Examples of U.S. Soverign Citizen (Freeman on the Land) Failures - Page 10

Bluekush623 · 8th June 2010, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Fair enough. Now explain why reaping the benefits of living within a society should not constitute consent to be governed by its rules.

reaping what benefits?

Marquis de Carabas · 8th June 2010, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

reaping what benefits?

Security, for one.

Bluekush623 · 8th June 2010, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd

So how can you claim that FOTL is a cure for the current system while simultaneously claiming that it is already part of the current system?

Is this like Schrödinger's cat?

because it is the foundation of the system that has become infected and corrupted.

Sledge · 8th June 2010, 07:39 PM

http://www.teachingandlearningresour...ophones3.shtml

JimBenArm · 8th June 2010, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

do you even understand the difference between mala in se and mala prohibitum?
Until you do i would stop posting your opinions.

Why? Your posts show you don't know the difference, yet it hasn't slowed you down.

JoeyDonuts · 8th June 2010, 08:44 PM

I think I'm going to steal BlueKush's computer.

And I'm not going to feel like giving it back either.

I won't consent to any attempt to him retreiving it either, or acknowledge the legitimacy of any law that says I have to return it to him.

I should be allowed to consent only with my own personal code, which permits me to keep things I retain through force of arms.

kerikiwi · 8th June 2010, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

Your understanding of law is complete rubbish.

Can you cite which law says you have the option of obeying laws?

defaultdotxbe · 8th June 2010, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

Mala in Se: The phrase is used to refer to conduct assessed as inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct or consent.

so what do you consider inherently wrong by nature? do all people consider the same things to be wrong by nature? if not, how is it inherently wrong?

for example, theft. if you look at nature you see stronger animals taking things from weaker ones all the time. also, theft implies ownership, native americans may feel ownership is not natural.

how about murder, animals kill each other all the time, mostly for food, but sometimes for territorial concerns. is it ok to kill someone as long as you eat them afterward?

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

no one born in america has consented to live here. your tacit consent holds no water.

i was born in america, i have had several opportunities to move to another country and obtain foreign citizenship, i have not done so because i prefer (and consent) to live in america

kerikiwi · 8th June 2010, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

Because they are only man made laws that need consent too be enforced.

You can not tell someone how to live their life if they live peacefully and do not enforce their will upon others.

It is really as simple as that.

Actually it is not as simple as that.
By 'you' I presume you, Bluekush, mean people who make laws.
So, yes, people who make laws can and do tell people how to live their lives, even if they live their lives peacefully and do not enforce their will on others.
Whether they (the lawmakers) should do that is another question.
Man made laws (there are no other kind) do not need the individual consent of each person subject to those laws in order to be enforced. They need the collective consent.
You might wish that your individual consent were required, but wishing ain't reality.

What would be your position if someone attacked you and perhaps permanently disabled you? Would you think that person should avoid the legal consequences by refusing to consent? After all, it is a man made law which says people cannot attack other people.

TSR · 8th June 2010, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas

Please, let us not carry on to long.

.
Whether, whether, whether, whether
Whether you like it or not
Weather, weather, weather, weather
Weather is cold, warm and hot.

Two, two, two, two
Two of my favorite toys
I'm bringing to, to, to, to
A place the first one enjoys…
and I like it, too!

Homophones! Homophones!
Where the crews come cruising down the plane!
Homophones! Homophones!
I need my kneaded biscuits plain!

ummmm. I've mentioned the 5 year old before, haven't I?
.

gtm · 9th June 2010, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

No this is just JREF's false interpretation.

So what do Freemen do aside from Court room theatrics & bust ups with Policemen / local government officialdom?

gtm · 9th June 2010, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

and your point is?

I'd have thought that was obvious. Selling substandard / adulterated goods to a consumer can (& does) result in injury.

gtm · 9th June 2010, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

Again, same answer. FOTL is a remedy to the current system.

It isn't a 'remedy' to the current system because FMOTL argument have time & time again been emphatically rejected by the courts & authorities across the anglophone world. it's about as effective a remedy as trying to cure cancer by shoving a onion up the patients bottom.

Mojo · 9th June 2010, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by volatile

I don't think even he knows precisely if he's talking in actuals or in hypotheticals.

He seems to be claiming that the court system is hypothetical:

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

No the problem is that the court system no longer operates in the real world.

Mojo · 9th June 2010, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless

---

or that of their representatives so elected
or that of their representatives so elected
or that of their representatives so elected

Just sayin

My bold.

I'll add "or" to the list of words you don't understand.

JoeyDonuts · 9th June 2010, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by gtm

So what do Freemen do aside from Court room theatrics & bust ups with Policemen / local government officialdom?

I'd imagine one could find them at your local gun show of choice peddling Myron Fagan, the Turner Diaries, and handing out literature for GoldLine.

Ladewig · 9th June 2010, 05:12 AM

Is not paying taxes a victimless crime?

Sledge · 9th June 2010, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

He seems to be claiming that the court system is hypothetical:

He's claiming both at the same time, and denying both at the same time. How anyone can suggest his posts could be the product of a drug-addled mind is beyond me.

jargon buster · 9th June 2010, 05:55 AM

Its either deliberate deception or alzhiemers that some of these freemen suffer from (or both)
Merlincove the moderator on David Ickes as just posted a video as proof of success which is clear proof of its failure once you know the story.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...=119454&page=8
It show Ray St Clair (Google him if you must) shouting a lot in court.
The actual case was as follows;
Council sought liability order against person.
liability order granted.

Thats a win apparently because they claim that the liability order was signed prior to the case taking place and as such was not a fair hearing.
What they fail to grasp even after being told on several occasions is that the time on the order is the time the case was scheduled to go ahead.

Merlincove is aware of all this information but is relying on new people seeing the video being unaware and as such perpetrate the myth.

I would post and correct him but Im banned

I will be addressing it on my blog later

JB

Cuddles · 9th June 2010, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by volatile

It wouldn't be much of a remedy if it made it worse, would it?!

Maybe it's a herbal remedy?

Hans · 9th June 2010, 08:51 AM

Hmmmm

BK623, you keep inferring that this concept of individual consent arose from the Constitution, it did not, if you believe it did please provide the relevant passages from the constitution or the Federalist papers. One must also wonder why no one seems to have been aware of this 'concept', how do you explain this lack of observation of what would have been such a fundamental change in political design and usage?

Just so we understand where you are coming from could you let us know which of the following law you believe you can pick and choose from:

Federal taxes

State taxes

County property taxes

Drug use laws

Selling drugs to minors

Licensing of motor vehicles

Traffic laws

Laws requiring car insurance

Drivers license

That should be a start

talkie toaster · 9th June 2010, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by Hans

Just so we understand where you are coming from could you let us know which of the following law you believe you can pick and choose from:

Federal taxes
State taxes
County property taxes
Drug use laws
Selling drugs to minors
Licensing of motor vehicles
Traffic laws
Laws requiring car insurance
Drivers license

That should be a start

I'd guess the following:-

Federal taxes----costs me money so NO don't like that one

State taxes -----costs me money so NO don't like that one

County property taxes---costs me money so NO don't like that one

Drug use laws---- hey I like ma weed so NO

Selling drugs to minors----kids innit gotta look after the kids.

Licensing of motor vehicles---costs me money so NO don't like that one

Traffic laws---costs me money so NO don't like that one

Laws requiring car insurance----costs me money so NO don't like that one

Drivers license---costs me money so NO don't like that one

And the theme is not paying i.e. Freeloading.

Ricomise · 9th June 2010, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

you must define rules or laws.

and i have already done that for you guys. there is mala prohibitium and mala in se.

Mala Prohibitium is Phrase used in law to refer to conduct that constitutes an unlawful act only by virtue of statute and consent.

Mala in Se: The phrase is used to refer to conduct assessed as inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct or consent.

Since you seem to enjoy legal philosophy, care to define these crimes?

Prostitution-Malum in se or prohibitum?

Procurement-Malum in se or prohibitum?

False imprisonment- Malum in se or prohibitum?

Keeping of slaves- Malum in se or prohibitum?

Negligent homocide- (Note: not murder.)- Malum in se or prohibitum?

Uttering a forged instument- Malum in se or prohibitum?

Crime of misprison (I add this because you seem to like archaic language)- Malum in se or prohibitum?

Which of these crimes can I safely not consent to?

Captain_Swoop · 9th June 2010, 12:48 PM

Maybe it's Homeopathic Law, the more you lose cases the more effective it is.

Checkmite · 9th June 2010, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

Being hauled off to jail is a bitter conclusion to either gross negligence or complete unawareness of the court system.

So if someone pleads his FOTL stuff to a court and the court throws him in jail anyway, that's because the court system doesn't know how the court system works? That's awesome.

So, umm, in the above instance...what's the FOTL's "legal remedy" to being thrown in jail anyway after making his FOTL declaration in court?

Sledge · 9th June 2010, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

So, umm, in the above instance...what's the FOTL's "legal remedy" to being thrown in jail anyway after making his FOTL declaration in court?

Ooh ooh ooh! I know, I know! Is it to declare that anal rape was what you wanted and you've tricked the court system into doing what you wanted?

dudalb · 9th June 2010, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by talkie toaster

I'd guess the following:-

Federal taxes----costs me money so NO don't like that one

State taxes -----costs me money so NO don't like that one

County property taxes---costs me money so NO don't like that one

Drug use laws---- hey I like ma weed so NO

Selling drugs to minors----kids innit gotta look after the kids.

Licensing of motor vehicles---costs me money so NO don't like that one

Traffic laws---costs me money so NO don't like that one

Laws requiring car insurance----costs me money so NO don't like that one

Drivers license---costs me money so NO don't like that one

And the theme is not paying i.e. Freeloading.

We have calling them "Freeloaders On The Land" for quite some time.

JoeyDonuts · 9th June 2010, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Maybe it's Homeopathic Law, the more you lose cases the more effective it is.

nominated

Mojo · 10th June 2010, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Originally Posted by Bluekush623

Being hauled off to jail is a bitter conclusion to either gross negligence or complete unawareness of the court system.

So if someone pleads his FOTL stuff to a court and the court throws him in jail anyway, that's because the court system doesn't know how the court system works? That's awesome.

Ah, I was reading that differently. I was taking it as meaning that the FOTLers being hauled off to jail was because of their complete unawareness of the court system rather than the court system's complete unawareness of itself. My interpretation makes more sense, but yours fits FOTLer rhetoric better.

LightinDarkness · 10th June 2010, 05:12 PM

Over on Godlikeproductions the woos are celebrating over a first hand report of a FOTL court case:

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...age1095938/pg1

My favorite part:

Quote:

The judge then asks him to take be seated. He replies that he does not recognize the authority which is asking him to sit. Eventually he sits down. Then I watch the women next to me in the visitor section right a note "DO NOT SIT. THIS IS HOW THEY GET YOU TO COMPLY. DO NOT SIT" The judge asks him to go back to the audience so he can take more cases and here him later. Then the women gives him the note.

GLP has a very high quotient of mentally ill people - literally, they even state they don't "discriminate" against the mentally ill by stopping them from posting or asking that they seek help from a professional - and they are LOVING this.

The case was merely continued as the judge didn't feel like dealing with the woo shenanigans. If they hadn't been practicing FMOTL woo and brought an audience of 30 people, who knows - the issue could have been resolved then and there. FMOTL woo yet AGAIN just making things harder on people who use it.

defaultdotxbe · 10th June 2010, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by LightinDarkness

Over on Godlikeproductions the woos are celebrating over a first hand report of a FOTL court case:

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...age1095938/pg1

My favorite part:

GLP has a very high quotient of mentally ill people - literally, they even state they don't "discriminate" against the mentally ill by stopping them from posting or asking that they seek help from a professional - and they are LOVING this.

The case was merely continued as the judge didn't feel like dealing with the woo shenanigans. If they hadn't been practicing FMOTL woo and brought an audience of 30 people, who knows - the issue could have been resolved then and there. FMOTL woo yet AGAIN just making things harder on people who use it.

wait, sitting is how they get you to comply? if you dont recognize the authority of the court shouldnt you have not stood up in the first place when they say "all rise for the honorable judge whomever"

JoeyDonuts · 10th June 2010, 08:17 PM

Musical chairs to get out of paying your debts and state legal action.

It's so incredibly simple!

tsig · 10th June 2010, 09:53 PM

Another success story:

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/view...hp?f=37&t=5953

Mojo · 11th June 2010, 01:01 AM

A couple of exampes of people using what look like FOTL arguments from the Lowering the Bar blog:

Surprising Court Loss for Woman Who Challenged State's Authority to Require Driver's License

Juror Who Caused Mistrial With Online Research Must Pay Jury Fees

LightinDarkness · 11th June 2010, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by tsig

Another success story:

http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/view...hp?f=37&t=5953

I realize the "epic fail" meme is overused - but if there were ever a time to use it, its now. As usual, I stand amazed that people actually practice this stuff when we have so many examples of how this ends up. Hes going to spend 7.5 YEARS in prison for following FMOTL ritual and filing frivolous liens.

LightinDarkness · 11th June 2010, 03:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

A couple of exampes of people using what look like FOTL arguments from the Lowering the Bar blog:

Surprising Court Loss for Woman Who Challenged State's Authority to Require Driver's License

Juror Who Caused Mistrial With Online Research Must Pay Jury Fees

A new twist - FMOTL jurors!

Its comedy gold, isn't it?

Quote:

It took her two tries to do that, though, because the first time "Christiansen refused to take his seat in the courtroom because he was unwilling to recognize the court's authority." After he was reminded that the court did in fact have authority over him - a reminder conveyed by having him sit in a holding cell for several hours - he agreed to come into the courtroom and sit down after just a brief struggle with bailiffs.

Toke · 11th June 2010, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Its comedy gold, isn't it?

Yes, and at the same time kind of sad that people can be so out of synch with reality.

Paul · 11th June 2010, 03:54 AM

For some reason I can't help hearing the voice of Doyle Redland from Onion Radio News when I read those.

tsig · 11th June 2010, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

A couple of exampes of people using what look like FOTL arguments from the Lowering the Bar blog:

Surprising Court Loss for Woman Who Challenged State's Authority to Require Driver's License

Juror Who Caused Mistrial With Online Research Must Pay Jury Fees

Great links! bookmarked.

From the second one:

Christiansen is apparently one of those people who believe individual citizens are somehow "sovereign" in a way that allows them to ignore a court's authority. (For examples of other such people, see, e.g., here and here.) If so, why he showed up for jury duty at all is kind of a mystery, although maybe he was just voluntarily fulfilling a civic duty, as all good sovereigns should. But if courts only have the authority that each individual citizen chooses to give it, then it's hard to see why he thinks the defendant should have stuck around for trial, let alone agree to be convicted by Paul Christiansen.

He finally agreed to pay $1,200 for causing a mistrial but I bet he will not pay and be in even more trouble.

A simple call to jury duty converted into fine and a few hours in a holding cell with the probability of more problems to come.

tsig · 11th June 2010, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by LightinDarkness

I realize the "epic fail" meme is overused - but if there were ever a time to use it, its now. As usual, I stand amazed that people actually practice this stuff when we have so many examples of how this ends up. Hes going to spend 7.5 YEARS in prison for following FMOTL ritual and filing frivolous liens.

Well you've got to admit that they got a court to take their shenanigans seriously.

8th June 2010, 07:23 PM	#361
Bluekush623 Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 645	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas Fair enough. Now explain why reaping the benefits of living within a society should not constitute consent to be governed by its rules. reaping what benefits?
Bluekush623 Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 645

8th June 2010, 07:26 PM	#362
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 reaping what benefits? Security, for one.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

8th June 2010, 07:34 PM	#363
Bluekush623 Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 645	Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd So how can you claim that FOTL is a cure for the current system while simultaneously claiming that it is already part of the current system? Is this like Schrödinger's cat? because it is the foundation of the system that has become infected and corrupted.
Bluekush623 Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 645

8th June 2010, 07:39 PM	#364
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	http://www.teachingandlearningresour...ophones3.shtml
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

8th June 2010, 08:03 PM	#365
JimBenArm Based on a true story! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 12,975	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 do you even understand the difference between mala in se and mala prohibitum? Until you do i would stop posting your opinions. Why? Your posts show you don't know the difference, yet it hasn't slowed you down.
	__________________ *"JimBenArm is right"* Hokulele Mom

8th June 2010, 08:44 PM	#366
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	I think I'm going to steal BlueKush's computer. And I'm not going to feel like giving it back either. I won't consent to any attempt to him retreiving it either, or acknowledge the legitimacy of any law that says I have to return it to him. I should be allowed to consent only with my own personal code, which permits me to keep things I retain through force of arms.
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

8th June 2010, 08:46 PM	#367
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,845	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 Your understanding of law is complete rubbish. Can you cite which law says you have the option of obeying laws?

8th June 2010, 08:58 PM	#368
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 7,482	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 Mala in Se: The phrase is used to refer to conduct assessed as inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct or consent. so what do you consider inherently wrong by nature? do all people consider the same things to be wrong by nature? if not, how is it inherently wrong? for example, theft. if you look at nature you see stronger animals taking things from weaker ones all the time. also, theft implies ownership, native americans may feel ownership is not natural. how about murder, animals kill each other all the time, mostly for food, but sometimes for territorial concerns. is it ok to kill someone as long as you eat them afterward? Originally Posted by Bluekush623 no one born in america has consented to live here. your tacit consent holds no water. i was born in america, i have had several opportunities to move to another country and obtain foreign citizenship, i have not done so because i prefer (and consent) to live in america
	__________________ I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein

8th June 2010, 08:59 PM	#369
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,845	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 Because they are only man made laws that need consent too be enforced. You can not tell someone how to live their life if they live peacefully and do not enforce their will upon others. It is really as simple as that. Actually it is not as simple as that. By 'you' I presume you, Bluekush, mean people who make laws. So, yes, people who make laws can and do tell people how to live their lives, even if they live their lives peacefully and do not enforce their will on others. Whether they (the lawmakers) should do that is another question. Man made laws (there are no other kind) do not need the individual consent of each person subject to those laws in order to be enforced. They need the collective consent. You might wish that your individual consent were required, but wishing ain't reality. What would be your position if someone attacked you and perhaps permanently disabled you? Would you think that person should avoid the legal consequences by refusing to consent? After all, it is a man made law which says people cannot attack other people.

8th June 2010, 10:06 PM	#370
TSR Do you know what this notorious criminal did? Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 4,788	Originally Posted by Marquis de Carabas Please, let us not carry on to long. . Whether, whether, whether, whether Whether you like it or not Weather, weather, weather, weather Weather is cold, warm and hot. Two, two, two, two Two of my favorite toys I'm bringing to, to, to, to A place the first one enjoys… and I like it, too! Homophones! Homophones! Where the crews come cruising down the plane! Homophones! Homophones! I need my kneaded biscuits plain! ummmm. I've mentioned the 5 year old before, haven't I? .
	__________________ My apologies once again for not being allowed to use the obvious shorthand term for a person who knowingly posts untruths. Apparently someone finds that term uncivil, demonstrated and deserved as it is. . "My family is not my weakness, Max. It's my strength." Vince Faraday aka The Cape

9th June 2010, 12:12 AM	#371
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 598	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 No this is just JREF's false interpretation. So what do Freemen do aside from Court room theatrics & bust ups with Policemen / local government officialdom?
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 598

9th June 2010, 12:19 AM	#372
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 598	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 and your point is? I'd have thought that was obvious. Selling substandard / adulterated goods to a consumer can (& does) result in injury.
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 598

9th June 2010, 12:26 AM	#373
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 598	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 Again, same answer. FOTL is a remedy to the current system. It isn't a 'remedy' to the current system because FMOTL argument have time & time again been emphatically rejected by the courts & authorities across the anglophone world. it's about as effective a remedy as trying to cure cancer by shoving a onion up the patients bottom.
gtm Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 598

9th June 2010, 12:51 AM	#374
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,089	Originally Posted by volatile I don't think even he knows precisely if he's talking in actuals or in hypotheticals. He seems to be claiming that the court system is hypothetical: Originally Posted by Bluekush623 No the problem is that the court system no longer operates in the real world.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

9th June 2010, 12:56 AM	#375
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,089	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless --- or that of their representatives so elected or that of their representatives so elected or that of their representatives so elected Just sayin My bold. I'll add "or" to the list of words you don't understand.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

9th June 2010, 04:16 AM	#376
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	Originally Posted by gtm So what do Freemen do aside from Court room theatrics & bust ups with Policemen / local government officialdom? I'd imagine one could find them at your local gun show of choice peddling Myron Fagan, the Turner Diaries, and handing out literature for GoldLine.
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

9th June 2010, 05:12 AM	#377
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,803	Is not paying taxes a victimless crime?
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

9th June 2010, 05:32 AM	#378
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by Mojo He seems to be claiming that the court system is hypothetical: He's claiming both at the same time, and denying both at the same time. How anyone can suggest his posts could be the product of a drug-addled mind is beyond me.
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

9th June 2010, 05:55 AM	#379
jargon buster Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 4,053	Its either deliberate deception or alzhiemers that some of these freemen suffer from (or both) Merlincove the moderator on David Ickes as just posted a video as proof of success which is clear proof of its failure once you know the story. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...=119454&page=8 It show Ray St Clair (Google him if you must) shouting a lot in court. The actual case was as follows; Council sought liability order against person. liability order granted. Thats a win apparently because they claim that the liability order was signed prior to the case taking place and as such was not a fair hearing. What they fail to grasp even after being told on several occasions is that the time on the order is the time the case was scheduled to go ahead. Merlincove is aware of all this information but is relying on new people seeing the video being unaware and as such perpetrate the myth. I would post and correct him but Im banned I will be addressing it on my blog later JB
	__________________ ^{^{“She’s pregnant and in very big trouble.” ......And wasn't she just}} http://www.angelfire.com/planet/thin...hildorlife.pdf Part 1 of this thread http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=176799 Last edited by jargon buster; 9th June 2010 at 05:56 AM. Reason: adding link

9th June 2010, 07:30 AM	#380
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,580	Originally Posted by volatile It wouldn't be much of a remedy if it made it worse, would it?! Maybe it's a herbal remedy?
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

9th June 2010, 08:51 AM	#381
Hans Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: NW United States Posts: 2,785	Hmmmm BK623, you keep inferring that this concept of individual consent arose from the Constitution, it did not, if you believe it did please provide the relevant passages from the constitution or the Federalist papers. One must also wonder why no one seems to have been aware of this 'concept', how do you explain this lack of observation of what would have been such a fundamental change in political design and usage? Just so we understand where you are coming from could you let us know which of the following law you believe you can pick and choose from: Federal taxes State taxes County property taxes Drug use laws Selling drugs to minors Licensing of motor vehicles Traffic laws Laws requiring car insurance Drivers license That should be a start
	Last edited by Hans; 9th June 2010 at 08:54 AM.

9th June 2010, 09:28 AM	#382
talkie toaster Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Hey !! I've been upgraded, got a shelf all to my own....Go Talkie, Go Talkie Posts: 358	Originally Posted by Hans Just so we understand where you are coming from could you let us know which of the following law you believe you can pick and choose from: Federal taxes State taxes County property taxes Drug use laws Selling drugs to minors Licensing of motor vehicles Traffic laws Laws requiring car insurance Drivers license That should be a start I'd guess the following:- Federal taxes----costs me money so NO don't like that one State taxes -----costs me money so NO don't like that one County property taxes---costs me money so NO don't like that one Drug use laws---- hey I like ma weed so NO Selling drugs to minors----kids innit gotta look after the kids. Licensing of motor vehicles---costs me money so NO don't like that one Traffic laws---costs me money so NO don't like that one Laws requiring car insurance----costs me money so NO don't like that one Drivers license---costs me money so NO don't like that one And the theme is not paying i.e. Freeloading.

9th June 2010, 12:41 PM	#383
Ricomise Scholar Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 98	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 you must define rules or laws. and i have already done that for you guys. there is mala prohibitium and mala in se. Mala Prohibitium is Phrase used in law to refer to conduct that constitutes an unlawful act only by virtue of statute and consent. Mala in Se: The phrase is used to refer to conduct assessed as inherently wrong by nature, independent of regulations governing the conduct or consent. Since you seem to enjoy legal philosophy, care to define these crimes? Prostitution-Malum in se or prohibitum? Procurement-Malum in se or prohibitum? False imprisonment- Malum in se or prohibitum? Keeping of slaves- Malum in se or prohibitum? Negligent homocide- (Note: not murder.)- Malum in se or prohibitum? Uttering a forged instument- Malum in se or prohibitum? Crime of misprison (I add this because you seem to like archaic language)- Malum in se or prohibitum? Which of these crimes can I safely not consent to?
Ricomise Scholar Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 98	__________________ "Books are neither moral or immoral, books are well-written or poorly written." --- Oscar Wilde

9th June 2010, 12:48 PM	#384
Captain_Swoop Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 3,917	Maybe it's Homeopathic Law, the more you lose cases the more effective it is.

9th June 2010, 03:52 PM	#385
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,879	Originally Posted by Bluekush623 Being hauled off to jail is a bitter conclusion to either gross negligence or complete unawareness of the court system. So if someone pleads his FOTL stuff to a court and the court throws him in jail anyway, that's because the court system doesn't know how the court system works? That's awesome. So, umm, in the above instance...what's the FOTL's "legal remedy" to being thrown in jail anyway after making his FOTL declaration in court?
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002 Last edited by Checkmite; 9th June 2010 at 03:53 PM.

9th June 2010, 03:59 PM	#386
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by Checkmite So, umm, in the above instance...what's the FOTL's "legal remedy" to being thrown in jail anyway after making his FOTL declaration in court? Ooh ooh ooh! I know, I know! Is it to declare that anal rape was what you wanted and you've tricked the court system into doing what you wanted?
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

9th June 2010, 04:19 PM	#387
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 22,814	Originally Posted by talkie toaster I'd guess the following:- Federal taxes----costs me money so NO don't like that one State taxes -----costs me money so NO don't like that one County property taxes---costs me money so NO don't like that one Drug use laws---- hey I like ma weed so NO Selling drugs to minors----kids innit gotta look after the kids. Licensing of motor vehicles---costs me money so NO don't like that one Traffic laws---costs me money so NO don't like that one Laws requiring car insurance----costs me money so NO don't like that one Drivers license---costs me money so NO don't like that one And the theme is not paying i.e. Freeloading. We have calling them "Freeloaders On The Land" for quite some time.

9th June 2010, 07:22 PM	#388
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Maybe it's Homeopathic Law, the more you lose cases the more effective it is. nominated
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

10th June 2010, 12:57 AM	#389
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,089	Originally Posted by Checkmite Originally Posted by Bluekush623 Being hauled off to jail is a bitter conclusion to either gross negligence or complete unawareness of the court system. So if someone pleads his FOTL stuff to a court and the court throws him in jail anyway, that's because the court system doesn't know how the court system works? That's awesome. Ah, I was reading that differently. I was taking it as meaning that the FOTLers being hauled off to jail was because of their complete unawareness of the court system rather than the court system's complete unawareness of itself. My interpretation makes more sense, but yours fits FOTLer rhetoric better.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

10th June 2010, 05:12 PM	#390
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,554	Over on Godlikeproductions the woos are celebrating over a first hand report of a FOTL court case: http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...age1095938/pg1 My favorite part: Quote: The judge then asks him to take be seated. He replies that he does not recognize the authority which is asking him to sit. Eventually he sits down. Then I watch the women next to me in the visitor section right a note "DO NOT SIT. THIS IS HOW THEY GET YOU TO COMPLY. DO NOT SIT" The judge asks him to go back to the audience so he can take more cases and here him later. Then the women gives him the note. GLP has a very high quotient of mentally ill people - literally, they even state they don't "discriminate" against the mentally ill by stopping them from posting or asking that they seek help from a professional - and they are LOVING this. The case was merely continued as the judge didn't feel like dealing with the woo shenanigans. If they hadn't been practicing FMOTL woo and brought an audience of 30 people, who knows - the issue could have been resolved then and there. FMOTL woo yet AGAIN just making things harder on people who use it.
	Last edited by LightinDarkness; 10th June 2010 at 06:05 PM.

10th June 2010, 06:16 PM	#391
defaultdotxbe Drunken Shikigami Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Dark Side of the Sun Posts: 7,482	Originally Posted by LightinDarkness Over on Godlikeproductions the woos are celebrating over a first hand report of a FOTL court case: http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...age1095938/pg1 My favorite part: GLP has a very high quotient of mentally ill people - literally, they even state they don't "discriminate" against the mentally ill by stopping them from posting or asking that they seek help from a professional - and they are LOVING this. The case was merely continued as the judge didn't feel like dealing with the woo shenanigans. If they hadn't been practicing FMOTL woo and brought an audience of 30 people, who knows - the issue could have been resolved then and there. FMOTL woo yet AGAIN just making things harder on people who use it. wait, sitting is how they get you to comply? if you dont recognize the authority of the court shouldnt you have not stood up in the first place when they say "all rise for the honorable judge whomever"
	__________________ I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -Albert Einstein

10th June 2010, 08:17 PM	#392
JoeyDonuts Frequencies Not Known To Normals Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Parts Unknown Posts: 10,636	Musical chairs to get out of paying your debts and state legal action. It's so incredibly simple!
	__________________ _{EXIT STAGE LEFT! EXIT STAGE RIGHT! THERE IS NO PLACE TO RUN; ALL THE FUSES IN THE EXIT SIGNS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT!}

10th June 2010, 09:53 PM	#393
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,763	Another success story: http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/view...hp?f=37&t=5953

11th June 2010, 01:01 AM	#394
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,089	A couple of exampes of people using what look like FOTL arguments from the Lowering the Bar blog: Surprising Court Loss for Woman Who Challenged State's Authority to Require Driver's License Juror Who Caused Mistrial With Online Research Must Pay Jury Fees
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

11th June 2010, 03:38 AM	#395
LightinDarkness Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,554	Originally Posted by tsig Another success story: http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/view...hp?f=37&t=5953 I realize the "epic fail" meme is overused - but if there were ever a time to use it, its now. As usual, I stand amazed that people actually practice this stuff when we have so many examples of how this ends up. Hes going to spend 7.5 YEARS in prison for following FMOTL ritual and filing frivolous liens.