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Tags alcoholics anonymous , alcoholism , treatment programs

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Old 18th July 2010, 05:55 AM   #1
Nanny Ogg
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Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

I'm dealing with a spouse who has alcohol issues. His first therapist (social worker) told him to go to a Beginner's AA meeting, and to "Keep An Open Mind."

He went, and was instantly uncomfortable. Not only was Jesus Christ mentioned constantly as the Savior, but the meeting ended with, "The Lord's Prayer."

He related this to the social worker, who berated him for not going to a Beginner's meeting. (Which it WAS listed as.) And then told him that, "The Lord's Prayer" is not really religious, anyway.

My husband now sees a psychologist who specializes in cognitive behavior and doesn't push AA.

Now I'm furious that MY new therapist is telling me that AA would be a good resource for my husband. "It's not religious, it's spiritual," and "Your higher power can be anything at all, the ocean, even yourself."

I'm not confrontational, and I tried to remember some of the advice I've received here about debating. I told her that I had done research on AA, that it had a 5% success rate, and that the Supreme Court had ruled that it was religious. Then I started to get emotional and told her that it was all based on a Buchmanite group designed to get people to accept Christ as the Savior, and that the Higher Power stuff was nonsense, since sure, it starts out as, "the ocean," but ends up referring to God. And the "higher power" definitely CANNOT be yourself, since it has to be some outside force. As Henry Ford said of his cars, you can have any color you want so long as it's black. Well, you can have any Higher Power you want so long as it's God.

As former Catholics, my husband and I tend to get a bit touchy when religion is sold to us. It is very difficult to get away from, "Magical Thinking," and I've been working so hard to restructure my thoughts, to think more critically, to learn about logic, and to question things. And it took a lot for me to "talk back" to my therapist about this, and I still feel guilty, like I should just accept it as good advice. Such is the mark that being a good little Catholic girl leaves on person.

I feel so angry that the majority of people don't question AA at all.
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Old 18th July 2010, 06:12 AM   #2
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Youd be right. Its a religious group for the reasons you mentioned. How could it not be?
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Old 18th July 2010, 06:53 AM   #3
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AA is religious.

'Spiritual' is a woo word. It often is used as cover for religion. Even when there is no apparent religious aspects to 'spiritual' thought, there are always woo aspects.

I had a therapist that I really liked, but he asserted that I was spiritual even though I wasn't religious. I assured him that I was not.
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Old 18th July 2010, 06:57 AM   #4
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"Woo" is a bit of a silly word, too.
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Old 18th July 2010, 07:07 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
"Woo" is a bit of a silly word, too.

Nonsense.

'Woo' is a nearly perfect word.

Woo beliefs, people, and behavior are the problem.
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Old 18th July 2010, 07:07 AM   #6
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But not as silly as 'wee-wee'.
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Old 18th July 2010, 07:12 AM   #7
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To those who say it's not religious (and specifically Christian), read Chapter 4 of The Big Book, and explain.

I love how it says that it's God of your understanding, but it's also God (not "a" god) with a capital G and references to Him use the capital H.

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Old 18th July 2010, 07:12 AM   #8
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Ummm... The answer to the title is quite simple:

There is a notion of "freedom of religion" so therefore, nobody can force you to go to church. But if you don't call it "religion" then it's perfectly okay.

It's the same reason why they try to force "creationisim" as science when it's really religion.

In other words, it's another dishonest BS tactics used to brainwash the masses to follow the few individual who wish to control them.
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Old 18th July 2010, 07:25 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Nanny Ogg View Post
Now I'm furious that MY new therapist is telling me that AA would be a good resource for my husband. "It's not religious, it's spiritual," and "Your higher power can be anything at all, the ocean, even yourself."
Your new therapist is an incompetent idiot. Get a new therapist. Problem solved.

Quote:
...
And you are right. And if he doesn't see that, your new therapist is an idiot. (Which in my eyes is enough to label him incompetent as well. How can anyone who's not capable of following two or three steps of logic be competent to analyse a human mind?

Quote:
As former Catholics, my husband and I tend to get a bit touchy when religion is sold to us. It is very difficult to get away from, "Magical Thinking," and I've been working so hard to restructure my thoughts, to think more critically, to learn about logic, and to question things. And it took a lot for me to "talk back" to my therapist about this, and I still feel guilty, like I should just accept it as good advice. Such is the mark that being a good little Catholic girl leaves on person.
I would want a therapist who I cam trust at least a little further than I can spit. Hard to find, I'm sure but it should be worth the effort. (How much is a therapist worth who makes you feel guilty, actively or not; consciously or not.)

Quote:
I feel so angry that the majority of people don't question AA at all.
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Old 18th July 2010, 07:38 AM   #10
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While the original 12 step program was a religious program, there are individual AA groups who don't include religion in their version. Find another group.

AA is a useful tool for many people trying to maintain sobriety. Not everyone needs this kind of support. People are successful in their abstinence via different means and it isn't clear why one method works for some and another method works best for someone else.

The success of AA groups depend on the quality of the group, the quality of the leadership and whether the particular group one attends 'fits' with that individual. I used to work in the substance abuse field and I've seen many different AA groups in action. Some are not very supportive and people show up high, many attending because they had a DUI and the court has ordered them to go.

Other groups are very religiously oriented.

But there are also many AA groups which just leave out the 'turn your life over to a higher power' step. They mouth the words in the "give me the power" mantra but it isn't really part of the program. They support each other effectively, religion is just left up to the individual.

Someone really should revise the 12 steps and develop a non-religious program, but for some mysterious reason it hasn't happened yet.
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Old 18th July 2010, 07:45 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Someone really should revise the 12 steps and develop a non-religious program, but for some mysterious reason it hasn't happened yet.
Those do exist, but they're hard to find. Several only exist behind bars (for those ordered to attend a 12-step program but have a hard time with the religious aspect).
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Old 18th July 2010, 08:02 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
Those do exist, but they're hard to find. Several only exist behind bars (for those ordered to attend a 12-step program but have a hard time with the religious aspect).
And this is a big reason AA continues to have such high visibility, despite it's dismal failure rate. Judges often will sentence people to this program because there is no alternative available to them than just sending the individual to jail for 30 days. And even when there is an alternative, the courts are unaware of it.

Someone mentioned that AA has only about a 5% success rate. I wonder how that compares to people who just quit on their own? As an aside though, I have a friend who went to AA and he's about as religious as a door knob. He put up with the "higher power" thing vaguely and it did work. But he himself admitted that it was a good group. He's still clean after a lot of years. He was one of the lucky few for whom it worked.
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Old 18th July 2010, 08:06 AM   #13
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For those interested in a non-religious alternative to AA -- Check out --
Rational Recovery, and Jack Trimpy. Also Secular Organizations for Sobriety.

SMART Recovery (which stands for Self-Managment and Recovery Training) is another option.
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Old 18th July 2010, 08:12 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Uncle Otto View Post
And this is a big reason AA continues to have such high visibility, despite it's dismal failure rate. ....
All alcoholism treatment programs have a high failure rate, but most are equally effective when compared to each other. That includes comparing treatment to 'no treatment', but in this case, 'no treatment' quitting only works for a select group of people, just like AA only works for a select group of people. And we have no tests that predict which treatment is best for which individuals. People truly interested in recovery typically find the program that best fits their needs after trial and error.

AA groups are so varied, one also has a hard time in research determining whether the program or the group variables are reflected in the outcomes.

Judges sentence people to attend AA because there are so few alternatives.

Inpatient treatment is expensive, and not easy to accomplish if one has a job. That further restricts judges' choices.
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Old 18th July 2010, 08:25 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Uncle Otto View Post
Someone mentioned that AA has only about a 5% success rate. I wonder how that compares to people who just quit on their own?
I know someone reasonably high up in AA and he suggested their success rate is closer to 13% I would suggest no other programs are doing significantly better. My AA contact said it often takes at least 3 tries before a person does manage to get and stay sober

I'm also a little suprised at the outrage over the religious side of the program, it was started by a religious group back in the 30's. On Wiki they show you the original 12 steps and what they use today. Only two of the steps have any real religious relevence anymore.
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Old 18th July 2010, 08:28 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post

Inpatient treatment is expensive, and not easy to accomplish if one has a job. That further restricts judges' choices.
A work mate recently went through a 30 day in house program. Although he has never given a specific amount, the way he talks it cost between 10 and 13k for the treatment
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Old 18th July 2010, 08:50 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
I'm also a little suprised at the outrage over the religious side of the program, it was started by a religious group back in the 30's. On Wiki they show you the original 12 steps and what they use today. Only two of the steps have any real religious relevence anymore.

I don't think there is outrage at AA being religious.

I think some people, myself included, are pissed off that many advocates of AA state that AA is not religious when this it is.
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Old 18th July 2010, 04:07 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
Even when there is no apparent religious aspects to 'spiritual' thought, there are always woo aspects.
I've often had people tell me that they were "spiritual, but not religious" -- but beyond defining "spiritual" as "not religious", I've never gotten a coherent answer to the question, "what is spirituality?"

You seem to have this all rather carefully worked out. Would you care to share your definitions for these terms?

Quote:
I had a therapist that I really liked, but he asserted that I was spiritual even though I wasn't religious. I assured him that I was not.
Jung (whom you no doubt regard as a prince of woos) once said: "Mental health is characterized by flexibility". Maybe your therapist was just trying to way to find a way to say that he saw in you a healthy mental flexibility -- of the sort, perhaps, that enables you to like people even though they demonstrate a propensity for using what you consider to be 'woo' words in a professional setting.
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Old 18th July 2010, 06:06 PM   #19
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There are secular sobriety programs that your spouse can be referred to, I believe.
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Old 18th July 2010, 10:27 PM   #20
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The higher power thing is an important emotional 'hook'. There are others, of course. I was quite moved to hear stories from other people who had 'been there'.

The problem with any particular hook is that it doesn't catch every species of fish. So far, there is no medical treatment for alcoholism that does it either. None of this is surprising -- it's what happens when you use a cookie cutter formulation.

Best is if he can find a 'home group' or one that doesn't hammer Jesus. I've seen shopping happen a lot. People shop for AA groups where they feel comfortable and connect with the other people there.

For me, it was hugely about age. Some groups were entirely old farts and others were mostly youngsters. I can put up with more old-fartery than young know-it-all-ness. It does help to have a selection which means a major/minor city or a long drive.

Just let him know there is enough variation in groups that he is likely to find somewhere he can get some benefits. That said, I haven't been in about eight years, so even the best of them gets old.

Oh, and I'm a hardcore atheist, if that matters.
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Old 19th July 2010, 02:58 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
I know someone reasonably high up in AA and he suggested their success rate is closer to 13% I would suggest no other programs are doing significantly better.
Of course no program does much worse, including people quiting on their own. So remember if the treatment is as effective as nothing is it really a treatment?
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Old 19th July 2010, 03:00 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
I've often had people tell me that they were "spiritual, but not religious" -- but beyond defining "spiritual" as "not religious", I've never gotten a coherent answer to the question, "what is spirituality?"
Being full of newage?
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Old 19th July 2010, 03:36 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Being full of newage?
To rhyme with 'sewage'?
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Old 19th July 2010, 04:25 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Youd be right. Its a religious group for the reasons you mentioned. How could it not be?
The body of AA is itself religious as Bill W. founded it, however many people who attend AA and other offshoots are not.

So many groups have different levels of religion, some are yuck (the lard's prayer, that would make me run), some are not religious at all.

Many groups tolerate members who do not chose god as their higher power but something like 'sobriety', in my experience groups vary a whole lot. And some are double thumpers where they tout the bible and the big book and others re not.

I myself really like Jack Trimpey's Rational RecoveryWP. because it really gets down to the core of quitting, the Big Choice to quit.

When I did 'counseling' I used a relapse prevention model but also had a strong 'reality therapy' bias.

Rational Recovery

ETA: Even in AA which has a tradition that hroups are unique to some extent has the DFD groups, where members shy away from the twelve steps and focus on DFD, which is Don’t *********** Drink
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Old 19th July 2010, 04:33 AM   #25
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I suspect a lot of the reason people insist AA isn't religious is so courts can continue to insist people attend it. Wouldn't it being religious interfere with the whole seperation of church and state thing in the US?
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Old 19th July 2010, 04:38 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
I'm also a little suprised at the outrage over the religious side of the program, it was started by a religious group back in the 30's. On Wiki they show you the original 12 steps and what they use today. Only two of the steps have any real religious relevence anymore.
Originally Posted by Sledge View Post
I suspect a lot of the reason people insist AA isn't religious is so courts can continue to insist people attend it. Wouldn't it being religious interfere with the whole seperation of church and state thing in the US?
That answers your question MG. The reason I am outraged that AA is religious is that courts can order people do undertake it.
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Old 19th July 2010, 04:59 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
To rhyme with 'sewage'?
Of course
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Old 19th July 2010, 06:59 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by EvilSmurf View Post
That answers your question MG. The reason I am outraged that AA is religious is that courts can order people do undertake it.
However as others have pointed out in this thread, in some places it is the only game in town. It's free, organised so that you dont have to mis work (Assuming you have a job)

And do we have any evidence that if you are before the courts, and said your honour I believe the BB program run by XXX would be a greater benefit, the judge ignores this and says - "Off to AA you go"
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Old 19th July 2010, 07:06 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course no program does much worse, including people quiting on their own. So remember if the treatment is as effective as nothing is it really a treatment?
And what evidence is there that quitting on your own has the same success rate. Intuitively, no one would quit on their own, because they would stop before they reached this level of need in the first place

Humans are a social animal and we process much of our action through interaction with peers. Even organisations like weight watches realise this. The weekly, daily, whatever schedule meeting is as much a pep rally as part of the cure.
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Old 19th July 2010, 07:44 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Being full of newage?
Well, that's about as coherent as anything I've heard so far, but I still feel... unenlightened. Though I've most often asked the question of those who were claiming to be "spiritual", I guess it could work the other way around as well: How do you know you're not "spiritual" if you can't articulate what that means?
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Old 19th July 2010, 08:10 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
And what evidence is there that quitting on your own has the same success rate. Intuitively, no one would quit on their own, because they would stop before they reached this level of need in the first place
So AA is full of people who are ordered there by the court, as no one would ever go there by themselves? They would have dealt with it before it got that bad?
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Old 19th July 2010, 08:12 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by EvilSmurf View Post
That answers your question MG. The reason I am outraged that AA is religious is that courts can order people do undertake it.
Would it interest you to know that not all AA members or AA groups are entirely thrilled about the practice either? A popular cliche is that "AA is not for people that need it; it's for people that want it". So-called "court-carders" are usually at least tolerated, but not all meeting secretaries have an equal capacity for tolerance. I have attended meetings where the announcement was made at the outset: "If you're just here to get a court card signed, bring it on up and I'll sign it right now and then you can get the hell out". (Court-carders usually just sit quietly and scowl, but that secretary may have encountered one with enough resentment and suspicion to be disruptive). Some secretaries will simply state flatly: "I don't sign court cards" and leave it up to the individual to decide for themselves whether it's worth staying.

AA's third tradition states: "we may refuse none who wish to recover". Strictly interpreted, that can be used (and, at "closed" meetings, IS used) to exclude those who have gotten "the nudge from the judge", as well as anyone who does not have "a desire to stop drinking".

The "preamble" recited at the beginning of every meeting states: "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution". (With respect to the OP, I would argue that the "sect, denomination" part was included specifically to address the question of AA being a "religion", but I guess the definition of that could be almost as subjective -- and, apparently, as difficult to articulate -- as is "spirituality").

"Alcoholics Anonymous is not part of the judicial system. We do not work with the courts or the police department. We do not ask the courts to send people to us. When people do show up with court papers, we are not responsible for making sure the people are sober."

"If a judge, court, school, or employer has sent you to AA meetings, it is because they believe there is evidence that you have a drinking problem. We had nothing to do with their decision -- in fact, AA has no opinion as to whether you have a drinking problem or not."

"While most groups will sign court papers, this is for each individual group to decide. Since AA is not allied with the court system, AA is not required to do the court's work."

"If a chairperson or other group member agrees to sign your papers, they will probably sign with their first name or initials. We are personally anonymous. We are not court employees."

http://www.aasrq.org/courtordered.htm
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Old 19th July 2010, 08:35 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
Well, that's about as coherent as anything I've heard so far, but I still feel... unenlightened. Though I've most often asked the question of those who were claiming to be "spiritual", I guess it could work the other way around as well: How do you know you're not "spiritual" if you can't articulate what that means?
As someone who's "not spiritual," I'd say it means believing that there are forces, entities, etc. which exist apart from our brains and which may have some effect on us but which can't be investigated or disproven by the scientific method.

I think that everyone has similar strong sensations--a sense of morality, meaning, connection, etc. It's just that spiritual people attribute it to something outside themselves and practical people like me realize it's part of the biological brain function we're given.

It really does fit with the "higher power" idea. Spiritual people believe there's a power outside of us that can control us and non-spiritual people don't except in the most mundane literal terms (a mob has higher power than an unarmed individual, and so forth).
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Old 19th July 2010, 01:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
As someone who's "not spiritual," I'd say it means believing that there are forces, entities, etc. which exist apart from our brains and which may have some effect on us but which can't be investigated or disproven by the scientific method. (snipped)...

It really does fit with the "higher power" idea. Spiritual people believe there's a power outside of us that can control us and non-spiritual people don't except in the most mundane literal terms (a mob has higher power than an unarmed individual, and so forth).
Well an example that I as a materialist can accept as a pseudo-higher power would be the psychological phenomenon of "social proof." It has been shown to influence the behavior of others, acting as a kind of outside entity. Certainly not a personal God or anything, but it is something AA groups can do.

You can think of it as entirely a context-based influence on behavior. Someone who attends meetings and focuses on sobriety may have a better change than someone who does not.
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Old 19th July 2010, 01:59 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
As someone who's "not spiritual," I'd say it means believing that there are forces, entities, etc. which exist apart from our brains and which may have some effect on us but which can't be investigated or disproven by the scientific method.
And what difference (if any) do you see between that and religious beliefs?

Quote:
I think that everyone has similar strong sensations--a sense of morality, meaning, connection, etc. It's just that spiritual people attribute it to something outside themselves and practical people like me realize it's part of the biological brain function we're given.
I think I understand what you're saying, and don't really disagree with the essence of it, but I might quibble about it being strictly a matter of events taking place in the brain. For example, 'meaning' and 'connection' may arguably have as much to do with events in the endocrine system as anything (testosterone in particular seems almost to have a mind of its own at times, and usually doesn't give a damn what the brain has to say about its decisions). As for morality, there may be at least some room to consider the extent to which that is something that may exist independent of human thought -- even without invoking spirits.

Quote:
It really does fit with the "higher power" idea. Spiritual people believe there's a power outside of us that can control us and non-spiritual people don't except in the most mundane literal terms (a mob has higher power than an unarmed individual, and so forth).
I believe that the laws of cause and effect exist outside of myself, and though I'm not certain how much power they have to control me, assuming that they have that power to a very considerable extent has generally worked better for me than has assuming that I can circumvent them. Is that mundane? Does that make me "spiritual"?
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Old 19th July 2010, 05:44 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
Would it interest you to know that not all AA members or AA groups are entirely thrilled about the practice either?
Not particularly surprising.

Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
The "preamble" recited at the beginning of every meeting states: "AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization, or institution".
Notice how it only says "Sect, Denomination" and not "Religion"...that to me says "We don't care if you're Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Anglican, Jehova's Witness etc. as long as you're Christian".
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Old 19th July 2010, 05:58 PM   #37
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AA has some other issues for me, the biggest one is that many members foster and support a culture of 'AA only', people who would benefit from a variety of methods are encouraged to stick with AA, no matter what.

If you are three years sober then perhaps there are other ways to advance your life, without AA as the foucs.

I truly believe that 'Once and addict always an addict' but that can be just a warning to never use (there is that Big Choice again).

AA's is neutral on other methods, its members however can be a tad bit fanatical. They tell people who are depressed to avoid medication and that if they only focus on sobriety then their lives will be fine.

AA can also be a little snotty and clique-ish at times where longer term members will say really snotty and rude things about the stories of newer members , despite the no cross-talk rule. When someone goes on about their gratitude and how wonderful their life is and just how marvelous their life is now, and they don't talk about it except when other people share their suffering, it is really gross.

Then there are some groups that don't want new members because it would harsh their little social club. I personally really like the DFD or DFU groups, forget the steps, that is just something to keep you occupied. Stay sober, get better, get a life.

The last problem I have with AA is 'bottoming out' it is better to get sober before you bottom out and many people can learn to walk on the bottom.
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Old 19th July 2010, 08:13 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Dymanic View Post
And what difference (if any) do you see between that and religious beliefs?
None at all. I think those who claim to be spiritual but not religious reject the specific nature of most religions but they just substitute their own personal ideas or pick and choose from a variety of religions.

Quote:
For example, 'meaning' and 'connection' may arguably have as much to do with events in the endocrine system as anything (testosterone in particular seems almost to have a mind of its own at times, and usually doesn't give a damn what the brain has to say about its decisions).
I agree.

Quote:
As for morality, there may be at least some room to consider the extent to which that is something that may exist independent of human thought -- even without invoking spirits.
As a logical concept, sure, but then one can investigate it almost like mathematics, trying to see the greatest good, the rights of the individual, and so forth. As an intangible thing ("It feels right," "my conscience would bother me,"), we're back to nature and nurture. It may seem like a powerful force, and I'm all about integrity and honor and such myself, but sacrificing for the good of the hive probably seems like a powerful urge to a honeybee, too.

Quote:
I believe that the laws of cause and effect exist outside of myself, and though I'm not certain how much power they have to control me, assuming that they have that power to a very considerable extent has generally worked better for me than has assuming that I can circumvent them. Is that mundane? Does that make me "spiritual"?
But the laws of cause and effect can be investigated with the scientific method. They're predictable: hit yourself with a hammer and it'll hurt every time. Take a 10% risk of something bad happening a hundred times and the bad thing will probably happen more than once.

Where being spiritual comes in would be if someone said, I can take a 10% risk a hundred times but because of intangible factor X (my guardian angel, my lucky charm, my in-tuneness with the universe, etc.), the bad thing won't happen to me, or if it does, it was meant to be...

Last edited by Pup; 19th July 2010 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 19th July 2010, 11:37 PM   #39
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To the OP (et al).

I can only comment on AA meetings I have attended here and abroad and cannot therefor speak of the groups in (say) the US.
I have been clean and sober now for 10 years and work as a forensic counsellor in AOD as well as other areas.
AA forms the basis for the maintenance of my sobriey and I feel I can discuss this with some level of authority. So much for credentials.

As for the individual groups using (say) the lords prayer, doing 12 step work as some prerequisite etc etc. All that I can say is that this is a democratic decision taken by each individual group as to how they would like to run their group. There is no central office dictating how the groups should be run - it is their decision alone, voted on by the members of that group.

Someone else outlined that if one group doesn't suit you, try another, or another. There are plenty around and if one makes a small effort, they will find somewhere they are happy. If not, go back out and drink - the people in AA don't mind - that too is the choice of the individual just the same as their choice of/whether to have a higher power.


AA does not purport to be religious however to the uninitiated there would appear to be some religious connotations. There are many members who retain their agnosticism, atheism or whatever throughout their sobriety. There are many too whose 'spirituality' evolves over time. There is no "one God"; it is a God of ones own understanding in whatever form that might take.

Religion implies some sort of dogma/tenet or similar; a uniform approach to the religion. Spirituality refers to a 'purpose' or 'reason' an individual has: some might refer to this as ones psychosocial supports for example. Clearly this is not religion and is what is refered to as an individuals spirituality.

Cheers
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Old 19th July 2010, 11:42 PM   #40
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They've tried to make it more open, but insist that you have a "higher power"

as an atheist, it took me a long time to come with my "higher power"...nature.


that said, i still can't get anything out of AA, because A.) it really is mostly religious, and B.) every time i go, i just want to drink even more.
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