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Markus · 13th June 2010, 03:18 PM

When I read a description of Christianity, it is often described as being Monotheistic. Is this really the case?

Unless I misunderstand, it seems that God is not the only "deity" that exists within the Christian belief system. There is also Satan, as well as various angles and demons. A number of Christians I speak with state that they believe in these beings (well, at the very least they admit to believing in Satan). These beings apparently have powers beyond that of any creature or human on earth, so surely they fit the definition of "deity".

Since multiple deities exist, wouldn't that make Christianity polytheistic? I believe that the definition of polytheism states that one only needs to "believe" the deities exits. They don't have to worship them. Due to this, could Christianity actually be considered polytheistic?

Brainache · 13th June 2010, 04:31 PM

I think it's more a kind of Monotheistic Bureaucracy with God as the boss and all those other lesser beings running around doing the dirty work.

Although the Trinity business does sound a lot like polytheism, but that's mostly just for the Catholics and basically they're just pagans playing make-believe monotheists anyway...

Newtons Bit · 13th June 2010, 04:42 PM

From the Athanasian Creed:

Quote:

And yet they are not three almighties
but one almighty.
So the Father is God,
the Son is God,
and the Holy Spirit is God.
And yet there are not three gods;
but one God.

And from the Ten commandments:

Quote:

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

By Christian dogma, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all one entity. I think that's a pretty clear statement of belief in one God. A confusing one, but still just One. He also doesn't allow you to worship in other entities. I think that meets the definition of Monotheistic.

L The Detective · 13th June 2010, 05:33 PM

I've never understood the whole "Holy Ghost" thing. What does it actually do in the Bible? What is it's significance?

It kinda seems like they invented it because they figured that as long as Jesus was also God, they should have another thing that was also God, so that way God would have 3 parts. Maybe just because 3 is a satisfying number?

Cause I mean, if the Bible were a screenplay for instance, "The Holy Ghost" would seem like a completely redundant character... he doesn't actually *do* anything that the character God couldn't do, so just write him out of the script. One less actor to pay!

Brainache · 13th June 2010, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by L The Detective

I've never understood the whole "Holy Ghost" thing. What does it actually do in the Bible? What is it's significance?

It kinda seems like they invented it because they figured that as long as Jesus was also God, they should have another thing that was also God, so that way God would have 3 parts. Maybe just because 3 is a satisfying number?

Cause I mean, if the Bible were a screenplay for instance, "The Holy Ghost" would seem like a completely redundant character... he doesn't actually *do* anything that the character God couldn't do, so just write him out of the script. One less actor to pay!

Dude, He's a ghost! You have to give those lazy buggers in the special effects department something to do or they'll spend all day eating all the snacks!

Sun Countess · 13th June 2010, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by L The Detective

I've never understood the whole "Holy Ghost" thing. What does it actually do in the Bible? What is it's significance?

He rapes Mary.

Hokulele · 13th June 2010, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

He also doesn't allow you to worship in other entities. I think that meets the definition of Monotheistic.

Um, no. It just means that it is one jealous god out of many. A monotheism suggests that there is only one god, so there would be no reason for such a commandment. There is quite a bit of evidence both in the Old Testament as well as outside of it that Judaism evolved from polytheism.

Bikewer · 13th June 2010, 08:28 PM

Even as little kids in Catholic school back in the fifties, the Trinity didn't make sense and we raised essentially the same questions as above.
To which the priests said...."It's a Mystery Of Faith."

No further discussion.

yomero · 16th June 2010, 03:01 AM

The way I see it, the Catholic laity behave as de facto pagans. They pray to and worship a multitude of saints each of whom has a specialized field of miracles. The very images of the saints are often the direct object of veneration, with childish stories explaining the miraculous origin of the idols. The concept that almost all Catholics have of Mary is undistinguishable from that of god. The different representations of the Virgin (Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) are treated by most Catholics as completely different entities for all practical purposes. Even Jesus is fragmented into several gods (Sacred Heart, The Child Jesus, The Lord at the garden, etc.)

The official dogma is that saints only intercede before god who is the one that performs the miracles, (I guess the saints are a little like lobbyists at the U.S. Congress.) and that the images are only a reminder of what they represent. Any educated Catholic knows this and will likely answer something like that when asked. Nevertheless, most frequently his feelings and his behavior will be similar to what I mentioned in the first paragraph.

There is very little that I know of the Eastern Orthodox churches. My guess is that they are a bit like the Catholic church regarding polytheism and idolatry, but that's only a guess. Does any other poster know the facts?

arthwollipot · 16th June 2010, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

Um, no. It just means that it is one jealous god out of many. A monotheism suggests that there is only one god, so there would be no reason for such a commandment. There is quite a bit of evidence both in the Old Testament as well as outside of it that Judaism evolved from polytheism.

According to Islam, There is no God but God, and Mohammed is His Prophet.

Also, despite its origins in early polythestic beliefs, I do not believe that you'd get any modern Christian to admit the existence of any other gods.

(BTW, the word "Elohim" used in Genesis is a plural noun.)

McHrozni · 16th June 2010, 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by L The Detective

I've never understood the whole "Holy Ghost" thing. What does it actually do in the Bible? What is it's significance?

I think of it as an avatar. It would make a certain amount of sense, a Gods' way of personally doing things on Earth. It would certainly explain how the holy spirit and god are one and the same.

McHrozni

HansMustermann · 16th June 2010, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by yomero

The way I see it, the Catholic laity behave as de facto pagans. They pray to and worship a multitude of saints each of whom has a specialized field of miracles. The very images of the saints are often the direct object of veneration, with childish stories explaining the miraculous origin of the idols. The concept that almost all Catholics have of Mary is undistinguishable from that of god. The different representations of the Virgin (Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) are treated by most Catholics as completely different entities for all practical purposes. Even Jesus is fragmented into several gods (Sacred Heart, The Child Jesus, The Lord at the garden, etc.)

The official dogma is that saints only intercede before god who is the one that performs the miracles, (I guess the saints are a little like lobbyists at the U.S. Congress.) and that the images are only a reminder of what they represent. Any educated Catholic knows this and will likely answer something like that when asked. Nevertheless, most frequently his feelings and his behavior will be similar to what I mentioned in the first paragraph.

There is very little that I know of the Eastern Orthodox churches. My guess is that they are a bit like the Catholic church regarding polytheism and idolatry, but that's only a guess. Does any other poster know the facts?

But even with that explanation, that's not really all that different from actual polytheism. Polytheists also don't deny the existence of other gods (though they might go for some "oh, but you are the bestest evar!" flattery in actual prayers), even higher gods on the hierarchy. And gods can and do often intercede to other gods for stuff outside their domain. E.g., Bast might put a good word for you with Isis.

arthwollipot · 16th June 2010, 03:45 AM

Far as I know, Catholics don't worship saints. They petition saints to intercede with God on their behalf. Not the same thing.

HansMustermann · 16th June 2010, 05:15 AM

Really? Because as far as I know, even the official RCC doctrine doesn't draw that hard a line. What there is is a very poorly defined line between "adoration" or "latria" which is due to God alone, and "veneration" or "dulia" which is fair game for saints too. And the term "worship" is regularly used to mean either. Basically you can't call the saints perfect or such, but otherwise it's very debatable exactly how much worship is merely "veneration" and where does "adoration" begin.

And that was the doctrine. If you take a bunch of individual catholics, I doubt that most have a clearly drawn line between even the two kinds of worship and observe that line religiously. But at any rate it still is worship.

Cainkane1 · 16th June 2010, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by Markus

When I read a description of Christianity, it is often described as being Monotheistic. Is this really the case?

Unless I misunderstand, it seems that God is not the only "deity" that exists within the Christian belief system. There is also Satan, as well as various angles and demons. A number of Christians I speak with state that they believe in these beings (well, at the very least they admit to believing in Satan). These beings apparently have powers beyond that of any creature or human on earth, so surely they fit the definition of "deity".

Since multiple deities exist, wouldn't that make Christianity polytheistic? I believe that the definition of polytheism states that one only needs to "believe" the deities exits. They don't have to worship them. Due to this, could Christianity actually be considered polytheistic?

Most christians except Mormons think that God the father, God the son and God the Holy Ghost are somehow one and the same person. I don't understand it myself.

Aepervius · 16th June 2010, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit

From the Athanasian Creed:

And from the Ten commandments:

By Christian dogma, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all one entity. I think that's a pretty clear statement of belief in one God. A confusing one, but still just One. He also doesn't allow you to worship in other entities. I think that meets the definition of Monotheistic.

So.... Now to "evil" we can add "schizophrenic" and "split personality" to the christian religion ?

I mean, when one say "oh father why have you forsaken me ?" one expect that the father and self are not the same entity. That all 3 in one reek of the "Oh damn, our worshipper worship Jesus more than god, it is idolatry, what shall we do now ? Oh yeah I know let us pretend they are all the same in 1".

Aepervius · 16th June 2010, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Far as I know, Catholics don't worship saints. They petition saints to intercede with God on their behalf. Not the same thing.

Yeah that is the official explanation. But knowing all the cathos I met back in France, or even in my family, their prayer quite often clearly demonstrate that they ask the SAINT to do the act, and not to intercede in their favor.

Personal Grudge · 16th June 2010, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Most christians except Mormons think that God the father, God the son and God the Holy Ghost are somehow one and the same person. I don't understand it myself.

That is my experience as well. As a former Mormon, I would have to state that the LDS denomination of Christianity is definitely polytheistic. After all, Mormons believe they themselves will become gods eventually.

We are just going through the same process the God did himself. God was a mortal man that, through progression and growth, became the deity he is now. Mormons who follow the LDS doctrine will, after death, move on to the Celestial Kingdom. In this place, the same progression and growth may occur for these individuals... thereby becoming the same as God is now.

I have to admit, I rather like this fairy tale more than the others spread by other Christian denominations.

Wowbagger · 16th June 2010, 07:21 AM

The history of religion is full of mergings and splittings of various deities at various times, in various places. What we see, today, is the consequence of all that history and heritage. Sometimes, it gets so "messy" that a sense of "unified grand plan" becomes appealing, so assurances of monotheism are introduced into the mix.

Marduk · 16th June 2010, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Markus

When I read a description of Christianity, it is often described as being Monotheistic. Is this really the case?

Unless I misunderstand, it seems that God is not the only "deity" that exists within the Christian belief system. There is also Satan, as well as various angles and demons. A number of Christians I speak with state that they believe in these beings (well, at the very least they admit to believing in Satan). These beings apparently have powers beyond that of any creature or human on earth, so surely they fit the definition of "deity".

Since multiple deities exist, wouldn't that make Christianity polytheistic? I believe that the definition of polytheism states that one only needs to "believe" the deities exits. They don't have to worship them. Due to this, could Christianity actually be considered polytheistic?

The Angels are considered divine messengers, i.e. they carry messages from the Divinity but are not actually divine themselves.
Demons are not considered divine, Satan is still regarded as an Angel, and in Judaism still does Gods bidding, its a Christian paradigm that he lost his grace

So there is only one God (divinity) that is worshipped, monotheists do also worship angels but only in as much as they are interceding aspects of the one true God.

now if you'd asked, why is Christianity monotheistic, thats a much better and larger question, but in a nutshell, proto monotheism isn't unique to Judaism, the idea of there being one supreme God was rampant across many ancient cultures with all the other Gods regarded as less supreme. Judaism was founded mainly on ideas from Akkadian theology during the Babylonian Diaspora. Close hebrew contemporaries of the Judiac monotheism formation period actually state this themselves, that the angels were derived from the lesser Gods of Babylonia and that all the names of the angels originally sprang from that source. Its still quite interesting from a linguistic stanpoint that many of the original Angelic names translate directly in babylonian to some meaning connected with the specific role, but I won't bore you with it

13th June 2010, 03:18 PM	#1
Markus Student Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 38	Is Christianity Really Monotheism? When I read a description of Christianity, it is often described as being Monotheistic. Is this really the case? Unless I misunderstand, it seems that God is not the only "deity" that exists within the Christian belief system. There is also Satan, as well as various angles and demons. A number of Christians I speak with state that they believe in these beings (well, at the very least they admit to believing in Satan). These beings apparently have powers beyond that of any creature or human on earth, so surely they fit the definition of "deity". Since multiple deities exist, wouldn't that make Christianity polytheistic? I believe that the definition of polytheism states that one only needs to "believe" the deities exits. They don't have to worship them. Due to this, could Christianity actually be considered polytheistic?
Markus Student Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 38

13th June 2010, 04:31 PM	#2
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Behind you! Posts: 9,182	I think it's more a kind of Monotheistic Bureaucracy with God as the boss and all those other lesser beings running around doing the dirty work. Although the Trinity business does sound a lot like polytheism, but that's mostly just for the Catholics and basically they're just pagans playing make-believe monotheists anyway...
	__________________ Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs Invert the prominent diaphragm!!! Expect from others what you did to them - Seneca. Last edited by Brainache; 13th June 2010 at 04:32 PM.

13th June 2010, 04:42 PM	#3
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,051	From the Athanasian Creed: Quote: And yet they are not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet there are not three gods; but one God. And from the Ten commandments: Quote: 2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 Do not have any other gods before me. 4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, By Christian dogma, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all one entity. I think that's a pretty clear statement of belief in one God. A confusing one, but still just One. He also doesn't allow you to worship in other entities. I think that meets the definition of Monotheistic.
Newtons Bit Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 7,051	__________________ "Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein My website.

13th June 2010, 05:36 PM	#5
Brainache Nasty Brutish and Tall Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Behind you! Posts: 9,182	Originally Posted by L The Detective I've never understood the whole "Holy Ghost" thing. What does it actually do in the Bible? What is it's significance? It kinda seems like they invented it because they figured that as long as Jesus was also God, they should have another thing that was also God, so that way God would have 3 parts. Maybe just because 3 is a satisfying number? Cause I mean, if the Bible were a screenplay for instance, "The Holy Ghost" would seem like a completely redundant character... he doesn't actually do anything that the character God couldn't do, so just write him out of the script. One less actor to pay! Dude, He's a ghost! You have to give those lazy buggers in the special effects department something to do or they'll spend all day eating all the snacks!
	__________________ Words cannot convey the vertiginous retching horror that enveloped me as I lost consciousness. - W. S. Burroughs Invert the prominent diaphragm!!! Expect from others what you did to them - Seneca.

13th June 2010, 06:45 PM	#7
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,349	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit He also doesn't allow you to worship in other entities. I think that meets the definition of Monotheistic. Um, no. It just means that it is one jealous god out of many. A monotheism suggests that there is only one god, so there would be no reason for such a commandment. There is quite a bit of evidence both in the Old Testament as well as outside of it that Judaism evolved from polytheism.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

13th June 2010, 05:33 PM	#4
L The Detective Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 285	I've never understood the whole "Holy Ghost" thing. What does it actually do in the Bible? What is it's significance? It kinda seems like they invented it because they figured that as long as Jesus was also God, they should have another thing that was also God, so that way God would have 3 parts. Maybe just because 3 is a satisfying number? Cause I mean, if the Bible were a screenplay for instance, "The Holy Ghost" would seem like a completely redundant character... he doesn't actually do anything that the character God couldn't do, so just write him out of the script. One less actor to pay!

13th June 2010, 06:11 PM	#6
Sun Countess Appearance of intelligence Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 3,176	Originally Posted by L The Detective I've never understood the whole "Holy Ghost" thing. What does it actually do in the Bible? What is it's significance? He rapes Mary.

13th June 2010, 08:28 PM	#8
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,617	Even as little kids in Catholic school back in the fifties, the Trinity didn't make sense and we raised essentially the same questions as above. To which the priests said...."It's a Mystery Of Faith." No further discussion.

16th June 2010, 03:01 AM	#9
yomero Muse Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: North of here South of there Posts: 934	The way I see it, the Catholic laity behave as de facto pagans. They pray to and worship a multitude of saints each of whom has a specialized field of miracles. The very images of the saints are often the direct object of veneration, with childish stories explaining the miraculous origin of the idols. The concept that almost all Catholics have of Mary is undistinguishable from that of god. The different representations of the Virgin (Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) are treated by most Catholics as completely different entities for all practical purposes. Even Jesus is fragmented into several gods (Sacred Heart, The Child Jesus, The Lord at the garden, etc.) The official dogma is that saints only intercede before god who is the one that performs the miracles, (I guess the saints are a little like lobbyists at the U.S. Congress.) and that the images are only a reminder of what they represent. Any educated Catholic knows this and will likely answer something like that when asked. Nevertheless, most frequently his feelings and his behavior will be similar to what I mentioned in the first paragraph. There is very little that I know of the Eastern Orthodox churches. My guess is that they are a bit like the Catholic church regarding polytheism and idolatry, but that's only a guess. Does any other poster know the facts?
	Last edited by yomero; 16th June 2010 at 03:04 AM.

16th June 2010, 03:09 AM	#10
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,253	Originally Posted by Hokulele Um, no. It just means that it is one jealous god out of many. A monotheism suggests that there is only one god, so there would be no reason for such a commandment. There is quite a bit of evidence both in the Old Testament as well as outside of it that Judaism evolved from polytheism. According to Islam, There is no God but God, and Mohammed is His Prophet. Also, despite its origins in early polythestic beliefs, I do not believe that you'd get any modern Christian to admit the existence of any other gods. (BTW, the word "Elohim" used in Genesis is a plural noun.)
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

16th June 2010, 03:19 AM	#11
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,667	Originally Posted by L The Detective I've never understood the whole "Holy Ghost" thing. What does it actually do in the Bible? What is it's significance? I think of it as an avatar. It would make a certain amount of sense, a Gods' way of personally doing things on Earth. It would certainly explain how the holy spirit and god are one and the same. McHrozni
McHrozni Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 3,667

16th June 2010, 03:27 AM	#12
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,904	Originally Posted by yomero The way I see it, the Catholic laity behave as de facto pagans. They pray to and worship a multitude of saints each of whom has a specialized field of miracles. The very images of the saints are often the direct object of veneration, with childish stories explaining the miraculous origin of the idols. The concept that almost all Catholics have of Mary is undistinguishable from that of god. The different representations of the Virgin (Lourdes, Fatima, etc.) are treated by most Catholics as completely different entities for all practical purposes. Even Jesus is fragmented into several gods (Sacred Heart, The Child Jesus, The Lord at the garden, etc.) The official dogma is that saints only intercede before god who is the one that performs the miracles, (I guess the saints are a little like lobbyists at the U.S. Congress.) and that the images are only a reminder of what they represent. Any educated Catholic knows this and will likely answer something like that when asked. Nevertheless, most frequently his feelings and his behavior will be similar to what I mentioned in the first paragraph. There is very little that I know of the Eastern Orthodox churches. My guess is that they are a bit like the Catholic church regarding polytheism and idolatry, but that's only a guess. Does any other poster know the facts? But even with that explanation, that's not really all that different from actual polytheism. Polytheists also don't deny the existence of other gods (though they might go for some "oh, but you are the bestest evar!" flattery in actual prayers), even higher gods on the hierarchy. And gods can and do often intercede to other gods for stuff outside their domain. E.g., Bast might put a good word for you with Isis.

16th June 2010, 03:45 AM	#13
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The other side of your screen Posts: 43,253	Far as I know, Catholics don't worship saints. They petition saints to intercede with God on their behalf. Not the same thing.
	__________________ Jadey (in RvB game thread): I just want to take a moment to commend Arth on his role as Parasitic Alien Tumor. I think he really connected with the character and there were times when I forgot that he was just acting. That's the kind of talent that you can't teach.

16th June 2010, 05:15 AM	#14
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,904	Really? Because as far as I know, even the official RCC doctrine doesn't draw that hard a line. What there is is a very poorly defined line between "adoration" or "latria" which is due to God alone, and "veneration" or "dulia" which is fair game for saints too. And the term "worship" is regularly used to mean either. Basically you can't call the saints perfect or such, but otherwise it's very debatable exactly how much worship is merely "veneration" and where does "adoration" begin. And that was the doctrine. If you take a bunch of individual catholics, I doubt that most have a clearly drawn line between even the two kinds of worship and observe that line religiously. But at any rate it still is worship.

16th June 2010, 05:31 AM	#15
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,239	Originally Posted by Markus When I read a description of Christianity, it is often described as being Monotheistic. Is this really the case? Unless I misunderstand, it seems that God is not the only "deity" that exists within the Christian belief system. There is also Satan, as well as various angles and demons. A number of Christians I speak with state that they believe in these beings (well, at the very least they admit to believing in Satan). These beings apparently have powers beyond that of any creature or human on earth, so surely they fit the definition of "deity". Since multiple deities exist, wouldn't that make Christianity polytheistic? I believe that the definition of polytheism states that one only needs to "believe" the deities exits. They don't have to worship them. Due to this, could Christianity actually be considered polytheistic? Most christians except Mormons think that God the father, God the son and God the Holy Ghost are somehow one and the same person. I don't understand it myself.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

16th June 2010, 05:58 AM	#16
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,894	Originally Posted by Newtons Bit From the Athanasian Creed: And from the Ten commandments: By Christian dogma, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all one entity. I think that's a pretty clear statement of belief in one God. A confusing one, but still just One. He also doesn't allow you to worship in other entities. I think that meets the definition of Monotheistic. So.... Now to "evil" we can add "schizophrenic" and "split personality" to the christian religion ? I mean, when one say "oh father why have you forsaken me ?" one expect that the father and self are not the same entity. That all 3 in one reek of the "Oh damn, our worshipper worship Jesus more than god, it is idolatry, what shall we do now ? Oh yeah I know let us pretend they are all the same in 1".
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

16th June 2010, 06:02 AM	#17
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,894	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Far as I know, Catholics don't worship saints. They petition saints to intercede with God on their behalf. Not the same thing. Yeah that is the official explanation. But knowing all the cathos I met back in France, or even in my family, their prayer quite often clearly demonstrate that they ask the SAINT to do the act, and not to intercede in their favor.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

16th June 2010, 06:14 AM	#18
Personal Grudge Thinker Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 197	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Most christians except Mormons think that God the father, God the son and God the Holy Ghost are somehow one and the same person. I don't understand it myself. That is my experience as well. As a former Mormon, I would have to state that the LDS denomination of Christianity is definitely polytheistic. After all, Mormons believe they themselves will become gods eventually. We are just going through the same process the God did himself. God was a mortal man that, through progression and growth, became the deity he is now. Mormons who follow the LDS doctrine will, after death, move on to the Celestial Kingdom. In this place, the same progression and growth may occur for these individuals... thereby becoming the same as God is now. I have to admit, I rather like this fairy tale more than the others spread by other Christian denominations.
Personal Grudge Thinker Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 197

16th June 2010, 07:21 AM	#19
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 13,678	The history of religion is full of mergings and splittings of various deities at various times, in various places. What we see, today, is the consequence of all that history and heritage. Sometimes, it gets so "messy" that a sense of "unified grand plan" becomes appealing, so assurances of monotheism are introduced into the mix.
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

16th June 2010, 09:04 AM	#20
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by Markus When I read a description of Christianity, it is often described as being Monotheistic. Is this really the case? Unless I misunderstand, it seems that God is not the only "deity" that exists within the Christian belief system. There is also Satan, as well as various angles and demons. A number of Christians I speak with state that they believe in these beings (well, at the very least they admit to believing in Satan). These beings apparently have powers beyond that of any creature or human on earth, so surely they fit the definition of "deity". Since multiple deities exist, wouldn't that make Christianity polytheistic? I believe that the definition of polytheism states that one only needs to "believe" the deities exits. They don't have to worship them. Due to this, could Christianity actually be considered polytheistic? The Angels are considered divine messengers, i.e. they carry messages from the Divinity but are not actually divine themselves. Demons are not considered divine, Satan is still regarded as an Angel, and in Judaism still does Gods bidding, its a Christian paradigm that he lost his grace So there is only one God (divinity) that is worshipped, monotheists do also worship angels but only in as much as they are interceding aspects of the one true God. now if you'd asked, why is Christianity monotheistic, thats a much better and larger question, but in a nutshell, proto monotheism isn't unique to Judaism, the idea of there being one supreme God was rampant across many ancient cultures with all the other Gods regarded as less supreme. Judaism was founded mainly on ideas from Akkadian theology during the Babylonian Diaspora. Close hebrew contemporaries of the Judiac monotheism formation period actually state this themselves, that the angels were derived from the lesser Gods of Babylonia and that all the names of the angels originally sprang from that source. Its still quite interesting from a linguistic stanpoint that many of the original Angelic names translate directly in babylonian to some meaning connected with the specific role, but I won't bore you with it