myself look ugly with make up like the goths." Obviously this was pre-emo, we still had goths.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by joe911

You missed my point. My point was that its hereronormativity that causes people to beleive there are set gender roles,so its very unreliable to use 'boys who like girls stuff/vice versa' as an indicator for sexual orientation as gender identity and orientation are completley different things.

OK, so if it's not predictive of sexual orientation, is it predictive of gender identity?

[The Fallen Serpent]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

OK, so if it's not predictive of sexual orientation, is it predictive of gender identity?

I think there could be merit to this. However I still think it is conflating different principles. Despite the origins and evolution of the words, I think there is a massive difference between being effeminate and being female. Between masculine and being male. If we look at gender identity in a binary mode I would say no. If we were to instead take up a more nuanced approach to gender identification then I would say yes. In other words the entire issue is too complex for any simplification to be useful in most contexts.

[TragicMonkey]

The PC, thoughtful, skeptic, consider-everything-very-carefully-and-allow-for-outlying-possiblities answer? No. Too many variables involved: upbringing, experience, cultural pressure, genetics, sexuality..all complicated stuff. You could raise two kids exactly the same way and get totally different results.

But really, yeah. Probably. But I'd say it only goes one way--a boy who likes girly things may be more likely to be gay than straight when he grows up, but a boy who likes boyish things may equally likely go either way. I'd say that it'd be harder to draw the same conclusions with girls, because a) boy's toys and games are generally much more awesome so little girls with good taste will pick up the dinosaurs and leave Barbie to her own devices and b) girls might be tomboyish because they're close to their dad.

And of course we have no way of knowing whether a particular child is simply conforming to traditional gender roles because he feels pressured to. Kids aren't stupid, they can tell when their parents or peers disapprove of something about them.

And to preempt the inevitable, yeah, that's all my sheer opinion with zero cited facts and studies. If you insist that we all be lawyers and scientists and post as if we're going to have defend our positions in court, just read the first paragraph.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Yes, I've seen various studies on the topic.

Linky.

Linky.

And considering a popular theory on homosexuality revolves around pre-natal hormones and other-gendered brain structure, it isn't that surprising.

[sgtbaker]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

OK, until 7 or 8 is one thing. But what if a girl is 13 and still only likes boyish fashions?
Hates dresses, skirts and girly shoes?

Taste in clothing has little to do with sexuality. I've actually wondered the same thing about my 13yr old. She thinks a perfect date would be tromping through a swamp and catching lizards. She, only recently started talking about boys, but up until then I wondered which gender she would prefer. Who knows, though? She could just be trying to fit in with the other girls. Heck, if she does come out of the closet some day, at least she picked a much more accepting time to do it. In my day, in school, being called a lesbian was an insult that you vehemantly denied...now it's considered hawt

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I think it really depends. I, and especially my sister, were tomboyish right up through high school but became much more feminine as adult women. My godson spent two years often dressing up in his sister's clothes and making everyone in the family call him "Mrs Nesbitt," but now when he plays dress up it's in more masculine fireman/cowboy type scenarios.

But then I have a couple guy friends who acted quite effeminate when we were kids, and then ended up coming out as gay as adults. Also, when I recently had my ten year high school reunion, the three girls who had been the biggest tomboys, the most masculine and sports oriented, in my class all have since come out as gay. But, my sister was arguably the biggest tomboy and sports oriented girl in HER class, is straight and very feminine now. So, you never really know.

Sgt baker: yes, it's true, in many areas it is trendy to be a lesbian. It was at both my high school in college. There's even a term for girls who acted like lesbians/bisexuals to be "cool" but then suddenly "become straight" as adults: BUG (bisexual until graduation)

"Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading"

-"What it feels like for a girl" by Madonna.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

-"What it feels like for a girl" by Madonna.

She hasn't been a girl in quite a while ...

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

She hasn't been a girl in quite a while ...

[tyr_13]

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

Perhaps she's just a rational thinker....'why should I have to wear generally impractical clothing just on account of my genitalia?' Trust me, the world won't fall apart if women aren't obliged to wear dresses (though it has a tendency to blow up around me any time I wear a dress), nor will it necessarily be the end of your world if your daughter does grow up a lesbian. My advice would be 'wait and see' - and to note that even if she is a lesbian, her preference for trousers isn't an indicator or a cause.

I've never understood some of the arguments against dresses. Sure, if you don't like them, that's fine. However, why do women who don't like them insist that they are impractical and uncomfortable? Every time I've had anything dress like on (kimono) I've found it comfortable, easy to move it, and even practical except for running up stairs.

On a side note, if I ever have a daughter, I hope she is a lesbian. That way she'll understand when I complain about what a pain in the ass it is to date women.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Originally Posted by joe911

The problem here isn't the kids choice of clothing, toys or hobbies, but peoples' heteronormative views, that there are set norms of how boys and girls should act.

Agreed in part. Sure, not every tomboy who hates dresses and skirts, doesn't care about getting herself dirty, likes tools and wants to play soccer is a lesbian. Most- even the vast majority- actually probably aren't. People shouldn't jump to conclusions just because a little boy, say, likes pretty flowers and dances well.

However, sometimes, well, it really is that obvious. It's not "a stereotype" coming out of a strict dichotomy of the sexes found in Western culture; it's a true stereotype.

I know a gay guy and he says that he dressed in his mother's shoes and dresses and wanted to put on her makeup when he was 2 or 3 years old. I know another gay guy who says he did the exact same thing. They both say that this was the moment their parents first thought that they were gay (correctly, I might add). You can't tell me that's our rigid gender standards stereotyping them.

At the risk of sounding a bit unPC and sexist here, if your little son likes Broadway musicals...eh, well, he could be gay or he could not be. That could go both ways. However, if he wants to put on lip gloss or loves shoes or wants boas, he isn't just "a little feminine" or "getting in touch with his more feminine side". He isn't "just being a creative spirit". He isn't "exploring other interests". And anyone who thinks he is gay isn't jumping to crazy conclusions or a sexist/homophobe. They, well, have eyes and can see.

My two gay acquaintances, who are obviously not homophobes, would actually be the first people to instantly label any boy who did that as obviously gay. They'd laugh at any suggestion to the contrary. And consider it hopelessly and laughably naive.

[Piggy]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

OK, until 7 or 8 is one thing. But what if a girl is 13 and still only likes boyish fashions?
Hates dresses, skirts and girly shoes?

Let us not confuse sex with clothes.

That sounds flip, but I'm entirely serious.

If a girl is 13 and still wants to play doctor with other girls, well, then she's likely to be attracted to girls. Which is good to know, as a parent, but of course entirely fine.

But if she's into boyish shirts, hats, and pants... I wouldn't give it a second thought as far as sexuality. Really.

Imo, regardless of whether a child is attracted to partners of the same or opposite sex, the best thing that can happen as far as their future mental health is concerned, is that they know their parents accept them and are there to provide love and guidance and understanding regardless.

The worst thing that can happen is if they feel that who they are is some kind of problem for their folks.

[Piggy]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

OK, so if it's not predictive of sexual orientation, is it predictive of gender identity?

Not from what I've seen, but I haven't had reason to look at studies on that for some years.

If you want to know whether there's some problem with gender identity, then preference for boys' clothes isn't where you need to be looking.

I say "problem" because a disconnect between what one feels one's gender to be, and the gender of one's body, is a difficult situation. No one in that position has it easy.

If you're concerned about this, then it's up to you to start widening your horizons, and understanding that the human experience is not just what is normative. It's much broader than that.

That might put you outside your comfort zone. But your child can actually help you broaden that.

Be willing to talk.

And remember when your kid was a toddler. When she fell down, how she would look up and see how the grown-ups reacted. If they were startled, she would start crying. If they just said "Uh-oh!" and smiled, she would pick herself up and keep going.

You want your girl to always pick herself up and keep going.

Don't be afraid of any outcome, whatever it may be. After all, your girl is who she is. And whoever that is, she'll have one helluva better life if you're along for the ride as her eternal friends, exploring it all with her, seeing it through her eyes.

Don't worry. Enjoy.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

Agreed in part. Sure, not every tomboy who hates dresses and skirts, doesn't care about getting herself dirty, likes tools and wants to play soccer is a lesbian. Most- even the vast majority- actually probably aren't. People shouldn't jump to conclusions just because a little boy, say, likes pretty flowers and dances well.

However, sometimes, well, it really is that obvious. It's not "a stereotype" coming out of a strict dichotomy of the sexes found in Western culture; it's a true stereotype.

I know a gay guy and he says that he dressed in his mother's shoes and dresses and wanted to put on her makeup when he was 2 or 3 years old. I know another gay guy who says he did the exact same thing. They both say that this was the moment their parents first thought that they were gay (correctly, I might add). You can't tell me that's our rigid gender standards stereotyping them.

At the risk of sounding a bit unPC and sexist here, if your little son likes Broadway musicals...eh, well, he could be gay or he could not be. That could go both ways. However, if he wants to put on lip gloss or loves shoes or wants boas, he isn't just "a little feminine" or "getting in touch with his more feminine side". He isn't "just being a creative spirit". He isn't "exploring other interests". And anyone who thinks he is gay isn't jumping to crazy conclusions or a sexist/homophobe. They, well, have eyes and can see.

My two gay acquaintances, who are obviously not homophobes, would actually be the first people to instantly label any boy who did that as obviously gay. They'd laugh at any suggestion to the contrary. And consider it hopelessly and laughably naive.

Argumentum ad gay friend. <3

How common is gender atypical behaviour for young children, though? I had heard it was fairly common when I studied psychology and gender, so I thought there might be a lot of false positives.

I found this but I don't know if it's any good.

Quote:

But in 1987, psychiatrist Richard Green, MD, published a seminal study later corroborated by other researchers that found that extreme boyhood gender nonconformity was associated with a homosexual or bisexual identity in adulthood--neither of which are disorders.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/sep03/children.aspx

Because anecdotes are great and worth a lot, I'll share that I did wear high heels (red because it was like from the Wizard of Oz film...oh dear) and things when I was younger to dress up, and I'm now one of those newfangled fence-hitting switch-sitters.

[r0ast_p0tat0es]

I guess I must be one of those weird gay guys who grew up playing rugy, paintball and Quake.

[sgtbaker]

Lol ROast, it didn't even dawn on me how blanketing that question was. It's assuming that all lesbians are man-ish and all gay men are effeminate.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by Piggy

<snip>

And remember when your kid was a toddler. When she fell down, how she would look up and see how the grown-ups reacted. If they were startled, she would start crying. If they just said "Uh-oh!" and smiled, she would pick herself up and keep going.

You want your girl to always pick herself up and keep going.

Don't be afraid of any outcome, whatever it may be. After all, your girl is who she is. And whoever that is, she'll have one helluva better life if you're along for the ride as her eternal friends, exploring it all with her, seeing it through her eyes.

Don't worry. Enjoy.

This is stellar parenting advice just in general.

Good work, Piggy.

[Walter Ego]

I'm a gay male and I didn't like "girly" stuff as a child. (On the other hand, I was not interested in sports, either.)

I was interested in books and reading... which is kinda gay in the USA.

There was an odd and probably completely dead tradition among some families (this may have been mainly in the South where I grew up) of dressing little boys in girl's clothes and not getting their hair cut until they were four or five years old (before they entered school) and giving them dolls and children's tea sets to play with.

When I was a child, a male friend's mother proudly showed me a baby picture of my friend with long hair wearing a dress and playing with a plastic tea set. I thought that was very weird at the time. My friend grew up to be completely heterosexual.

[Bikewer]

According to the reading I've done in the field, our "sexuality" regarding preferences, fetishes (if any), and an idealized psychological construct of a mating partner are all in place by age three.
Of course, nothing manifests at that early age.
Many homosexuals report "knowing they were different" at ages as early as 6-7.

Various paraphilias (fetishes) manifest that early as well, though it may merely be an "interest" as it's not yet associated with sex...
At least one book has been written on effeminate behavior as a predictor of homosexuality, but of course homosexuality and effeminate behavior are not necessarily related....Many male homosexuals are quite "butch".

[Morrigan]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

OK, until 7 or 8 is one thing. But what if a girl is 13 and still only likes boyish fashions?
Hates dresses, skirts and girly shoes?

That would be me. I'm 27, haven't worn a dress since I was 10, have never ever worn any make-up, and wear jeans and heavy metal shirts and running shoes every day. 100% straight, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by tyr_13

I've never understood some of the arguments against dresses. Sure, if you don't like them, that's fine. However, why do women who don't like them insist that they are impractical and uncomfortable? Every time I've had anything dress like on (kimono) I've found it comfortable, easy to move it, and even practical except for running up stairs.

...And riding bikes. :P I don't wear skirts or dresses, but I do wear a hakama for kendo, and it works fine for this activity... but not for anything else really.

[Walter Ego]

Originally Posted by Bikewer

At least one book has been written on effeminate behavior as a predictor of homosexuality, but of course homosexuality and effeminate behavior are not necessarily related....Many male homosexuals are quite "butch".

My completely non-scientific observations of gay American men (and I have been at public events with hundreds of gay men in attendance) have lead me to conclude that a small minority (maybe ten percent) are overtly effeminate.

The striking thing is how ordinary gay men are. In terms of "masculine" behavior gay men are pretty much like straight men, i.e., neither excessively "butch" or femme.

And then there's the rare but not unknown phenomena of the effeminate heterosexual.

[Beth]

Originally Posted by Puppycow

If a boy likes (for want of better words) "girly" things and fashions and dislikes "boyish" things or a girl likes "boyish" things and fashions and dislikes "girly" things, is that an early indicator of what their sexuality will be as an adult?

It's an interesting question. Based on my experiences with children who exhibited such behaviors, I think it can be used as an indicator - i.e. a child exhibiting such preferences is more likely to be gay/lesbian when grown than a child who does not. But it's still only a probability not a definitive predictor of sexuality as an adult.

[Shrike]

From my limited experience.
Brother in law is gay. When young he loved to play with my wife's dolls. my wife played with his cars.
BIL now works in a shoe store and is fashion conscious. Wife now works in a car dealership and dresses like Morrigan above. And is 100% straight (so no chance of a threesome ).
Does that answer your question?

[Ethan Thane Athen]

As a kid, I wasn't into sport and I used to read my (older) sisters 'girl' books (Mallory Towers, Twins at St Clares, Nancy Drew etc). I even occasionally played with her dolls.

Why? Well they were there, she played with them / read them and it looked like fun. Then again, I only read those books when I'd finished mine and the dolls used to get up to way more exciting stuff when I played with them (climbing, parachuting, fighting!) so I guess they weren't really 'tell tale' signs. The doll thing may also have been 'cos my dad wouldn't let me have an action man - 'cos it was a doll and only girls have dolls. He was fine with soldiers but once the arms and legs moved and you could change the clothes apparently it becomes a doll!

Oh and I was regarded as quite a sissy at school (top of the class, didn't like sports, must be gay was the way things worked in my school).

Grew up completely hetero - absolutely love / lust women and am completely bemused by blokes fancying blokes...just doesn't compute.

My second daughter, climbs trees, hates wearing dresses, likes boy type things (dinosaurs, astronomy, action films etc) but had 3 boyfriends before my eldest had one.

My son has 3 older sisters and will happily play with their dolls, put on their shoes etc*. Too early to tell anything for certain but again he's very 'boyish' in the way he plays with the dolls and extremely physical and competitive compared to the girls (much more so than I was as a boy) so I'd be surprised if he wasn't straight.

Upshot of all this rambling? In my experience, choice of clothes, games etc is no indication of sexual preference.

*I did draw the line at him wearing one of their bras - call me a reactionary fuddy duddy!

[RockNroll]

I have anecdotal evidence of knowing 3 different gay guys since they were children. Two of them, a cousin of mine and my mother's boyfriend's son, had always been interested in girly things (I mostly remember barbie dolls) and somewhat effeminate. The other one, a childhood buddy of mine, was a super-butch hockey player who came out when he was in college, to the surprise of pretty much everyone.

About 1/3 of my current male friends are gay. Of those, most are either totally average or manlier-than-average (including one who consistently kicks my ass in Muay Thai class), with only two being slightly effiminate.

So in my experience, childhood behaviour and preferences are only an indicator when the person is part of the minority of gays who act girly.

[HansMustermann]

TBH, I wouldn't take even 13 year old as much of an indication. While girls do get their menstruation before that, the boys in their age still haven't switched on testosterone production, and it'll take years before it fully produces a male body anyway. Basically my take is that someone that age is pretty much still surrounded by other kids who all look like girls. And a bunch of them still act and think like children, as opposed to someone whose eye you'd want to catch.

I also fail to see anything biological about the choice of clothing. Exactly what is considered proper man-wear and women-wear has varied entirely too much across time and space. From model (the Romans males wore basically a glorified dress and despised the barbarians who wore pants like a bunch of girls, or renaissance rich thought basically a pantyhose is male wear) to colours (some of the greatest samurai wore big stonking pink flowers and butterflies on their kimono) to showing off the body (the Romans are credited with inventing the bra, but it actually was a strip of cloth tied tightly over the breasts to hide them, as they liked their women flat) to whatever else, there have been entirely too many conflicting tastes to believe that there is anything biologically hard-wired in the choice of clothing.

If anything, recent research suggests that women actually find a slightly higher temperature comfortable, so I'd think the choice of jeans instead of freezing one's calves off may be entirely comfort related after all. But I'm probably biased up north here.

The choice of toys, again, I'm hard pressed to see why would things like cars or guns be hard-wired biologically to be boy stuff. The species evolved long before such things existed at all. Boys play with cars just because they've been taught to play with cars, and girls play with dolls because they've been taught to play with dolls, basically.

[ThatSoundAgain]

Originally Posted by Walter Ego

There was an odd and probably completely dead tradition among some families (this may have been mainly in the South where I grew up) of dressing little boys in girl's clothes and not getting their hair cut until they were four or five years old (before they entered school) and giving them dolls and children's tea sets to play with.

When I was a child, a male friend's mother proudly showed me a baby picture of my friend with long hair wearing a dress and playing with a plastic tea set. I thought that was very weird at the time. My friend grew up to be completely heterosexual.

Not so odd - treating very young children differently based on gender is a relatively new phenomenon in Western culture. See for example this WP article, and note the regal portraits.