[Merged] Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports - Page 9

quixotecoyote · 31st May 2010, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

keep applauding them and they will keep *********** things up for your amusement. Its a win-win situation

Since by "*********** things up" you are referring to the incident of stopping ships from violating blockades on genocidal governments and only using deadly force to respond to deadly threats, I think I will keep applauding, thank you very much.

bit_pattern · 31st May 2010, 09:59 PM

LMAO at genocidal

And you have the gumption o accuse others of being Orwellian with their language.

quixotecoyote · 31st May 2010, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

LMAO at genocidal

And you have the gumption o accuse others of being Orwellian with their language.

Don't recall accusing anyone in this thread of being Orwellian, only dishonest and inaccurate.

Hasn't been updated in awhile, but it's easy to find Palestinian leaders calling for genocide. Top google result for "palestinian anti-semitic genocidal"

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html

Quote:

Last week PMW released the text of this call for the killing of all Americans and Jews, preached by the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, Dr. Ahmad Bahar on Palestinian television. Israel is referred to as a "cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation," and the US is said to be "on its way to disappear." Due to its importance PMW is now releasing the subtitled video.

Noztradamus · 31st May 2010, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeptic
If, in the first world war, a flotilla of ships sailed from Turkey to Germany claiming they are bringing "humanitarian aid" to Germany in violation of the British navy's blockade, you can bet your behind the navy would have sunk them.

Err britian was at war with turkey. Britian wouldn't care where such ships were sailing to. Now Sweden to germany is where things got complicated.

Picky, picky.

Then what would the Union have done if someone had attempted to break the blockade of Confederate ports during the USAn Civil War?

bit_pattern · 31st May 2010, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by quixotecoyote

Don't recall accusing anyone in this thread of being Orwellian, only dishonest and inaccurate.

Hasn't been updated in awhile, but it's easy to find Palestinian leaders calling for genocide. Top google result for "palestinian anti-semitic genocidal"

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html

Yes, because a tinpot militia has the ability to wipe out a race defended by one of the worlds most efficient and well equipped nuclear armed forces

quixotecoyote · 31st May 2010, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Yes, because a tinpot militia has the ability to wipe out a race defended by one of the worlds most efficient and well equipped nuclear armed forces

Well that's a silly idea. I'm glad I never said anything like it.

lionking · 31st May 2010, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Yes, because a tinpot militia has the ability to wipe out a race defended by one of the worlds most efficient and well equipped nuclear armed forces

Do you still deny the intent?

DC · 31st May 2010, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Since Hamas was elected democratically, doesn't that make Gazans collectively responsible by definition, and--unlike other communities during wartime--totally deserving of collective punishment?

The way I see it, collective punishment of the Gazan people is only a problem if democracy itself is a problem, or if Gazans did not actually implement a democratic election.

So which is it? Is Hamas a corrupt and criminal organization, that stole the election in Gaza? Or is democracy a bankrupt institution that does not actually represent the will of the people? Or did Gazans intentionally choose to be collectively responsible for electing Hamas?

Hamas won with 100% of the votes in an election where 100% of the voters voted?

DC · 31st May 2010, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

I'm surprised at how quickly protesters took to the streets around the world, within hours of the raid.

yeah they all knew beforehand , they conspired against Israel

DC · 31st May 2010, 10:46 PM

is Hamas solely a terrorist organisation? Or does it also maintain extensive social services network that the PA Authority failed to keep up?

DC · 31st May 2010, 10:52 PM

even if Hamas would have won the election with 100%, there were still 25% of the voters that did not vote, what about them? is it ok to punish them?

DC · 31st May 2010, 10:55 PM

and Hamas had 44.45 % of the votes and voters turnout was 74.6%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electio...onal_Authority

lionking · 31st May 2010, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by DC

and Hamas had 44.45 % of the votes and voters turnout was 74.6%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electio...onal_Authority

So what are you saying? Only 44.45% should be subject to sanction? Ridiculous.

DC · 31st May 2010, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

So what are you saying? Only 44.45% should be subject to sanction? Ridiculous.

no some posters seem to think its OK all Palestinians suffer because a minority of the Palestinians voted for Hamas. that is what i call Ridiculous.

its exactly what a radical Palestinian once said in an Interview when talking about 9/11, he said its OK to punish civilians in a democracy as they are directly responsible for the government and its actions.

and here i read the same radical BS from the other side.

DC · 31st May 2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

The small clinic on the edge of one of the Gaza Strip's biggest refugee camps is one of hundreds of medical centers, food banks, summer camps and schools across the West Bank and Gaza operated by Islamic charities, many of them linked to the Islamic Resistance Movement, better known by its Arabic acronym Hamas.

The militant group's recent victory in parliamentary elections is testimony in part to its long track record on the streets. Its services are often perceived as being of higher quality and less tainted by corruption than the cumbersome and often ineffective social network operated by the Palestinian Authority controlled until now by Fatah.

The work Hamas does at home is an often-overlooked key to the domestic popularity of an organization most known elsewhere for killing. The United States has declared Hamas a terrorist organization, and U.S. and Israeli counter-terrorism experts have cited numerous instances in which Al Qaeda and Hamas drew funding from international Islamic charities. Hamas also reportedly has used schools and hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza to store weapons and plan attacks.

Faced with U.S. and European measures aimed at preventing charity funds from being funneled into terrorism, Hamas has erased many of its traceable financial links to the humanitarian programs. But Hamas figures remain on the boards and in management of the programs, which analysts say have become an essential component of the group's public support.

"Hamas has been very good at compartmentalizing their activities -- where they have a soup kitchen, for example, they simply give soup, nothing more," said Mouin Rabbani of the International Crisis Group, which studied Islamic social activism in the occupied territories. "But it all fits into a broader pattern of popular mobilization and becomes another way of seeking support for the organization."

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar...ld/fg-charity2

and why did they vote for Hamas?

Brainster · 31st May 2010, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by DC

no some posters seem to think its OK all Palestinians suffer because a minority of the Palestinians voted for Hamas. that is what i call Ridiculous.

What percentage of Germans voted for the Nazis?

DC · 31st May 2010, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

What percentage of Germans voted for the Nazis?

where are the Hamas death camps and what other countries has Hamas violently taken over?

bigjelmapro · 31st May 2010, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by funk de fino

That site is almost a parody site. He he. Remember your boots in Iraq crap as well? You are good at the made up stuff eh?

So no honest reply to the collective punishment allegation. Stick to the vague definition of the term. And I do quite enjoy the attempt to link this to a hypothetical discussion in another thread, which I did lay on the table.

So another +1 peg to your failure at debate. Ciao.

bigjelmapro · 1st June 2010, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by geni

I know that the blockade meets the old effective requirement. The problem is that that standard is generaly considered to have become defunct prior to the founding of israel.

The old effective requirement of stopping some trade isn't applicable here. I've stated the reasoning for this...

Quote:

WW2 isn't relivant. We know the both sides broke the relivant laws there. Thats why Dönitz got off fairly lightly.

There's not measure of equivalence in the current case. Point out where this naval blockade isn't legitimate and stop trying to draw parallels with WWII (even after your repeated attempts of stating that its irrelevant).

Quote:

Where the UN hasn't oked it. You are argueing that it is that it is de facto legal.

Quite the contrary. I think your position is that since it wasn't ok'd by the UN, then there lacks any legality and credibility in Israel invoking a naval blockade on Gaza and that this blockade is in addition to the practice of retorsion in a state of conflict.

I've stated the reasoning behind this blockade and the effectiveness of it (as the measure I gave, not the WWII measure). If there's anything you wish to add to this, go right ahead, but as far as I see, you aren't really making an attempt on addressing the issues I've laid out in the previous post.

DC · 1st June 2010, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

So no honest reply to the collective punishment allegation. Stick to the vague definition of the term. And I do quite enjoy the attempt to link this to a hypothetical discussion in another thread, which I did lay on the table.

So another +1 peg to your failure at debate. Ciao.

what term do you want us to use, when we want to describe the punishment of all palestinians for the acts of a few? like in the case of the blockade for example.

we could aslo call it terror? thats better?

bigjelmapro · 1st June 2010, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Kopji

If an attack is broadcast live over the internet by your enemies, that does not really sound like you are in very good control of the battlespace.

What do you think happens when you have 800 'activists' on a boat followed around with camera crew? Provocation and effective propaganda. Still, how is this relevant to the argument?

Quote:

My other 'angle' would be that I expect Israel to be more cool and professional.

Commandos getting overpowered, having their weapons taken, thrown overboard sounds like Israel did not really understand their enemy, underestimated them, made critical mistakes, are embarrassed before the world, and further inflamed a region that really does not need any more.

First statement doesn't fall in line with the 2nd one. Actually, quite contradictory. It was a miscalculation by the IDF to base their line of action based on the dealings of previous flotillas filled with actual activists rather than IHH supported radicals.

So this angle is what exactly? Is it an angle at all?

Quote:

Despite that... Israel never wrong. Ever. Anything at all. Period.

Oh, whinge whinge. First the victim card, now the 'israel can do no wrong' stunt. Predictable as always. And a loss in debate on your part, as always.

Quote:

Touch a nerve there did I? By tomorrow morning I'll be surprised if there are not political cartoons morphing the Israel flag into a pirate flag. But so what? Clearly Israel as a national entity does not care what anyone thinks.

Nah, I just find you guys comical in your half-baked attempts at debate. I'm sure the liberal media will try their hand again at legal terms and completely screw it up as usual. I've yet to see any allegations of piracy stick especially if this is the right of a country in a state of armed conflict to impose a naval blockade.

No counter to that. If you wish to try that again, by all means.

Quote:

I completely understand the soldier's right to defend themselves. I am actually sympathetic. They brought paintball guns to a knife fight.

Yeah, those darn peace activists these days eh?

Quote:

Sorry what? They hate you. THEY HATE YOU. Yes even extending to the peace activists. Sheesh doesn't Israel get it? and this will make more hate.

Violence escalates? Should be an old lesson by now for both Israel and Palestinians.

Oh no's, they hate us. More reason to fold, cower and give in eh? I'm sure giving in, allowing Hamas to further stockpile weapons, win more propaganda wars is the solution. Still pushing the notion that these are 'peace activists'?

Quote:

Israel is better than this.
Her people are capable of greater deeds.
Her military is more competent.

IDF has learned once again that

Would love to see another country deal better with this.

bigjelmapro · 1st June 2010, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by DC

what term do you want us to use, when we want to describe the punishment of all palestinians for the acts of a few? like in the case of the blockade for example.

we could aslo call it terror? thats better?

Retorsion. Been through this, even linked an article differentiating between the two. [edit=Tricky] Edited for Rule 12. [edit]

DC · 1st June 2010, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

Retorsion. Been through this, even linked an article differentiating between the two. But as usual, DC, laziness gets the better of you. I only wish you actually make an attempt to properly debate and make yourself more relevant to the threads you partake it. You're as useless as pubic hair at the moment....

yeah sorry for not reading every post of yours....

zooterkin · 1st June 2010, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

33% of Germany voted for the Nazi party in 1933. Should 100% of Germany been punished for this vote?

I think you'll find they were, pretty much.

bigjelmapro · 1st June 2010, 12:26 AM

Edited by Tricky:

Edited for Rule 12.

PhantomWolf · 1st June 2010, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

Israelis claimed to only have pistols. And yet, there is a photo of one holding a rifle or shotgun. what else did they lie about?

Try again, the soldier is holding a paintball gun.

PhantomWolf · 1st June 2010, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

They weren't in the Exclusion Zone, if such a law exists then I can't see how it can apply to vessels outside of the blockade area, in international waters, flying a national flag. Seems to me that Israel thinks itself above the law.

And it's not like the US and allies never did the exact same thing when Iraq was under saction.

Eddie Dane · 1st June 2010, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Imagine if another power had done this to an Israeli vessel. There'd be a war going by now

Really?

If an private Israeli political activist group in a merchant ship would try to break a naval blockade in a foreign war zone? And was warned to turn back? And was offered to have the aid goods delivered by the army? And resisted when boarded by the navy?

Sure, they'd send in the nuclear subs.

Eddie Dane · 1st June 2010, 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by DC

is Hamas solely a terrorist organisation? Or does it also maintain extensive social services network that the PA Authority failed to keep up?

Hamas is a grassroots organisation that has been affective at many things besides terrorism. Also Fatah is seen (probably correctly) as corrupt.

Even apart from the occupation problem, I'm hardly surprised that they won the election.

bit_pattern · 1st June 2010, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

And it's not like the US and allies never did the exact same thing when Iraq was under saction.

Source?

And, not a paintball gun

http://img.waffleimages.com/d9cfae76...he-Tur-006.jpg

More like a M1014 shottie

bit_pattern · 1st June 2010, 02:14 AM

oops... my bad

bigjelmapro · 1st June 2010, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

And, not a paintball gun

@ 1:01 clearly show a paintball gun. Pretty standard.

Quote:

More like a M1014 shottie

Actually more like the Remington 870. Don't think that the IDF has any Italian shotguns in stock.

PhantomWolf · 1st June 2010, 03:04 AM

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Source?

http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/dstorm/ds3.htm

Read "THE MARITIME INTERCEPTION CAMPAIGN"

Quote:

Over an eight-month period, over 165 ships from 14 allied nations challenged more than 9,000 merchant vessels, boarded more than 1,100 to inspect manifests and cargo holds and diverted over 60 for violation of sanction guidelines. U.S. boarding teams conducted 582 of those boardings. Another 25 were combined U.S.-allied boardings.

PhantomWolf · 1st June 2010, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

@ 1:01 clearly show a paintball gun. Pretty standard.

And anyone actually following the thread would have seen a better copy of that exact image identifying the weapon carried as a paintball gun.

zooterkin · 1st June 2010, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by bigjelmapro

@ 1:01 clearly show a paintball gun. Pretty standard.

It's standard for Israeli army to use paintball guns in a night-time assault in international waters? How are the people they are attacking supposed to know that?

bit_pattern · 1st June 2010, 03:16 AM

Can you be more specific when you say "paintball gun"? And that link doesn't say anything about international waters, of which there are bugger all in the Gulf anyway so the point is moot. The whole Gulf was an exclusion zone, I want to know about open international waters not subject to any naval blockade.

PhantomWolf · 1st June 2010, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

It's standard for Israeli army to use paintball guns in a night-time assault in international waters? How are the people they are attacking supposed to know that?

If you mean the "peace" activists that started the whole thing by attacking the Israelis as they boarded, they didn't appear to wait to find out, they just laid into them with pipes and other weapons.

DC · 1st June 2010, 03:34 AM

the Israelis started the whole thing by boarding the vessel.

lionking · 1st June 2010, 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by DC

the Israelis started the whole thing by boarding the vessel.

And the vessel was there for????

Eddie Dane · 1st June 2010, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by DC

the Israelis started the whole thing by boarding the vessel.

They were right to board the ship, in the very least to check the cargo.
It was to be expected that they would board, much more likely than a free passage.

Considering the condemnation they got, they could have saved themselves a lot of trouble and just torpedoed the vessel.

Edit: yes that was sarcasm.

31st May 2010, 09:41 PM	#321
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by The Fool keep applauding them and they will keep ********* things up for your amusement. Its a win-win situation Since by "********* things up" you are referring to the incident of stopping ships from violating blockades on genocidal governments and only using deadly force to respond to deadly threats, I think I will keep applauding, thank you very much.
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31st May 2010, 09:59 PM	#322
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	LMAO at genocidal And you have the gumption o accuse others of being Orwellian with their language.
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs."

31st May 2010, 10:02 PM	#323
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by bit_pattern LMAO at genocidal And you have the gumption o accuse others of being Orwellian with their language. Don't recall accusing anyone in this thread of being Orwellian, only dishonest and inaccurate. Hasn't been updated in awhile, but it's easy to find Palestinian leaders calling for genocide. Top google result for "palestinian anti-semitic genocidal" http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html Quote: Last week PMW released the text of this call for the killing of all Americans and Jews, preached by the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, Dr. Ahmad Bahar on Palestinian television. Israel is referred to as a "cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation," and the US is said to be "on its way to disappear." Due to its importance PMW is now releasing the subtitled video.
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31st May 2010, 10:09 PM	#324
Noztradamus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,839	Originally Posted by geni Quote: Originally Posted by Skeptic If, in the first world war, a flotilla of ships sailed from Turkey to Germany claiming they are bringing "humanitarian aid" to Germany in violation of the British navy's blockade, you can bet your behind the navy would have sunk them. Err britian was at war with turkey. Britian wouldn't care where such ships were sailing to. Now Sweden to germany is where things got complicated. Picky, picky. Then what would the Union have done if someone had attempted to break the blockade of Confederate ports during the USAn Civil War?
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31st May 2010, 10:12 PM	#325
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	Originally Posted by quixotecoyote Don't recall accusing anyone in this thread of being Orwellian, only dishonest and inaccurate. Hasn't been updated in awhile, but it's easy to find Palestinian leaders calling for genocide. Top google result for "palestinian anti-semitic genocidal" http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html Yes, because a tinpot militia has the ability to wipe out a race defended by one of the worlds most efficient and well equipped nuclear armed forces
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs."

31st May 2010, 10:14 PM	#326
quixotecoyote Howling to glory I go Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 9,621	Originally Posted by bit_pattern Yes, because a tinpot militia has the ability to wipe out a race defended by one of the worlds most efficient and well equipped nuclear armed forces Well that's a silly idea. I'm glad I never said anything like it.
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31st May 2010, 10:26 PM	#327
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,630	Originally Posted by bit_pattern Yes, because a tinpot militia has the ability to wipe out a race defended by one of the worlds most efficient and well equipped nuclear armed forces Do you still deny the intent?
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st May 2010, 10:35 PM	#328
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	Originally Posted by theprestige Since Hamas was elected democratically, doesn't that make Gazans collectively responsible by definition, and--unlike other communities during wartime--totally deserving of collective punishment? The way I see it, collective punishment of the Gazan people is only a problem if democracy itself is a problem, or if Gazans did not actually implement a democratic election. So which is it? Is Hamas a corrupt and criminal organization, that stole the election in Gaza? Or is democracy a bankrupt institution that does not actually represent the will of the people? Or did Gazans intentionally choose to be collectively responsible for electing Hamas? Hamas won with 100% of the votes in an election where 100% of the voters voted?
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31st May 2010, 10:38 PM	#329
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	Originally Posted by Pardalis I'm surprised at how quickly protesters took to the streets around the world, within hours of the raid. yeah they all knew beforehand , they conspired against Israel
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31st May 2010, 10:46 PM	#330
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	is Hamas solely a terrorist organisation? Or does it also maintain extensive social services network that the PA Authority failed to keep up?
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31st May 2010, 10:52 PM	#331
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	even if Hamas would have won the election with 100%, there were still 25% of the voters that did not vote, what about them? is it ok to punish them?
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31st May 2010, 10:55 PM	#332
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	and Hamas had 44.45 % of the votes and voters turnout was 74.6%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electio...onal_Authority
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31st May 2010, 10:56 PM	#333
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 29,630	Originally Posted by DC and Hamas had 44.45 % of the votes and voters turnout was 74.6%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electio...onal_Authority So what are you saying? Only 44.45% should be subject to sanction? Ridiculous.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

31st May 2010, 11:02 PM	#334
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	Originally Posted by lionking So what are you saying? Only 44.45% should be subject to sanction? Ridiculous. no some posters seem to think its OK all Palestinians suffer because a minority of the Palestinians voted for Hamas. that is what i call Ridiculous. its exactly what a radical Palestinian once said in an Interview when talking about 9/11, he said its OK to punish civilians in a democracy as they are directly responsible for the government and its actions. and here i read the same radical BS from the other side.
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it Last edited by DC; 31st May 2010 at 11:04 PM.

31st May 2010, 11:04 PM	#335
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	Quote: The small clinic on the edge of one of the Gaza Strip's biggest refugee camps is one of hundreds of medical centers, food banks, summer camps and schools across the West Bank and Gaza operated by Islamic charities, many of them linked to the Islamic Resistance Movement, better known by its Arabic acronym Hamas. The militant group's recent victory in parliamentary elections is testimony in part to its long track record on the streets. Its services are often perceived as being of higher quality and less tainted by corruption than the cumbersome and often ineffective social network operated by the Palestinian Authority controlled until now by Fatah. The work Hamas does at home is an often-overlooked key to the domestic popularity of an organization most known elsewhere for killing. The United States has declared Hamas a terrorist organization, and U.S. and Israeli counter-terrorism experts have cited numerous instances in which Al Qaeda and Hamas drew funding from international Islamic charities. Hamas also reportedly has used schools and hospitals in the West Bank and Gaza to store weapons and plan attacks. Faced with U.S. and European measures aimed at preventing charity funds from being funneled into terrorism, Hamas has erased many of its traceable financial links to the humanitarian programs. But Hamas figures remain on the boards and in management of the programs, which analysts say have become an essential component of the group's public support. "Hamas has been very good at compartmentalizing their activities -- where they have a soup kitchen, for example, they simply give soup, nothing more," said Mouin Rabbani of the International Crisis Group, which studied Islamic social activism in the occupied territories. "But it all fits into a broader pattern of popular mobilization and becomes another way of seeking support for the organization." http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar...ld/fg-charity2 and why did they vote for Hamas?
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31st May 2010, 11:13 PM	#336
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10,408	Originally Posted by DC no some posters seem to think its OK all Palestinians suffer because a minority of the Palestinians voted for Hamas. that is what i call Ridiculous. What percentage of Germans voted for the Nazis?
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31st May 2010, 11:19 PM	#337
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	Originally Posted by Brainster What percentage of Germans voted for the Nazis? where are the Hamas death camps and what other countries has Hamas violently taken over?
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31st May 2010, 11:53 PM	#338
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Originally Posted by funk de fino That site is almost a parody site. He he. Remember your boots in Iraq crap as well? You are good at the made up stuff eh? So no honest reply to the collective punishment allegation. Stick to the vague definition of the term. And I do quite enjoy the attempt to link this to a hypothetical discussion in another thread, which I did lay on the table. So another +1 peg to your failure at debate. Ciao.
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

1st June 2010, 12:02 AM	#339
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Originally Posted by geni I know that the blockade meets the old effective requirement. The problem is that that standard is generaly considered to have become defunct prior to the founding of israel. The old effective requirement of stopping some trade isn't applicable here. I've stated the reasoning for this... Quote: WW2 isn't relivant. We know the both sides broke the relivant laws there. Thats why Dönitz got off fairly lightly. There's not measure of equivalence in the current case. Point out where this naval blockade isn't legitimate and stop trying to draw parallels with WWII (even after your repeated attempts of stating that its irrelevant). Quote: Where the UN hasn't oked it. You are argueing that it is that it is de facto legal. Quite the contrary. I think your position is that since it wasn't ok'd by the UN, then there lacks any legality and credibility in Israel invoking a naval blockade on Gaza and that this blockade is in addition to the practice of retorsion in a state of conflict. I've stated the reasoning behind this blockade and the effectiveness of it (as the measure I gave, not the WWII measure). If there's anything you wish to add to this, go right ahead, but as far as I see, you aren't really making an attempt on addressing the issues I've laid out in the previous post.
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

1st June 2010, 12:04 AM	#340
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro So no honest reply to the collective punishment allegation. Stick to the vague definition of the term. And I do quite enjoy the attempt to link this to a hypothetical discussion in another thread, which I did lay on the table. So another +1 peg to your failure at debate. Ciao. what term do you want us to use, when we want to describe the punishment of all palestinians for the acts of a few? like in the case of the blockade for example. we could aslo call it terror? thats better?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it Last edited by DC; 1st June 2010 at 12:06 AM.

1st June 2010, 12:16 AM	#341
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Originally Posted by Kopji If an attack is broadcast live over the internet by your enemies, that does not really sound like you are in very good control of the battlespace. What do you think happens when you have 800 'activists' on a boat followed around with camera crew? Provocation and effective propaganda. Still, how is this relevant to the argument? Quote: My other 'angle' would be that I expect Israel to be more cool and professional. Commandos getting overpowered, having their weapons taken, thrown overboard sounds like Israel did not really understand their enemy, underestimated them, made critical mistakes, are embarrassed before the world, and further inflamed a region that really does not need any more. First statement doesn't fall in line with the 2nd one. Actually, quite contradictory. It was a miscalculation by the IDF to base their line of action based on the dealings of previous flotillas filled with actual activists rather than IHH supported radicals. So this angle is what exactly? Is it an angle at all? Quote: Despite that... Israel never wrong. Ever. Anything at all. Period. Oh, whinge whinge. First the victim card, now the 'israel can do no wrong' stunt. Predictable as always. And a loss in debate on your part, as always. Quote: Touch a nerve there did I? By tomorrow morning I'll be surprised if there are not political cartoons morphing the Israel flag into a pirate flag. But so what? Clearly Israel as a national entity does not care what anyone thinks. Nah, I just find you guys comical in your half-baked attempts at debate. I'm sure the liberal media will try their hand again at legal terms and completely screw it up as usual. I've yet to see any allegations of piracy stick especially if this is the right of a country in a state of armed conflict to impose a naval blockade. No counter to that. If you wish to try that again, by all means. Quote: I completely understand the soldier's right to defend themselves. I am actually sympathetic. They brought paintball guns to a knife fight. Yeah, those darn peace activists these days eh? Quote: Sorry what? They hate you. THEY HATE YOU. Yes even extending to the peace activists. Sheesh doesn't Israel get it? and this will make more hate. Violence escalates? Should be an old lesson by now for both Israel and Palestinians. Oh no's, they hate us. More reason to fold, cower and give in eh? I'm sure giving in, allowing Hamas to further stockpile weapons, win more propaganda wars is the solution. Still pushing the notion that these are 'peace activists'? Quote: Israel is better than this. Her people are capable of greater deeds. Her military is more competent. IDF has learned once again that Would love to see another country deal better with this.
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

1st June 2010, 12:18 AM	#342
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Originally Posted by DC what term do you want us to use, when we want to describe the punishment of all palestinians for the acts of a few? like in the case of the blockade for example. we could aslo call it terror? thats better? Retorsion. Been through this, even linked an article differentiating between the two. [edit=Tricky] Edited for Rule 12. [edit]
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Last edited by Tricky; 1st June 2010 at 05:36 AM.

1st June 2010, 12:21 AM	#343
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,628	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro Retorsion. Been through this, even linked an article differentiating between the two. But as usual, DC, laziness gets the better of you. I only wish you actually make an attempt to properly debate and make yourself more relevant to the threads you partake it. You're as useless as pubic hair at the moment.... yeah sorry for not reading every post of yours....
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

1st June 2010, 12:26 AM	#344
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,531	Originally Posted by Thunder 33% of Germany voted for the Nazi party in 1933. Should 100% of Germany been punished for this vote? I think you'll find they were, pretty much.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

1st June 2010, 12:46 AM	#346
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,890	Originally Posted by Thunder Israelis claimed to only have pistols. And yet, there is a photo of one holding a rifle or shotgun. what else did they lie about? Try again, the soldier is holding a paintball gun.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

1st June 2010, 12:50 AM	#347
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,890	Originally Posted by bit_pattern They weren't in the Exclusion Zone, if such a law exists then I can't see how it can apply to vessels outside of the blockade area, in international waters, flying a national flag. Seems to me that Israel thinks itself above the law. And it's not like the US and allies never did the exact same thing when Iraq was under saction.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

1st June 2010, 01:34 AM	#348
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,413	Originally Posted by bit_pattern Imagine if another power had done this to an Israeli vessel. There'd be a war going by now Really? If an private Israeli political activist group in a merchant ship would try to break a naval blockade in a foreign war zone? And was warned to turn back? And was offered to have the aid goods delivered by the army? And resisted when boarded by the navy? Sure, they'd send in the nuclear subs.

1st June 2010, 01:39 AM	#349
Eddie Dane Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,413	Originally Posted by DC is Hamas solely a terrorist organisation? Or does it also maintain extensive social services network that the PA Authority failed to keep up? Hamas is a grassroots organisation that has been affective at many things besides terrorism. Also Fatah is seen (probably correctly) as corrupt. Even apart from the occupation problem, I'm hardly surprised that they won the election.
	Last edited by Eddie Dane; 1st June 2010 at 01:48 AM.

1st June 2010, 01:44 AM	#350
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf And it's not like the US and allies never did the exact same thing when Iraq was under saction. Source? And, not a paintball gun http://img.waffleimages.com/d9cfae76...he-Tur-006.jpg More like a M1014 shottie
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs."

1st June 2010, 02:14 AM	#351
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	oops... my bad
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs." Last edited by bit_pattern; 1st June 2010 at 02:27 AM.

1st June 2010, 02:49 AM	#352
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505	Originally Posted by bit_pattern And, not a paintball gun @ 1:01 clearly show a paintball gun. Pretty standard. Quote: More like a M1014 shottie Actually more like the Remington 870. Don't think that the IDF has any Italian shotguns in stock.
bigjelmapro Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,505

1st June 2010, 03:04 AM	#353
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,890	Originally Posted by bit_pattern Source? http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/dstorm/ds3.htm Read "THE MARITIME INTERCEPTION CAMPAIGN" Quote: Over an eight-month period, over 165 ships from 14 allied nations challenged more than 9,000 merchant vessels, boarded more than 1,100 to inspect manifests and cargo holds and diverted over 60 for violation of sanction guidelines. U.S. boarding teams conducted 582 of those boardings. Another 25 were combined U.S.-allied boardings.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics. Last edited by PhantomWolf; 1st June 2010 at 03:09 AM.

1st June 2010, 03:06 AM	#354
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,890	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro @ 1:01 clearly show a paintball gun. Pretty standard. And anyone actually following the thread would have seen a better copy of that exact image identifying the weapon carried as a paintball gun.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

1st June 2010, 03:10 AM	#355
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,531	Originally Posted by bigjelmapro @ 1:01 clearly show a paintball gun. Pretty standard. It's standard for Israeli army to use paintball guns in a night-time assault in international waters? How are the people they are attacking supposed to know that?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

1st June 2010, 03:16 AM	#356
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	Can you be more specific when you say "paintball gun"? And that link doesn't say anything about international waters, of which there are bugger all in the Gulf anyway so the point is moot. The whole Gulf was an exclusion zone, I want to know about open international waters not subject to any naval blockade.
bit_pattern Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 4,349	__________________ "You are the epitome of the 'pigeon playing chess'. No matter how good I am at chess, you are just going to knock the pieces over, **** on the board and strut around like you've won something" "In this political climate, all of science is vulnerable to ideological attack when reality disagrees with political beliefs." Last edited by bit_pattern; 1st June 2010 at 03:19 AM.