Cancer death puts homeopathy in dock

Mojo · 10th June 2010, 05:01 AM

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225877659069

Quote:

A homeopath told a patient with rectal cancer to avoid mainstream medicine because alternative treatment alone could cure her, an inquest was told.

The evidence given by her sister, as reported there, is astonishing.

See also: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...10/2923936.htm

McHrozni · 10th June 2010, 05:16 AM

Quote:

She said she had been told by one of the couple's close friends that the Dingles had a pact with the homeopath treating Dingle, Francine Scrayen.

Under the pact, they agreed that only alternative medicine would be used and Dr Dingle would then write a book about curing his wife's cancer.

Hm. I wonder if, under this pact, he could be forced to write a book titled: "How my homeopathic remedies killed a woman".

I'd buy it.

McHrozni

Rolfe · 10th June 2010, 05:20 AM

Appalling. However, like the baby with the eczema, we'll be told that this is a bizarre aberration of a maverick practitioner, and no responsible homoeopath would give such advice. Nobody will confront the fact that this is what they all believe and advise, it's just that most of them have sufficient common sense to abandon their principles if they encounter real, serious illness and confine themselves to "supporting the patient in a complementary role" and prescribing remedies to "alleviate the side-effects of chemotherapy".

The fact is that they all talk the talk. Very few of them may walk the walk all the way, but does that excuse the talk? Peter Fisher may deplore the homoeopaths who tell people to avoid anti-malarials and take homoeopathic prophylactics as well, but they're only following the logic of his own basic position.

Rolfe.

Mojo · 10th June 2010, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Peter Fisher may deplore the homoeopaths who tell people to avoid anti-malarials and take homoeopathic prophylactics as well, but they're only following the logic of his own basic position.

Indeed - how does he know the homoeopathic malaria prophylactics don't work?

Rolfe · 10th June 2010, 05:37 AM

I think he's spent his life carefully only dealing with the self-limiting, the chronic but non-life-threatening, and the worried well. He's comfortable that homoeopathy "works" within these parameters. He doesn't believe homoeopaths should step out of this comfort zone, but he has never analysed the reasons for this belief.

Rolfe.

commandlinegamer · 10th June 2010, 05:40 AM

From the second link above - "She had dozens of bottles of pills. She had to follow her homeopath's instructions exactly," she said."

Wonder if the coroner will question the homeopath as to the mechanism by which her treatment would cure cancer. I predict silence or obfuscation but am not willing to rule out batguano insanity as a reply.

Fnord · 10th June 2010, 06:05 AM

Homeopathy. Never. Works.

Worst. Idea. Ever.

Psi Baba · 10th June 2010, 07:03 AM

I really wish these alt-med nutters would be held accountable for this kind of stuff.

BTW, I am unfamiliar with the colloquialism "in dock." What exactly does that mean? Searching shows that it is widely used in British and Australian media, but I can't find an explanation of meaning of the phrase. The best match I can come up with would be "on the spot" or "on the hot seat" or "under fire." Is that even close?

Spiro · 10th June 2010, 07:10 AM

The dock is the walled podium in a UK court where the accused stands during their trial.

Psi Baba · 10th June 2010, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Spiro

The dock is the walled podium in a UK court where the accused stands during their trial.

Got it. Thanks. So, all of homeopathy is on trial? Cool.

Mark6 · 10th June 2010, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Psi Baba

Got it. Thanks. So, all of homeopathy is on trial? Cool.

You wish...

cassis · 10th June 2010, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Spiro

The dock is the walled podium in a UK court where the accused stands during their trial.

Although this may not have been the poster's intention, I took it to mean "into storage" or "to bed" or "put away" or "into port", i.e. to imply that the death cast enough doubt on homeopathy that it should be locked up and put away. I thought the poster had taken a little license with the phrase "in[to dry] dock". The quoted meaning is more accurate of course but given the topic, both ideas have merit, I would say.

Rolfe · 10th June 2010, 12:39 PM

"In the dock" is a standard figure of speech for "on trial", in the sense of standing accused of causing harm.

Don't you have docks in them furrin courts?

Rolfe.

Mojo · 10th June 2010, 12:41 PM

Something to do with "Admiralty Law".

Mojo · 10th June 2010, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by cassis

Although this may not have been the poster's intention, I took it to mean "into storage" or "to bed" or "put away" or "into port", i.e. to imply that the death cast enough doubt on homeopathy that it should be locked up and put away. I thought the poster had taken a little license with the phrase "in[to dry] dock". The quoted meaning is more accurate of course but given the topic, both ideas have merit, I would say.

I just used the headline of the story for the thread title. Headlines rarely have room for the definite article.

geni · 10th June 2010, 12:55 PM

So what type of homeopathy is Francine Scrayen? Multiple remedies is unusual. On the other hand all their web listingings are for homeapathy so not a case of a wondering quack.

shadron · 10th June 2010, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Multiple remedies is unusual. On the other hand all their web listingings are for homeapathy so not a case of a wondering quack.

...even when you can charge by the bottle? Was she by any chance providing the 'medicines'?

kmortis · 10th June 2010, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Homeopathy. Never. Works.

Worst. Idea. Ever.

That's not true, homeopathy can help in the alleviation of at least two diseases/conditions that I can think of off the top of my head.
Low blood sugar
Dehydration

Granted, you have to have to proper forumation of homeopathic solutions, solid pillules in the first case and a liquid remedy in the second, but I think you can see that both of these life-threatening cases could be satifactorily treated with a homeopathic remedy.

I am not a doctor and my words should not be taken as an endorsement of said treatments.

JoeTheJuggler · 10th June 2010, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Appalling. However, like the baby with the eczema, we'll be told that this is a bizarre aberration of a maverick practitioner, and no responsible homoeopath would give such advice.

And the savvy homeopathic practitioners will encourage you to get conventional medical treatment so that they can claim to have cured you despite the negative effects of "allopathy". (Or just lie and say that medical science could do nothing about the condition, but they improved markedly after they took the homeopathic--which just so happened to take place about the time you'd expect the conventional treatment to cause an improvement.)

JoeTheJuggler · 10th June 2010, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by kmortis

That's not true, homeopathy can help in the alleviation of at least two diseases/conditions that I can think of off the top of my head.
Low blood sugar
Dehydration

Granted, you have to have to proper forumation of homeopathic solutions, solid pillules in the first case and a liquid remedy in the second, but I think you can see that both of these life-threatening cases could be satifactorily treated with a homeopathic remedy.

And, to have any reasonable chance of helping with these conditions, you'd have to take the homeopathic remedy in doses far greater than are normally recommended by the homeopaths. (10 to 20 drops of water per day won't do much to alleviate dehydration.)

kmortis · 10th June 2010, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

And, to have any reasonable chance of helping with these conditions, you'd have to take the homeopathic remedy in doses far greater than are normally recommended by the homeopaths. (10 to 20 drops of water per day won't do much to alleviate dehydration.)

I never said it was a perfect cure.....

You're overthinking it a bit....

geni · 10th June 2010, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by shadron

...even when you can charge by the bottle? Was she by any chance providing the 'medicines'?

Well the building that is her postal adress is pretty new (it doesn't show up on google streetview).....

But seriously the charge for the remedies tends to be fairly low with the money being made up on consultation fees.

Mojo · 10th June 2010, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler

And the savvy homeopathic practitioners will encourage you to get conventional medical treatment so that they can claim to have cured you...

Under the microscope: Actress Olivia Newton John on breast cancer and her love for white toast

Quote:

I used homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga and meditation in conjunction with my chemotherapy to help me get stronger again after the cancer.

I also chanted with Buddhist friends and prayed with Christian friends. I covered all my bases.

Or, as the story is headlined elsewhere: "Olivia Newton John uses Homeopathy."

Daylightstar · 10th June 2010, 03:13 PM

She covered all her bases.

Which really means she had no faith in either one of them. Since most of these are faith based magical thinking, it's not going to work so well.
Sorry Olivia, enjoyed your movies. Rest in peace.

Oh wait, she got chemo as well.

Chris Haynes · 10th June 2010, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

"In the dock" is a standard figure of speech for "on trial", in the sense of standing accused of causing harm.

Don't you have docks in them furrin courts?

Rolfe.

No. The accused sits at a table next to their lawyer (the other lawyer and lawyer's client sits at a table on nearby). They do not have to stand, and if they do, it is just at the table.

Kumar · 10th June 2010, 07:22 PM

Odd outcome can be in any system. Few are accounted others may not.

kerikiwi · 10th June 2010, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

Odd outcome can be in any system. Few are accounted others may not.

This doesn't make sense.

Kumar · 10th June 2010, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

This doesn't make sense.

As this is not accounted;-

The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy
http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/

Filippo Lippi · 10th June 2010, 10:51 PM

I thought you were a sceptic now?

kerikiwi · 10th June 2010, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

As this is not accounted;-

The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy

No, the BBC has not. The woman is totally deluded.

Yuri Nalyssus · 10th June 2010, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

As this is not accounted;-

The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy
http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/

Not quite the same thing though, is it? Someone can believe they have cancer but be mistaken and appear then to be cured by a bogus treatment. It's a bit more difficult to be mistaken about whether or not you're dead.

Yuri

Kumar · 11th June 2010, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus

Not quite the same thing though, is it? Someone can believe they have cancer but be mistaken and appear then to be cured by a bogus treatment. It's a bit more difficult to be mistaken about whether or not you're dead.

Yuri

You can google other cases in favour of alternative systems. If a person is both sided, he is called a justified person otherwise biased or selfish.

kerikiwi · 11th June 2010, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

If a person is both sided, he is called a justified person otherwise biased or selfish.

By ' both sided' do you mean a person who accepts both real medicine(medicine supported by evidence that it actually works) and 'alternative' medicine?
That's not 'justified', that's something else.
If a person only accepts that which is supported by evidence, that's not biased and selfish, that's something else.

tuoni · 11th June 2010, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kumar

As this is not accounted;-

The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy
http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/

Has the fact that the link points to a website whose domain is "BAD SCIENCE" not given you a clue as to its validity?

quadraginta · 11th June 2010, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

"In the dock" is a standard figure of speech for "on trial", in the sense of standing accused of causing harm.

Don't you have docks in them furrin courts?

Rolfe.

I think (not sure) that a dedicated enclosure ("dock") for the defendant may have been a regular part of court furnishings in England when this phrase developed. Perhaps it still is.

The closest U.S. analogue would be the "witness stand", which doesn't carry the same opprobrium of being charged with a crime. U.S. defendants normally sit with their attorneys at a table in front of the judge, just like the prosecution team.

Eos of the Eons · 12th June 2010, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Daylightstar

She covered all her bases.

Which really means she had no faith in either one of them. Since most of these are faith based magical thinking, it's not going to work so well.
Sorry Olivia, enjoyed your movies. Rest in peace.

Oh wait, she got chemo as well.

She got chemo wayyyyyyyy too late, but I thought I read it was too late to even try chemo? *goes back to article*

No mention of chemo for dingle. None received. She only needed surgery at first, but waited too long, and then it was too widespread to do anything for her.

Schrodinger's Cat · 12th June 2010, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Appalling. However, like the baby with the eczema, we'll be told that this is a bizarre aberration of a maverick practitioner, and no responsible homoeopath would give such advice. Nobody will confront the fact that this is what they all believe and advise, it's just that most of them have sufficient common sense to abandon their principles if they encounter real, serious illness and confine themselves to "supporting the patient in a complementary role" and prescribing remedies to "alleviate the side-effects of chemotherapy".

The fact is that they all talk the talk. Very few of them may walk the walk all the way, but does that excuse the talk? Peter Fisher may deplore the homoeopaths who tell people to avoid anti-malarials and take homoeopathic prophylactics as well, but they're only following the logic of his own basic position.

Rolfe.

Just curious, would you consider medical marijuana given to people to alleviate the side effects of chemotherapy alternative medicine? Or, since it actually has been demonstrably effective and is often recommended by mainstream doctors, would you consider that conventional medicine?

Mojo · 12th June 2010, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

Just curious, would you consider medical marijuana given to people to alleviate the side effects of chemotherapy alternative medicine? Or, since it actually has been demonstrably effective and is often recommended by mainstream doctors, would you consider that conventional medicine?

I certainly wouldn't consider it to be homoeopathy.

quadraginta · 12th June 2010, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

Just curious, would you consider medical marijuana given to people to alleviate the side effects of chemotherapy alternative medicine? Or, since it actually has been demonstrably effective and is often recommended by mainstream doctors, would you consider that conventional medicine?

This brings up the thorny problem of defining "alternative medicine". My working definition tends to lean towards "treatments which have not been clearly demonstrated by rigorous science to be effective." Obviously, everyone won't agree with that one, but it's not unlike trying to define what exactly constitutes "country music". A lot depends on your perspective.

I don't think that there is any real question in the scientific community concerning the efficacy of marijuana as a palliative for the discomforts of chemotherapy, so I'd have to say, no, it isn't "alternative" medicine in that sense.

Whether or not it is an "approved" medicine seems to be more a matter of politics and geography than science. This might lead us into an alternative definition of "alternative".

Rolfe · 12th June 2010, 01:50 PM

I wouldn't call it alternative, no. It's being used rationally, because of an apparent rational effect, though for obvious reasons it hasn't had enough formal testing to call it evidence-based either.

I wouldn't call cough mixtures alternative medicine either, even though that might be more feel-good, feel you're doing something, than actual pharmacological effect.

Rofe.

10th June 2010, 05:01 AM	#1
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,066	Cancer death puts homeopathy in dock http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225877659069 Quote: A homeopath told a patient with rectal cancer to avoid mainstream medicine because alternative treatment alone could cure her, an inquest was told. The evidence given by her sister, as reported there, is astonishing. See also: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...10/2923936.htm
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

10th June 2010, 05:16 AM	#2
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,554	Quote: She said she had been told by one of the couple's close friends that the Dingles had a pact with the homeopath treating Dingle, Francine Scrayen. Under the pact, they agreed that only alternative medicine would be used and Dr Dingle would then write a book about curing his wife's cancer. Hm. I wonder if, under this pact, he could be forced to write a book titled: "How my homeopathic remedies killed a woman". I'd buy it. McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,554

10th June 2010, 05:20 AM	#3
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,308	Appalling. However, like the baby with the eczema, we'll be told that this is a bizarre aberration of a maverick practitioner, and no responsible homoeopath would give such advice. Nobody will confront the fact that this is what they all believe and advise, it's just that most of them have sufficient common sense to abandon their principles if they encounter real, serious illness and confine themselves to "supporting the patient in a complementary role" and prescribing remedies to "alleviate the side-effects of chemotherapy". The fact is that they all talk the talk. Very few of them may walk the walk all the way, but does that excuse the talk? Peter Fisher may deplore the homoeopaths who tell people to avoid anti-malarials and take homoeopathic prophylactics as well, but they're only following the logic of his own basic position. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

10th June 2010, 05:22 AM	#4
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,066	Originally Posted by Rolfe Peter Fisher may deplore the homoeopaths who tell people to avoid anti-malarials and take homoeopathic prophylactics as well, but they're only following the logic of his own basic position. Indeed - how does he know the homoeopathic malaria prophylactics don't work?
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

10th June 2010, 05:37 AM	#5
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,308	I think he's spent his life carefully only dealing with the self-limiting, the chronic but non-life-threatening, and the worried well. He's comfortable that homoeopathy "works" within these parameters. He doesn't believe homoeopaths should step out of this comfort zone, but he has never analysed the reasons for this belief. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

10th June 2010, 05:40 AM	#6
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 5,884	From the second link above - "She had dozens of bottles of pills. She had to follow her homeopath's instructions exactly," she said." Wonder if the coroner will question the homeopath as to the mechanism by which her treatment would cure cancer. I predict silence or obfuscation but am not willing to rule out batguano insanity as a reply.
	__________________ He bade me take any rug in the house.

10th June 2010, 06:05 AM	#7
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Homeopathy. Never. Works. Worst. Idea. Ever.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

10th June 2010, 07:03 AM	#8
Psi Baba Homo Skepticalis Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Occupying my barstool Posts: 3,177	I really wish these alt-med nutters would be held accountable for this kind of stuff. BTW, I am unfamiliar with the colloquialism "in dock." What exactly does that mean? Searching shows that it is widely used in British and Australian media, but I can't find an explanation of meaning of the phrase. The best match I can come up with would be "on the spot" or "on the hot seat" or "under fire." Is that even close?
	__________________ Save Caribbean Rum! (seriously)

10th June 2010, 07:10 AM	#9
Spiro Scholar Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Ab e'dien Posts: 113	The dock is the walled podium in a UK court where the accused stands during their trial.

10th June 2010, 12:02 PM	#10
Psi Baba Homo Skepticalis Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Occupying my barstool Posts: 3,177	Originally Posted by Spiro The dock is the walled podium in a UK court where the accused stands during their trial. Got it. Thanks. So, all of homeopathy is on trial? Cool.
	__________________ Save Caribbean Rum! (seriously)

10th June 2010, 12:26 PM	#11
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,171	Originally Posted by Psi Baba Got it. Thanks. So, all of homeopathy is on trial? Cool. You wish...
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,171	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

10th June 2010, 12:38 PM	#12
cassis Collector of three letter words Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 321	Originally Posted by Spiro The dock is the walled podium in a UK court where the accused stands during their trial. Although this may not have been the poster's intention, I took it to mean "into storage" or "to bed" or "put away" or "into port", i.e. to imply that the death cast enough doubt on homeopathy that it should be locked up and put away. I thought the poster had taken a little license with the phrase "in[to dry] dock". The quoted meaning is more accurate of course but given the topic, both ideas have merit, I would say.
	__________________ "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road" Stephen Hawking "A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." Carl Sagan Last edited by cassis; 10th June 2010 at 12:39 PM.

10th June 2010, 12:39 PM	#13
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,308	"In the dock" is a standard figure of speech for "on trial", in the sense of standing accused of causing harm. Don't you have docks in them furrin courts? Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

10th June 2010, 12:41 PM	#14
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,066	Something to do with "Admiralty Law".
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

10th June 2010, 12:44 PM	#15
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,066	Originally Posted by cassis Although this may not have been the poster's intention, I took it to mean "into storage" or "to bed" or "put away" or "into port", i.e. to imply that the death cast enough doubt on homeopathy that it should be locked up and put away. I thought the poster had taken a little license with the phrase "in[to dry] dock". The quoted meaning is more accurate of course but given the topic, both ideas have merit, I would say. I just used the headline of the story for the thread title. Headlines rarely have room for the definite article.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

10th June 2010, 12:55 PM	#16
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,550	So what type of homeopathy is Francine Scrayen? Multiple remedies is unusual. On the other hand all their web listingings are for homeapathy so not a case of a wondering quack.

10th June 2010, 01:18 PM	#17
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,717	Originally Posted by geni Multiple remedies is unusual. On the other hand all their web listingings are for homeapathy so not a case of a wondering quack. ...even when you can charge by the bottle? Was she by any chance providing the 'medicines'?

10th June 2010, 01:33 PM	#18
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,532	Originally Posted by Fnord Homeopathy. Never. Works. Worst. Idea. Ever. That's not true, homeopathy can help in the alleviation of at least two diseases/conditions that I can think of off the top of my head. Low blood sugar Dehydration Granted, you have to have to proper forumation of homeopathic solutions, solid pillules in the first case and a liquid remedy in the second, but I think you can see that both of these life-threatening cases could be satifactorily treated with a homeopathic remedy. I am not a doctor and my words should not be taken as an endorsement of said treatments.
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

10th June 2010, 01:36 PM	#19
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by Rolfe Appalling. However, like the baby with the eczema, we'll be told that this is a bizarre aberration of a maverick practitioner, and no responsible homoeopath would give such advice. And the savvy homeopathic practitioners will encourage you to get conventional medical treatment so that they can claim to have cured you despite the negative effects of "allopathy". (Or just lie and say that medical science could do nothing about the condition, but they improved markedly after they took the homeopathic--which just so happened to take place about the time you'd expect the conventional treatment to cause an improvement.)
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

10th June 2010, 01:39 PM	#20
JoeTheJuggler Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 26,653	Originally Posted by kmortis That's not true, homeopathy can help in the alleviation of at least two diseases/conditions that I can think of off the top of my head. Low blood sugar Dehydration Granted, you have to have to proper forumation of homeopathic solutions, solid pillules in the first case and a liquid remedy in the second, but I think you can see that both of these life-threatening cases could be satifactorily treated with a homeopathic remedy. And, to have any reasonable chance of helping with these conditions, you'd have to take the homeopathic remedy in doses far greater than are normally recommended by the homeopaths. (10 to 20 drops of water per day won't do much to alleviate dehydration.)
	__________________ "That is a very graphic analogy which aids understanding wonderfully while being, strictly speaking, wrong in every possible way." —Ponder Stibbons

10th June 2010, 01:43 PM	#21
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,532	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler And, to have any reasonable chance of helping with these conditions, you'd have to take the homeopathic remedy in doses far greater than are normally recommended by the homeopaths. (10 to 20 drops of water per day won't do much to alleviate dehydration.) I never said it was a perfect cure..... You're overthinking it a bit....
	__________________ -Aberhaten did it - "Which gives us an answer to our question. What’s the worst thing that can happen in a pressure cooker?" Randall Monroe -Director of Independent Determining Inquisitor Of Crazy Yapping - Aberhaten's Apothegm™ - An Internet law that states that optimism is indistinguishable from sarcasm

10th June 2010, 01:43 PM	#22
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,550	Originally Posted by shadron ...even when you can charge by the bottle? Was she by any chance providing the 'medicines'? Well the building that is her postal adress is pretty new (it doesn't show up on google streetview)..... But seriously the charge for the remedies tends to be fairly low with the money being made up on consultation fees.

10th June 2010, 01:46 PM	#23
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 22,066	Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler And the savvy homeopathic practitioners will encourage you to get conventional medical treatment so that they can claim to have cured you... Under the microscope: Actress Olivia Newton John on breast cancer and her love for white toast Quote: I used homeopathy, acupuncture, yoga and meditation in conjunction with my chemotherapy to help me get stronger again after the cancer. I also chanted with Buddhist friends and prayed with Christian friends. I covered all my bases. Or, as the story is headlined elsewhere: "Olivia Newton John uses Homeopathy."
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky Last edited by Mojo; 10th June 2010 at 01:47 PM.

10th June 2010, 03:13 PM	#24
Daylightstar Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: hic. Posts: 2,157	She covered all her bases. Which really means she had no faith in either one of them. Since most of these are faith based magical thinking, it's not going to work so well. Sorry Olivia, enjoyed your movies. Rest in peace. Oh wait, she got chemo as well.
	__________________ ~~homeopathy~~ homicidium

10th June 2010, 07:13 PM	#25
Chris Haynes Perfectly Poisonous Person Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wacky Washington Way Out West Posts: 4,203	Originally Posted by Rolfe "In the dock" is a standard figure of speech for "on trial", in the sense of standing accused of causing harm. Don't you have docks in them furrin courts? Rolfe. No. The accused sits at a table next to their lawyer (the other lawyer and lawyer's client sits at a table on nearby). They do not have to stand, and if they do, it is just at the table.
	__________________ I used to be intelligent... but then I had kids "HCN, I hate you!" ( so sayeth Deetee at http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=1077344 )... What I get for linking to http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

10th June 2010, 07:22 PM	#26
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	Odd outcome can be in any system. Few are accounted others may not.
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	__________________ Noble/Logical non-technical views only, no commitments.Live & Let Live. Keep the eyes open till anything is existing in mass but yet unclear. Can Chemical Medicines+Potentised Remedies be the solution for many unclear disorder to cover both Matter & Energy.

10th June 2010, 07:34 PM	#27
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,843	Originally Posted by Kumar Odd outcome can be in any system. Few are accounted others may not. This doesn't make sense.

10th June 2010, 10:39 PM	#28
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	Originally Posted by kerikiwi This doesn't make sense. As this is not accounted;- The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	__________________ Noble/Logical non-technical views only, no commitments.Live & Let Live. Keep the eyes open till anything is existing in mass but yet unclear. Can Chemical Medicines+Potentised Remedies be the solution for many unclear disorder to cover both Matter & Energy.

10th June 2010, 10:51 PM	#29
Filippo Lippi Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Nottingham Posts: 1,575	I thought you were a sceptic now?
	__________________ "There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." - Richard Dawkins

10th June 2010, 11:03 PM	#30
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,843	Originally Posted by Kumar As this is not accounted;- The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy No, the BBC has not. The woman is totally deluded.

10th June 2010, 11:17 PM	#31
Yuri Nalyssus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Ancient Isle of Avignuon Posts: 1,074	Originally Posted by Kumar As this is not accounted;- The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/ Not quite the same thing though, is it? Someone can believe they have cancer but be mistaken and appear then to be cured by a bogus treatment. It's a bit more difficult to be mistaken about whether or not you're dead. Yuri
	__________________ "The test of democracy is freedom of criticism." -David Ben-Gurion Peasant: Now we see the violence inherent in the system. King: Shut up! Peasant: Come and see the violence inherent in the system, help, help! I’m being repressed! King: Bloody peasant! Peasant: Ooh, what a giveaway, did you hear that... that’s what I’m on about, d’you see him repressing me? You saw it didn’t you... - Monty Python and The Holy Grail

11th June 2010, 08:10 PM	#32
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus Not quite the same thing though, is it? Someone can believe they have cancer but be mistaken and appear then to be cured by a bogus treatment. It's a bit more difficult to be mistaken about whether or not you're dead. Yuri You can google other cases in favour of alternative systems. If a person is both sided, he is called a justified person otherwise biased or selfish.
Kumar Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 8,567	__________________ Noble/Logical non-technical views only, no commitments.Live & Let Live. Keep the eyes open till anything is existing in mass but yet unclear. Can Chemical Medicines+Potentised Remedies be the solution for many unclear disorder to cover both Matter & Energy.

11th June 2010, 08:52 PM	#33
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,843	Originally Posted by Kumar If a person is both sided, he is called a justified person otherwise biased or selfish. By ' both sided' do you mean a person who accepts both real medicine(medicine supported by evidence that it actually works) *and* 'alternative' medicine? That's not 'justified', that's something else. If a person only accepts that which is supported by evidence, that's not biased and selfish, that's something else.

11th June 2010, 09:29 PM	#34
tuoni Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: England Posts: 228	Originally Posted by Kumar As this is not accounted;- The BBC have found someone whose cancer was cured by homeopathy http://www.badscience.net/2010/02/th...by-homeopathy/ Has the fact that the link points to a website whose domain is "BAD SCIENCE" not given you a clue as to its validity?

11th June 2010, 09:59 PM	#35
quadraginta What was the question? Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility Posts: 7,906	Originally Posted by Rolfe "In the dock" is a standard figure of speech for "on trial", in the sense of standing accused of causing harm. Don't you have docks in them furrin courts? Rolfe. I think (not sure) that a dedicated enclosure ("dock") for the defendant may have been a regular part of court furnishings in England when this phrase developed. Perhaps it still is. The closest U.S. analogue would be the "witness stand", which doesn't carry the same opprobrium of being charged with a crime. U.S. defendants normally sit with their attorneys at a table in front of the judge, just like the prosecution team.
	__________________ "It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."