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Old 27th May 2010, 06:34 PM   #1
catkas
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Limestone conductor of energy for residual hauntings

I am a new member and have been impressed with this forum. Thanks!!

I am a paranormal investigator, with an emphasis on hauntings. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around an age-old concept. It's been said numerous times about the abilities of limestone being a conductor of energies, whereby a manifesting ghost (if you will) may use these energies to form. I am aware that limestone is a salt formation and therefore is made up of negative ions, but does this simple fact allow it to do such an amazing feat? I have also heard that a residual haunting may occur near limestone (castles, caves) because apparently the rock has the ability to hold information and when it's released, a residual haunting may occur. I simply thought a rock is a rock is a rock! But, the paranormal community certainly holds this to be true. As a member of such interest, this is fascinating; however, I only want to redirect my information in the correct manner to others in our field and to clients. Based on what I've read in your forums, your group seems to handle such inquiries with science-based facts and theories. I'm very interested to see how you all feel about it.
Thanks-
catkas
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Old 27th May 2010, 06:56 PM   #2
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A crystalized salt form isn't 'made up of negative ions.' By definition, the positive and negative charges equal out as the salt crystalizes into solid form. A salt can only 'conduct' an electric current when in solution. The whole conceptual basis for this 'conductor of energies' is false.
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Old 27th May 2010, 07:01 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
I am a new member and have been impressed with this forum. Thanks!!

I am a paranormal investigator, with an emphasis on hauntings. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around an age-old concept. It's been said numerous times about the abilities of limestone being a conductor of energies, whereby a manifesting ghost (if you will) may use these energies to form. I am aware that limestone is a salt formation and therefore is made up of negative ions, but does this simple fact allow it to do such an amazing feat? I have also heard that a residual haunting may occur near limestone (castles, caves) because apparently the rock has the ability to hold information and when it's released, a residual haunting may occur. I simply thought a rock is a rock is a rock! But, the paranormal community certainly holds this to be true. As a member of such interest, this is fascinating; however, I only want to redirect my information in the correct manner to others in our field and to clients. Based on what I've read in your forums, your group seems to handle such inquiries with science-based facts and theories. I'm very interested to see how you all feel about it.
Thanks-
catkas
Welcome. Looking forward to the discussion. Lots of very knowledgeable folks here in many fields. As long as you want to learn, you will be rewarded.
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Old 27th May 2010, 07:06 PM   #4
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Seems fair!! I wonder where this all gained roots and then was believed by so many. Hmmmm...
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Old 27th May 2010, 07:12 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
I am a new member and have been impressed with this forum. Thanks!!

I am a paranormal investigator, with an emphasis on hauntings. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around an age-old concept. It's been said numerous times about the abilities of limestone being a conductor of energies, whereby a manifesting ghost (if you will) may use these energies to form. I am aware that limestone is a salt formation and therefore is made up of negative ions, but does this simple fact allow it to do such an amazing feat? I have also heard that a residual haunting may occur near limestone (castles, caves) because apparently the rock has the ability to hold information and when it's released, a residual haunting may occur. I simply thought a rock is a rock is a rock! But, the paranormal community certainly holds this to be true. As a member of such interest, this is fascinating; however, I only want to redirect my information in the correct manner to others in our field and to clients. Based on what I've read in your forums, your group seems to handle such inquiries with science-based facts and theories. I'm very interested to see how you all feel about it.
Thanks-
catkas
Can you explain what these "energies" might be? Electromagnetic, kinetic, thermal, potential? The more precise and concrete the better.
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Old 27th May 2010, 07:23 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
Seems fair!! I wonder where this all gained roots and then was believed by so many. Hmmmm...

That's pretty easy to answer:

1. Some people want to believe in ghosts
2. But they are torn by a need to scientifically explain the phenomenon
3. So they make stuff up.

I can do it, too. See, Captain Kirk's middle name is Tiberius. But in the episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before," his middle initial is given as R. on a tombstone. Thus:

1. I want Star Trek to be true
2. But the use of the middle initial R. in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" ruins the continuity.
3. So, I just make up a reason why it shouldn't. For example, Gary Mitchell, who created the tombstone, simply got Kirk's middle name wrong.

And now, I'm happy that Star Trek appears consistent and, as such, more likely to be real. I've satisfied the needs of my own ego. The fact that my invented explanation is utterly lacking in evidence is somebody else's problem.
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Old 27th May 2010, 07:32 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
And now, I'm happy that Star Trek appears consistent and, as such, more likely to be real. I've satisfied the needs of my own ego. The fact that my invented explanation is utterly lacking in evidence is somebody else's problem.
Was the tombstone carved out of Limestone
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Old 27th May 2010, 08:59 PM   #8
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Old 27th May 2010, 09:49 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
It's been said numerous times about the abilities of limestone being a conductor of energies...
Said by whom? A credible source or a teller of tales?
Quote:
...whereby a manifesting ghost (if you will) may use these energies to form.
Before going any further, you need to provide proof that your claims are more than just wild fantasies. Stuff made up won't get you very far in this forum.
Quote:
...I have also heard that a residual haunting may occur near limestone (castles, caves) because apparently the rock has the ability to hold information and when it's released, a residual haunting may occur.
The world is still waiting for a valid proof of a "residual" (or any other kind) of haunting. Got any?
Quote:
...But, the paranormal community certainly holds this to be true.
Which means that it is probably wrong. Since when does the paranormal community have any scientific validity?

Bring us a single, bullet-proof example of a "haunting" first, then we can talk about what it means. Until then, it's a waste of time for all of us.
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Old 28th May 2010, 03:52 AM   #10
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Rock does have the ability to hold information, just not the sort of information you are talking about.

Just ask any geologist, palaeontologist etc.
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Old 28th May 2010, 04:02 AM   #11
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That concept doesn't make any sense. Compared to water, metal and even clay, limestone is resistant. Conductivity/resistivity studies are done in karst (weathered limestone) areas all the time to determine where there are voids and water-filled caves.

I've never heard of the limestone related to hauntings but have frequently heard that Gettysburg is hosting hauntings due to the "granite" rock. The assumption is that granite is high in quartz and quartz "captures the human electrical energy" given off at death. Problem is, the rock that underlays the ridges of Gettysburg is geologically interesting but it is not granite. It's diabase and has very low silica. The sandstone around it, however, likely has more.

You should be having a difficult time with the rock tape theory. It doesn't make sense at all and has never been demonstrated. Those who utilize it seem to be making up a theory convenient to their situation and just sciencey enough to sound good to listeners.
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Old 28th May 2010, 04:07 AM   #12
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If anyone could ever demonstrate the existence of "hauntings" or "ghosts", then the limestone theory might have some merit. As it is, there's nothing to explain.
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Old 28th May 2010, 04:59 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
I am a new member and have been impressed with this forum. Thanks!!

I am a paranormal investigator, with an emphasis on hauntings. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around an age-old concept. It's been said numerous times about the abilities of limestone being a conductor of energies, whereby a manifesting ghost (if you will) may use these energies to form. I am aware that limestone is a salt formation and therefore is made up of negative ions, but does this simple fact allow it to do such an amazing feat? I have also heard that a residual haunting may occur near limestone (castles, caves) because apparently the rock has the ability to hold information and when it's released, a residual haunting may occur. I simply thought a rock is a rock is a rock! But, the paranormal community certainly holds this to be true. As a member of such interest, this is fascinating; however, I only want to redirect my information in the correct manner to others in our field and to clients. Based on what I've read in your forums, your group seems to handle such inquiries with science-based facts and theories. I'm very interested to see how you all feel about it.
Thanks-
catkas
You seem like a nice guy and an intelligent person also. Channel this intelligence into something useful. Go to college. Get a trade and quit wasting your time looking for something that isn't there. James randi has inspected many a haunted house or castle or whatever and unlike so called "ghost hunters" he has rebutted every single haunting. There are no ghosts. Do something else.
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Old 28th May 2010, 05:05 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
Seems fair!! I wonder where this all gained roots and then was believed by so many. Hmmmm...
Like another poster said people believe in ghosts because they want them to exist. I love ghosts and I used to be like you. Trouble is as time went by and no spook appeared to me except when my imagination got the better of me and I grew up and quit believeing in something that wasn't there. Floating matter on a video doesn't translate into a dead guy saying hello. You see a ghost its because you want to see one. Its happened to me before. Like I said. Channel your energys into the real world and do something useful and make money at it.
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Old 28th May 2010, 05:17 AM   #15
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Old 28th May 2010, 05:28 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by idoubtit View Post
That concept doesn't make any sense. Compared to water, metal and even clay, limestone is resistant. Conductivity/resistivity studies are done in karst (weathered limestone) areas all the time to determine where there are voids and water-filled caves.

I've never heard of the limestone related to hauntings but have frequently heard that Gettysburg is hosting hauntings due to the "granite" rock. The assumption is that granite is high in quartz and quartz "captures the human electrical energy" given off at death. Problem is, the rock that underlays the ridges of Gettysburg is geologically interesting but it is not granite. It's diabase and has very low silica. The sandstone around it, however, likely has more.

You should be having a difficult time with the rock tape theory. It doesn't make sense at all and has never been demonstrated. Those who utilize it seem to be making up a theory convenient to their situation and just sciencey enough to sound good to listeners.
if this were true Rockdale county Georgia should be teeming with spooks. I never saw a single one the whole 38 years I've been living here.
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Old 28th May 2010, 08:41 AM   #17
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The Stone Tape, 1972. Written by Nigel Kneale, of Quatermass fame.
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Old 28th May 2010, 09:10 AM   #18
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Old 28th May 2010, 09:41 AM   #19
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This is the same nonsense that the "ghost hunter" types have been promoting for some time.
We were involved in a similiar situation with the Stanley Hotel. The TV show ghost hunters was there and claimed this same thing. "the large deposits of limestone, magnetite, and quartz caused the hauntings"
We got involved and discovered that all of the "facts" about the supposed deposits were from hotel staff and the people at the counter at the museum.
After looking into the facts we eventually ended up working with several different branches of the US Government to conduct a complete soil survey using electromagnetic induction, ground penetrating radar and even scientists digging in the dirt. Guess what?.. After 2 days of research we discovered that there is nothing but bedrock and dirt under the hotel.
This just shows how the "theory" is accepted in the paranormal world without question.
We have even heard that during "ghost tours" of the hotel they still claim that there are these deposits.
But like the previous posts have stated, even if the limestone is capable of storing this "energy" we need to know what that "energy" is before we can make the claims.
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Old 28th May 2010, 11:15 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
I am a new member and have been impressed with this forum. Thanks!!

I am a paranormal investigator, with an emphasis on hauntings. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around an age-old concept. It's been said numerous times about the abilities of limestone being a conductor of energies, whereby a manifesting ghost (if you will) may use these energies to form. I am aware that limestone is a salt formation and therefore is made up of negative ions, but does this simple fact allow it to do such an amazing feat?
No.

As has been mentioned, limestone contains both positive (Ca++) and negative (CO3=)ions in balance, so the material has no net charge. (I indicate charge in the old way, to make it more forum-text friendly.)

Also, most other rocks/minerals also contain positive and negative ions. Dolomite is essentially the same as limestone, with a good deal of the calcium replaced with magnesium. Fluorite is calcium fluoride. Calcite is another form of calcium carbonate.

About the only common non-ionic minerals are quartz and alumina, which are covalent network structures. Others, such as feldspar and hornblende, are polysilicates- they've got vast polymeric silicate or aluminosilicate anions, balanced out with a plethora of metal cations.

So how would limestone be unique in this?

Again, what kind of energy is supposed to be contained in this? Presumably, it's not electromagnetic or thermal, but spiritual or ethereal (so that ghosts can use it). But how can this energy be detected? Measured? Tested for? Even if one assumes the existence of ghosts, one can hardly build a large number of hospitals out of different stone blocks, and wait a hundred years to see which ones become haunted.

The paranormal community may hold this to be true, but unless they can come up with a way to test it, there is no purpose in trying to figure out how it might work. Show it works, then figure out why.

I suppose you could find a place that's supposed to be haunted, put a big piece of limestone there and see if anything happens. Repeat with similarly-sized blocks of marble, granite, quartz, salt, wood, and glass.
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Old 28th May 2010, 11:18 AM   #21
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If limestone holds ghosts, then maybe it's the ghosts of all the little mollusks whose shells turned into the stone?
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Old 28th May 2010, 11:36 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
Stop it, stop it, stop it!!!!
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Old 28th May 2010, 05:57 PM   #23
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What happens if the limestone is quarried and used in a building some distance away?
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Old 28th May 2010, 06:45 PM   #24
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Wow, so now the "ghost hunters" are suddenly experts in geology ("negative ion energy in limestone" -wtf) as well as physics (EMF & temperature fluctations - spooky!). Is there anything of which they don't have a vast, authoritative knowledge?

Why bother learning anything when you can just make crap up?
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Old 28th May 2010, 07:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
... I am a paranormal investigator, with an emphasis on hauntings. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around an age-old concept. It's been said numerous times about the abilities of limestone being a conductor of energies, whereby a manifesting ghost (if you will) may use these energies to form. I am aware that limestone is a salt formation and therefore is made up of negative ions, but does this simple fact allow it to do such an amazing feat? I have also heard that a residual haunting may occur near limestone (castles, caves) because apparently the rock has the ability to hold information and when it's released, a residual haunting may occur. I simply thought a rock is a rock is a rock! But, the paranormal community certainly holds this to be true. As a member of such interest, this is fascinating; however, I only want to redirect my information in the correct manner to others in our field and to clients. Based on what I've read in your forums, your group seems to handle such inquiries with science-based facts and theories. I'm very interested to see how you all feel about it.
.
Oh, for the love of Darwin; not another one!

Limestone is not a conductor, except when wet. Limestone is Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3). It forms a weak acid when dissolved with water. Yes, a rock is a rock is a rock - at least you have that part right.

There are no such things as ghosts, and no such things as ghostly haunts. If you truly want to redirect your infomation in the correct manner, then I suggest that you obtain a real education in real science.
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Old 28th May 2010, 07:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
If limestone holds ghosts, then maybe it's the ghosts of all the little mollusks whose shells turned into the stone?
Ahhh, baloney.
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Old 28th May 2010, 07:50 PM   #27
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:20 PM   #28
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I am saddened by some of the replies to this. I may be a ghost investigator but no where did I state that I haven't gone to college, which I have. Nor did I ever state I made no income. This is a fascinating hobby, it does not pay my bills. My day job does just that and I'm far from hurting in the financial realm.
This post pertained to the idea of limestone and quartz, etc. having a reputation in the paranormal investigating world as being a conductor for ghosts to use to manifest. The reason I came on here to ask was because I didn't think it sounded right to me, either. I'm on your side. I may not know my geology or science but I did mention that's why I questioned this, I came to the proper forum to ask. I did not come here to be ridiculed and told to get a degree or make money. I have both and I am offended that the highly intelligent of this forum have to be egotistical and rude. I'm highly intelligent, respectful and successful in my field (my day job) and have no reason to be rude.
To those of you who were polite, I honestly thank you. You were very helpful and uncritical to my wonderings. I have heard it all too much in books and on the recent ghost tv programs that this (limestone conductivity) can happen. It's like someone made it up once and then the whole paranormal community hopped on it, believed it, published it, so it's true. I don't work that way, that's why I asked. But, I do think I will not post here again. The whole idea slid right past 50% of these repliers as an edge to prove dominance. In what? Who knows? Makes some of you feel happy you can degrade a stranger coming to you for help? How defensive this world can be and so sad. At least ghosts don't back talk the living. I'd rather hang out with some of them than some of you. And those of you who responded in a nice, scientific manner, thank you! It was appreciated and I feel I shan't use this limestone bologna as a basis for evidence or a basis for a manifesting theory.
-catkas
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:24 PM   #29
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BTW, I'm not making anything up. I said I heard this and I had a hard time grasping this theory. Of course I'm not a geologist, I stated I came here because I didn't know. If some of you rude folks learn how to read, you'd have read my post properly. Get a grip. And if this is deleted, I pity the people who can't bear to read a post and handle it with maturity and dignity.
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:25 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by MattusMaximus View Post
Wow, so now the "ghost hunters" are suddenly experts in geology ("negative ion energy in limestone" -wtf) as well as physics (EMF & temperature fluctations - spooky!). Is there anything of which they don't have a vast, authoritative knowledge?
The laws governing English grammar and punctuation. I base this observation on my reading of the newest edition of TAPS ParaMagazine. In the first three pages, there were three its/it's errors by three different authors, and that was just the beginning of the apostrophe abuse.


ETA: To be clear, I was not directing this comment at you, catkas, but toward the high-profile, "expert" ghost hunters who repeat nonsensical "theories" and can't even complete a coherent sentence in a publication.

Last edited by Lucian; 28th May 2010 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:25 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
No.

As has been mentioned, limestone contains both positive (Ca++) and negative (CO3=)ions in balance, so the material has no net charge. (I indicate charge in the old way, to make it more forum-text friendly.)

Also, most other rocks/minerals also contain positive and negative ions. Dolomite is essentially the same as limestone, with a good deal of the calcium replaced with magnesium. Fluorite is calcium fluoride. Calcite is another form of calcium carbonate.

About the only common non-ionic minerals are quartz and alumina, which are covalent network structures. Others, such as feldspar and hornblende, are polysilicates- they've got vast polymeric silicate or aluminosilicate anions, balanced out with a plethora of metal cations.

So how would limestone be unique in this?

Again, what kind of energy is supposed to be contained in this? Presumably, it's not electromagnetic or thermal, but spiritual or ethereal (so that ghosts can use it). But how can this energy be detected? Measured? Tested for? Even if one assumes the existence of ghosts, one can hardly build a large number of hospitals out of different stone blocks, and wait a hundred years to see which ones become haunted.

The paranormal community may hold this to be true, but unless they can come up with a way to test it, there is no purpose in trying to figure out how it might work. Show it works, then figure out why.

I suppose you could find a place that's supposed to be haunted, put a big piece of limestone there and see if anything happens. Repeat with similarly-sized blocks of marble, granite, quartz, salt, wood, and glass.
Wonderful idea, thanks!
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:26 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
The laws governing English grammar and punctuation. I base this observation on my reading of the newest edition of TAPS ParaMagazine. In the first three pages, there were three its/it's errors by three different authors, and that was just the beginning of the apostrophe abuse.
That's called bad editors.
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:28 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by bryan View Post
This is the same nonsense that the "ghost hunter" types have been promoting for some time.
We were involved in a similiar situation with the Stanley Hotel. The TV show ghost hunters was there and claimed this same thing. "the large deposits of limestone, magnetite, and quartz caused the hauntings"
We got involved and discovered that all of the "facts" about the supposed deposits were from hotel staff and the people at the counter at the museum.
After looking into the facts we eventually ended up working with several different branches of the US Government to conduct a complete soil survey using electromagnetic induction, ground penetrating radar and even scientists digging in the dirt. Guess what?.. After 2 days of research we discovered that there is nothing but bedrock and dirt under the hotel.
This just shows how the "theory" is accepted in the paranormal world without question.
We have even heard that during "ghost tours" of the hotel they still claim that there are these deposits.
But like the previous posts have stated, even if the limestone is capable of storing this "energy" we need to know what that "energy" is before we can make the claims.
That's cool that you headed over to the Stanley and did the experiments! This holds a true basis to debunk these views, huh? Cool!
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Like another poster said people believe in ghosts because they want them to exist. I love ghosts and I used to be like you. Trouble is as time went by and no spook appeared to me except when my imagination got the better of me and I grew up and quit believeing in something that wasn't there. Floating matter on a video doesn't translate into a dead guy saying hello. You see a ghost its because you want to see one. Its happened to me before. Like I said. Channel your energys into the real world and do something useful and make money at it.
I do things useful and I do make money at it, but thanks for trying.
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:31 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by idoubtit View Post
That concept doesn't make any sense. Compared to water, metal and even clay, limestone is resistant. Conductivity/resistivity studies are done in karst (weathered limestone) areas all the time to determine where there are voids and water-filled caves.

I've never heard of the limestone related to hauntings but have frequently heard that Gettysburg is hosting hauntings due to the "granite" rock. The assumption is that granite is high in quartz and quartz "captures the human electrical energy" given off at death. Problem is, the rock that underlays the ridges of Gettysburg is geologically interesting but it is not granite. It's diabase and has very low silica. The sandstone around it, however, likely has more.

You should be having a difficult time with the rock tape theory. It doesn't make sense at all and has never been demonstrated. Those who utilize it seem to be making up a theory convenient to their situation and just sciencey enough to sound good to listeners.
Could be, but I think this was thought of long ago, and just believed thru time. Thanks!
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:33 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Can you explain what these "energies" might be? Electromagnetic, kinetic, thermal, potential? The more precise and concrete the better.
I haven't a clue! That's one of the reasons I came to the forum, I didn't know. Sorry I can't be more specific, it's just something that's been heard for so long, eventually it's valid. But, it never sounded right to me.
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Old 28th May 2010, 10:55 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Lucian View Post
The laws governing English grammar and punctuation. I base this observation on my reading of the newest edition of TAPS ParaMagazine. In the first three pages, there were three its/it's errors by three different authors, and that was just the beginning of the apostrophe abuse.


ETA: To be clear, I was not directing this comment at you, catkas, but toward the high-profile, "expert" ghost hunters who repeat nonsensical "theories" and can't even complete a coherent sentence in a publication.
Understood, thanks! I can see your point which is why all these paranormal ideas and theories that are out there seem unsubstantiated. I do believe in the existence of ghosts, but I want to scream... "Give me a good basis to start, not hog wash that's been passed thru time"! And then they misspell!
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Old 28th May 2010, 11:09 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
Limestone is not a conductor, except when wet. Limestone is Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3). It forms a weak acid when dissolved with water.
No, actually, wrong on nearly all counts. Limestone is not much of a conductor when wet- it is practically insoluble, and doesn't provide enough ions to solution to give any reasonable conductivity. It is calcium carbonate (no capitalization, since it's not a proper noun). If you manage to get any to dissolve, it will form a basic solution. It does dissolve in acidic solution, and neutralizes the acid.
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Old 29th May 2010, 01:53 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
This post pertained to the idea of limestone and quartz, etc. having a reputation in the paranormal investigating world as being a conductor for ghosts to use to manifest.
The problem here is that you are making the a priori assumption that ghosts actually exist. Wouldn't you be better off determining whether this is a valid assumption before trying to think about the details of how and when they are able to "manifest"?

I'm not saying this to be rude or impolite, and I apologise if you felt like I was. There's just no sense in debating the colour of a unicorn.
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Old 29th May 2010, 02:21 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by catkas View Post
I have also heard that a residual haunting may occur near limestone (castles, caves) because apparently the rock has the ability to hold information...

You might want to try quartz rather than limestone, bacause you can then claim that quartz is made out of silicon* just like computer chips and can therefore store information.

It still won't be correct, but it has more woo potential because it sounds a bit as if it might be to people who don't know the difference between silica and silicon. See, for example, the "silica hypothesis" in homoeopathy.










* No it isn't.
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