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Tags FOTL , Freeman on the Land , Rob Menard

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Old 20th December 2011, 01:30 PM   #4361
FreemanMenard
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Originally Posted by cocana View Post
no we haven't. My goodness, is that the best that you can muster rob?

Jb has given you a pointer on what we have demanded proof of, but that's only part of it. I tell you what i'll do since your memory has got a bit foggy, i'll copy and paste the post that you have consistently avoided answering. Given that you are (apparently) in the mood to provide proof, maybe this time you'll give us what we're asking for. Here goes and i'll embolden the really important bit...

got the evidence that you are immune from all statutory law, except those laws that you agree with? A verifiable court order or letter from the canadian government should do the trick.

no? Thought not


been telling people that this is what you have achieved? Yes
been receiving money on the back of it? Yes
been giving other bogus 'legal' advice and receiving money from that? Yes

once again, evidence please. Alternatively you are welcome to continue digging your own hole.
^spamming the forum^
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:31 PM   #4362
FreemanMenard
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Originally Posted by cocana View Post
no we haven't. My goodness, is that the best that you can muster rob?

Jb has given you a pointer on what we have demanded proof of, but that's only part of it. I tell you what i'll do since your memory has got a bit foggy, i'll copy and paste the post that you have consistently avoided answering. Given that you are (apparently) in the mood to provide proof, maybe this time you'll give us what we're asking for. Here goes and i'll embolden the really important bit...

got the evidence that you are immune from all statutory law, except those laws that you agree with? A verifiable court order or letter from the canadian government should do the trick.

no? Thought not


been telling people that this is what you have achieved? Yes
been receiving money on the back of it? Yes
been giving other bogus 'legal' advice and receiving money from that? Yes

once again, evidence please. Alternatively you are welcome to continue digging your own hole.
^spamming the forum^
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:36 PM   #4363
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Robert, this thread is provided for you to provide evidence, repeated requests for that evidence cannot be considered as SPAM.

Either produce the goods or go away.
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:38 PM   #4364
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Hey mods, would you please count HOW MANY TIME this guy has claimed (incorrectly) that these are my claims, or that I make money off the back of what he claims are my claims, and then compare them to your own Forum Spamming rules?
Lance Thatcher
I have evidence from your own fingers that you took money from him for advice.
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:39 PM   #4365
FreemanMenard
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Just to set your mind at ease before you get blasted for CONSTANTLY SPAMMING THE FORUM.
The evidence is your inability to govern me directly without my consent, and the logical conclusion that you can't hire someone to do something you cannot do yourself.

got the evidence that you can directly govern me without my consent? A verifiable court order or letter from the canadian government should do the trick.

no? Thought not


been telling people that you can, but through a representative? Yes
been supporting a system with this claim? Yes
been ignoring reality in favour of your long defended paradigm? Yes

once again, evidence please. Alternatively you are welcome to continue digging your own hole.

Evidecen that you personally can govern me without my consent, or hire someone else to do so.

If you can't bring that, you lose and lost long ago, but keep repeating the same thing to avoid the truth.

YOU CAN"T DO IT SO NEITHER CAN YOUR AGENTS OR REPS.

So simple... why do you miss it when it is tailor made for someone as simple as you?

Ball is in your court. Prove you can govern me without my consent, or empower your agents to do so, OR I HAVE NOTHING TO PROVE, AS YOUR INABILITY IS THE PROOF.
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:43 PM   #4366
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Rob a simple question:
Are you going to provide proof that you are immune to statute law?
Yes or No?
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:44 PM   #4367
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Rob, there is no one here who claims to be able to govern you without your consent, thats your strawman argument.
However the Canadian government made up of elected officials have been given permission to govern you without your consent by the people of Canada and by your actions of obeying the law you prove that is true.
If you thought they couldn't then you would be travelling in an unlicensed uninsured motorised conveyance.


By the way didn't you govern me without my consent when you successfully stopped me using your WFS logo?
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:48 PM   #4368
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post

Evidecen that you personally can govern me without my consent, or hire someone else to do so.
That's easy.
Your fellow Canadians have elected a government and if you step out of line they will come down on you just like they do to all of those Canadian freemen we see losing in court every time. Those Canadian FOTL get governed straight into jail.
ETA if your reply is "They're not my fellow Canadians" that is even further proof that the FOTL are being governed without their consent.

Last edited by Stacey Grove; 20th December 2011 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:51 PM   #4369
FreemanMenard
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By your silence I take we are now in agreement.
No one here can govern me without my consent.
Right?
No one here may empower another as their agent or representative to do that which they cannot do themselves.
Right?

Or is there someone here who wants to claim I personally have the right to govern THEM without their consent?

To argue AGAINST my position is to argue FOR me being able to govern YOU personally or by representation without YOUR consent.

Who here wishes to argue THAT?
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:53 PM   #4370
FreemanMenard
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Originally Posted by Stacey Grove View Post
That's easy.
Your fellow Canadians have elected a government and if you step out of line they will come down on you just like they do to all of those Canadian freemen we see losing in court every time. Those Canadian FOTL get governed straight into jail.
ETA if your reply is "They're not my fellow Canadians" that is even further proof that the FOTL are being governed without their consent.

My fellow Canadians cannot hire or elect anyone to do that which they cannot do themselves.

And the ones who avoid court entirely and which you refuse to even examine because there is no 'court record'?

So you are arguing for my ability to govern YOU without YOUR consent. Right?
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:55 PM   #4371
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Quote:
By your silence I take we are now in agreement.
No one here can govern me without my consent.
Right?
Right
Quote:
No one here may empower another as their agent or representative to do that which they cannot do themselves.
Right?
Right, they can run for office in exactly the same way, and once in that office they can govern you without your consent.
Quote:
Or is there someone here who wants to claim I personally have the right to govern THEM without their consent?
You stopped me using tour logo, did you do it unlawfully?
Quote:
To argue AGAINST my position is to argue FOR me being able to govern YOU personally or by representation without YOUR consent.
Correct Rob, you, through the medium of another governed me without my consent.
Quote:
Who here wishes to argue THAT?
No one Rob, you are correct, I can also govern you without your consent through the courts if you impeded on me either civilly or criminally as well.

Last edited by jargon buster; 20th December 2011 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 20th December 2011, 01:56 PM   #4372
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post
By your silence I take we are now in agreement.
No
Quote:
No one here can govern me without my consent.
Right?
Right.
Quote:
No one here may empower another as their agent or representative to do that which they cannot do themselves.
Right?
Wrong.
Quote:
Or is there someone here who wants to claim I personally have the right to govern THEM without their consent?
No, not you personally but you do have the right to vote in a government that will govern your neighbour without his consent.

Quote:
To argue AGAINST my position is to argue FOR me being able to govern YOU personally or by representation without YOUR consent.
Your representative, not you personally, can govern Canadians without their consent. You have to get out there and vote.

Quote:
Who here wishes to argue THAT?
I just did.

Last edited by Stacey Grove; 20th December 2011 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:02 PM   #4373
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So, Rob what about this proof that you are immune to statute law?
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:05 PM   #4374
FreemanMenard
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So stacey, though I may not sell your house to my friend without your consent, if I hire someone else to do so, THEY can sell your house to my friend without your consent?

Is that your claim?

Can you explain HOW you can hire someone to do that which you do not have the power to do yourself?

Remember the maxims of law: Power derived is never greater than the source it was derived from.
AND
An agent can only exercise the power given them by the principal.
AND
That which I cannot do directly I cannot do by agent, proxy or representative.

Explain HOW you can empower someone to do something, if you do not even have the right to do it yourself.

Use the example of You being a house owner, and me wanting to sell your house without your consent, but not being able to because it is not my house, yet I can still do so according to you, if I hire an agent to do it for me.

Please explain HOW.
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:07 PM   #4375
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I notice you seem to be avoiding me again Rob, never mind everyone else can read them
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:07 PM   #4376
FreemanMenard
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Originally Posted by Stacey Grove View Post
So, Rob what about this proof that you are immune to statute law?
I am waiting for your proof that you can govern me without my consent, either directly or by representative.

If you can't provide that, why do I have to prove anything?

Balls in your court.


Has been FOREVER...
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:09 PM   #4377
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Quote:
I am waiting for your proof that you can govern me without my consent, either directly or by representative.

If you can't provide that, why do I have to prove anything?

Balls in your court.


Has been FOREVER...
You were barred from giving legal advice in court, the document/judgement is in this thread.
You can cry all you want about it not being you, you have however not set foot in a court as an advisor since, maybe its just a coincidence.
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:12 PM   #4378
FreemanMenard
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Hey guys don't stress yourselves out.

I will check back in a week and see if ANYONE here has figured out how they can hire someone to do that which they cannot do directly, or more accurately, how I can hire someone to do what I cannot do directly.

In this case sell your property without your consent.

If you can't explain that, then we must be in agreement:
I cannot hire a representative to do something if I do not have the right to do it myself directly.

Simples right?
Get to it..

See you after Christmas...
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:14 PM   #4379
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If you can't provide that, why do I have to prove anything?
Because you are the one persisting in making ludicrous claims and selling fake legal advice based on those claims.

Because you are the one who is either too blind or too stubborn to admit to falling for a decades old scam that only the most gullible of gullible would fall for.

Because you are the one who, after all these years, will not and can not provide proof of the idiotic claim that you are immune to statute law when it suits you.
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:15 PM   #4380
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Quote:
I will check back in a week and see if ANYONE here has figured out how they can hire someone to do that which they cannot do directly, or more accurately, how I can hire someone to do what I cannot do directly.
I can't repair a car but I can hire someone to do it, whats your point?
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:17 PM   #4381
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post
So stacey, though I may not sell your house to my friend without your consent, if I hire someone else to do so, THEY can sell your house to my friend without your consent?

Is that your claim?
No I never said that.
However if parliament were to pass a law that allowed you to do so, then yes you could.

Quote:
Can you explain HOW you can hire someone to do that which you do not have the power to do yourself?

Remember the maxims of law: Power derived is never greater than the source it was derived from.
AND
An agent can only exercise the power given them by the principal.
AND
That which I cannot do directly I cannot do by agent, proxy or representative.

Explain HOW you can empower someone to do something, if you do not even have the right to do it yourself.
Rob you appear to be denying that there is a Canadian government that is governing your arse each and every day of your life. But there is one and they do. To argue otherwise is stupid.

Last edited by Stacey Grove; 20th December 2011 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:18 PM   #4382
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Rob will you please provide proof that you are immune to statute law?
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:20 PM   #4383
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post
My fellow Canadians cannot hire or elect anyone to do that which they cannot do themselves.

<snip>

Fallacy of compositionWP.

Quote:
The fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole (or even of every proper part). . . .

[Example]:

1.Human cells are invisible to the naked eye.
2.Humans are made up of human cells.
3.Therefore, humans are invisible to the naked eye. [note omitted]
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Last edited by SpitfireIX; 20th December 2011 at 02:28 PM. Reason: <snipped> non-relevant portion of quotation
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:22 PM   #4384
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Remember the maxims of law: Power derived is never greater than the source it was derived from.
AND
An agent can only exercise the power given them by the principal.
AND
That which I cannot do directly I cannot do by agent, proxy or representative.
Did you make those up yourself?
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:26 PM   #4385
FreemanMenard
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Originally Posted by Stacey Grove View Post
Rob will you please provide proof that you are immune to statute law?
Care to define a statute?

Is it: a legislated rule of a society given the force of law?

Then, are you willing to define a society?

Is it: A number of people, joined by MUTUAL CONSENT to deliberate determine and act for a common goal?

Then, can you show me ONE society, where consent is not required to be a member thereof?

If not, have a merry christmas.

Also, if not, consider that to be the proof you seek.

Peace eh?
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:26 PM   #4386
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post

Can you explain HOW you can hire someone to do that which you do not have the power to do yourself?

.
I'm not sure how you got from "empower" to "hire" but, If a court finds you incompetent a family member or guardian can be named to make decisions for you.
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:29 PM   #4387
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post

Then, are you willing to define a society?

Is it: A number of people, joined by MUTUAL CONSENT to deliberate determine and act for a common goal?
No, that would be a Society such as the RSPCA or the RSPB
I suggest you look to Black's as that is the FOTL's favourite.
Read the bit you chopped off from your definition.
Quote:
Then, can you show me ONE society, where consent is not required to be a member thereof?
Check out Black's it's all there.
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:31 PM   #4388
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Fallacy of compositionWP.
With cells, there comes a time where the group itself is visible.

With human beings and their rights, is there a time where although not a single one of them have a right, enough of them makes it so?

Imagine a woman and a group of men.
How many men are needed before they can impose themselves on the one woman without consent and it is no longer rape cause there are enough of them?

What is the number?
Or is there one?
Maybe it is always rape regardless of how many partake...

So tell us, according to the law, how many men does it take before them imposing their will on a woman is no longer an act of rape.

Tell us the number, or agree there is not one.
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:31 PM   #4389
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Rob wrote:

Quote:
That which I cannot do directly I cannot do by agent, proxy or representative.
So why do you pay a notary?
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:35 PM   #4390
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Quote:
With cells, there comes a time where the group itself is visible.

With human beings and their rights, is there a time where although not a single one of them have a right, enough of them makes it so?

Imagine a woman and a group of men.
How many men are needed before they can impose themselves on the one woman without consent and it is no longer rape cause there are enough of them?

What is the number?
Or is there one?
Maybe it is always rape regardless of how many partake...

So tell us, according to the law, how many men does it take before them imposing their will on a woman is no longer an act of rape.

Edit, can you please stop it with the rape references, they are not necessary to make a point.

Tell us the number, or agree there is not one.
You are debunking yourself again Rob, you give a perfect example of why your individual consent is irrelevant, but I bet you can't see it.

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Old 20th December 2011, 02:41 PM   #4391
D'rok
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post
got the evidence that you can directly govern me without my consent? A verifiable court order or letter from the canadian government should do the trick.
No prob. Got a court order right here.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Menard.pdf (59.1 KB, 39 views)
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:47 PM   #4392
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post
Care to define a statute?

Is it: a legislated rule of a society given the force of law?
No. You yourself provided us with a link to a definition many pages back. Have you forgotten already? Here it is:

An act of a legislature that declares, proscribes, or commands something; a specific law, expressed in writing.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/statute

Now provide evidence that you can opt out of the laws of Canada. Note: we are not asking for you to re-define words. We are asking you to demonstrate the truth of your claims by providing evidence.

Go.
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Old 20th December 2011, 02:53 PM   #4393
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post
So stacey, though I may not sell your house to my friend without your consent, if I hire someone else to do so, THEY can sell your house to my friend without your consent?

Is that your claim?

Can you explain HOW you can hire someone to do that which you do not have the power to do yourself?
I don't understand the distinction you are drawing here. You can't hire someone to do something illegal, obviously. I can't hire someone to sell a house that I don't own for the same reason that I can't hire someone to kill another person - it's illegal. Electing a representative to pass laws, however, is not a crime (nor is it a "hiring," for that matter). So, yes, I can't hire someone to sell your house without your consent, but I can vote for someone who may in the future govern you without your consent.

Quote:
Remember the maxims of law: Power derived is never greater than the source it was derived from.
Most elected officials need to be voted in by either a majority or a plurality of voters, so the "source" is that majority or plurality, not each individual voter.

Quote:
AND
An agent can only exercise the power given them by the principal.
As far as I know, an elected official is not considered an "agent." That just makes sense - otherwise they could never pass laws with which other people disagree.

Quote:
AND
That which I cannot do directly I cannot do by agent, proxy or representative.
This appears to be your own legal maxim, as obviously there are situations where an agents or representatives can do what you cannot. Elected officials spring to mind, as they can enact binding legislation whereas you (the citizens) cannot. As for agency agreements, things like durable powers of attorney may last through the incapacity of the agent and entitle the holder to do what the agent obviously can't (because he or she is incapacitated).

Quote:
Explain HOW you can empower someone to do something, if you do not even have the right to do it yourself.

Use the example of You being a house owner, and me wanting to sell your house without your consent, but not being able to because it is not my house, yet I can still do so according to you, if I hire an agent to do it for me.

Please explain HOW.
Again, these are really two different scenarios. You cannot hire someone to do something that is illegal, such as selling someone's house they do not have title to. You can, however, elect a representative to do something you cannot, and have been able to do so in the United States for over 200 years.
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Old 20th December 2011, 03:06 PM   #4394
D'rok
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post
So stacey, though I may not sell your house to my friend without your consent, if I hire someone else to do so, THEY can sell your house to my friend without your consent?

Is that your claim?

Can you explain HOW you can hire someone to do that which you do not have the power to do yourself?

Remember the maxims of law: Power derived is never greater than the source it was derived from.
AND
An agent can only exercise the power given them by the principal.
AND
That which I cannot do directly I cannot do by agent, proxy or representative.

Explain HOW you can empower someone to do something, if you do not even have the right to do it yourself.

Use the example of You being a house owner, and me wanting to sell your house without your consent, but not being able to because it is not my house, yet I can still do so according to you, if I hire an agent to do it for me.

Please explain HOW.
Sure. Through the magic of common law. Check it out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession

Under the right circumstances, I can squat on your land, obtain title, and then hire a real estate agent to sell it. All without your consent.

Now, you've heard these answers many, many times. We've been patient and given them to you again. Your turn.

Provide evidence that you can opt out of the laws of Canada. Alternatively, provide evidence for any of your ridiculous FOTL claims.
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Last edited by D'rok; 20th December 2011 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 20th December 2011, 03:12 PM   #4395
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Quote:
Use the example of You being a house owner, and me wanting to sell your house without your consent, but not being able to because it is not my house, yet I can still do so according to you, if I hire an agent to do it for me.
Uh, that's not how the government works Rob. It doesn't reduce to two people, because if it was just two people, there probably wouldn't be any need for government. However, when there are thousands or even millions of people, you can't all get together and work everything out by consensus. In fact, in the olden days, he who had the army and muscle got to make all the rules. They were usually called kings. And they had few checks on their power. Gradually over the centuries kings became less important and legislatures became more. Some places even killed their king or rebelled against them. Some places turned into very nasty places like the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. Other places like Canada and the United States empowered the citizens to run the show through their representatives. We (collectively) the people of such countries empower our representatives to work out rules so we can function as a society. We won't all agree how to best run a country. A rule that everyone has to agree or else doesn't make for effective governance, not least because there bad people out there. Should a murderer be allowed to say "well I don't consent to murder being a crime?"
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Old 20th December 2011, 03:12 PM   #4396
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post
I will check back in a week and see if ANYONE here has figured out how they can hire someone to do that which they cannot do directly, or more accurately, how I can hire someone to do what I cannot do directly.

In this case sell your property without your consent.

If you can't explain that, then we must be in agreement:
I cannot hire a representative to do something if I do not have the right to do it myself directly.

Rob, the government of Canada, or of a province of Canada, is not hired by individual Canadians. It is empowered by the Constitution of Canada to pass legislation.
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Old 20th December 2011, 03:19 PM   #4397
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Originally Posted by Stacey Grove View Post
No, that would be a Society such as the RSPCA or the RSPB
I suggest you look to Black's as that is the FOTL's favourite.
Read the bit you chopped off from your definition.

Check out Black's it's all there.

Rob seems to be running into the same problem as when he tried to base an argument on using the wrong definition of the word "security" in the expression "security of the person".
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Old 20th December 2011, 03:28 PM   #4398
FreemanMenard
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Originally Posted by Stacey Grove View Post
Rob wrote:


So why do you pay a notary?
I can do what the notary does.

But they can do something I cannot, and that is act as impartial witness to process.

That is why we use notaries.
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Old 20th December 2011, 03:30 PM   #4399
Stacey Grove
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Originally Posted by FreemanMenard View Post
I can do what the notary does.

But they can do something I cannot, and that is act as impartial witness to process.

That is why we use notaries.
But if they are only an impartial witness why don't you use somebody plucked off the street?
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Old 20th December 2011, 03:34 PM   #4400
FreemanMenard
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Rob, the government of Canada, or of a province of Canada, is not hired by individual Canadians. It is empowered by the Constitution of Canada to pass legislation.
You do realize these things you point to, are in fact legal fictions, and do not exist, right?

You may as well point to Santa Claus, and then a group of people who point to Santa Claus, to justify their unlawful actions.

What you point to exist only in imagination and through mutual consent.

Can either of them testify in a court of law without use of an agent?

No? Thought not...

But you like so many others are addicted and attached to these fictions, you will not even admit they are not real...

You will fight someone who is real instead....
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