Reiki friend

[bumlet5]

One of my best friends is a firm believer in woo, and I have been ok with it so far. She doesn't spend a ton of money on woo-related products, and if something goes seriously wrong she does what needs to be done.

My current issue is that she is considered a Reiki Master (from way before knew her), and wants to open a 'practice'. I am usually supportive of my friends beliefs so long as they don't effect themselves or others detrimentally and they know where I stand on those topics, but I am torn here. I don't like the idea of her taking money and trying to 'heal' people who could potentially be very sick, but I want to be supportive of her life choices as a friend. This is a fine line I'm treading and am wondering if anyone else has had problems like this. I would appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks.

[Maia]

I'm a licensed massage therapist, and there's unfortunately a lot of this silliness mixed in with useful, evidence-based, therapeutic massage. (Has your friend told you yet about how Reiki Masters can go back in time and heal sicknesses from past lives? Well, she probably will, given any encouragement...) There's also light therapy, craniosacral massage, polarity therapy, therapeutic touch (the body isn't actually touched, just the "energy fields", you see,), and on and on and on and on. But there are also a number of modalities that are very helpful, like sports massage, neuromuscular therapy, myotherapy, postural integration, and the Alexander method, and lots that are just plain relaxing, like Swedish massage.


I've had Reiki done by friends who were in training (and I've been very nice about it and NOT made snide comments) and it's amazing how relaxing it is. Something tells me that this isn't because

Quote:

A Reiki Energy practitioner channels energy from the infinite reservoir around himself and and directs it into the recipient's energy field.

It's just really nice to lie down on a comfortable massage table and relax, and listen to soothing music, and smell burning incense with one person paying lots of attention to you and speaking in a pleasant soft voice... the stresses of the day just seem to melt away... so if Reiki was being promoted for entertainment/relaxation purposes, then that would be fine. Of course, the problem is that it often isn't. The ideal would be if these modalities were more strictly regulated, but as it is, about all that people can't do is to make strict medical claims for them. Anyone who is actually an LMT does have to take at least one to two thousand hours of classes, pass an exam, and be licensed through the state. That's what I had to do. I also have to take continuing ed, and I had to take more classes to get certification in neuromuscular therapy at a very basic level. If I wanted anything higher, I would have to take a LOT more classes, because that's a much more serious modality and is definitely evidence-based. (It particularly can make a huge difference with back pain.) I'm not sure, though, if someone can set themselves up as a Reiki practitioner without going through all of this. My guess is that yes, they probably can do it.

[Nursedan]

Well I'm not in a position to tell you what to do, but I will say that you can't have it both ways. You can't desire to support her and also desire for her to not bilk people out if money. That would be a contradiction.

[Resume]

Doesn't Dr. Oz's wife claim to be a "reiki master?"

Explains a lot, don't you think?

[Baby Nemesis]

If she herself goes to the doctor when she's ill rather than getting someone to do reiki on her, how likely is it really that she'll be irresponsible towards others?

Perhaps you could have a conversation with her where you seek reassurance from her that though she might be providing therapy in that people will become relaxed in the sessions so they'll leave feeling uplifted, she would in fact advise them to go to a doctor if they were ill. You can perhaps be supportive of her wish to pamper and de-stress people, while seeking reassurance that if they tell her there's something medically wrong with them, she will advise them to go to a doctor.
I know someone who trained in Reiki, but I can't imagine them doing anything irresponsible like thinking it could ever be a substitute for medical treatment or psychological therapy. Maybe others are different though.

[MarkCorrigan]

I find it odd that you would even consider supporting her in this. She's conning people out of money and possibly having them come to her instead of a real doctor.

[Baby Nemesis]

How much is she planning to charge, Bumlet5? Is it more than the price of a relaxation session is worth?

It seems there are plus points to Reiki, in that some people might feel it's valuable as a de-stressing/relaxation tool. You could maybe emphasise Its value as one of those in your conversation with her. However, if she's planning to take it further and make people think it's more powerful than it is, concerns about those particular aspects can be expressed, and she should understand them if she herself goes to the doctor when she's ill. I might be totally wrong, but I don't see why this disagreement should lead to a conflict. Why would she promote something she wouldn't do herself, i.e. Reiki as a means of healing something she'd seek medical treatment for if it happened to her?

[gerg]

Originally Posted by bumlet5

One of my best friends is a firm believer in woo, and I have been ok with it so far. She doesn't spend a ton of money on woo-related products, and if something goes seriously wrong she does what needs to be done.

My current issue is that she is considered a Reiki Master (from way before knew her), and wants to open a 'practice'. I am usually supportive of my friends beliefs so long as they don't effect themselves or others detrimentally and they know where I stand on those topics, but I am torn here. I don't like the idea of her taking money and trying to 'heal' people who could potentially be very sick, but I want to be supportive of her life choices as a friend. This is a fine line I'm treading and am wondering if anyone else has had problems like this. I would appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks.

So you'll be changing from a supportive friend to an interfering skeptical friend. I can see how that works...not

[Resume]

Originally Posted by gerg

So you'll be changing from a supportive friend to an interfering skeptical friend. I can see how that works...not

Yes yes, what friend wouldn't support a friend in fraud?

[bumlet5]

Originally Posted by gerg

So you'll be changing from a supportive friend to an interfering skeptical friend. I can see how that works...not

So you see my dilemma.

[gerg]

Originally Posted by bumlet5

So you see my dilemma.

No but I can see how you've made it a dilemma. It's all your own making. What you are doing is imagining things that are not there like "taking money" and "very sick" and forcing this onto your "friend". No different than say a catholic priest scolding a sinner for perceived "wrongdoings". Remember Skepticism is merely the attitude of doubt. If you feel that nobody can be trusted, then keep your allegiance to skepticism, and enjoy its attitude of self-reinforced doubt.

[Apathia]

Originally Posted by Baby Nemesis

I know someone who trained in Reiki, but I can't imagine them doing anything irresponsible like thinking it could ever be a substitute for medical treatment or psychological therapy. Maybe others are different though.

I'd like to add to what Baby Nemesis says here.
I know Reiki people and masters who as a a matter of what they consider good Reiki practice and ethics, do not offer Reiki sessions as a substitute for medical attention or tell people that with Reiki they can throw away their meds.

But then I also know Reiki practitioners who claim Reiki is better than any doctor's attention.

And then those in between who want you to seek medical attention but mean by that some Naturopathic doctor.

Reiki carries a lot of woo baggage and people buy into wild claims of it's efficacy because a typical session of it relives a lot of stress and pain, and for some is an almost mystical experience.

Anyway, here's your opportunity to explore with your friend just how far and what she buys into it.
And I feel you should be honest with her about your misgivings around it.

Apart from the claims, it's mostly harmless, except many people find it transgresses their personal boundaries. It involves an intensity of touch contact or intimate proximity that our species has downplayed with verbal/audio language as our mode of interaction.

Or at least that's what I found practicing it as a Reiki master. I was very good and people were both impressed and spooked.

I do nothing with it now.
Good walls make good neighbors.
Intimate touch, even though not sexual, is for the context of one's family and intimates.

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Maia

I'm a licensed massage therapist, and there's unfortunately a lot of this silliness mixed in with useful, evidence-based, therapeutic massage. (Has your friend told you yet about how Reiki Masters can go back in time and heal sicknesses from past lives? Well, she probably will, given any encouragement...)

It's a dilemma. Personally, I'm an out skeptic to everyone and with some people we avoid certain topics. I can't say I've lost of friend but I've pushed people to say ridiculous things in the heat of a discussion and ended it there. No one has changed their beliefs because of me. I've been accused of talking like a lawyer but I see no shame in that.

I truly am suffering lower back pain today? Any legitimate means of relief

[Senex]

Originally Posted by Resume

Doesn't Dr. Oz's wife claim to be a "reiki master?"

Explains a lot, don't you think?

This clip is clear demonstration he is a woo.

He can claim the million prize if he can sit behind a sheet and tell after dozens of people walk by which one was his wife. He says he can feel her reiki energy "heat" when she walks by. Let's see the woo prove it.

It should be easy enough to prove. He sits with his back to a sheet and people who don't no anything about reiki walk bt except his wife and he states when his wife and her "heat" walk by.

Simple.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Senex

This clip is clear demonstration he is a woo.

He can claim the million prize if he can sit behind a sheet and tell after dozens of people walk by which one was his wife. He says he can feel her reiki energy "heat" when she walks by. Let's see the woo prove it.

It should be easy enough to prove. He sits with his back to a sheet and people who don't no anything about reiki walk bt except his wife and he states when his wife and her "heat" walk by.

Simple.

Yes, he can prove it and give the mildo to any medical charity of his choice.

[Soapy Sam]

What Maia said, basically. I have known at least one Reiki "master" capable of recognising the more common musculoskeletal problems - fallen arches, plantar fascitis, arthritis - who will send patients to physios or doctors, but it's far too easy for anyone (at least in the UK) to set up as a Reiki "therapist". Some don't even bother taking the Reiki courses. I'm unsure if that makes them less dishonest, or more.
There are certainly many who genuinely believe they are doing good- but beyond a little destressing, it's hard to see what.

[bumlet5]

Originally Posted by gerg

No but I can see how you've made it a dilemma. It's all your own making. What you are doing is imagining things that are not there like "taking money" and "very sick" and forcing this onto your "friend". No different than say a catholic priest scolding a sinner for perceived "wrongdoings". Remember Skepticism is merely the attitude of doubt. If you feel that nobody can be trusted, then keep your allegiance to skepticism, and enjoy its attitude of self-reinforced doubt.

That's not exactly fair, is it?

Part of a business is "taking money" in exchange for a service, is it not? How is that imagined? If she gets a client who has arthritis and doesn't know it, but keeps coming in to her to get their knee healed in exchange for being paid, how can I (as a moral person) support that?

Like I said, I don't care if she believes she can do it in her own mind, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof. I will be a friend and be supportive of her personal beliefs, so long as she understands my stance on it. Its when she starts using that belief to exploit people out of their money that I begin to have an issue with it.

[Sledge]

Ignore gerg. He's just a bitter woo.

[Jekyll's Guest]

You either follow your morals and lose a friend, or keep your mouth shut and die a little inside every time she opens her mouth about woo.

As someone who married in to a very religious family (several of whom are big in to lots of unrelated woo also), I have to do the latter regularly.

That's family though, I don't have a friend I want to keep enough to swallow such garbage.

There's the added benefit of you not needing to end the friendship, I'm pretty sure you just voicing your criticism of her hobby will be enough to have her storm off.

[Baby Nemesis]

Originally Posted by bumlet5

That's not exactly fair, is it?

Part of a business is "taking money" in exchange for a service, is it not? How is that imagined? If she gets a client who has arthritis and doesn't know it, but keeps coming in to her to get their knee healed in exchange for being paid, how can I (as a moral person) support that?

Like I said, I don't care if she believes she can do it in her own mind, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof. I will be a friend and be supportive of her personal beliefs, so long as she understands my stance on it. Its when she starts using that belief to exploit people out of their money that I begin to have an issue with it.

What exactly does being supportive of a person's beliefs as long as they understand your stance on it mean? Not showing them any evidence that contradicts their beliefs? Not expressing any reservations at all? Showing them evidence their beliefs are wrong but at the end of the day wishing to uphold their right to believe what they want in the face of evidence if they choose to do so? Or what?

If either of the former two things, how can you be supportive of a belief you're convinced is wrong? If she believes it's right, why should she believe it's fraud or exploitation to take money from others? Naturally you won't convince her while at the same time giving the impression you think her belief is justified. How can it be logical to support someone in a belief you know to be wrong but then object when they only do what is one of the logical outworkings of that belief? This is a self-made dilemma. It's because your stances are contradictory. Or at least that's the way it seems from what you just said, if you did mean you're hesitant to show her evidence that conflicts with her beliefs or give her any reason to doubt them. Perhaps you could clarify if that isn't correct. But if it is, no wonder you don't know how to object to her practising on others if you take a stance of supporting the belief that prompts her to do that, even though you're quietly sure it's wrong.

If she thinks she's going to be healing people of physical ailments, then you could try to sow a few seeds of doubt in her mind by showing her some evidence that Reiki isn't effective in doing that. You don't have to be combative; you could surely simply put it to her as a "What if" dilemma, this kind of thing: "What if it turns out that some people who come to you really need medical treatment? Would you advise they see a doctor as well as coming to you?" "What if Raiki doesn't do everything you think it does? I found something on the Internet the other day ...". That kind of thing.

[Jekyll's Guest]

Originally Posted by Baby Nemesis

If she thinks she's going to be healing people of physical ailments, then you could try to sow a few seeds of doubt in her mind by showing her some evidence that Reiki isn't effective in doing that. You don't have to be combative; you could surely simply put it to her as a "What if" dilemma, this kind of thing: "What if it turns out that some people who come to you really need medical treatment? Would you advise they see a doctor as well as coming to you?" "What if Raiki doesn't do everything you think it does? I found something on the Internet the other day ...". That kind of thing.

How many Woo's, committed enough to become a practitioner of their brand of wooishness, have ever been shown the light of reason and come back from the dark side?

She's not an old lady paying for a cat psychic, she's Reiki MASTER. Who gives up superpowers once they've been told they have them?

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

How many Woo's, committed enough to become a practitioner of their brand of wooishness, have ever been shown the light of reason and come back from the dark side?

She's not an old lady paying for a cat psychic, she's Reiki MASTER. Who gives up superpowers once they've been told they have them?

HTF does one become a Reiki Master anyway?

[Jekyll's Guest]

Originally Posted by Resume

HTF does one become a Reiki Master anyway?

You pay X amount of money to an existing master, and they say "you are now a Reiki master".

[bumlet5]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

You pay X amount of money to an existing master, and they say "you are now a Reiki master".

She also went through about 4 years of 'classes' to be able to 'channel her energies'.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

You pay X amount of money to an existing master, and they say "you are now a Reiki master".

Well it's all good then. Hang out your shingle and give medical advice without having to take all them pesky med classes. Noice!

[Resume]

Originally Posted by bumlet5

She also went through about 4 years of 'classes' to be able to 'channel her energies'.

What exactly did those "classes" entail? Channeling "energy" seems a bit vague.

[Ocelot]

Originally Posted by Resume

HTF does one become a Reiki Master anyway?

Take a two day course: $650.00 with a $200.00 non-refundable deposit

Assuming of course that you already have Advanced Reiki Training (also two days $225.00 with a $75.00) Which in turn means taking Reiki I and II (which blow me down with a feather is also a two days course costing $350.00 with a $150.00)

If that sounds like a lot of money fear not. After the first two courses you can start building your practice, after the third course you can deliver training and grant other people similar magical powers. Apparently it's best to charge money as the clients prefer it if you charge

It can be fun to spot similarities between Reiki teaching practices and pyramid schemes. Audience participation in such sport can add greatly to the edutainment.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Ocelot

Take a two day course: $650.00 with a $200.00 non-refundable deposit

Assuming of course that you already have Advanced Reiki Training (also two days $225.00 with a $75.00) Which in turn means taking Reiki I and II (which blow me down with a feather is also a two days course costing $350.00 with a $150.00)

If that sounds like a lot of money fear not. After the first two courses you can start building your practice, after the third course you can deliver training and grant other people similar magical powers. Apparently it's best to charge money as the clients prefer it if you charge

It can be fun to spot similarities between Reiki teaching practices and pyramid schemes. Audience participation in such sport can add greatly to the edutainment.

Funny, yet reprehensible all at the same time.

[fishbait]

Originally Posted by Ocelot

Take a two day course: $650.00 with a $200.00 non-refundable deposit

Assuming of course that you already have Advanced Reiki Training (also two days $225.00 with a $75.00) Which in turn means taking Reiki I and II (which blow me down with a feather is also a two days course costing $350.00 with a $150.00)

If that sounds like a lot of money fear not. After the first two courses you can start building your practice, after the third course you can deliver training and grant other people similar magical powers. Apparently it's best to charge money as the clients prefer it if you charge

It can be fun to spot similarities between Reiki teaching practices and pyramid schemes. Audience participation in such sport can add greatly to the edutainment.

Thus they Reiki in the money!

[Jekyll's Guest]

Well, pyramids have magical healing properties, surely the same goes for pyramid schemes?

[Jekyll's Guest]

So, according to Ocelot, not only did your friend get scammed in to thinking she gained magical powers, she was scammed harder and longer than the regular saps.

That's impressive stuff.

Is there a fool Olympics?

[Baby Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

How many Woo's, committed enough to become a practitioner of their brand of wooishness, have ever been shown the light of reason and come back from the dark side?

She's not an old lady paying for a cat psychic, she's Reiki MASTER. Who gives up superpowers once they've been told they have them?

I wouldn't know. But I'd assume it depends partly whether she's more committed to promoting herself as a wonder-worker or to caring for others. If the latter, she'll surely heed the concerns about whether her activities might inhibit people from seeking the medical treatment they need. If the former, probably not. That's just a guess, since I haven't had much experience with such people. But I'm sure many must put the people they're caring for first.

[gerg]

Originally Posted by bumlet5

That's not exactly fair, is it?

Well sometimes in life the truth can hurt or appear unfair but you'll thank me later.

Originally Posted by bumlet5

Part of a business is "taking money" in exchange for a service, is it not?

Forget the literal meaning of the words, it's the inference I'm looking at Bumlet

Originally Posted by bumlet5

If she gets a client who has arthritis and doesn't know it, but keeps coming in to her to get their knee healed in exchange for being paid, how can I (as a moral person) support that?

Again you are solely conjouring up thoughts of what might happen when in reality it's not something that is happenning. It's a negative outlook.

Originally Posted by bumlet5

Like I said, I don't care if she believes she can do it in her own mind, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof.

forgive my snicker..

[rjh01]

Choose your battles. Things to consider (in no order)
1. If you lose your friend over this, will she be handicapped in giving Reiki?
2. Can you realistically make her change her mind?
3. How much harm is she actually doing?
4. How much is this friendship worth?
5. If you keep this friendship how much extra stress will it give you?
6. Can you influence what she does, either short or long term?
7. How much is this friendship worth to you?

[Miss_Kitt]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

How many Woo's, committed enough to become a practitioner of their brand of wooishness, have ever been shown the light of reason and come back from the dark side?

She's not an old lady paying for a cat psychic, she's Reiki MASTER. Who gives up superpowers once they've been told they have them?

I never was certified as a Reiki Master, but I was a dowser and what would today be called something like a "Healing Sensitive" when I was (much) younger. I was not so much "shown the light of reason" as encouraged to shine that light onto my personal so-called gifts and abilities.

What do you know? My ability to find hidden objects vanished when there wasn't a person who had seen them hidden in the room! It only took three trials to convince me that I had been indulging in some kind of self-deception--once I actually decided that I needed to really test it.

The energy/healing sensitivity did not require that direct a test, as reading a few issues of Skeptical Inquirer where such things were being discussed was enough to make me abashedly abandon my efforts. (I do still give a great backrub, though.)

This Forum and the JREF / skeptic community per se is full of former practitioners and/or believers who have realized they were mistaken. It's a humbling process, but one whose integrity you should admire, instead of assuming that ignorance is the same as stupidity or avarice.

Just my thoughts, Miss_Kitt

[Jekyll's Guest]

Originally Posted by Miss_Kitt

This Forum and the JREF / skeptic community per se is full of former practitioners and/or believers who have realized they were mistaken. It's a humbling process, but one whose integrity you should admire, instead of assuming that ignorance is the same as stupidity or avarice.

Again, show me a master/preacher/cosmic messiah who dropped their woo.

I'm well aware that all manner of people come to their senses about woo every day. I was an ardent believer in ghosts myself until I was clued in to vivid/waking dreams and never looked back.

If you are leading/teaching woo, rather than just participating, you are either desperate/mentally ill, in which case no amount of evidence will penetrate, or you know it's crap but are bilking people. I feel no need to use kid gloves on either.

This is not someone telling their friends to go see Madame Zelda the fortune teller, this is someone who spend 2 years, and I assume a lot of money, learning to do new age faith healing. She may be a lovely woman in every other aspect, but her woo will be impervious to all logic.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

[openingmind]

Bumlet5, a significantly friendly gesture I think would be to ask her about her "professional" ethics. I put professional in quotations because Reiki practitioners are not licensed.

I doubt you could cause bad blood by encouraging her, at the very least, never to diagnose, prescribe, or treat. Aside from the issue of deceiving or bilking people, she could potentially get into legal trouble if she does any of those things (diagnose, prescribe, or treat).

A friend would encourage another friend to operate only within the scope of their practice. What's the scope of a Reiki practice? I don't know exactly. If I were her, I would claim nothing more than to be facilitating stress reduction and relaxation (which are clinically proven to have beneficial effects on the body). Does that mean her doing Reiki is causing the beneficial effects, or even relaxation? No. Certainly it is relaxing to have a person lay their warm hands on you...

Personally I struggle with whether or not to forcibly wake up my family and friends too. For instance, I was raised Mormon until I was 12 or so. Half of my family is still practicing. There's loads of evidence that the events of the Book of Mormon never happened. But, I hold my tongue. Why? Well, they don't push it on me. They don't even express their "concern" anymore. They're politically and socially openminded. They're satisfied that I'm a good person. And I think they're decent people too. They happen to believe in a piece of fiction. They give 10% of their income to the church, which I could say is foolish, but they also benefit: their children play sports for free at the church, they're able to purchase deeply discounted food from church stores, etc. The Mormon church has its hand in politics and I don't like that. But I could go on and on...

I agree with what's been said about it being critical that she refer anyone with a serious illness to a licensed medical professional, including anyone who thinks they might be seriously mentally disturbed.

At the very least you could have a conversation with her about her intake protocols, the fact that she's not legally allowed to diagnose, prescribe, or treat, and -- in reference to that last part -- how she plans to advertise or describe what she is providing as a service. As far as I know, there's no law against charging another person to help them relax.

Depending on how you approach her, I don't think she should feel threatened or unsupported by that conversation. You would be supporting her, by reminding her what she can and cannot legally represent herself as being able to do.

[Apathia]

Originally Posted by Jekyll's Guest

Again, show me a master/preacher/cosmic messiah who dropped their woo.

I'm well aware that all manner of people come to their senses about woo every day. I was an ardent believer in ghosts myself until I was clued in to vivid/waking dreams and never looked back.

If you are leading/teaching woo, rather than just participating, you are either desperate/mentally ill, in which case no amount of evidence will penetrate, or you know it's crap but are bilking people. I feel no need to use kid gloves on either.

This is not someone telling their friends to go see Madame Zelda the fortune teller, this is someone who spend 2 years, and I assume a lot of money, learning to do new age faith healing. She may be a lovely woman in every other aspect, but her woo will be impervious to all logic.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see"

Uh, pardon me.
I'm someone who devoted a lot of time and money into "energy healing" including Reiki of which I did master level training.
I never used it to bilk people or tell them they didn't need proper medical attention.
I quit it because of the woo-woo baggage, the unsubstantiated claims, the money racket associated with Reiki, and the feedback I got from people that they felt their personal space was violated.
When I was a believer in the efficacy of energy balancing, I was not mentally ill, just a bit deluded, as my species tends to get with many different kinds of beliefs.

But of course I wasn't a big name faith healer. And it is indeed rare that those who have made a public career of it are able to let go of the show.
Also I wasn't a "Master" in the sense of having years of practice and learning.
Mostly these days, "master" in Reiki, simply means one has been initiated into the use of the master Reiki symbols.
So. it's not that unusual for a Reiki "master" to at some point for varying reasons just drop the stuff.

When I encounter a massage therapist who uses Reiki in her practice, I don't level the whole huckster accusation at her. Instead I talk about what it is and what it isn't. And the placebo effect. relaxation response, and how it can temporarily relieve some symptoms but is not a cure.

But of course there are people exactly as you describe.
I have an xgf who is challenged that way in both mind and character.
She took offense at me for no longer believing energy healing was the true path. And then the "fairies" told her to break up with me.

Yeah, I thought I had a special healing power.
I was merely good at relaxing frontal cortexs, so to speak.
I could have been Rasputin, but I had a conscience.

[Rasmus]

Originally Posted by bumlet5

Like I said, I don't care if she believes she can do it in her own mind, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof. I will be a friend and be supportive of her personal beliefs, so long as she understands my stance on it. Its when she starts using that belief to exploit people out of their money that I begin to have an issue with it.

So you've discovered that you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

How can you "support her beliefs" and then be surprised when she acts as if what she believes to be true was actually .. .well ... true?

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by Resume

Yes yes, what friend wouldn't support a friend in fraud?

Remember, friends help you move, real friends help you move bodies. So the question is, are you this persons real friend or not?