Scientists 1...'Native' Americans.0

crimresearch · 5th February 2004, 12:27 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ennewick_man_2

Hexxenhammer · 5th February 2004, 01:53 PM

Cool. Kennewick man is an enigma that really needs to be studied. I understand the tribe's position, but they're basing their argument on a creation story just like the fundies trying to stop the teaching of evolution.

Agammamon · 6th February 2004, 05:22 AM

. . ."The 9th Circuit turned the statute on its head," Smith said. "The law Congress passed gives tribes the right to prevent the study of remains. What the 9th Circuit seems to have done is to require the tribes to prove the remains are Native American before the statute applies." . . .

So what, is this guy implying that he feels that they should be able to prevent the study of any remains they feel like, whether or not they are Native American?

Hand Bent Spoon · 6th February 2004, 06:11 AM

Yes, we need to be careful not to embrace the same anti-intellectualism that ensured that the native peoples of the Americas would be unable to defend thier way of life, thereby having their cultures, for all intents and purposes destroyed.

We make the same mistake of embracing anti-intellecualism at our own peril.

MRC_Hans · 6th February 2004, 06:31 AM

Funny thing this. In my neck of the woods, human remains, which are potentially ancestors of anybody here, can be studied for scientific purposes even after a short span of times... a century or so.

Why are these people not interested in their own history?

Hans

crimresearch · 6th February 2004, 01:09 PM

IIRC, didn't the examinations done when the remains were first uncovered, imply evidence which may have challenged the conventional wisdom that today's Native Americans were the original inhabitants of the American continent?
Perhaps that had something to do with the claims of ancestral sanctity for non-ancestral remains.

Paul Nunis

Pyrrho · 7th February 2004, 06:56 AM

Interesting. It would seem that in order to determine if the bones should be subjected to scientific study or returned to the Native Americans and not be scientifically studied, they had to be scientifically studied.

Quote:

Interior Department scientists concluded the remains were unlike those of any known modern Indians but it did not rule out some distant biological connection. The appeals court, however, said there must be a more recent link to justify returning the bones and preventing any scientific study.

The very thing they sought to prevent has been done.

As far as I know, the Native Americans view these bones as bones of their ancestors, and are thus worthy of respect, if not reverence.

rachaella · 7th February 2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Interesting. It would seem that in order to determine if the bones should be subjected to scientific study or returned to the Native Americans and not be scientifically studied, they had to be scientifically studied.

The very thing they sought to prevent has been done.

As far as I know, the Native Americans view these bones as bones of their ancestors, and are thus worthy of respect, if not reverence.

I think any human bones are worthy of respect if not reverence, what makes American Indian bones any different? Scientific inquiry must not be sacrificed, nor should respect for human remains be sacrificed.

kittynh · 7th February 2004, 12:20 PM

well, and let's not act like all Native Americans followed the same religious beliefs. The tribes and their beliefs are totally diverse. For some tribes, the bones were considered sacred. Other tribes were into burning remains - burial was not a religious option. Other tribes left remains to be picked over by birds. Lots of variety. don't blame them for wanting to yank around the government some, but trust me, most East Coast tribes are very very "diluted". Not quite the same unbroken cultural line as the Western Natives.

Jeff Corey · 7th February 2004, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kittynh
... trust me, most East Coast tribes are very very "diluted". Not quite the same unbroken cultural line as the Western Natives.

It's diluted in my family. Too diluted to get a piece of the Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods action, even though some of my family is originally from around there.

Hexxenhammer · 9th February 2004, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crimresearch
IIRC, didn't the examinations done when the remains were first uncovered, imply evidence which may have challenged the conventional wisdom that today's Native Americans were the original inhabitants of the American continent?
Perhaps that had something to do with the claims of ancestral sanctity for non-ancestral remains.

Paul Nunis

More likely if Kennewick man doesn't seem to have much in common with native american phenotypes it means that there were maybe several different populations that migrated to North America over the land bridge. It's not like they knew it was a land bridge and it was there for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Ove · 10th February 2004, 10:55 PM

Wasn't he shot too? I believe they found an arrowhead in him. It would somehow tamper with the image of the "peacefull native living in harmony".

But seriously it is a giant leap for sience. The mere fact that ancient superstition has upheld a sientific investigation for quite soem years now is schocking. I would like to se a sun worshipper try to stop the opening of a mummy.

I realise that when events are close, like Titanic, there are some sentiments that can be stirred but on the other hand sentiments must never get in the way of sience. Some people sugessted f.inst. that the wreck of "Estonia" should be covered with concrete and that way "creating a chapel under the waves" in respect of the dead "(400+).

I DO respect the dead but i also find it is quite vital that we get that ship properly investigated or at least that we do not make such an investigation impossible. (i know the cause of the accident is more or less established but rumours are stil flying).

5th February 2004, 12:27 PM	#1
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Scientists 1...'Native' Americans.0 http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ennewick_man_2
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

5th February 2004, 01:53 PM	#2
Hexxenhammer Malleus Malefactorum Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,124	Cool. Kennewick man is an enigma that really needs to be studied. I understand the tribe's position, but they're basing their argument on a creation story just like the fundies trying to stop the teaching of evolution.
	__________________ Georgia's board of education approved the plan that allows teachers to keep using the word 'Evolution' when teaching biology. Though, as a compromise, dinosaurs are now called 'Jesus Horses.'--Jimmy Fallon on Weekend Update "I mean, if you buy into a religion, you're pretty much kissing good by(sic) critical thinking, aren't you?" --Riddick. Amen to that, brother. Gamers! Ultimate RPG Thread has a new home at skepticalcommunity! Check it out!

6th February 2004, 05:22 AM	#3
Agammamon Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,385	. . ."The 9th Circuit turned the statute on its head," Smith said. "The law Congress passed gives tribes the right to prevent the study of remains. What the 9th Circuit seems to have done is to require the tribes to prove the remains are Native American before the statute applies." . . . So what, is this guy implying that he feels that they should be able to prevent the study of any remains they feel like, whether or not they are Native American?
	__________________ It will be a great day when the US Air Force has all the bombs it needs and the NEA has to hold a bake sale in order to pay its lobbyists.

6th February 2004, 06:11 AM	#4
Hand Bent Spoon Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 378	Yes, we need to be careful not to embrace the same anti-intellectualism that ensured that the native peoples of the Americas would be unable to defend thier way of life, thereby having their cultures, for all intents and purposes destroyed. We make the same mistake of embracing anti-intellecualism at our own peril.
Hand Bent Spoon Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 378

6th February 2004, 06:31 AM	#5
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,600	Funny thing this. In my neck of the woods, human remains, which are potentially ancestors of anybody here, can be studied for scientific purposes even after a short span of times... a century or so. Why are these people not interested in their own history? Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

6th February 2004, 01:09 PM	#6
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	IIRC, didn't the examinations done when the remains were first uncovered, imply evidence which may have challenged the conventional wisdom that today's Native Americans were the original inhabitants of the American continent? Perhaps that had something to do with the claims of ancestral sanctity for non-ancestral remains. Paul Nunis
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

7th February 2004, 06:56 AM	#7
Pyrrho Man in Black Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,678	Interesting. It would seem that in order to determine if the bones should be subjected to scientific study or returned to the Native Americans and not be scientifically studied, they had to be scientifically studied. Quote: Interior Department scientists concluded the remains were unlike those of any known modern Indians but it did not rule out some distant biological connection. The appeals court, however, said there must be a more recent link to justify returning the bones and preventing any scientific study. The very thing they sought to prevent has been done. As far as I know, the Native Americans view these bones as bones of their ancestors, and are thus worthy of respect, if not reverence.
Pyrrho Man in Black Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,678	__________________ The Skeptics Society \| The Skeptics Society Forum \| Skepticality Promoting SCIENCE and CRITICAL THINKING

7th February 2004, 11:26 AM	#8
rachaella Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: State College, PA but my heart will remain in Rochester, NY for quite some time Posts: 467	Quote: Originally posted by Pyrrho Interesting. It would seem that in order to determine if the bones should be subjected to scientific study or returned to the Native Americans and not be scientifically studied, they had to be scientifically studied. The very thing they sought to prevent has been done. As far as I know, the Native Americans view these bones as bones of their ancestors, and are thus worthy of respect, if not reverence. I think any human bones are worthy of respect if not reverence, what makes American Indian bones any different? Scientific inquiry must not be sacrificed, nor should respect for human remains be sacrificed.
	__________________ The universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. - E.Philpotts If the benefits of getting married boil down to joining an exclusive club for straight people, perhaps its time to reconsider getting married - Me

7th February 2004, 12:20 PM	#9
kittynh The Hupsu Detective auctioneer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: If I told the aliens could find me, and you know they read this forum Posts: 22,705	well, and let's not act like all Native Americans followed the same religious beliefs. The tribes and their beliefs are totally diverse. For some tribes, the bones were considered sacred. Other tribes were into burning remains - burial was not a religious option. Other tribes left remains to be picked over by birds. Lots of variety. don't blame them for wanting to yank around the government some, but trust me, most East Coast tribes are very very "diluted". Not quite the same unbroken cultural line as the Western Natives.
	__________________ WWW.BADALIEN.ORG - not all the buttons work yet, and the science content is coming...but it's ALIVE!

7th February 2004, 02:58 PM	#10
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,794	Quote: Originally posted by kittynh ... trust me, most East Coast tribes are very very "diluted". Not quite the same unbroken cultural line as the Western Natives. It's diluted in my family. Too diluted to get a piece of the Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods action, even though some of my family is originally from around there.

9th February 2004, 07:32 AM	#11
Hexxenhammer Malleus Malefactorum Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,124	Quote: Originally posted by crimresearch IIRC, didn't the examinations done when the remains were first uncovered, imply evidence which may have challenged the conventional wisdom that today's Native Americans were the original inhabitants of the American continent? Perhaps that had something to do with the claims of ancestral sanctity for non-ancestral remains. Paul Nunis More likely if Kennewick man doesn't seem to have much in common with native american phenotypes it means that there were maybe several different populations that migrated to North America over the land bridge. It's not like they knew it was a land bridge and it was there for hundreds if not thousands of years.
	__________________ Georgia's board of education approved the plan that allows teachers to keep using the word 'Evolution' when teaching biology. Though, as a compromise, dinosaurs are now called 'Jesus Horses.'--Jimmy Fallon on Weekend Update "I mean, if you buy into a religion, you're pretty much kissing good by(sic) critical thinking, aren't you?" --Riddick. Amen to that, brother. Gamers! Ultimate RPG Thread has a new home at skepticalcommunity! Check it out!

10th February 2004, 10:55 PM	#12
Ove Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,881	Wasn't he shot too? I believe they found an arrowhead in him. It would somehow tamper with the image of the "peacefull native living in harmony". But seriously it is a giant leap for sience. The mere fact that ancient superstition has upheld a sientific investigation for quite soem years now is schocking. I would like to se a sun worshipper try to stop the opening of a mummy. I realise that when events are close, like Titanic, there are some sentiments that can be stirred but on the other hand sentiments must never get in the way of sience. Some people sugessted f.inst. that the wreck of "Estonia" should be covered with concrete and that way "creating a chapel under the waves" in respect of the dead "(400+). I DO respect the dead but i also find it is quite vital that we get that ship properly investigated or at least that we do not make such an investigation impossible. (i know the cause of the accident is more or less established but rumours are stil flying).
	__________________ I am sitting here, completely surrounded by NO BEER..... (Onslow)