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Old 3rd June 2010, 04:10 PM   #1
CplFerro
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How long until the green swastika?

I saw this in a film years ago, either Death Race 2000 or Woody Allen's Sleeper, where in the sufficiently far future, the swastika has been rendered meaningless enough for some hip fellow to wear it on his chest white on green, or green on white, or whatever. Do you think this will ever happen, and, if so, when?
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Old 3rd June 2010, 04:17 PM   #2
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i don't get it.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 05:41 PM   #3
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If you mean, "Is there a foreseeable time when the swastika will no longer be viewed in the Western world as a Nazi symbol?", I don't know. I doubt it.
The swastika, of course, is an ancient symbol used in different cultures throughout history. The original insignia of the US Nat. Guard 45th Infantry Div. was a swastika prior to WWII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
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Old 3rd June 2010, 05:48 PM   #4
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It will probably happen after enough time has passed. You could wear a picture of Atilla the Hun on your T-shirt and not offend any of his victims.

There are still living people who remember WW2 right now thoiugh. You may want to wait a while before slipping on that armband.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 06:01 PM   #5
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Reminds me of David Mitchell's take on why we find the phrase "Rape and Pillage" funny.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

In the video, he surmises WWII will go hilarious in around 2090.

As he points out, there have been many seriously horrific acts throughout history that we now see as good for a cheap laugh. Vikings raids, as a good example. The crusades, oddly enough aren't completely fair game yet, I'd say largely because the tensions between the Western world and the Islamic world still exist. And while you can make jokes about American slavery, you can't do it with impunity... yet.

EDIT:
The YouTube was originally the wrong link, it's fixed now!
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Last edited by Cavemonster; 3rd June 2010 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 06:06 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Reminds me of David Mitchell's take on why we find the phrase "Rape and Pillage" funny.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

In the video, he surmises WWII will go hilarious in around 2090...




This video is not longer available due to copyright claim
by John Giglio.


Bummer.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 06:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Reminds me of David Mitchell's take on why we find the phrase "Rape and Pillage" funny.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

In the video, he surmises WWII will go hilarious in around 2090.

As he points out, there have been many seriously horrific acts throughout history that we now see as good for a cheap laugh. Vikings raids, as a good example. The crusades, oddly enough aren't completely fair game yet, I'd say largely because the tensions between the Western world and the Islamic world still exist. And while you can make jokes about American slavery, you can't do it with impunity... yet.
One reason why Viking raids of plunder hit the funny bone is that the land of the Vikings looks nothing like what it once did and the people are so different. They still have the blond hair and blue eyes, but other than that, you would be very hard pressed to locate the echo of long ships in Norway (unless you locate a museum...)

The Crusades still have strong elements present in the here and now such as religious cracks on both sides who have no compunction in raising conflict for religious cause.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 06:22 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Fnord View Post




This video is not longer available due to copyright claim
by John Giglio.


Bummer.
Sorry, messed up the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJqEKYbh-LU
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Old 3rd June 2010, 06:51 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Sword_Of_Truth View Post
It will probably happen after enough time has passed. You could wear a picture of Atilla the Hun on your T-shirt and not offend any of his victims.
Well, after enough time has passed, all his victims will be as dead as he is. Nowadays you could erect monuments in his honor, and not offend any of his victims.

A much more recent (and therefore probably much more interesting) case would be wearing a picture of Che Guevara on your t-shirt.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 07:04 PM   #10
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In Sleeper, a fellow comes to a party with a large swastika on his chest, and nobody comments on it. (In the same movie, people -do- recognize the term "mulatto", which I would have expected to fade from memory far faster. At least, I didn't know what it meant until university, and every kid recognizes a swastika.)
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Old 4th June 2010, 03:28 AM   #11
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At least one more generation. Thirty more years sees the death of any WW2 child old enough to remember much. But for the ensuing generations there's the matter of TV and movie "memory".

About six weeks ago in Heathrow I saw a bloke in a leather jacket bearing what looked remarkably like the Nazi Eagle with swastika in it's talons. Others had also noticed. He was getting some very unfriendly stares, even from people a lot younger than me. I wasn't close enough to see it for sure, but I admit it got my attention and it raised my blood pressure. Even if a coincidence, it was a bloody stupid design.
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Old 4th June 2010, 05:06 AM   #12
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This seems linked a thought I have had about the cultural detritus that has been building up since the advent of photography and motion pictures.

Going through humanity's time line there have been many ways of storing ideas and data but up until the advent of the previously mentioned modes this data has been relatively incomplete.

As a consequence of this the connotation of hijacked symbols like the swastika will likely last longer as the ideas are passed in a more complete manner to following generations.

Last edited by Greyman; 4th June 2010 at 05:08 AM. Reason: i not think so good without sleep
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Old 4th June 2010, 06:38 AM   #13
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And of course as soon as we start to forget it those aliens will beam it right back to us.


(For those confused this is a reference to Contact. For those still confused I recommend a nice lie down and perhaps a hot cup of Bovril.)
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Old 4th June 2010, 06:39 AM   #14
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Nazi-themed bar in Seoul:
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazi...a.trouble.html

Taylor Swift with swastika buddy:
http://ll-media.tmz.com/2009/10/29/1...swastika-1.jpg


As for myself, we used to run around fighting with guys who wore swastikas, but they were genuine Neo-Nazis. In a fashion sense, I've only ever seen it worn once, by a spanish woman in Toronto who had a small gold swastika necklace. I had words with her and her boyfriend (probably harsher words than needed to be had, but I was young and mostly retarded.)
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Old 4th June 2010, 07:01 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Greyman View Post
This seems linked a thought I have had about the cultural detritus that has been building up since the advent of photography and motion pictures.

Going through humanity's time line there have been many ways of storing ideas and data but up until the advent of the previously mentioned modes this data has been relatively incomplete.

As a consequence of this the connotation of hijacked symbols like the swastika will likely last longer as the ideas are passed in a more complete manner to following generations.
I agree. We'll be seeing those pics of the bodies in the concentration camp ovens FOREVER. Bad thing?
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Old 4th June 2010, 07:12 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I agree. We'll be seeing those pics of the bodies in the concentration camp ovens FOREVER. Bad thing?
In itself of course not.

But insofar as it forever associates a many thousand year-old symbol of good luck with one decade of inhumanity?
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Old 4th June 2010, 08:59 AM   #17
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Everything becomes funny eventually:

http://pacojonnes.files.wordpress.co...waterslide.jpg
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Old 4th June 2010, 09:21 AM   #18
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Usually that take 23.8 years for something to get funny and be able to joked at.
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Old 4th June 2010, 11:43 AM   #19
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I think pirates is another good example to go with vikings. We even have an unofficial "Talk like a pirate day" "holiday" in America. In books and movies, pirates are the protagonists more often than not. In Florida every year, for Gasperilla, people dress up like pirates, build floats that look like pirate ships, etc.

Granted, pirates do still exist, but I think people make a distinction between the pirates of today, like those in Somalia, and the more "traditional" pirates of old. The older classification of pirates being highly romanticized.

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Old 4th June 2010, 11:48 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Debaser View Post
In itself of course not.

But insofar as it forever associates a many thousand year-old symbol of good luck with one decade of inhumanity?
It might not be fair, but It is going to be a couple of hundred years before the Swatiska is not associated almost automatically with Nazi Germany.
A few attempts have been made by some groups to "reclaim" the Swastika as a Hindu Good luck symbol but without sucess.
Same thing with the Burning Cross, which originally was simply a message for the members of a Scottish Clan to gather to defend the Clan's land. Almost all Scottish groups have given it up as being too corrupted and to easily misunderstood.
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Old 4th June 2010, 11:52 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Usually that take 23.8 years for something to get funny and be able to joked at.
I think the opposite! how long after a celebrity tragedy. does it take before the jokes come out.
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Old 4th June 2010, 11:59 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Usually that take 23.8 years for something to get funny and be able to joked at.
I don't think we're talking about something being able to be subject to humor.

Jokes at the expense of Nazis came out right away, see Chaplin's movie, The Great Dictator.

Look to that horrible ventrolquist Dunham's immensely popular character "Achmed the dead terrorist" gaining huge popularity not too many years after 9-11.

What we're waiting for is not just for jokes around the subject matter to be okay, but for a real disassociation.
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Old 4th June 2010, 12:10 PM   #23
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When retirement homes start filling up with WWII grandchildren (my generation), we'll see the first such uses that aren't decried by "everyone", and is available in ordinary stores.
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Old 4th June 2010, 02:13 PM   #24
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I have a T-shirt with the East German flag on it and the letters D.D.R. Naturally ,of course anyone under 25 who sees it associates it with computer memory.

I don't mind ironically celebrating a brutal police state*, though I would draw the line at a swastika.

* - Apparently they had no crime and lovely warm houses so it can't have been all bad.
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Old 4th June 2010, 02:20 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
I have a T-shirt with the East German flag on it and the letters D.D.R. Naturally ,of course anyone under 25 who sees it associates it with computer memory.
I'm 29 and I associate it with Dance Dance Revolution.
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Old 4th June 2010, 02:25 PM   #26
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but hey, it's funny to think of WW1 trenches trying to get biplanes ready when A-10s come in for a broadside attack.
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Old 4th June 2010, 02:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
but hey, it's funny to think of WW1 trenches trying to get biplanes ready when A-10s come in for a broadside attack.
Wow, you have reading way too much Harry Turtledove lately....
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Old 4th June 2010, 11:25 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, you have reading way too much Harry Turtledove lately ever....
Fixed it for you.

Guns of the South was enough pap for me.
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Old 5th June 2010, 12:11 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, you have reading way too much Harry Turtledove lately....
I was thinking more of S M Stirling, where in his Drakaverse's WW2, the Draka have Abrams tanks.
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Old 5th June 2010, 12:35 AM   #30
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To all who took my comment on taking 23.8 years to be able to joke on something "seriously".... I guess you never watched the"south park" show .
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Old 5th June 2010, 05:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
To all who took my comment on taking 23.8 years to be able to joke on something "seriously".... I guess you never watched the"south park" show .
With South Park all jokes are ON! Nothing is safe bad taste!
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Old 5th June 2010, 05:50 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Reminds me of David Mitchell's take on why we find the phrase "Rape and Pillage" funny.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

In the video, he surmises WWII will go hilarious in around 2090.

As he points out, there have been many seriously horrific acts throughout history that we now see as good for a cheap laugh. Vikings raids, as a good example. The crusades, oddly enough aren't completely fair game yet, I'd say largely because the tensions between the Western world and the Islamic world still exist. And while you can make jokes about American slavery, you can't do it with impunity... yet.

EDIT:
The YouTube was originally the wrong link, it's fixed now!
How about that Ghengis Khan though?
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Old 5th June 2010, 01:19 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It might not be fair, but It is going to be a couple of hundred years before the Swatiska is not associated almost automatically with Nazi Germany.
A few attempts have been made by some groups to "reclaim" the Swastika as a Hindu Good luck symbol but without sucess.
Same thing with the Burning Cross, which originally was simply a message for the members of a Scottish Clan to gather to defend the Clan's land. Almost all Scottish groups have given it up as being too corrupted and to easily misunderstood.
Considering the fact that I saw the swastika in the middle of San Fransico and on a few cartoons I would say the Hindu groups have met with some sucess. Mind you the only reason why I knew it was that context was that it was plastered on a Hindu temple.
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Old 6th June 2010, 11:01 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by KingMerv00 View Post
Everything becomes funny eventually:

http://pacojonnes.files.wordpress.co...waterslide.jpg
Wow, that's really tasteless.
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Old 6th June 2010, 11:06 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Sorry, messed up the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJqEKYbh-LU
Not to highjack my own thread, but I found the funniest parts of that sketch were the ads for Bulldog products. Buy your manly lipstick today--it's got an aggressive bulldog on the cover!
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Old 6th June 2010, 12:06 PM   #36
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Sleeper:

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Swastika at 6:46.

Death Race 2000:

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Matilda the Hun (and Herman the German) at 4:00
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Old 6th June 2010, 01:37 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It might not be fair, but It is going to be a couple of hundred years before the Swatiska is not associated almost automatically with Nazi Germany.
A few attempts have been made by some groups to "reclaim" the Swastika as a Hindu Good luck symbol but without sucess.
Same thing with the Burning Cross, which originally was simply a message for the members of a Scottish Clan to gather to defend the Clan's land. Almost all Scottish groups have given it up as being too corrupted and to easily misunderstood.
I think one can still see swastikas in Hindu temples in India, which were there long before the war and will no doubt continue on long after the war is just history. Likewise in Scotland, the symbol of a clansman carrying a fiery cross to the top of a hill still resonates within its cultural backdrop without more unfortunate associations. However, I can see the difficulties of any atempt to do likewise in the US.

In a European or US setting the swastika will take a long time to lose the stigma it gathered between 33 to 45.
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Old 7th June 2010, 11:34 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Nosi View Post
One reason why Viking raids of plunder hit the funny bone is that the land of the Vikings looks nothing like what it once did and the people are so different. They still have the blond hair and blue eyes, but other than that, you would be very hard pressed to locate the echo of long ships in Norway (unless you locate a museum...)
As a somewhat irrelevant note, this reminded me of a quote by Robert E. Howard: "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing".
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Old 7th June 2010, 01:06 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by KingMerv00 View Post
Everything becomes funny eventually:

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More than merely funny.

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Old 7th June 2010, 01:27 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
but hey, it's funny to think of WW1 trenches trying to get biplanes ready when A-10s come in for a broadside attack.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, you have reading way too much Harry Turtledove lately....
Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
I was thinking more of S M Stirling, where in his Drakaverse's WW2, the Draka have Abrams tanks.

There was an Analog Magazine story back in the '60s about a jet fighter which found itself in WWI Europe. (Sorry, can't remember author or title.) Problems to solve. Plane was too fast to maneuver in combat with WWI airframes. Weaponry wouldn't target well on them. Supply officer couldn't explain why he needed 1000 gallons of lamp oil.
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