Merged: Two Mosques to be built near Ground Zero

[Cleon]

Edited by Tricky:

Edited for Rule 12.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

Well, all true muslims are terrorists. But most think Islam is not political and delude themselves into thinking Islam is a religion of peace.

and all TRUE Christians are poor and homeless.

[Travis]

So, it looks things came to a head this Sunday.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...e-protest.html

http://dnainfo.com/20100604/manhatta...#ixzz0ptVHrSTz

LOWER MANHATTAN — Less than 72 hours before a large protest against the ground zero mosque, both the demonstrators and the police are making final plans.

The D-Day protest, which will likely draw hundreds of people, starts at noon on Sunday at the corner of Church and Liberty Streets, across from the World Trade Center site.

The NYPD’s 1st Precinct has called in extra officers from the Borough Manhattan South Patrol, and the NYPD is finalizing crowd control plans, a police official told DNAinfo.

“We’re absolutely aware of it,” the official said. “We’re working with the organization to make sure it goes smoothly.”

"Ground zero is a war memorial, a burial ground,” Pamela Geller, executive director of SIOA, said in an e-mail to DNAinfo this week. “A mosque is incredibly insensitive."

BE THERE AT THE CORNER OF CHURCH AND LIBERTY TO PROTEST THE ISLAMIC SUPREMACIST MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO.

SIOA Rally June 6 Against Islamic Supremacist Mosque At Ground Zero

The SIOA No 9/11 Mosque Rally will be at the corner of Church and Liberty Streets, near Ground Zero. Supporting groups include the Freedom Defense Initiative; ACT for America (ACT Manhattan chapter); Z Street; SIOE; No Mosque at Ground Zero; Staten Island Tea Party; American Bulldogs; VAST; the Center for Security Policy; Shalom International; the Unity Coalition for Israel; 911 Families; Indian American Intellectuals Forum; Veterans Against Jihad (VAJ); and Faith Freedom International.

... Building the Ground Zero mosque is not an issue of religious freedom, but of resisting an effort to insult the victims of 9/11 and to establish a beachhead for political Islam and Islamic supremacism in New York.

Pictures of the event can be found here, here and here.

It seems some Truthers showed up too.

[Thunder]

look at all the "No Mosque in Ground Zero" signs.

these fascists are soooo stupid. do ANY of them know that the Mosque will be 2.5 blocks away from GZ, and out of sight?

morons and bigots...all of them.

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by Thunder

morons and bigots...all of them.

Thats all that needs to be said about this issue really.

[Skeptic]

To quote what I said in the other thread:

Let us imagine for a minute that the "Jenin Massacre" of thousands of Palestinians in 2002 were real, and not an Arab propaganda lie.

Let us imagine that this massacre was celebrated throughout Israel by dancing in the street and claiming that it is Jehovah's judgment on the unbelieving Palestinians, who should convert to Judaism as soon as possible.

Let us imagine further that, afterward, Israel decide to build a huge synagogue right on the point of the biggest atrocity of all in the massacre, right on the spot of the ruins of a -- say -- a hospital that was razed to the ground with all inside killed during it.

What would you say then about religious freedom, folks? Would you consider those who protest the synagogue nothing but evil antisemites? Would quotes from the Bible or the Talmud about decent treatment towards non-Jews be to the point justifying this?

Or would you realize the obvious truth, that, like this Saudi-funded mosque, such a synagogue's main purpose would not so much be religious worship, but a deliberate political and imperialist poke in the eye to the infidels?

...exactly.

Of course my example is purely theoretical and hypothetical. Jews, whatever their faults, are not known to celebrate victories (or defeats) with grand architectural imperialism. The tiny group that wants to raze the Mosque on the dome of the rock and rebuilt the temple, for example, makes a lot of noise, but constitutes, perhaps, 0.1% of Israeli Jews (to say nothing of Jews in general.)

This mosque, however, is real. It's establishing a place for Islamic worship, at the site of the big victory of the forces of Islam over the infidels, as a sign of ownership and an memorial of the victory: a very old Islamic tradition, starting from Mecca and Medina, continuing (in the 700s) in Jerusalem and Damascus, continuing later in Al-Andalus, Constantinople, etc.

It is one thing if you did this sort of thing in 600, 700, or 1400 AD. Back then standards were different, and Christians (for instance) acted in the same way. The whole problem with Islam, however, it is that it is hell-bent, at least today the same sort of conquest-filled imperialism as it was 1000 years ago.

[chillzero]

You might have had a point if this was anything like what you describe, instead of simply improving the facilities at an already exisiting building, blocks away from Ground Zero .... but even then, it would be tenuous.

[DC]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

To quote what I said in the other thread:

Let us imagine for a minute that the "Jenin Massacre" of thousands of Palestinians in 2002 were real, and not an Arab propaganda lie.

Let us imagine that this massacre was celebrated throughout Israel by dancing in the street and claiming that it is Jehovah's judgment on the unbelieving Palestinians, who should convert to Judaism as soon as possible.

Let us imagine further that, afterward, Israel decide to build a huge synagogue right on the point of the biggest atrocity of all in the massacre, right on the spot of the ruins of a -- say -- a hospital that was razed to the ground with all inside killed during it.

What would you say then about religious freedom, folks? Would you consider those who protest the synagogue nothing but evil antisemites? Would quotes from the Bible or the Talmud about decent treatment towards non-Jews be to the point justifying this?

Or would you realize the obvious truth, that, like this Saudi-funded mosque, such a synagogue's main purpose would not so much be religious worship, but a deliberate political and imperialist poke in the eye to the infidels?

...exactly.

Of course my example is purely theoretical and hypothetical. Jews, whatever their faults, are not known to celebrate victories (or defeats) with grand architectural imperialism. The tiny group that wants to raze the Mosque on the dome of the rock and rebuilt the temple, for example, makes a lot of noise, but constitutes, perhaps, 0.1% of Israeli Jews (to say nothing of Jews in general.)

This mosque, however, is real. It's establishing a place for Islamic worship, at the site of the big victory of the forces of Islam over the infidels, as a sign of ownership and an memorial of the victory: a very old Islamic tradition, starting from Mecca and Medina, continuing (in the 700s) in Jerusalem and Damascus, continuing later in Al-Andalus, Constantinople, etc.

It is one thing if you did this sort of thing in 600, 700, or 1400 AD. Back then standards were different, and Christians (for instance) acted in the same way. The whole problem with Islam, however, it is that it is hell-bent, at least today the same sort of conquest-filled imperialism as it was 1000 years ago.

Moslems and Moslem groups around the globe have condemned the terror atacks on 9/11.

[jakesteele]

Originally Posted by Thunder

anyways...

there is no good reason not to build a mosque near GZ. there are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in NYC and they have the right to build religious and cultural institutions.

So you would have no problem if someone opened a hot dog stand that also sold pork rinds and ham sandwiches on the sidewalk right outside the mosque entrance even if the muslims raised 'holy hell' about it?

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

So you would have no problem if someone opened a hot dog stand that also sold pork rinds and ham sandwiches on the sidewalk right outside the mosque entrance even if the muslims raised 'holy hell' about it?

if the purpose of the hot dog stand was to insult and offend the Muslims, than I might have a problem with it.

any evidence that this Mosque is being built to insult and offend Americans?

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

This mosque, however, is real. It's establishing a place for Islamic worship, at the site of the big victory of the forces of Islam over the infidels, as a sign of ownership and an memorial of the victory:

no. its 2.5 blocks away. and out of sight of GZ.

get your facts straight.

and 9-11 was done by Muslim extremists, NOT mainstream Muslims.

its like saying Yigal Amir or Meir Kahane was just your average Jew.

would you be against a Lutheran Church being built 2.5 blocks away from the gates of Auschwitz? how about 2.5 blocks away from Yad Vashem?

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

In the thread over at General Forums at subsim.com, several other forumers went to great length to explain to us naďve sheep that Islam is a violent, woman-hating, intolerant religion because the Qur'an says so and so. When I pointed out to them that there are moderates among Muslims, too, and that this centre was being built to promote this approach to Islam, they immediately told me that moderate Muslims are not "true Muslims", and that the Qur'an says the "real" Muslims should kill them. At that point, I left the thread.

At a conservative site I lurk at this came up and they too went on and on about the eviiils of Islam using the same language you refer to above. A fellow conservative pointed out to them the first amendment and the government cannot stop them from building the mosque the rest of them turned on him and reviled him for his lack of understanding the Constitution. If I recall correctly their arguments were one of either:

1. The bill of rights only restricts what the federal government can do. State and local government are ok to discriminate on the basis of religion.

2. Islam does not qualify as a religion

3. The Constitution is not a suicide pact and in times of war, like this, we can suspend certain parts of it.

The poor conservative who argued against these self-proclaimed "constitutionalists" was ridiculed roundly and accused of being a liberal.

ETA: I forgot to add that they all know that teh mosque will become a training ground for new terrorists. Seriously.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Lurker

1. The bill of rights only restricts what the federal government can do. State and local government are ok to discriminate on the basis of religion.

2. Islam does not qualify as a religion

3. The Constitution is not a suicide pact and in times of war, like this, we can suspend certain parts of it.
.

#1. State, city, and local laws can indeed violate Federal law and be unConstitutional.

#2. Islam IS a religion.

#3. We are not at war against Muslim-Americans. If we are, I suggest we put them all into concentration camps.

[Skeptic]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

So you would have no problem if someone opened a hot dog stand that also sold pork rinds and ham sandwiches on the sidewalk right outside the mosque entrance even if the muslims raised 'holy hell' about it?

This is New York City.

There probably is a hot dog stand that sells that outside the mosque as we speak.

Owned by an immigrant from some Islamic country, chances are...

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

This is New York City.

Yes. This IS....NYC.

And here, we tolerate differences of opinion, and different faiths.

We believe in freedom of religion. This is a very central part of our long colonial history, going all the way back to the 1640s, when Peter Stuyvesant tried to persecute the Quakers and Jews.

Learn the history of your city. We are not bigots. This new Muslim cultural center with a mosque inside is more than welcome.

[TraneWreck]

Originally Posted by Thunder

#1. State, city, and local laws can indeed violate Federal law and be unConstitutional.

I don't remember everything I learned in law school, but there was some event, around 1860, I think, that sort of made that point...

[funk de fino]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

Of course my example is purely theoretical and hypothetical.

Also stupid, incorrect and irrelevant.

[DC]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Yes. This IS....NYC.

And here, we tolerate differences of opinion, and different faiths.

We believe in freedom of religion. This is a very central part of our long colonial history, going all the way back to the 1640s, when Peter Stuyvesant tried to persecute the Quakers and Jews.

Learn the history of your city. We are not bigots. This new Muslim cultural center with a mosque inside is more than welcome.

Not anymore

http://www.native-languages.org/york.htm

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

This mosque, however, is real. It's establishing a place for Islamic worship, at the site of the big victory of the forces of Islam over the infidels, as a sign of ownership and an memorial of the victory: a very old Islamic tradition, starting from Mecca and Medina, continuing (in the 700s) in Jerusalem and Damascus, continuing later in Al-Andalus, Constantinople, etc.

Because Islam equals terrorism? Right! I get it!

[Foolmewunz]

Originally Posted by Skeptic

This is New York City.

There probably is a hot dog stand that sells that outside the mosque as we speak.

Owned by an immigrant from some Islamic country, chances are...

Selling all-beef hot dogs (to piss of the Indians).

C'mon Skeptic! At least get SOME of the facts straight. New York street hot dogs have been all beef for a century. To appease the ebil joos, of course.

[Travis]

Does anyone find it funny that none of the protesters actually showed up at the building in question?

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Travis

Does anyone find it funny that none of the protesters actually showed up at the building in question?

well, that would have made them look kinda stupid.

you can't protest a mosque being built "AT" Ground Zero, if you protest infront of the actual location, which is 2.5 blocks away from Ground Zero.

i'll bet 75% of the bigots and jerks who protested on Sunday actualy believe the mosque will be built in GZ.

fascists and bigots, all of them.

[GreyArea]

I didn't see any street vendors on that block of Park Place when I looked at Google Streetview. But the Amish Market on the corner has ham sandwiches all day and pork chops by the pound! They also offer hummus in the salad buffet, so YMMV.

By the way, can any of you see the World Trade Center site from 45 Park Place? I can't.

This manufactured outrage is like some weird mutant strain of Blut und Boden. New York City is better than that.

And is it just me, or does Feisal Abdul Rauf look like Shepherd Book from Firefly?

[stilicho]

Originally Posted by Thunder

i'll bet 75% of the bigots and jerks who protested on Sunday actualy believe the mosque will be built in GZ.

Would it make a difference if a mosque was built right on the site of the former WTC?

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by stilicho

Would it make a difference if a mosque was built right on the site of the former WTC?

i would have no problem with an inter-denominational chapel being built at GZ.

[Bill Thompson]

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Exactly, religions are nothing but inclusive.

Why is it that every time Islam is concerned this board's militant atheism goes right out the window?

Cowardly Fear;
and/or
the fact that it is envogue to side against Israel.

[Bill Thompson]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Thank you, Bill. There just wasn't enough stupid in this thread.

You have been brainwashed.
I would like to think like you do. But I cannot deny facts. You can. You do.
I say it is stupid to ignore reality just because it is distasteful and unpleasent.
You do not explain why I am wrong. You just attack the arguer and not the argument.
I am right. What proof do you need? I suggest you browse "the religion of peace" website.

Dude, it sucks that you call someone stupid just because what someone says is unbelievable, you do not want to believe, and you really don't know if what you think is correct. Yours is no different than the intellectual honesty of a biblical fundamentalist who clings onto ideas like The Great Flood.

[Bill Thompson]

Originally Posted by Thunder

and all TRUE Christians are poor and homeless.

You are right. There are virtually no true Christians. This is thanks to the fact that most Christian societies have gone through The Age of Reason. Most Muslim societies have not.

Most Christians call the bible "the inspired word of God"

Most Muslims call the Qur'an "The literal word of Allah"

There is a difference.

You cannot be logical and say that just as Modern Christians do not embrace poverty as Christ taught, all Modern Muslims do not embrace killing of non Muslims as Mohammed taught.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

Most Muslims call the Qur'an "The literal word of Allah"

not the Muslims I know.

you must know a lot of weirdo Muslims.

[Slayhamlet]

Originally Posted by Thunder

not the Muslims I know.

you must know a lot of weirdo Muslims.

That's mainstream Islamic theology, Parky. The different conception of revelation between Islam and Christianity doesn't really have anything to do with the Enlightenment, though. To lots of fundamentalist Christians "inspired word of God" means the same thing as "literal word of God".

[Thunder]

The Orthodox Jews I know consider the Tanakh, and especially the Torah, to be the literal spoken word of God.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Bill Thompson

You have been brainwashed.

Yes, I recall clearly, as a young child, having my eyes pried open and being forced to watch hours and hours of films showing the horrors of religious intolerance while displaying the message "people of a different faith are still people, just like everyone else." To this day I still feel sick to my stomach every time I see someone display mindless intolerance towards people of an entire ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, or faith.

Unfortunately I can't listen to Beethoven anymore, but whatchagonnado.

[Scootch]

Originally Posted by Thunder

i would have no problem with an inter-denominational chapel being built at GZ.

The question was would you have a problem with a mosque at ground zero, not a interdenominational chapel.


I have to admit my knee jerk reaction to this news was that they shouldn't build a mosque anywhere near the wtc, but the more I thought about the more I thought they should be allowed to build anywhere they want. I think though my knee jerk reaction had something to do with the opening of the mosque being on September 11, but bad taste isn't enough to warrant restricting people's religious freedom.

[KingMerv00]

Originally Posted by Lurker

1. The bill of rights only restricts what the federal government can do. State and local government are ok to discriminate on the basis of religion.

2. Islam does not qualify as a religion

3. The Constitution is not a suicide pact and in times of war, like this, we can suspend certain parts of it.

Holy crap are they wrong.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Yes, I recall clearly, as a young child, having my eyes pried open and being forced to watch hours and hours of films showing the horrors of religious intolerance while displaying the message "people of a different faith are still people, just like everyone else." To this day I still feel sick to my stomach every time I see someone display mindless intolerance towards people of an entire ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, or faith.

Unfortunately I can't listen to Beethoven anymore, but whatchagonnado.

They didn't take away the "ole in'n out" from you too did they?

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Travis

They didn't take away the "ole in'n out" away from you too did they?

I've heard no complaints, my droog.

[Travis]

Ha, thanks for quoting me. I wouldn't have noticed my typo otherwise.

[brodski]

Originally Posted by Cleon

Unfortunately I can't listen to Beethoven anymore, but whatchagonnado.

Yeah, sorry about that.

[hgc]

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

I don't remember everything I learned in law school, but there was some event, around 1860, I think, that sort of made that point...

There are many who have not accepted the conclusion of that event, in the same way they don't accept the 14th amendment.

[Dorian Gray]

They build two mosques in times of peace
Two mosques in times of war
They build two mosques before they build two mosques
And then they build two more