[Merged] Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero - Page 10

GreNME · 15th August 2010, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

I would classify as sect any religious belief that does not allow for long-term, peaceful coexistence with non-believers, and does not allow its members to freely and without reprisal abandon the faith unconditionally. While a healthy democracy requires us to be open-minded and accepting of major differences, I see no contradiction in being intolerant of an aggressive sect, such as Islam, that openly preaches the antithesis of the cherished ideals that underlie democracy.

Thunder · 15th August 2010, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

http://image.grenme.com/thread/islam5.jpg

this is disgusting.

bikerdruid · 15th August 2010, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

this is disgusting.

agreed.
maybe we can come up with some pics of a bloody corpse of an abortion clinic worker blown up by christians....

Myshkin · 15th August 2010, 03:05 PM

Seems to me we have a choice between 1) leading by example, and 2) debasing ourselves by adopting the tactics and rhetoric of the vile pieces of excrement that perpetrated the 9-11 attacks. I do have a problem Islam. Among the current major religions, it appears to be disproportionately violent, but this is a topic for another discussion, and more importantly, is irrelevant to the question at hand.

In an ideal America, we would practice what we preach and all faiths (as idiotic as they might be) would be treated equally. The decision to allow a mosque in a given location should be subject to the exact same rules as the decision to allow any other religious facility.

Everyone deserves justice. In the case of the 9/11 attacks, the guilty deserve to rot forever in prison and the innocent - even those that were jumping around being *******s celebrating the attacks, or are planning to open their facility on 9/11 - justly deserve equal rights until they forfeit them by the rule of law.

Call me naive, but this is why I love this country, and this is what I want my country to be. We should do what is right, not what makes us comfortable or allows us to gratify our vengeance.

DC · 15th August 2010, 03:23 PM

Jesus would allow it

I Am The Scum · 15th August 2010, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

Not only would I say "no mosque at ground zero," but also no protection under the law as religion of any teaching that does not allow, indeed forbids, peaceful coexistence with nonbelievers. The right to freedom of religion (conscience) must be understood as equally guaranteeing freedom *from* religious coercion.

Do you deny that there are millions of Muslims in America that peacefully coexist with their non-Muslim neighbors? If not, how do you reconcile this fact with the rest of your post?

Thunder · 15th August 2010, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

agreed.
maybe we can come up with some pics of a bloody corpse of an abortion clinic worker blown up by christians....

yes. lets all post some pics of the children murdered at OKC, by a right-wing, gun loving Conservative Christian.

ANTPogo · 15th August 2010, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Myshkin

Seems to me we have a choice between 1) leading by example, and 2) debasing ourselves by adopting the tactics and rhetoric of the vile pieces of excrement that perpetrated the 9-11 attacks. I do have a problem Islam. Among the current major religions, it appears to be disproportionately violent, but this is a topic for another discussion, and more importantly, is irrelevant to the question at hand.

In an ideal America, we would practice what we preach and all faiths (as idiotic as they might be) would be treated equally. The decision to allow a mosque in a given location should be subject to the exact same rules as the decision to allow any other religious facility.

Everyone deserves justice. In the case of the 9/11 attacks, the guilty deserve to rot forever in prison and the innocent - even those that were jumping around being *******s celebrating the attacks, or are planning to open their facility on 9/11 - justly deserve equal rights until they forfeit them by the rule of law.

Call me naive, but this is why I love this country, and this is what I want my country to be. We should do what is right, not what makes us comfortable or allows us to gratify our vengeance.

Damn straight. As Jon Stewart said, “If you don't stick to your principles when the chips are down, they're not principles… they're hobbies.”

Telltale Tom · 15th August 2010, 04:49 PM

There is a strip club one and half blocks from the hallowed ground at zero. I wonder why none of the christian or jewish groups complain about that.

I assume that their view is that in christian terms a house of degradation is better than a house of worship of a competing religion.

RedRatSnake · 15th August 2010, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

http://image.grenme.com/thread/islam5.jpg

I really don't see why this picture got the replies it did by a few folks, come on guys really how can you possibly compare it too pics of a bloody corpse of an abortion clinic worker ?

Thunder · 15th August 2010, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by TheDevilCried

I really don't see why this picture got the replies it did by a few folks, come on guys really how can you possibly compare it too pics of a bloody corpse of an abortion clinic worker ?

easily. both pics would be meant to shock and appeal to the emotions of the onlooker.

one would seek to associate all Christians with abortion-clinic bombers, the other to associate all Muslims with the terrorists of 9-11.

bikerdruid · 15th August 2010, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Telltale Tom

There is a strip club one and half blocks from the hallowed ground at zero. I wonder why none of the christian or jewish groups complain about that.

simple...more 'christians ' will frequent the strip club than will go to the mosque.
we don't wanna interfere with free enterprise, after all, we are talking america here...

bikerdruid · 15th August 2010, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by thunder

easily. Both pics would be meant to shock and appeal to the emotions of the onlooker.

One would seek to associate all christians with abortion-clinic bombers, the other to associate all muslims with the terrorists of 9-11.

bingo!

Thunder · 15th August 2010, 06:07 PM

I'll be honest, listening to some of the rhetoric against the Mosque is a bit frightening.

I hear echos of 1936. I really do. It truly shocks me that soo many Americans could have such a poor commitment to freedom, equality, and tolerance.

If anything, you would think that out of ALL Americans, New Yorkers would be the most extreme on this issue. And yet we are not.

We aren't talking about face covering burqas or Sharia law or allowing Muslim cabdrivers refuse folks carrying alchohol. We are simply talking about the building of a Muslim house of worship, by moderate Muslims.

Nazi Germany guys, read about it. Read about how it started and where it ended up.

RedRatSnake · 15th August 2010, 06:34 PM

I don't know why you are so shocked or taking it too hard cause in time it will all fade away, hey ! look at how much folks get riled up with sports right, it's just currant news right now and needs to be addressed so we all know we ain't alone and others feel as we do no matter what there stand on the subject, it's just human nature, in the end no one of us has a say all we can do is shout out what we feel hopefully in a civil manner.

Thunder · 15th August 2010, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by TheDevilCried

I don't know why you are so shocked or taking it too hard cause in time it will all fade away, .

this is what they said about the Nazis, in 1933.

Originally Posted by TheDevilCried

hey ! look at how much folks get riled up with sports right, it's just currant news right now and needs to be addressed so we all know we ain't alone and others feel as we do no matter what there stand on the subject, it's just human nature, in the end no one of us has a say all we can do is shout out what we feel hopefully in a civil manner.

that's until the harrassing phone calls to the homes of construction workers start.

that's until the eggs start getting thrown.

that's until the midnight firebombs are tossed.

this is our 1933 moment, and I pray we do what is right.

RedRatSnake · 15th August 2010, 07:00 PM

There you go with the Nazis again, that was another country and another time . . . . . as for the rest of the post thats a prediction and total speculation on your part and something i see as really looking down on the American people as a whole.

Thunder · 15th August 2010, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by TheDevilCried

There you go with the Nazis again, that was another country and another time . . . . . as for the rest of the post thats a prediction and total speculation on your part and something i see as really looking down on the American people as a whole.

Germany between 1919 and 1933 was a functioning democracy, with many liberal-progressives leading the charge.

They had a working constitution which guarunteed freedom and civil rights for all citizens.

Not too unlike, the USA.

Double-dip recession, unemployment hitting 12%, Muslims building a big Mosque near GZ, could be a recipe for a catastrophe.

RedRatSnake · 15th August 2010, 07:19 PM

I got more faith in my fellow Americans than you do i guess, i don't think the building will cause any panic or bring every day things to a screaming halt, we will forge on and deal with it as needed, it won't effect my way of life at all, it will just make me a little bit sad that some will give into yet another screaming religion that crys foul

Thunder · 15th August 2010, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by TheDevilCried

I got more faith in my fellow Americans than you do i guess,

in 1863, the Irish decided that it was not fare that there was a draft and rich folks could buy out of it.

so they rioted throughout NYC for days, murdering THOUSANDS of blacks.

in 1941, the USA put hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese Americans into interment camps, and took away their property.

up until the 1970s, it was pretty much legal to lynch a black man who dared to look at a white woman.

yes, perhaps you do have more faith in the American people than I.

RedRatSnake · 15th August 2010, 07:35 PM

I ain't even going to comment on what happened in 1863

1941 there was a war going on and the government did what they thought was right to protect the county, we treated our prisoners better than what the other country did to there prisoners of war.

In 1970 i went threw the forced busing and i'll tell you right now the racial tensions were brought on by the government and not the folks that were involved in it, over time we all healed and today i see everyone getting along just fine.

Thunder · 15th August 2010, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by TheDevilCried

I 1941 there was a war going on and the government did what they thought was right to protect the county, we treated our prisoners better than what the other country did to there prisoners of war.

err...um...we are talking AMERICAN CITIZENS....NOT POWS!!!

and btw, the SCOTUS found the internment to be a violation of the law.

RedRatSnake · 15th August 2010, 07:50 PM

were way off topic here but all i can say is we / Americans didn't be head folks or freeze body parts as our counter parts did and i don't think we will be starting to do that here just cause there is going to be an Islam Mosque built, we have the right to protest here in this country with out worrying about being shot and i think that a pretty cool deal.

Juniversal · 15th August 2010, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

Ground zero for democracy is the shared covenant of agreeing to disagree nonviolently, without which freedom in diversity is impossible.

The polar opposite of democratic tolerance is the proposition that a particular belief is beyond question to the point of ascribing to itself the right to impose, by violence or subterfuge, its "truths." Islam does both, including support for ambushing and slaying non-believers (terrorism).

A totalitarian view is most definitely enshrined in the basic tenets and teachings of Islam, at its core and not just at the extreme fringes. While potent anti-violent themes ("love thy enemy") can be found at the core of Christianity to offset the arguments of its more extreme adherents, and Judaism, while intolerant, is by nature tribal and so lacks a global expansionist view, Islam preaches a view of all non-believers as lacking in rights and so any real protection from unbounded persecution, barring forced conversion. IOW, I may not subscribe to Christian nor Jewish beliefs, but feel there is a way to peacefully coexist with them in a 21st century democracy.

I would classify as sect any religious belief that does not allow for long-term, peaceful coexistence with non-believers, and does not allow its members to freely and without reprisal abandon the faith unconditionally. While a healthy democracy requires us to be open-minded and accepting of major differences, I see no contradiction in being intolerant of an aggressive sect, such as Islam, that openly preaches the antithesis of the cherished ideals that underlie democracy.

Not only would I say "no mosque at ground zero," but also no protection under the law as religion of any teaching that does not allow, indeed forbids, peaceful coexistence with nonbelievers. The right to freedom of religion (conscience) must be understood as equally guaranteeing freedom *from* religious coercion.

Believe you me, the Christian bible is just as inolerant and barbaric as the Quaran. Fundamentalist pracitioners of Islam are not paticularly leniate when it comes to practicing the Religion like Christian Fundamentalist are. Generally speaking Christianity might be more "kind hearted" relative to Islam but if Christians were to stricly practice as directed by the bible then Christians would seem just as violent as Muslims. The Christian bible isn't very tolerant of non-Christians (See: Kill followers of other Religions).

Thankfully Christians are lazy enough to selectively read the bible or ignore the verses in the old testement that rub them the wrong way.

No shellfish? Oh I like shellfish so i'll eat it. Homosexuality on the other hand?? Wrong..wrong...wrong cause the bible says so!!

amb · 16th August 2010, 05:27 AM

AvalonXQ · 16th August 2010, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

and btw, the SCOTUS found the internment to be a violation of the law.

No, they didn't. In Korematsu, SCOTUS upheld the internment as Constitutional.

GreyArea · 16th August 2010, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by TheDevilCried

Well i guess i am just old school and not too ready to change and embrace ways that i don't have any care about, for me it is more to do with disliking all forms of cult like religions than it has to do with people.

Originally Posted by manofthesea

I don't get all the righteous indignation being displayed in defense of a woo temple.

The center of this question is the appropriate role of government, be they local, state, or national, and equal treatment of American citizens. It's not "righteous indignation" about religion as much as defense of the idea of personal liberty, and discussion of when such liberty is harmful enough to justify or require public impositions.

Do either of you think that the government should block the reconstruction of St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church at the WTC site itself, because it is a woo temple? (Map here: http://mediamatters.org/blog/201008020019 )

Do either of you think that the government should block the construction of a new nondenominational church in Summerville, South Carolina, because it is a woo temple?

Meanwhile, a new development plan has been released for a section of San Francisco, and people are complaining that no houses of worship have been planned for that neighborhood. Should the government block any such revisions to the plan, or the future construction of any woo temples?

Why or why not? In answering this last question you might go far in illuminating the differences in perspective around the Cordoba House issue.

bikerdruid · 16th August 2010, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by Juniversal

Thankfully Christians are lazy enough to selectively read the bible or ignore the verses in the old testement that rub them the wrong way.

No shellfish? Oh I like shellfish so i'll eat it. Homosexuality on the other hand?? Wrong..wrong...wrong cause the bible says so!!

i have had this argument with 'christians many times.
i am told that the old laws were cancelled by jesus, but since paul also condemned queers, that they are still an 'abomination'.

Thunder · 16th August 2010, 09:29 AM

I would have no problem with an inter-faith chapel being built within the GZ complex, but no specific houses of worship should be built.

whats done outside of GZ is not my concern.

AvalonXQ · 16th August 2010, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Juniversal

Thankfully Christians are lazy enough to selectively read the bible or ignore the verses in the old testement that rub them the wrong way.

No shellfish? Oh I like shellfish so i'll eat it. Homosexuality on the other hand?? Wrong..wrong...wrong cause the bible says so!!

Read the New Testament; it's clear on both issues (shellfish fine, homosexuality not fine).

Thunder · 16th August 2010, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Read the New Testament; it's clear on both issues (shellfish fine, homosexuality not fine).

ever ingest any blood with your steak or chicken? thats against the rules in the NEW Testament.

ever eat an animal that was killed by strangulation? that too violates the NT.

as does praying to idols, which ALL Roman Catholics are guilty of.

sorry for the derail.

AvalonXQ · 16th August 2010, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

ever ingest any blood with your steak or chicken? thats against the rules in the NEW Testament.

That's against the rules that a body of believers agreed upon for the Gentile Christians to follow in the early church.
In Romans 14, Paul also explains that dietary restrictions like this are a matter of cultural respect for the people around you, not a matter of salvation. Christians don't have dietary restrictions, but groups of Christians do collectively agree to avoid things others may have problems with or find offensive.
And this is a derail. Any response to your mistake regarding Japanese-American internment?

Mister Earl · 16th August 2010, 09:41 AM

I've half considered going to the location to do my own counter-protest. With a sign reading "Freedom for all, not for some". Let them build the mosque. It's their right.

Thunder · 16th August 2010, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Earl

I've half considered going to the location to do my own counter-protest. With a sign reading "Freedom for all, not for some". Let them build the mosque. It's their right.

there is going to be a protest by these haters on 9-11.

wanna join me? its a Saturday? I'll be holding a sign regarding the 1st Amendment and American values.

maybe "Freedom of Religion for some= freedom for none".

Lurker · 16th August 2010, 10:23 AM

...the one secret communist atheist antichrist kenyan muslim who is a shill for the all powerful joos and eats babies with dijon mustard on them.

Mister Earl · 16th August 2010, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

there is going to be a protest by these haters on 9-11.

wanna join me? its a Saturday? I'll be holding a sign regarding the 1st Amendment and American values.

maybe "Freedom of Religion for some= freedom for none".

Sounds good, actually! Maybe I'll even come in my old military uniform. Also, perhaps we could counter-protest in the manner the comic-con folks counter protested the fred phelps gang? Here's what I suggest: One sign for each of us: One reading, "Careful, now!" and the other "Down with this sort of thing!"

Thunder · 16th August 2010, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mister Earl

Sounds good, actually! Maybe I'll even come in my old military uniform. Also, perhaps we could counter-protest in the manner the comic-con folks counter protested the fred phelps gang? Here's what I suggest: One sign for each of us: One reading, "Careful, now!" and the other "Down with this sort of thing!"

i'll wear my badge around my neck. and have an American flag as well.

Mister Earl · 16th August 2010, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

i'll wear my badge around my neck. and have an American flag as well.

Hrm! I just noticed that it's less than a month away. I'll have to snap to it tonight to begin preperations. I want to be there.

ANTPogo · 16th August 2010, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

No, they didn't. In Korematsu, SCOTUS upheld the internment as Constitutional.

No they didn't. While SCOTUS has never declared the overall mass internment as unconstitutional, neither did they uphold its constitutionality. The Korematsu decision explicitly stated it was a ruling only on the matter of the general exclusion order and wasn't making any decision one way or another on the internment issue. Ex parte Endo, handed down the same day, did say that the government couldn't intern anyone they knew to be loyal, though, which is as close as SCOTUS got to ruling on the internment issue itself, and it was mostly unfavorable to the mass imprisonment of Japanese-Americans in camps.

GreyArea · 16th August 2010, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Lurker

...the one secret communist atheist antichrist kenyan muslim who is a shill for the all powerful joos and eats babies with dijon mustard on them.

How very like him to get cozy with the French, or should I say, the cheese-eating surrender-monkeys!

What more proof do we need?

15th August 2010, 08:28 AM	#361
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes I would classify as sect any religious belief that does not allow for long-term, peaceful coexistence with non-believers, and does not allow its members to freely and without reprisal abandon the faith unconditionally. While a healthy democracy requires us to be open-minded and accepting of major differences, I see no contradiction in being intolerant of an aggressive sect, such as Islam, that openly preaches the antithesis of the cherished ideals that underlie democracy.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

15th August 2010, 01:56 PM	#363
bikerdruid hermit hippy weirdo Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: green island autonomous zone Posts: 7,369	Originally Posted by Thunder this is disgusting. agreed. maybe we can come up with some pics of a bloody corpse of an abortion clinic worker blown up by christians....
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15th August 2010, 03:05 PM	#364
Myshkin Scholar Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 67	A long time lurker speaks: Seems to me we have a choice between 1) leading by example, and 2) debasing ourselves by adopting the tactics and rhetoric of the vile pieces of excrement that perpetrated the 9-11 attacks. I do have a problem Islam. Among the current major religions, it appears to be disproportionately violent, but this is a topic for another discussion, and more importantly, is irrelevant to the question at hand. In an ideal America, we would practice what we preach and all faiths (as idiotic as they might be) would be treated equally. The decision to allow a mosque in a given location should be subject to the exact same rules as the decision to allow any other religious facility. Everyone deserves justice. In the case of the 9/11 attacks, the guilty deserve to rot forever in prison and the innocent - even those that were jumping around being *******s celebrating the attacks, or are planning to open their facility on 9/11 - justly deserve equal rights until they forfeit them by the rule of law. Call me naive, but this is why I love this country, and this is what I want my country to be. We should do what is right, not what makes us comfortable or allows us to gratify our vengeance.
Myshkin Scholar Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 67

15th August 2010, 03:23 PM	#365
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,675	Jesus would allow it
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

15th August 2010, 04:49 PM	#369
Telltale Tom Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 384	There is a strip club one and half blocks from the hallowed ground at zero. I wonder why none of the christian or jewish groups complain about that. I assume that their view is that in christian terms a house of degradation is better than a house of worship of a competing religion.
Telltale Tom Guest Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 384	Last edited by Telltale Tom; 15th August 2010 at 05:02 PM.

15th August 2010, 01:37 PM	#362
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by GreNME http://image.grenme.com/thread/islam5.jpg this is disgusting.

15th August 2010, 03:54 PM	#366
I Am The Scum Graduate Poster Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,549	Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes Not only would I say "no mosque at ground zero," but also no protection under the law as religion of any teaching that does not allow, indeed forbids, peaceful coexistence with nonbelievers. The right to freedom of religion (conscience) must be understood as equally guaranteeing freedom from religious coercion. Do you deny that there are millions of Muslims in America that peacefully coexist with their non-Muslim neighbors? If not, how do you reconcile this fact with the rest of your post?

15th August 2010, 04:10 PM	#367
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by bikerdruid agreed. maybe we can come up with some pics of a bloody corpse of an abortion clinic worker blown up by christians.... yes. lets all post some pics of the children murdered at OKC, by a right-wing, gun loving Conservative Christian.

15th August 2010, 04:12 PM	#368
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,466	Originally Posted by Myshkin Seems to me we have a choice between 1) leading by example, and 2) debasing ourselves by adopting the tactics and rhetoric of the vile pieces of excrement that perpetrated the 9-11 attacks. I do have a problem Islam. Among the current major religions, it appears to be disproportionately violent, but this is a topic for another discussion, and more importantly, is irrelevant to the question at hand. In an ideal America, we would practice what we preach and all faiths (as idiotic as they might be) would be treated equally. The decision to allow a mosque in a given location should be subject to the exact same rules as the decision to allow any other religious facility. Everyone deserves justice. In the case of the 9/11 attacks, the guilty deserve to rot forever in prison and the innocent - even those that were jumping around being ******s celebrating the attacks, or are planning to open their facility on 9/11 - justly deserve equal rights until they forfeit them by the rule of law. Call me naive, but this is why I love this country, and this is what I want my country to be. We should do what is right, not what makes us comfortable or allows us to gratify our vengeance. Damn straight. As Jon Stewart said, “If you don't stick to your principles when the chips are down, they're not principles… they're hobbies*.”

15th August 2010, 05:21 PM	#370
RedRatSnake Slithering Through life Join Date: May 2008 Location: Southie, Massachusetts. Posts: 1,625	Originally Posted by GreNME http://image.grenme.com/thread/islam5.jpg I really don't see why this picture got the replies it did by a few folks, come on guys really how can you possibly compare it too pics of a bloody corpse of an abortion clinic worker ?

15th August 2010, 05:50 PM	#371
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by TheDevilCried I really don't see why this picture got the replies it did by a few folks, come on guys really how can you possibly compare it too pics of a bloody corpse of an abortion clinic worker ? easily. both pics would be meant to shock and appeal to the emotions of the onlooker. one would seek to associate all Christians with abortion-clinic bombers, the other to associate all Muslims with the terrorists of 9-11.

15th August 2010, 06:05 PM	#372
bikerdruid hermit hippy weirdo Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: green island autonomous zone Posts: 7,369	Originally Posted by Telltale Tom There is a strip club one and half blocks from the hallowed ground at zero. I wonder why none of the christian or jewish groups complain about that. simple...more 'christians ' will frequent the strip club than will go to the mosque. we don't wanna interfere with free enterprise, after all, we are talking america here...
	__________________ Subvert the Dominant Paradigm!!

15th August 2010, 06:07 PM	#373
bikerdruid hermit hippy weirdo Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: green island autonomous zone Posts: 7,369	Originally Posted by thunder easily. Both pics would be meant to shock and appeal to the emotions of the onlooker. One would seek to associate all christians with abortion-clinic bombers, the other to associate all muslims with the terrorists of 9-11. bingo!
	__________________ Subvert the Dominant Paradigm!!

15th August 2010, 06:07 PM	#374
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	I'll be honest, listening to some of the rhetoric against the Mosque is a bit frightening. I hear echos of 1936. I really do. It truly shocks me that soo many Americans could have such a poor commitment to freedom, equality, and tolerance. If anything, you would think that out of ALL Americans, New Yorkers would be the most extreme on this issue. And yet we are not. We aren't talking about face covering burqas or Sharia law or allowing Muslim cabdrivers refuse folks carrying alchohol. We are simply talking about the building of a Muslim house of worship, by moderate Muslims. Nazi Germany guys, read about it. Read about how it started and where it ended up.
	Last edited by Thunder; 15th August 2010 at 06:09 PM.

15th August 2010, 06:34 PM	#375
RedRatSnake Slithering Through life Join Date: May 2008 Location: Southie, Massachusetts. Posts: 1,625	I don't know why you are so shocked or taking it too hard cause in time it will all fade away, hey ! look at how much folks get riled up with sports right, it's just currant news right now and needs to be addressed so we all know we ain't alone and others feel as we do no matter what there stand on the subject, it's just human nature, in the end no one of us has a say all we can do is shout out what we feel hopefully in a civil manner.

15th August 2010, 06:39 PM	#376
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by TheDevilCried I don't know why you are so shocked or taking it too hard cause in time it will all fade away, . this is what they said about the Nazis, in 1933. Originally Posted by TheDevilCried hey ! look at how much folks get riled up with sports right, it's just currant news right now and needs to be addressed so we all know we ain't alone and others feel as we do no matter what there stand on the subject, it's just human nature, in the end no one of us has a say all we can do is shout out what we feel hopefully in a civil manner. that's until the harrassing phone calls to the homes of construction workers start. that's until the eggs start getting thrown. that's until the midnight firebombs are tossed. this is our 1933 moment, and I pray we do what is right.

15th August 2010, 07:00 PM	#377
RedRatSnake Slithering Through life Join Date: May 2008 Location: Southie, Massachusetts. Posts: 1,625	There you go with the Nazis again, that was another country and another time . . . . . as for the rest of the post thats a prediction and total speculation on your part and something i see as really looking down on the American people as a whole.

15th August 2010, 07:07 PM	#378
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by TheDevilCried There you go with the Nazis again, that was another country and another time . . . . . as for the rest of the post thats a prediction and total speculation on your part and something i see as really looking down on the American people as a whole. Germany between 1919 and 1933 was a functioning democracy, with many liberal-progressives leading the charge. They had a working constitution which guarunteed freedom and civil rights for all citizens. Not too unlike, the USA. Double-dip recession, unemployment hitting 12%, Muslims building a big Mosque near GZ, could be a recipe for a catastrophe.

15th August 2010, 07:19 PM	#379
RedRatSnake Slithering Through life Join Date: May 2008 Location: Southie, Massachusetts. Posts: 1,625	I got more faith in my fellow Americans than you do i guess, i don't think the building will cause any panic or bring every day things to a screaming halt, we will forge on and deal with it as needed, it won't effect my way of life at all, it will just make me a little bit sad that some will give into yet another screaming religion that crys foul

15th August 2010, 07:22 PM	#380
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by TheDevilCried I got more faith in my fellow Americans than you do i guess, in 1863, the Irish decided that it was not fare that there was a draft and rich folks could buy out of it. so they rioted throughout NYC for days, murdering THOUSANDS of blacks. in 1941, the USA put hundreds of thousands of innocent Japanese Americans into interment camps, and took away their property. up until the 1970s, it was pretty much legal to lynch a black man who dared to look at a white woman. yes, perhaps you do have more faith in the American people than I.

15th August 2010, 07:35 PM	#381
RedRatSnake Slithering Through life Join Date: May 2008 Location: Southie, Massachusetts. Posts: 1,625	I ain't even going to comment on what happened in 1863 1941 there was a war going on and the government did what they thought was right to protect the county, we treated our prisoners better than what the other country did to there prisoners of war. In 1970 i went threw the forced busing and i'll tell you right now the racial tensions were brought on by the government and not the folks that were involved in it, over time we all healed and today i see everyone getting along just fine.

15th August 2010, 07:42 PM	#382
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by TheDevilCried I 1941 there was a war going on and the government did what they thought was right to protect the county, we treated our prisoners better than what the other country did to there prisoners of war. err...um...we are talking AMERICAN CITIZENS....NOT POWS!!! and btw, the SCOTUS found the internment to be a violation of the law.

15th August 2010, 07:50 PM	#383
RedRatSnake Slithering Through life Join Date: May 2008 Location: Southie, Massachusetts. Posts: 1,625	were way off topic here but all i can say is we / Americans didn't be head folks or freeze body parts as our counter parts did and i don't think we will be starting to do that here just cause there is going to be an Islam Mosque built, we have the right to protest here in this country with out worrying about being shot and i think that a pretty cool deal.

15th August 2010, 09:21 PM	#384
Juniversal CIA + FBI + NWO Employee Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Cincinnati, USA Posts: 1,845	Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes Ground zero for democracy is the shared covenant of agreeing to disagree nonviolently, without which freedom in diversity is impossible. The polar opposite of democratic tolerance is the proposition that a particular belief is beyond question to the point of ascribing to itself the right to impose, by violence or subterfuge, its "truths." Islam does both, including support for ambushing and slaying non-believers (terrorism). A totalitarian view is most definitely enshrined in the basic tenets and teachings of Islam, at its core and not just at the extreme fringes. While potent anti-violent themes ("love thy enemy") can be found at the core of Christianity to offset the arguments of its more extreme adherents, and Judaism, while intolerant, is by nature tribal and so lacks a global expansionist view, Islam preaches a view of all non-believers as lacking in rights and so any real protection from unbounded persecution, barring forced conversion. IOW, I may not subscribe to Christian nor Jewish beliefs, but feel there is a way to peacefully coexist with them in a 21st century democracy. I would classify as sect any religious belief that does not allow for long-term, peaceful coexistence with non-believers, and does not allow its members to freely and without reprisal abandon the faith unconditionally. While a healthy democracy requires us to be open-minded and accepting of major differences, I see no contradiction in being intolerant of an aggressive sect, such as Islam, that openly preaches the antithesis of the cherished ideals that underlie democracy. Not only would I say "no mosque at ground zero," but also no protection under the law as religion of any teaching that does not allow, indeed forbids, peaceful coexistence with nonbelievers. The right to freedom of religion (conscience) must be understood as equally guaranteeing freedom from religious coercion. Believe you me, the Christian bible is just as inolerant and barbaric as the Quaran. Fundamentalist pracitioners of Islam are not paticularly leniate when it comes to practicing the Religion like Christian Fundamentalist are. Generally speaking Christianity might be more "kind hearted" relative to Islam but if Christians were to stricly practice as directed by the bible then Christians would seem just as violent as Muslims. The Christian bible isn't very tolerant of non-Christians (See: Kill followers of other Religions). Thankfully Christians are lazy enough to selectively read the bible or ignore the verses in the old testement that rub them the wrong way. No shellfish? Oh I like shellfish so i'll eat it. Homosexuality on the other hand?? Wrong..wrong...wrong cause the bible says so!!
	__________________ "God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance." - Neil deGrasse Tyson

16th August 2010, 05:27 AM	#385
amb Guest Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Western Australia Posts: 21,408

16th August 2010, 09:20 AM	#386
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Thunder and btw, the SCOTUS found the internment to be a violation of the law. No, they didn't. In Korematsu, SCOTUS upheld the internment as Constitutional.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

16th August 2010, 09:25 AM	#387
GreyArea Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,000	Originally Posted by TheDevilCried Well i guess i am just old school and not too ready to change and embrace ways that i don't have any care about, for me it is more to do with disliking all forms of cult like religions than it has to do with people. Originally Posted by manofthesea I don't get all the righteous indignation being displayed in defense of a woo temple. The center of this question is the appropriate role of government, be they local, state, or national, and equal treatment of American citizens. It's not "righteous indignation" about religion as much as defense of the idea of personal liberty, and discussion of when such liberty is harmful enough to justify or require public impositions. Do either of you think that the government should block the reconstruction of St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church at the WTC site itself, because it is a woo temple? (Map here: http://mediamatters.org/blog/201008020019 ) Do either of you think that the government should block the construction of a new nondenominational church in Summerville, South Carolina, because it is a woo temple? Meanwhile, a new development plan has been released for a section of San Francisco, and people are complaining that no houses of worship have been planned for that neighborhood. Should the government block any such revisions to the plan, or the future construction of any woo temples? Why or why not? In answering this last question you might go far in illuminating the differences in perspective around the Cordoba House issue.

16th August 2010, 09:25 AM	#388
bikerdruid hermit hippy weirdo Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: green island autonomous zone Posts: 7,369	Originally Posted by Juniversal Thankfully Christians are lazy enough to selectively read the bible or ignore the verses in the old testement that rub them the wrong way. No shellfish? Oh I like shellfish so i'll eat it. Homosexuality on the other hand?? Wrong..wrong...wrong cause the bible says so!! i have had this argument with 'christians many times. i am told that the old laws were cancelled by jesus, but since paul also condemned queers, that they are still an 'abomination'.
	__________________ Subvert the Dominant Paradigm!!

16th August 2010, 09:29 AM	#389
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	I would have no problem with an inter-faith chapel being built within the GZ complex, but no specific houses of worship should be built. whats done outside of GZ is not my concern.

16th August 2010, 09:32 AM	#390
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Juniversal Thankfully Christians are lazy enough to selectively read the bible or ignore the verses in the old testement that rub them the wrong way. No shellfish? Oh I like shellfish so i'll eat it. Homosexuality on the other hand?? Wrong..wrong...wrong cause the bible says so!! Read the New Testament; it's clear on both issues (shellfish fine, homosexuality not fine).
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

16th August 2010, 09:35 AM	#391
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Read the New Testament; it's clear on both issues (shellfish fine, homosexuality not fine). ever ingest any blood with your steak or chicken? thats against the rules in the NEW Testament. ever eat an animal that was killed by strangulation? that too violates the NT. as does praying to idols, which ALL Roman Catholics are guilty of. sorry for the derail.

16th August 2010, 09:38 AM	#392
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Thunder ever ingest any blood with your steak or chicken? thats against the rules in the NEW Testament. That's against the rules that a body of believers agreed upon for the Gentile Christians to follow in the early church. In Romans 14, Paul also explains that dietary restrictions like this are a matter of cultural respect for the people around you, not a matter of salvation. Christians don't have dietary restrictions, but groups of Christians do collectively agree to avoid things others may have problems with or find offensive. And this is a derail. Any response to your mistake regarding Japanese-American internment?
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

16th August 2010, 09:41 AM	#393
Mister Earl Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,143	I've half considered going to the location to do my own counter-protest. With a sign reading "Freedom for all, not for some". Let them build the mosque. It's their right.

16th August 2010, 09:53 AM	#394
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Mister Earl I've half considered going to the location to do my own counter-protest. With a sign reading "Freedom for all, not for some". Let them build the mosque. It's their right. there is going to be a protest by these haters on 9-11. wanna join me? its a Saturday? I'll be holding a sign regarding the 1st Amendment and American values. maybe "Freedom of Religion for some= freedom for none".

16th August 2010, 10:23 AM	#395
Lurker Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,187	...the one secret communist atheist antichrist kenyan muslim who is a shill for the all powerful joos and eats babies with dijon mustard on them.
Lurker Illuminator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,187