My Hajj

Shaikh Saiid Al-Shar · 9th February 2004, 08:24 AM

On this year I have made the dutiful walk to Mecca with five million good Muslims, all praise and glory be to God for that. 251 pilgrims were martyred while fighting the devil near the pillars, peace be upon them. I can tell of this time - a time of euphoria under the eyes of the Almighty on that bridge. Allah was inciting them to go. They became martyrs, may Allah bless their souls.

Samus · 9th February 2004, 08:46 AM

Cool. Do your feet hurt?

El Greco · 9th February 2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaikh Saiid Al-Shar
251 pilgrims were martyred while fighting the devil near the pillars

Did they manage to kill the devil ?

ManfredVonRichthoffen · 9th February 2004, 09:05 AM

My friend, let me give you a little advice. When picking a magical, invisible fellow to believe in, choose one that allows you to eat pulled pork. It truly is a gift from god.

Pirate_Lad · 9th February 2004, 09:24 AM

That sneaky ol' devil...he only made it look like those scores of dead muslims were trampled by fellow pilgrims.

richardm · 9th February 2004, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pirate_Lad
That sneaky ol' devil...he only made it look like those scores of dead muslims were trampled by fellow pilgrims.

That's devils for you. Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky!

Seriously though. To be a martyr doesn't there have to be a voluntary element? Being killed in an accident is unfortunate, and I think it's genuinely sad that it happened, but applying the "martyr" moniker seems to me to demean those people who for whatever reason stuck to their principles up to death. Being accidentally trampled by a mob doesn't seem very principled to me.

ManfredVonRichthoffen · 9th February 2004, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm

That's devils for you. Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky!

Seriously though. To be a martyr doesn't there have to be a voluntary element? Being killed in an accident is unfortunate, and I think it's genuinely sad that it happened, but applying the "martyr" moniker seems to me to demean those people who for whatever reason stuck to their principles up to death. Being accidentally trampled by a mob doesn't seem very principled to me.

No virgins for you! Come back, one year!

hgc · 9th February 2004, 10:02 AM

Just one question: Is the continued, reprehensible incompetence of the authorities responsible crowd control in Mecca due to God's will or to Satan's machinations?

Maledict · 9th February 2004, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pirate_Lad
That sneaky ol' devil...he only made it look like those scores of dead muslims were trampled by fellow pilgrims.

No no no no no! You've got it all wrong! All of you! Don't you see?! The signs are all there!! This is truely the work of the Zzarzh reptillian conspiracy! They just WANT you to believe that this was truely an accident! Their Head Quarters is located right at the center of the Mosque itself in that black statuesque box! See how they all walk around it mindlessly? IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!! THE GOVERNMENT ARE ON TO ME! Smurfs! Smurfs!

richardm · 9th February 2004, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
No virgins for you! Come back, one year!

Dammit, not again!

geni · 9th February 2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
My friend, let me give you a little advice. When picking a magical, invisible fellow to believe in, choose one that allows you to eat pulled pork. It truly is a gift from god.

One that laets you drink beer is pretty high on the list as well.

Soapy Sam · 9th February 2004, 10:27 AM

hgc said-"
Just one question: Is the continued, reprehensible incompetence of the authorities responsible [for] crowd control in Mecca due to God's will or to Satan's machinations?"

Let's not go blaming Allah or Satan. You forgot the simpler option. The authorities responsible are Saudis. In essence this means the men "in charge" will recline in air conditioned offices and the entire show will be run by one stressed-out Pakistani who hasn't slept in three weeks.

They have to realise that with air travel making the Haj more accessible, they need to do something about this.(*And they have done a lot, if truth be told). But, like the free spirits of this forum, pilgrims don't want too much regulation. If the whole thing becomes too controlled and easy, it loses any value it may be perceived to have as a trial of will and a test of faith.

Peter Jenkins · 9th February 2004, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shaikh Saiid Al-Shar
On this year I have made the dutiful walk to Mecca with five million good Muslims, all praise and glory be to God for that. 251 pilgrims were martyred while fighting the devil near the pillars, peace be upon them. I can tell of this time - a time of euphoria under the eyes of the Almighty on that bridge. Allah was inciting them to go. They became martyrs, may Allah bless their souls.

Seems like that ol' ba$**rd God/Allah is pulling his 'Job' trick again. was it only 251? I seem to recall 255 dead, being mentioned earlier.
Anyway, in this case, it looks like, Satan 251: Allah 0

hgc · 9th February 2004, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
...

Let's not go blaming Allah or Satan. You forgot the simpler option. The authorities responsible are Saudis. ...

The Saudi family actually shares power with the Wahhabist clerics. I think it's one of them that holds the position of Hajj Minister. I don't have a link to the quote, but this is the creepy bastard that claims his own malfeasence is God's will.

Quote:

They have to realise that with air travel making the Haj more accessible, they need to do something about this.(*And they have done a lot, if truth be told). But, like the free spirits of this forum, pilgrims don't want too much regulation. If the whole thing becomes too controlled and easy, it loses any value it may be perceived to have as a trial of will and a test of faith.

Sounds like a fancy way of saying life is cheap.

Cleon · 9th February 2004, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
Seriously though. To be a martyr doesn't there have to be a voluntary element? Being killed in an accident is unfortunate, and I think it's genuinely sad that it happened, but applying the "martyr" moniker seems to me to demean those people who for whatever reason stuck to their principles up to death. Being accidentally trampled by a mob doesn't seem very principled to me.

It's "martyr" in English, in Arabic it's "shahid." The word doesn't translate well; "martyr" is the closest you can really come. A shahid is one who dies violently, usually in battle. It doesn't have the moral overtones that the English does.

DaChew · 9th February 2004, 11:47 AM

You'd think with all of this stoning of the devil and rock throwing Palestinians, the muslim world could come up with one good Major League pitcher. All the news feeds I've seen show the same thing: very little windup and no follow through. I tell you what, you give me ten minutes with the muslims and I bet I could get some of them to bring the heat.

ManfredVonRichthoffen · 9th February 2004, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni

One that laets you drink beer is pretty high on the list as well.

Are you telling me that there is a god who forbids beer and that he actually has followers?

Marc · 9th February 2004, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaChew
You'd think with all of this stoning of the devil and rock throwing Palestinians, the muslim world could come up with one good Major League pitcher. All the news feeds I've seen show the same thing: very little windup and no follow through. I tell you what, you give me ten minutes with the muslims and I bet I could get some of them to bring the heat.

Well they could have some good pitcher. But unfortunatly they are all trained to hit the batter.

Andonyx · 9th February 2004, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaChew
You'd think with all of this stoning of the devil and rock throwing Palestinians, the muslim world could come up with one good Major League pitcher. All the news feeds I've seen show the same thing: very little windup and no follow through. I tell you what, you give me ten minutes with the muslims and I bet I could get some of them to bring the heat.

Have you SEEN the popular sport over there?!?!?

http://www.seanbaby.com/news/buzkashi.htm

Quote:

The first thing you need for Buzkashi, besides a warrior soul prepared for death, is the game ball or "boz." To prepare it, find a goat. Now chop off its head and most of its legs. This probably won't finish it off... Afghani goats are raised on soil composed of 80 percent land mine and require either intense persistence or voodoo to kill. So after the chopping, you need to submerge it in cold water for 24 hours. This helps toughen it up so the corpse doesn't fall apart during gameplay. And before you ask, yes, this is the exact same technique that Joseph Stalin and Hitler would have invented if they dictated the policy of sporting goods manufacturing and were goats.

geni · 9th February 2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen
Are you telling me that there is a god who forbids beer and that he actually has followers?

Well Islam forbids all forms of alcohol so I suspose alcohol free beer might be ok but other than that beer is forbiden.

Soapy Sam · 9th February 2004, 12:28 PM

hgc-

"Sounds like a fancy way of saying life is cheap."

Life is cheap. You can get a new kid when you can't afford a hat.
I once worked with a Saudi who had a new baby. Female. She cried a lot. Kept him awake.

He put her in a drawer, which was nice and quiet. She suffocated.
M'allish. Insh'Allah.
By his own standards, he truly wasn't a bad guy. It was a mistake. He acknowledged that. But he slept better at nights. There would be more kids. (There were).

Different people do not have the same standards. It would be foolish to expect it. My serious advice to any western muslim who goes on Haj is to realise that because he shares a religion with the people of Arabia does not mean they share his other cultural assumptions. Some things in life are dangerous because the people who do them choose to have it that way. I think it's daft. You think it's daft. That's why we don't go.

Cleon · 9th February 2004, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni

Well Islam forbids all forms of alcohol so I suspose alcohol free beer might be ok but other than that beer is forbiden.

Just hardcore Islam--most of the Muslims I know love the stuff.

In Quran, I believe, Muhammed admonished that alcoholism was a wicked sickness; thus some branches of Islam ban alcohol. It's the "fence around the law" theory, along the same lines that "don't cook a kid [meaning GOAT] in the milk of its mother" transformed into "don't eat milk and meat together" for Judaism.

ManfredVonRichthoffen · 9th February 2004, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni

Well Islam forbids all forms of alcohol so I suspose alcohol free beer might be ok but other than that beer is forbiden.

Ah. So now I understand 9/11. It is much easier to commit suicide and mass murder when you have never tasted, or will never taste again, beer and pulled pork.

geni · 9th February 2004, 12:39 PM

Alcohol is pretty much banned if you are a muslim in in either Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. I don't know about other countries.

LW · 9th February 2004, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geni
Alcohol is pretty much banned if you are a muslim in in either Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. I don't know about other countries.

At least when I lived in Turkey (mid 80s) they had a much more relaxed attitude: pretty much every shop sold beer and raki.

9th February 2004, 08:24 AM	#1
Shaikh Saiid Al-Shar New Blood Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 5	My Hajj On this year I have made the dutiful walk to Mecca with five million good Muslims, all praise and glory be to God for that. 251 pilgrims were martyred while fighting the devil near the pillars, peace be upon them. I can tell of this time - a time of euphoria under the eyes of the Almighty on that bridge. Allah was inciting them to go. They became martyrs, may Allah bless their souls.

9th February 2004, 08:46 AM	#2
Samus space hunter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,003	Cool. Do your feet hurt?
Samus space hunter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,003

9th February 2004, 08:57 AM	#3
El Greco Summer worshipper Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Παρά θιν'αλός Posts: 14,255	Re: My Hajj Quote: Originally posted by Shaikh Saiid Al-Shar 251 pilgrims were martyred while fighting the devil near the pillars Did they manage to kill the devil ?
	__________________ "Robbing a bank is no crime compared to owning one" - Bertolt Brecht "Let it go and come to bed already, El Greco" - MoeFaux

9th February 2004, 09:24 AM	#5
Pirate_Lad Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,262	That sneaky ol' devil...he only made it look like those scores of dead muslims were trampled by fellow pilgrims.
	__________________ "It could be that the true purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others." "There are people in the world so hungry, that God cannot appear to them except in the form of bread." -- Charles Dickens

9th February 2004, 09:44 AM	#6
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by Pirate_Lad *That sneaky ol' devil...he only made it look* like those scores of dead muslims were trampled by fellow pilgrims.** That's devils for you. Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky! Seriously though. To be a martyr doesn't there have to be a voluntary element? Being killed in an accident is unfortunate, and I think it's genuinely sad that it happened, but applying the "martyr" moniker seems to me to demean those people who for whatever reason stuck to their principles up to death. Being accidentally trampled by a mob doesn't seem very principled to me.
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

9th February 2004, 09:05 AM	#4
ManfredVonRichthoffen Mook Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,513	My friend, let me give you a little advice. When picking a magical, invisible fellow to believe in, choose one that allows you to eat pulled pork. It truly is a gift from god.

9th February 2004, 10:00 AM	#7
ManfredVonRichthoffen Mook Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,513	Quote: Originally posted by richardm That's devils for you. Sneaky, sneaky, sneaky! Seriously though. To be a martyr doesn't there have to be a voluntary element? Being killed in an accident is unfortunate, and I think it's genuinely sad that it happened, but applying the "martyr" moniker seems to me to demean those people who for whatever reason stuck to their principles up to death. Being accidentally trampled by a mob doesn't seem very principled to me. No virgins for you! Come back, one year!

9th February 2004, 10:02 AM	#8
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,984	Just one question: Is the continued, reprehensible incompetence of the authorities responsible crowd control in Mecca due to God's will or to Satan's machinations?

9th February 2004, 10:03 AM	#9
Maledict Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: City of Dis Posts: 520	Quote: Originally posted by Pirate_Lad *That sneaky ol' devil...he only made it look* like those scores of dead muslims were trampled by fellow pilgrims. No no no no no! You've got it all wrong! All of you! Don't you see?! The signs are all there!! This is truely the work of the Zzarzh reptillian conspiracy! They just WANT** you to believe that this was truely an accident! Their Head Quarters is located right at the center of the Mosque itself in that black statuesque box! See how they all walk around it mindlessly? IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!!! THE GOVERNMENT ARE ON TO ME! Smurfs! Smurfs!
	__________________ Formerly known as "RabbiSatan" "Never regret thy fall from grace, O' spirit of Icarian flight, for the greatest tragedy of them all to face, is to never feel the burning bright" \| Ca.org Sketchbook \| Live Stream \| Website \|

9th February 2004, 10:03 AM	#10
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	Quote: Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen No virgins for you! Come back, one year! Dammit, not again!
richardm Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,270	__________________ Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

9th February 2004, 10:16 AM	#11
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,549	Quote: Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen My friend, let me give you a little advice. When picking a magical, invisible fellow to believe in, choose one that allows you to eat pulled pork. It truly is a gift from god. One that laets you drink beer is pretty high on the list as well.

9th February 2004, 10:27 AM	#12
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	hgc said-" Just one question: Is the continued, reprehensible incompetence of the authorities responsible [for] crowd control in Mecca due to God's will or to Satan's machinations?" Let's not go blaming Allah or Satan. You forgot the simpler option. The authorities responsible are Saudis. In essence this means the men "in charge" will recline in air conditioned offices and the entire show will be run by one stressed-out Pakistani who hasn't slept in three weeks. They have to realise that with air travel making the Haj more accessible, they need to do something about this.(*And they have done a lot, if truth be told). But, like the free spirits of this forum, pilgrims don't want too much regulation. If the whole thing becomes too controlled and easy, it loses any value it may be perceived to have as a trial of will and a test of faith.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

9th February 2004, 10:37 AM	#13
Peter Jenkins Muse Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 561	Re: My Hajj Quote: Originally posted by Shaikh Saiid Al-Shar On this year I have made the dutiful walk to Mecca with five million good Muslims, all praise and glory be to God for that. 251 pilgrims were martyred while fighting the devil near the pillars, peace be upon them. I can tell of this time - a time of euphoria under the eyes of the Almighty on that bridge. Allah was inciting them to go. They became martyrs, may Allah bless their souls. Seems like that ol' ba$**rd God/Allah is pulling his 'Job' trick again. was it only 251? I seem to recall 255 dead, being mentioned earlier. Anyway, in this case, it looks like, Satan 251: Allah 0
Peter Jenkins Muse Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 561

9th February 2004, 10:39 AM	#14
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,984	Quote: Originally posted by Soapy Sam ... Let's not go blaming Allah or Satan. You forgot the simpler option. The authorities responsible are Saudis. ... The Saudi family actually shares power with the Wahhabist clerics. I think it's one of them that holds the position of Hajj Minister. I don't have a link to the quote, but this is the creepy bastard that claims his own malfeasence is God's will. Quote: They have to realise that with air travel making the Haj more accessible, they need to do something about this.(And they have done a lot, if truth be told). But, like the free spirits of this forum, pilgrims don't want too much regulation. If the whole thing becomes too controlled and easy, it loses any value it may be perceived to have as a trial of will and a test of faith. Sounds like a fancy way of saying life is cheap*.

9th February 2004, 11:21 AM	#15
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,503	Quote: Originally posted by richardm Seriously though. To be a martyr doesn't there have to be a voluntary element? Being killed in an accident is unfortunate, and I think it's genuinely sad that it happened, but applying the "martyr" moniker seems to me to demean those people who for whatever reason stuck to their principles up to death. Being accidentally trampled by a mob doesn't seem very principled to me. It's "martyr" in English, in Arabic it's "shahid." The word doesn't translate well; "martyr" is the closest you can really come. A shahid is one who dies violently, usually in battle. It doesn't have the moral overtones that the English does.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

9th February 2004, 11:47 AM	#16
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043	You'd think with all of this stoning of the devil and rock throwing Palestinians, the muslim world could come up with one good Major League pitcher. All the news feeds I've seen show the same thing: very little windup and no follow through. I tell you what, you give me ten minutes with the muslims and I bet I could get some of them to bring the heat.
DaChew Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 1,043

9th February 2004, 12:00 PM	#17
ManfredVonRichthoffen Mook Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,513	Quote: Originally posted by geni One that laets you drink beer is pretty high on the list as well. Are you telling me that there is a god who forbids beer and that he actually has followers?

9th February 2004, 12:07 PM	#18
Marc Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,165	Quote: Originally posted by DaChew You'd think with all of this stoning of the devil and rock throwing Palestinians, the muslim world could come up with one good Major League pitcher. All the news feeds I've seen show the same thing: very little windup and no follow through. I tell you what, you give me ten minutes with the muslims and I bet I could get some of them to bring the heat. Well they could have some good pitcher. But unfortunatly they are all trained to hit the batter.
Marc Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,165	__________________ So many cults, not enough comets. A child of 5 could understand this! Quick, someone fetch a child of 5! "Scientology is evil; its techniques are evil; its practice is a serious threat to the community, medically, morally, and socially; and its adherents are sadly deluded and often mentally ill... (Scientology is) the world's largest organization of unqualified persons engaged in the practice of dangerous techniques which masquerade as mental therapy." Justice Anderson, Supreme Court of Victoria, Australia

9th February 2004, 12:07 PM	#19
Andonyx Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,834	Quote: Originally posted by DaChew You'd think with all of this stoning of the devil and rock throwing Palestinians, the muslim world could come up with one good Major League pitcher. All the news feeds I've seen show the same thing: very little windup and no follow through. I tell you what, you give me ten minutes with the muslims and I bet I could get some of them to bring the heat. Have you SEEN the popular sport over there?!?!? http://www.seanbaby.com/news/buzkashi.htm Quote: The first thing you need for Buzkashi, besides a warrior soul prepared for death, is the game ball or "boz." To prepare it, find a goat. Now chop off its head and most of its legs. This probably won't finish it off... Afghani goats are raised on soil composed of 80 percent land mine and require either intense persistence or voodoo to kill. So after the chopping, you need to submerge it in cold water for 24 hours. This helps toughen it up so the corpse doesn't fall apart during gameplay. And before you ask, yes, this is the exact same technique that Joseph Stalin and Hitler would have invented if they dictated the policy of sporting goods manufacturing and were goats.
Andonyx Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,834	__________________ Andonyx www.andonyx.com Shy Gypsy Slyly Shyly Tryst By My Crypt.

9th February 2004, 12:13 PM	#20
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,549	Quote: Originally posted by ManfredVonRichthoffen Are you telling me that there is a god who forbids beer and that he actually has followers? Well Islam forbids all forms of alcohol so I suspose alcohol free beer might be ok but other than that beer is forbiden.

9th February 2004, 12:28 PM	#21
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	hgc- "Sounds like a fancy way of saying life is cheap." Life is cheap. You can get a new kid when you can't afford a hat. I once worked with a Saudi who had a new baby. Female. She cried a lot. Kept him awake. He put her in a drawer, which was nice and quiet. She suffocated. M'allish. Insh'Allah. By his own standards, he truly wasn't a bad guy. It was a mistake. He acknowledged that. But he slept better at nights. There would be more kids. (There were). Different people do not have the same standards. It would be foolish to expect it. My serious advice to any western muslim who goes on Haj is to realise that because he shares a religion with the people of Arabia does not mean they share his other cultural assumptions. Some things in life are dangerous because the people who do them choose to have it that way. I think it's daft. You think it's daft. That's why we don't go.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

9th February 2004, 12:29 PM	#22
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,503	Quote: Originally posted by geni Well Islam forbids all forms of alcohol so I suspose alcohol free beer might be ok but other than that beer is forbiden. Just hardcore Islam--most of the Muslims I know love the stuff. In Quran, I believe, Muhammed admonished that alcoholism was a wicked sickness; thus some branches of Islam ban alcohol. It's the "fence around the law" theory, along the same lines that "don't cook a kid [meaning GOAT] in the milk of its mother" transformed into "don't eat milk and meat together" for Judaism.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

9th February 2004, 12:34 PM	#23
ManfredVonRichthoffen Mook Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,513	Quote: Originally posted by geni Well Islam forbids all forms of alcohol so I suspose alcohol free beer might be ok but other than that beer is forbiden. Ah. So now I understand 9/11. It is much easier to commit suicide and mass murder when you have never tasted, or will never taste again, beer and pulled pork.

9th February 2004, 12:39 PM	#24
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 26,549	Alcohol is pretty much banned if you are a muslim in in either Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. I don't know about other countries.

9th February 2004, 02:09 PM	#25
LW Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: 60°N 25°E Posts: 2,800	Quote: Originally posted by geni Alcohol is pretty much banned if you are a muslim in in either Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. I don't know about other countries. At least when I lived in Turkey (mid 80s) they had a much more relaxed attitude: pretty much every shop sold beer and raki.