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Old 13th June 2010, 11:21 AM   #1
swskeptic
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Bavarian Illuminati disbanded by courier struck by lightning

Hey there. I'm trying to talk to someone about the Bavarian Illuminati.

He claims that the Bavarian Illuminati was discovered due to a courier carrying a document from somewhere to somewhere (the means of transportation and locations change depending on where you read about it). The document supposedly called for 3 world wars to take over the world.

I know this is a fairly simplistic account but I think anyone familiar with the account will know what I'm talking about.

What I'm asking for is if anyone has any sort of evidence for this. Newspaper accounts from the day, anything of that nature. For the life of me I can't find anything outside of conspiracy websites, without sources of where they got the information.

Also, if this other gentleman is making the claim of this happening, isn't the burden of proof on him to provide evidence of his claim? I swear up and down that's how it goes, but he apparently doesn't think so.

Thanks everyone.

You can find the discussion here. He is "Fix_America", I am "swskeptic".
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Old 13th June 2010, 11:41 AM   #2
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Yes, the burden of proof is on him. Until he provides the proof, you have no reason to take him seriously or concede that what he says is true.

I find it interesting that the alleged document called for three world wars. We've already had two, so where is the third? What is the the Bavarian Illuminati waiting for? There are plenty of ways they could have potentially started another world war over the past 65 years. If they are as powerful as CT claim they are, why are they waiting?.

What's the hold up?
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Old 13th June 2010, 11:56 AM   #3
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So the B.I. were so foresightful that they came up with a 100+ year plan that requires no significant changes. Amazing. Their turn-of-the-century, long-range planning already took into account fission bombs, ICBMs, satellite resolution down to 1 sq. ft., unmanned drones, and the dozens of other technological advances that change the very nature of multi-national war.


ETA: also, sometimes strategists change their plans after they have been leaked.
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Old 13th June 2010, 01:46 PM   #4
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The Illuminati is not disbanded. It's now called the O.T.O. (Seriously, they claim to be the inheritors of the tradition, with some colorable claim to just that.)
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Old 13th June 2010, 02:01 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Markus View Post
I find it interesting that the alleged document called for three world wars. We've already had two, so where is the third?

Standard M.O. for conspiracy theorists/doom mongers. The alleged plans of their chosen, clandestine cabal are almost complete.

If we do have a third World War and the Illuminati is no where in sight, I guarantee the story will morph into Them calling for four World Wars.
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Old 13th June 2010, 03:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
If we do have a third World War and the Illuminati is no where in sight, I guarantee the story will morph into Them calling for four World Wars.
You got that part wrong, it is four horsemen at the end, not four wars.
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Old 13th June 2010, 04:27 PM   #7
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I just came here to get away from Reddit, and y'all just keep pulling me back in.

Fix_America has provided ZERO evidence of any Bavarian press reporting any such incident, and I can find nothing except unsourced CT websites parroting the same claim.

Admirable effort, but Fix_America is not interested in any world view in which he doesn't already know more than you. You can't help them. If, however, they DO provide something resembling evidence, I'd love to see it.
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Old 13th June 2010, 04:47 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by zaphod2016 View Post
I just came here to get away from Reddit, and y'all just keep pulling me back in.
You'll never escape

Originally Posted by zaphod2016 View Post
Fix_America has provided ZERO evidence of any Bavarian press reporting any such incident, and I can find nothing except unsourced CT websites parroting the same claim.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I ran into, I tried to tell him that several times but he just tends to ignore it.

Originally Posted by zaphod2016 View Post
If, however, they DO provide something resembling evidence, I'd love to see it.
Me to, I'll share anything he sends my way.
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Old 13th June 2010, 04:50 PM   #9
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What is in dispute, the catching of the courier or the "three world wars" document?
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:05 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
What is in dispute, the catching of the courier or the "three world wars" document?
At this point, both.
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:08 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by swskeptic View Post
Hey there. I'm trying to talk to someone about the Bavarian Illuminati.

He claims that the Bavarian Illuminati was discovered due to a courier carrying a document from somewhere to somewhere (the means of transportation and locations change depending on where you read about it). The document supposedly called for 3 world wars to take over the world.

I know this is a fairly simplistic account but I think anyone familiar with the account will know what I'm talking about.

What I'm asking for is if anyone has any sort of evidence for this. Newspaper accounts from the day, anything of that nature. For the life of me I can't find anything outside of conspiracy websites, without sources of where they got the information.

Also, if this other gentleman is making the claim of this happening, isn't the burden of proof on him to provide evidence of his claim? I swear up and down that's how it goes, but he apparently doesn't think so.

Thanks everyone.

You can find the discussion here. He is "Fix_America", I am "swskeptic".
You can safely dismiss this one as trash. The "three world wars" documents never existed - it was a made up letter that CTs want to think Albert Pike authored. You can visit a woo site to read the supposed text here:
http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

We know its completely made up because its only cited on woo websites and they all claim its from the British Museum Library in London. When Masons actually contacted the British Museum Library in London, they were told no such document was in their archives nor did they have anything like it, nor did they ever possess anything like it previously.

Of course, when the woos found this out the reaction was that of course it was a conspiracy and the document was kept being hidden. Alas, that doesn't work either. We know its fake even if a museum had it because it could not be written in 1871 - it uses words that did not exist at the time in any context, like Nazi.
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:10 PM   #12
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O.T.O.? What the hell are you talking about?
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
The Illuminati is not disbanded. It's now called the O.T.O. (Seriously, they claim to be the inheritors of the tradition, with some colorable claim to just that.)
The OTO claims a lot of things, but there is no historical evidence that it is the "heir" to the Illuminati. They only claim it because it makes them look more mystic and powerful than they really are.

The only historical heir to the Illuminati, if there could be any, would be Freemasonry. We have historical proof that Illuminati members planned to infiltrate the masonic lodge and use it to spread their agenda. However, we also have historical evidence that such infiltration attempts failed miserably.

As such, the Illuminati is no longer around - due in large part to the government of Bavaria over freemasonry, though.
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:13 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by INRM View Post
O.T.O.? What the hell are you talking about?
Ordo Templi Orientis, a religious/esoteric society based on the law of Thelma founded by Aleister Crowley after he got rejected from regular freemasonry.

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Old 13th June 2010, 05:15 PM   #15
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@swskeptic: Well, as far as i know, the "three world wars" document was allegedly written by Abert Pike to Guiseppe Mazzini, or vice versa, and has nothing to do with the catching of the Illuminati courier. I'm quite sure the latter event is a fact, but right now i don't find the source.
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:20 PM   #16
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http://www.masonicinfo.com/3worldwars.htm

More info on one the entire letter never existed. Silly me, I also forgot Albert Pike signs it in the hoax as an office he never held.
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:30 PM   #17
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You're again throwing out the baby with the bathwater, LiD. The guy is just looking for information. He doesn't understand what you're getting at.
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:35 PM   #18
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You are yet again clinging to the woo, Childlike. If there is no such thing as a three wars letter and its a hoax, then it would be impossible for someone to be carrying it (and be struck by lightning) and have it be used to disband the Bavarian Illuminati. The letter was not invented until years after the date the hoax uses. The letter was not invented until 1924 at the absolute earliest, and the Bavarian Illuminati was shut down by the Bavarian government in 1785.

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Old 13th June 2010, 05:49 PM   #19
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This is the first time that i heard that the "three world wars" document comes out of the pocket of the Illuminati courier catched. I'm not sure about the authenticity of that letter. But i'm sure you could spare me and the OP some time digging for the source documenting the catching of the courier. You don't dispute that this happened, no?
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:49 PM   #20
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I knew it was nonsense, but I didn't understand the depth of this nonsense until I looked at the alleged letter. That was most certainly not written in the 1800's.
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Old 13th June 2010, 05:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
This is the first time that i heard that the "three world wars" document comes out of the pocket of the Illuminati courier catched. I'm not sure about the authenticity of that letter. But i'm sure you could spare me and the OP some time digging for the source documenting the catching of the courier. You don't dispute that this happened, no?
REALLY? Has your willingness to embrace the woo gone up so much that even though this event COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED is not enough for you, you want specific details on the story that ALL EVIDENCE SAYS COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED?

Very well - if you read the reddit link you'd see the OP already found that anyways:
Quote:
s an example of the mythology that surrounds the history of the Illuminati, note that Barruel claimed that Lanz, an Illuminati courier and apostate priest, was struck by lightning, thus revealing Weishaupt’s papers to the authorities, but this does not appear to be substantiated. This error was widely reprinted and enlarged on by subsequent anti-masons whose lack of research and disdain for historical accuracy has lead them to confuse Johann Jakob Lanz (d.1785), a non-Illuminati secular priest in Erding, and friend of Weishaupt, with Franz Georg Lang, a court advisor in Eichstätt who was active in the Illuminati under the name Tamerlan.
http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/illuminati.html

Now I know what you are thinking, Childlike. Since this is from a freemasonry website it clearly can't be used as evidence since clearly masons are in on the plot, right? Unfortunately (for CTers) the British Columbia grand lodge uses extensive citations of academic peer reviewed sources for everything it states on these topics.

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Old 13th June 2010, 05:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I knew it was nonsense, but I didn't understand the depth of this nonsense until I looked at the alleged letter. That was most certainly not written in the 1800's.
I know..but, hey, who let the facts get in the way of a good global cabal conspiracy?
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Old 13th June 2010, 06:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by LightinDarkness View Post
Ordo Templi Orientis, a religious/esoteric society based on the law of Thelma founded by Aleister Crowley after he got rejected from regular freemasonry.
Not accurate. Actually he held Masonic degrees. The OTO passed into Crowley's control from a group that originated in either Germany or Austria some time after 1894. The founder was reported to be Carl Kellner, and he is reported to have been in a direct line of succession with members of the Illuminati.

When I say "colorable" I don't mean you can verify it, secret societies are secrets, after all. But I do mean that we do know Crowley did not invent the whole thing himself, though he did revise almost all of the initiations in line with his Thelemic theology, and I do mean that those who came to Crowley claimed an Illuminati pedigree.
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Old 13th June 2010, 06:08 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by LightinDarkness View Post
REALLY? Has your willingness to embrace the woo gone up so much that even though this event COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED is not enough for you, you want specific details on the story that ALL EVIDENCE SAYS COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED?.

I DID NOT CLAIM THAT ALBERT PIKES LETTER WAS FOUND IN THE ILLUMINATI COURIERS POCKET AND I WOULD APPRETIATE IF YOU WOULD KEEP YOUR PARANOID DEFENSIVE POSTS TO YOURSELF FROM NOW ON FOR EVER, FRUITLOOP!

Maybe i'm going to look up the sources for the courier being catched tomorrow.
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Old 13th June 2010, 06:10 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I DID NOT CLAIM THAT ALBERT PIKES LETTER WAS FOUND IN THE ILLUMINATI COURIERS POCKET AND I WOULD APPRETIATE IF YOU WOULD KEEP YOUR PARANOID DEFENSIVE POSTS TO YOURSELF FROM NOW ON TO EVER, FRUITLOOP

Maybe i'm going to look up the sources for the courier being catched tomorrow.
At least three different sources have been cited showing you how this story came to be and that the letter is not real. There was no three world wars letter, its a hoax. The so called "courier story" is based on a historical confusion between two similarly named people, one of whom was not personally connected with the Bavarian Illuminati. The only reason why the stories exist is because anti-masons prefer to ignore the evidence.

Perhaps you should keep your paranoid rambling to yourself and read all of this before getting hysterical on me?

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Old 13th June 2010, 06:14 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Not accurate. Actually he held Masonic degrees. The OTO passed into Crowley's control from a group that originated in either Germany or Austria some time after 1894. The founder was reported to be Carl Kellner, and he is reported to have been in a direct line of succession with members of the Illuminati.

When I say "colorable" I don't mean you can verify it, secret societies are secrets, after all. But I do mean that we do know Crowley did not invent the whole thing himself, though he did revise almost all of the initiations in line with his Thelemic theology, and I do mean that those who came to Crowley claimed an Illuminati pedigree.
You are technically correct on the first of this - OTO was not founded by Crowley. A misstatement on my part. However, before Crowley the OTO was based after freemasonry - its current day existence has no material similarity because of the changes Crowley made. There is little intellectual heritage from pre and post-Crowley OTO other than the name. Crowley's influence is so great on OTO that although he may not have been the founder, his mark on it is lasting and profound. His influence was much like the influence of Pike on Scottish Rite Freemasonry. Pike did not found the order but his influence and changes on it mean that what exists today is much more similar to Pike's vision than the founders of the order.

The OTO claims it was invented in 1895 but the earliest any historical evidence of its existence can be found is 1904. The Bavarian Illuminati was disbanded in 1785, so so Carl Kellner - born in 1851 - could not have been a Illuminati successor or anything like it. There is no such thing. Its just another OTO invented story to add to their mystique. Its no different than early 1900s freemasons claiming to descend from the Knights Templar (which was also false).

Its also not true Crowley held masonic degrees. His "degrees" were bought whole sale and he got rather mad about it all when he tried to get into a real masonic lodge and was denied admission. Indeed, this rejection by mainstream freemasonry was the reason why he became involved in the OTO because he was interested in the masonic structure. His lasting anger at the fraternity for not treating him as a brother (due to his fake degrees) is why the structure of the OTO changed so much by the time he was done. We don't know this from the historical record - Crowley would never admit such, of course - but it has been what multiple biographers have suggested.

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Old 13th June 2010, 06:30 PM   #27
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You and I have obviously read totally different sources.

My sources, from recollection, say that Crowley was a freemason before he was an initiate of the Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn, but that he had never advanced past third degree at that time. He did buy his advanced degrees however. The changes to the first three initiations of the OTO, which had been nearly identical to Freemasonry, were not, by my sources, in spite of Freemasonry, but instead to address their concerns that it was an irregular Masonic body.
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Old 13th June 2010, 06:33 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Maybe i'm going to look up the sources for the courier being catched tomorrow.
"Catched"?
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Old 13th June 2010, 06:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
"Catched"?

Yup. By lightning and the church.
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Old 13th June 2010, 06:47 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by LightinDarkness View Post
You can safely dismiss this one as trash. The "three world wars" documents never existed - it was a made up letter that CTs want to think Albert Pike authored. You can visit a woo site to read the supposed text here:
http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

We know its completely made up because its only cited on woo websites and they all claim its from the British Museum Library in London. When Masons actually contacted the British Museum Library in London, they were told no such document was in their archives nor did they have anything like it, nor did they ever possess anything like it previously.

Wow.

Quote:
It is a commonly believed fallacy that for a short time, the Pike letter to Mazzini was on display in the British Museum Library in London, and it was copied by William Guy Carr, former Intelligence Officer in the Royal Canadian Navy. The British Library has confirmed in writing to me that such a document has never been in their possession. Furthermore, in Carr's book, Satan, Prince of this World, Carr includes the following footnote:

"The Keeper of Manuscripts recently informed the author that this letter is NOT catalogued in the British Museum Library. It seems strange that a man of Cardinal Rodriguez's knowledge should have said that it WAS in 1925".

It appears that Carr learned about this letter from Cardinal Caro y Rodriguez of Santiago, Chile, who wrote The Mystery of Freemasonry Unveiled.

To date, no conclusive proof exists to show that this letter was ever written. Nevertheless, the letter is widely quoted and the topic of much discussion.

Even though he admits there's no evidence this letter is real, and that there is evidence that at least one person was entirely wrong about it's source, he still acts as if it's all true.


Quote:
Of course, when the woos found this out the reaction was that of course it was a conspiracy and the document was kept being hidden. Alas, that doesn't work either. We know its fake even if a museum had it because it could not be written in 1871 - it uses words that did not exist at the time in any context, like Nazi.

Oh, but he's so clever, he's figured a way around that!


Quote:
Readers who argue that the terms Nazism and Zionism were not known in 1871 should remember that the Illuminati invented both these movements.

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Old 13th June 2010, 06:48 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
You and I have obviously read totally different sources.

My sources, from recollection, say that Crowley was a freemason before he was an initiate of the Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn, but that he had never advanced past third degree at that time. He did buy his advanced degrees however. The changes to the first three initiations of the OTO, which had been nearly identical to Freemasonry, were not, by my sources, in spite of Freemasonry, but instead to address their concerns that it was an irregular Masonic body.
I have found no historical evidence - other than the OTO - that claims Crowley was a freemason. Both historical (before Crowley got his reputation) and contemporary sources state that he was never a mason. If it was only contemporary sources I could believe that freemasons were trying to do a bit of historical revisionism due to Crowley's 21st century reputation. However, masonic meeting records from the period CLEARLY state that Crowley was not considered a mason.

I guess the confusing between your and my reading of this may come from me being a mason (I assume you are not one - correct me if I am wrong). In the masonic world, for as long as I have been a mason, being initiated into a unrecognized lodge labeled clandestine or irregular is the same as not being a mason. People who do this that wish to join mainstream freemasonry have to go through the process all over again because the lodge does not consider their initiation as having any masonic validity. Which makes sense, to us, since there is no copyright on making freemasons - anyone can do it. But to be considered an actual freemason by freemasons, you have to join a regular and recognized lodge.

Crowley was initiated into a clandestine lodge. He was initiated into the Golden Dawn and shortly before the Golden Dawn's fabricated beginnings started to cause the Order lots of trouble. While sailing to Mexico (which he was traveling to on the advice of members of the Golden Dawn order) he was initiated into a completely unrecognized and unheard of masonic order in Mexico City. There is even some question on whether this really happened - Crowley was very good at keeping records and the only record we have of this event his own words. Given his love for status symbols it seems strange he did not request or receive a certificate to show his initiation. He later petitioned the Grand Loge de France, which was also an unrecognized masonic body, where he became a member.

When he tried to join a regular lodge, the response was clear:
Quote:
You will be interested to know that I had a call yesterday from Aleister McArthur [sic] Crowley. He produced a Certificate, showing that he is a member of the Anglo-Saxon Lodge, warranted in Paris by the Grand Lodge of France. He is desirous of joining an English Lodge, but I told him plainly that as far as 1 am concerned, 1 should refuse his admission to any English Lodge with which I am connected. 1 recommended that he should see the Grand Secretary in order to get official information, and he promised to do so. But when I called there later in the day I found that he had already made enquiries early last week, and that the information there given exactly coincided with mine. (Letter, W J. Songhurst to W. Wynn Westcott, 20 August 1912, Private Collection 'C').
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/crowley.html

I use the British Columbia lodge website, again, because its well sourced - this isn't simply the opinion of the lodge.

He did revise OTO rituals because masonic authorities at the time told him that the order was not masonic and that he was not a mason. Crowley simply complying with what others told him on this seems unusual, and the biographies I have read from neutral writers always suggest he removed masonic references out of spite rather than a desire to comply with authority (since in his view it would honor freemasonry to have masonic references in the OTO). Whether this is true or not, and why he really did revise OTO rituals, I guess we will never know.

Last edited by LightinDarkness; 13th June 2010 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 13th June 2010, 07:01 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Oh, but he's so clever, he's figured a way around that!
:

It is simply amazing to me that when faced with all the evidence that something is incorrect, CTers will do absolutely anything to still believe.
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Old 13th June 2010, 07:03 PM   #33
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1912 would be two years after Crowley was initiated into the OTO, btw, not before. And long after he was initiated into the G.D. It's not surprising that there is issue about masonic degrees, btw, there were in the 19th century a lot of bodies not recognized by the principle bodies of freemasons. And in any case that isn't what I was trying to argue.

Yes, the Bavarian Illuminati was disbanded, but it is the nature of secret societies to pass on their secrets secretly. It is not at all impossible that Kellner was heir to those signs and etc. Basically argument from lack of proof is not proof of lack, if you follow me.
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Old 13th June 2010, 07:05 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Yup. By lightning and the church.
No. Just no. Believe all the woo you want, but I cannot tolerate this assault on the English language.
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Old 13th June 2010, 07:16 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
1912 would be two years after Crowley was initiated into the OTO, btw, not before. And long after he was initiated into the G.D. It's not surprising that there is issue about masonic degrees, btw, there were in the 19th century a lot of bodies not recognized by the principle bodies of freemasons. And in any case that isn't what I was trying to argue.
Actually it is surprising since regular freemasonry was established early in the 1700s, and most definitely settled by 1717 with the United Grand Lodge of England.

The biographies I have read put Crowley as a GD member before being initiated into a clandestine lodge no one had ever heard of in Mexico City, and later becoming a member of a still small (but more recognized than the Mexico city outfit) French lodge.

Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
Yes, the Bavarian Illuminati was disbanded, but it is the nature of secret societies to pass on their secrets secretly. It is not at all impossible that Kellner was heir to those signs and etc. Basically argument from lack of proof is not proof of lack, if you follow me.
As you point out, there is no evidence for this. The Bavarian Illuminati was shut down by the government. Members of the Bavarian Illuminati attempted to continue their worked through infiltrating Freemasonry - which failed. There is not one piece of evidence to suggest they have any connection to the OTO. And assuming that it might be possible based on your reasoning (that lack of evidence doesn't mean it could not occur) would be an argument from ignorance fallacy.

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Old 13th June 2010, 07:18 PM   #36
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I am saying the people who contacted Crowley claimed the connection.

And were from the right place, geographically.

So there isn't a whole lot of reason to say they are liars.

Again, I don't claim its a fact, just that its entirely possible given the nature of secret societies.
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Old 13th June 2010, 07:38 PM   #37
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It strikes me that the 'Three World Wars' thing is another example of humans reading too much into their own arbitrarily applied nomenclatures. The only reason we can say there have only been two world wars to date is because only two wars have been given the appelation 'World War.'

The Napoleonic War could also be labelled a 'World War' given the number of countries involved and the scope of the theatres it was fought in.
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Old 13th June 2010, 07:44 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Naddig74 View Post
... The Napoleonic War could also be labelled a 'World War' given the number of countries involved and the scope of the theatres it was fought in.
Without a doubt.
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Old 13th June 2010, 09:42 PM   #39
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Quote:

We know its completely made up because its only cited on woo websites and they all claim its from the British Museum Library in London. When Masons actually contacted the British Museum Library in London, they were told no such document was in their archives nor did they have anything like it, nor did they ever possess anything like it previously.
I actually read a copy of Pike's Morals and Dogma a Freemason I know sent me when I expressed interest, and read some more of his works online, even some of his newspaper work, and the letters just aren't done by the same person.
The whole thing is ridiculous, but then, I joined Davy Dick's forum a while ago and tried to hold a discussion with some of them, more the fool me.
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Old 14th June 2010, 11:54 AM   #40
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First off, we have to question the truthfulness of the lightning-struck courier because it is told so very differently on these exposé websites. Some claim that the courier was carrying plans of the French Revolution and was killed in 1785. Others claim it was the three-world-war letter discovered in 1871.

Let's look back at 1871. Jews have earned the right to vote in England less than 20 years ago and still do not have the right to vote in many European countries. Muslims are losing power as their countries become economically irrelevant or occupied by the British Empire. It is at this point that the schemers say. "let's control every aspect of international affairs in such a way that 140 years from now, these two groups become so powerful that a conflict between them will cause nations around the world to enter a world war, the results of which will allow us to control the world." Really? If they had that much power wouldn't there have been a dozen easier ways to take control of the world? For instance, according to the letter:
Quote:
"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."
Wouldn't world power have been much easier to acquire by not putting an emotionally-charged nut in charge of Nazi Germany and also giving them the Bomb, long-range bombers, and radar while at the same time keeping those things out of the hands of the allies? Such éminences grise could have ordered the carriers to be in port on December 9th or could have made the U.S. so isolationist and pacifist that they didn't even build carriers.

Furthermore, their plan to use communism to keep Christianity in check failed miserably.

I could go on, but the point is made. Even if it were true, it is such an ass-backwards plan to rule the world that only the most gullible of people could take it seriously. Besides, if they can start world wars according to their own schedule, they already rule the world. Why bother with a one-world government.
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Last edited by Ladewig; 14th June 2010 at 11:56 AM.
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