Moderated: Why do people insist AA is not religious?/Efficacy of AA & other treatment programs

[Complexity]

Originally Posted by Jack Astor

It's more of a bait and switch con game of religious conversion. You're right. The AA God is specific. This is from the "We Agnostics" chapter of the 'Big Book':

"...We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God."

In practice, a higher power™ is used as a proxy god for those willing to suspend their disbelief long enough to be brainwashed into the surreal AA world you see expressed by AA apologists.

What utter, lying bastards.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by AlBell

I am of the opinion the universe is a power higher than me. For that matter so is power available in every wall socket.

deleted on further reading

[8den]

Originally Posted by DannyB II

Thanks for throwing in the theatrics, AA killing people now, aye!!!
("and alot of lives")

Yes from the how it work

Quote:

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

If AA were honest and say "our path is religion" many people would happily walk away and think "not for me" and find another.

You don't think that people who are approaching AA aren't desperate and approaching suicidal, then you're dishonest. And if you don't think AA obfuscating their religious nature doesn't confuse and upset people who don't need confusion in their lives, then, I think, you're insane.

AA has killed people I know. People who were desperate and helpless, and needed to see that their were treatment options other than AA.

Instead AA told them "well if you can't manage AA you're going to die"

Hyperbole my ass.

[Tinyal]

Complexity, Jack & 8den - well posted & accurate. At this point I occasionally swing by this thread to see if the aa apologetics have learned anything yet.
Surprise, surprise it appears they're still hanging on to their delusions about with the AA program is, and isn't.
Elsewhere (earlier) in this thread I wrote pages worth - based on studies (such as George's study & others), my personal attendance leading thousands of meetings all across the western USA, publicly available AA material, some privately available data I myself retrieved from the closed AA library (I did have access to the private libraries for almost a decade, I was removed from the access list shortly after I made a strong atheistic statement at an GSO convention) - I refuse to repeat those posts since the other side won't even bother to go back and read them.

I've really been thinking of starting a new thread based on the question 'Is AA effective?' but work and my physical condition has been kicking my butt - perhaps I will sometime this week, will see.

In the meanwhile, keep up the good work, for as we all now know (summarizing), the AA program is very religious in nature, AA is not a quit-drinking program it's a gain-religion program that is supposed to cure one's drinking as a side effect (or whatever else ail's ya) - and not only for the member, but gives much advice on how to convert family members & utter strangers as well.

Take care, have a great week!

[Complexity]

Originally Posted by Tinyal

Complexity, Jack & 8den - well posted & accurate. At this point I occasionally swing by this thread to see if the aa apologetics have learned anything yet.

Many thanks. Hope your health gets better. Keep fighting the good fight.

[The Norseman]

Originally Posted by DannyB II

Complexity, you have no professional studies to outweigh his anecdotal evidence.
Btw, most of the tests/studies done were of the anecdotal type, they did not keep the people in a lab room like mice and study them. All were allowed to return home and were asked to come back at prescribed times to answer more questions.
So to summarize we are all using anecdotal evidence here and it should be the accepted norm.

Studies, even when the study is utilizing anecdotal evidence, are not equal to anecdotes.

And, in fact, there are professional studies, many of which have been linked to in this thread by "both sides" of this debate as to the efficacy of AA as a treatment method, so it's disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by DannyB II

I understand that you have really no understanding of the inner working of AA. You are not a alcoholic first and second you have never even tried to integrate the steps into your life and last you have never felt the desperation to change your life as only a alcoholic could.
All that gibberish you spouted above is heard in the parking lots of many a AA meeting. If you want to get serious about what we do in AA, PM me, we can have a serious conversation. Because all you are doing here is acting like Jack and spouting fellowship rubbish that is immature.
AA is suggestive, period. There is no arguing that, thousands of people are doing AA they way they want to and will continue to do so. Just because you say Norseman it isn't supposed to be done this way, doesn't make it so.
This is your only way to make a argument, is by critiquing AA's upside down triangle and its governess society. Get in line they have been doing it for 7 decades.

I've outlined some of my experience with AA and treatment agencies and my own personal issues in this thread and I'm no longer interested in providing additional details, in public nor in private, because I'm realizing that it's irrelevant to the points being made.

But, since you're so hell-bent on dismissing criticisms based on your perceptions of that person's interactions with AA, how about instead ask Tinyal about his experiences in AA? He's got more in-depth, hands-on, years of experience than arguably anyone else that's participating in this thread and so far, seems to be the only one trying to change AA from within. Instead of supporting him, the pro-AAs mock him and denigrate his efforts because he dares say that AA is religious and should change for the betterment of all.

Or, instead perhaps you could focus on the criticisms that are raised about AA rather than implying that a criticism is only valid if coming from a certain kind of person.

[Tinyal]

Originally Posted by The Norseman

... so far, seems to be the only one trying to change AA from within..

Yes, I have been & still am working on changing AA from within - I work with AA members (many of them with 20-44 yrs sober time) all across the US , some are in senior positions who would be out of a job if their atheism became known, others have put decades of their lives & developed long standing friendships/relationships they are working on maintaining, as we try to move AA away from it's imported oxford group insanity.

I still lead meetings at least 1-2 a week, just a few days ago I (gently but firmly) shut someone down from closing with the lords prayer, the day before that I had to 'redirect' a speaker that was talking about 'being saved in AA by a carpenter', and 'if you don't fill that hole inside you with god-consciousness it will be filled by alcholol' - these are not the sorts of things I will allow to be said, if I have any say in the matter, at meetings with highly vulnerable & court-forced AA attendees in the audience.

It'll probably be a lifetime of work for me , at my age - I hold no hope for massive change in my lifetime. But change is slowly happening (keep an eye out for a new phamplet addressing atheists & agnostics that I had a very small part in producing - unlike the insulting & stupid chapter 'we agnostics', at least the pamphlet is based on reality. AA has been losing members for a while now, staying somewhere around 1.8-2.2 million members for nearly a decade. Numbers that steady reflect people leaving at a much higher rate than before.

Have a great week!

[Complexity]

Tinyal - Cool.

[Jack Astor]

Originally Posted by Tinyal

It'll probably be a lifetime of work for me , at my age - I hold no hope for massive change in my lifetime. But change is slowly happening (keep an eye out for a new phamplet addressing atheists & agnostics that I had a very small part in producing - unlike the insulting & stupid chapter 'we agnostics', at least the pamphlet is based on reality. AA has been losing members for a while now, staying somewhere around 1.8-2.2 million members for nearly a decade. Numbers that steady reflect people leaving at a much higher rate than before.

Here is a good analysis of AA membership: God is Apparently Needing AA Less, Thank Gawd

Tinyal, I'm glad someone within AA is doing this, although I see it as a losing battle. I know of a group that has started to create awareness of the abuses which are rampant within AA, for which others are told to "keep their side of the street clean" and not to check another person's inventory. Natrually, most AAs pretend it isn't a problem. No doubt we'll get the standard, "I've never seen this happen" from our resident steppers.

If people knew of the high number of felons placed in positions of trust, they would be shocked. This shouldn't come as a surprise, considering AA bottom-feeds for recruits in prisons and court systems. Not just for impaired driving cases, but rape, pedophilia, larceny and other fun things. AA attendance is a get-out-of-jail-free card. What better place to find the future sponsors and mentors for broken and vulnerable people? It just. Makes. Sense.

Which leads us to why AA can't declare itself religious. It would prevent a lot of 12th-step recruiting efforts.

[DannyB II]

Originally Posted by 8den

Yes from the how it work

Quote:

If AA were honest and say "our path is religion" many people would happily walk away and think "not for me" and find another.

No you are wrong. You can say this because you really have no idea what you are talking about. Every one gets it has religion built into it...lol. You are so foolish trying to argue with us.
Everyone knows AA is religious...Everyone!!!!

Quote:

You don't think that people who are approaching AA aren't desperate and approaching suicidal, then you're dishonest. And if you don't think AA obfuscating their religious nature doesn't confuse and upset people who don't need confusion in their lives, then, I think, you're insane.

You are being very irrational and a bit dramatic in the effort to make your point. The emotional and mental situations you discussed above need to be respected and not bandied about to make a "sick point". You should be ashamed of yourself, seriously.

Quote:

AA has killed people I know. People who were desperate and helpless, and needed to see that their were treatment options other than AA.

Now you are just being ridiculous and the conversation is over for me. Ya know if you are having a hard time making your point the overly dramatic doesn't work either.

Quote:

Instead AA told them "well if you can't manage AA you're going to die"
Hyperbole my ass.

The hyperbole your reading and being consumed by is your own. Good luck.

[Complexity]

Originally Posted by DannyB II

The hyperbole your reading and being consumed by is your own. Good luck.

Being caught out in a lie isn't any fun, is it?

If you don't enjoy this, quit being an apologist.

I notice that you haven't responded to any of my points recently (or anyone else's, really).

[benbradley]

Originally Posted by Tinyal

Yes, I have been & still am working on changing AA from within - I work with AA members (many of them with 20-44 yrs sober time) all across the US , some are in senior positions who would be out of a job if their atheism became known, others have put decades of their lives & developed long standing friendships/relationships they are working on maintaining, as we try to move AA away from it's imported oxford group insanity.

I still lead meetings at least 1-2 a week, just a few days ago I (gently but firmly) shut someone down from closing with the lords prayer, the day before that I had to 'redirect' a speaker that was talking about 'being saved in AA by a carpenter', and 'if you don't fill that hole inside you with god-consciousness it will be filled by alcholol' - these are not the sorts of things I will allow to be said, if I have any say in the matter, at meetings with highly vulnerable & court-forced AA attendees in the audience.

It'll probably be a lifetime of work for me , at my age - I hold no hope for massive change in my lifetime. But change is slowly happening (keep an eye out for a new phamplet addressing atheists & agnostics that I had a very small part in producing - unlike the insulting & stupid chapter 'we agnostics', at least the pamphlet is based on reality. AA has been losing members for a while now, staying somewhere around 1.8-2.2 million members for nearly a decade. Numbers that steady reflect people leaving at a much higher rate than before.

Have a great week!

That's interesting. Do you ever get AA members from other groups that come in and try to take over the meeting? That's one of the standard MO's in AA that keeps different meetings as consistent as different McDonald's restaurants around the world.

Surely you heard the news of Toronto AA's central office delisting two atheist AA groups (it may have been discussed in this thread, I haven't read it all). This is another method of "keeping AA pure:" taking "heretical" groups off the list from which callers are referred who call the local AA phone number asking for a meeting (these may be people who have never been to a meeting before, or AA members from out of town).

I find this an interesting tactic, but it doesn't seem fruitful to me. I think it's easier and more effective to educate the public about AA and warn people away before they get to their first meeting.

About that pamphlet - I've read pamphlets with rather heretical ideas, such as "A Member's Eye View of Alcoholics Anonymous" but I have NOT seen the content of such pamphlets taken seriously by groups or have any significant effect on AA. I actually read a page or two from that as a discussion leader, starting at the bottom of page 21:
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-41_...yeviewofaa.pdf
It has some "heretical" statements on page 22 and says "there is more than a grain of truth to them." What those in the group interpreted it to be saying is "watch out when you start saying these things, because they can lead you out of AA and back into practicing alcoholism."

That pamphlet reminds me - my AA sponsor, after having seen me in an Al-Anon meeting, told me in a very stern voice the very words the pamphlet talks about: "AA is all you need." Al-Anon, ironically, ended up being one of my stepping stones out of AA.

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by Maurice Ledifficile

The universe is not a "power", and you can't really appeal to it for help with your drinking issues...

Sure you can.

Originally Posted by Jack Astor

And why does this wall socket fixate on your drinking issues, but ignores things like famine and child abuse?

These AA gods are really selective about their miracle work.

And it seems you are selective too. What are you doing about famine and child abuse?

Originally Posted by Complexity

No, your testimony is but one point of anecdotal evidence that is seriously outweighed by other evidence.

What evidence?
Orange doesn;t cound btw. Something independant would be good.

Originally Posted by 8den

AA has killed people I know. People who were desperate and helpless, and needed to see that their were treatment options other than AA.

Which treatment options would you suggest? And what sort of efficacy do they have?

Originally Posted by Tinyal

Yes, I have been & still am working on changing AA from within - I work with AA members (many of them with 20-44 yrs sober time) all across the US , some are in senior positions who would be out of a job if their atheism became known, others have put decades of their lives & developed long standing friendships/relationships they are working on maintaining, as we try to move AA away from it's imported oxford group insanity.

I still lead meetings at least 1-2 a week, just a few days ago I (gently but firmly) shut someone down from closing with the lords prayer, the day before that I had to 'redirect' a speaker that was talking about 'being saved in AA by a carpenter', and 'if you don't fill that hole inside you with god-consciousness it will be filled by alcholol' - these are not the sorts of things I will allow to be said, if I have any say in the matter, at meetings with highly vulnerable & court-forced AA attendees in the audience.

It'll probably be a lifetime of work for me , at my age - I hold no hope for massive change in my lifetime. But change is slowly happening (keep an eye out for a new phamplet addressing atheists & agnostics that I had a very small part in producing - unlike the insulting & stupid chapter 'we agnostics', at least the pamphlet is based on reality. AA has been losing members for a while now, staying somewhere around 1.8-2.2 million members for nearly a decade. Numbers that steady reflect people leaving at a much higher rate than before.

In other words you are now dictating to people what they may share and may not share in a meeting. Incredible!

They are no longer allowed to share their truth because Tinyal doesn't like what they have to say!

And as for "leading" a group, what is your job as servant? Are you the chairperson, secretary? Something else?


By the way Tinyal, you still haven't responded to what your higher power/pgty was, I would really like to know.

I have only been waiting a year.

[Complexity]

A.A. Alfie - Your posts aren't responsive.

[DannyB II]

Jack Astor
Scholar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinyal
It'll probably be a lifetime of work for me , at my age - I hold no hope for massive change in my lifetime. But change is slowly happening (keep an eye out for a new phamplet addressing atheists & agnostics that I had a very small part in producing - unlike the insulting & stupid chapter 'we agnostics', at least the pamphlet is based on reality. AA has been losing members for a while now, staying somewhere around 1.8-2.2 million members for nearly a decade. Numbers that steady reflect people leaving at a much higher rate than before

.

People are going to AA less because of the efforts over 70 years of AA getting the message out. There are so many more options today then there have ever been, thanks to AA,NA,CA and AlaTeen and Alanon.
We also thank you Anti-AA's for your support in bringing on more options. AA has always said they were not the only solution.
Tinyal, you are one of the hundreds of thousands who are working on the nonsense that has been going on in AA. As far as your opinion on the Chapter "We Agnostics" your not changing anything their, so please stop BS'ing the forum here. These pamphlets your talking about for atheists and agnostics have been around for years (maybe not the version your talking about now) but a version has been around for the 25 years I have been here.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Astor
Here is a good analysis of AA membership: God is Apparently Needing AA Less, Thank Gawd
Tinyal, I'm glad someone within AA is doing this, although I see it as a losing battle. I know of a group that has started to create awareness of the abuses which are rampant within AA, for which others are told to "keep their side of the street clean" and not to check another person's inventory. Naturally, most AAs pretend it isn't a problem. No doubt we'll get the standard, "I've never seen this happen" from our resident steppers.

NO what you might get is, "practice what you preach". One look at your blog "Stinkin Thinkin" would let anyone know you are completely insane and have gone way off the ranch with your message. You purposely pick out people to harass on your blog, this is abuse Jack.
What your talking about (abuses in AA) is rapes, bullying, intimidation ect...that happens outside of AA but because they are both in AA you feel that you can blame it on AA/GSO. This doesn't make any sense at all unless you are Jack.
You pull stories of people from God knows where, that were either sent to AA by the courts or went to AA on their own committed a crime of abuse with another person from AA, then blame this on AA for not protecting this person.
It is hard for AA to protect its members once they leave the premises of a AA meeting.

Quote:

If people knew of the high number of felons placed in positions of trust, they would be shocked. This shouldn't come as a surprise, considering AA bottom-feeds for recruits in prisons and court systems. Not just for impaired driving cases, but rape, pedophilia, larceny and other fun things. AA attendance is a get-out-of-jail-free card. What better place to find the future sponsors and mentors for broken and vulnerable people? It just. Makes. Sense.

No!! They would not be at all surprised Jack because everyone knows already. These felons are Harvard Grads w/ a Masters, Stock Brokers, Judges, Lawyers, Doctors, CEO's, CFO's, Managers, Husbands, Wifes, Mothers, Fathers, Sons and Daughters. We are all felons that have made it (I don't mean all AA members are felons). We are back out in life doing well. I personally had at one time 6 felonies, all pardoned. I own a mid-sized business. I have a friend in Atlanta who is a Judge he at one time was sitting in jail with a felony. Jeesh these stories go on and on. The pilot that was pulled from the plane he was flying smacked with a felony. Came out of jail, paid his fines and waited his time till he got reinstated by the airlines he worked for, this was not a guarantee. His story is in the 4th edition Big Book.
AA bottom feeds, WOW!!! I am so happy you are showing your true colors here Jack, this is what your blog is all about is this malicious, rabid ripping apart people who have fallen on hard times.
Yes Jack the Judicial System does send their rapists, molesters, pedophiles, murders (Drunk Drivers who killed people) larcenists ect...they see it as a inexpensive way to handle a circumstance. Is it right NO!! Can AA do anything about it NO!! (at this time). Have the courts been asked to stop, YES!!! San Francisco (Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals)
on religious grounds. Do the courts listen, NO!!
So your local "home groups" have to deal with this problem and they do. While these members are at the meeting. They have ByLaws for conduct while on the premises. They have people who are elected to enforce these laws for the protection of all.
But then again Jack, you don't know what goes on in a active AA meeting because you have never even been there.

Which leads us to why AA can't declare itself religious. It would prevent a lot of 12th-step recruiting efforts.

[DannyB II]

Originally Posted by Complexity

Being caught out in a lie isn't any fun, is it?

If you don't enjoy this, quit being an apologist.

I notice that you haven't responded to any of my points recently (or anyone else's, really).

What the heck have I lied about, son. That is a tall tale to say, if I say so myself.

[benbradley]

Originally Posted by Jack Astor

It's more of a bait and switch con game of religious conversion. You're right. The AA God is specific. This is from the "We Agnostics" chapter of the 'Big Book':

"...We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God."

In practice, a higher power™ is used as a proxy god for those willing to suspend their disbelief long enough to be brainwashed into the surreal AA world you see expressed by AA apologists.

Originally Posted by Complexity

What utter, lying bastards.

Remarkably, when AA members say AA is "spiritual, not religious" they actually believe it. I wrote more about this on a couple of blog comments related to the recent news story of Toronto AA's Intergroup delisting two atheist meetings:

http://religionvirus.blogspot.com/20...icked-out.html

In this one I also take Tim Farley to task for not having AA on his "whatstheharm.net" site:
http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/06/0...ked-out-of-aa/

[qayak]

Originally Posted by DannyB II

Couldn't we say the same thing about you and your beliefs of AA. Every time I have tried to have a conversation with a Anti-AA'er it will go good for about 3 sentences and then the insults start getting hurled at me. Your (anti-AA) excuse is I was traumatized while in AA and I am being insensitive.

No. I don't tell you anything about my religious, or AA, beliefs because they are none of your business and I doubt you would care. It is only when I am confronted with lies and mythology of religion, or AA, that I speak up.

And, unlike religious, or AA, believers I won't ever threaten you with hell, damnation, or death from drinking if you don't listen to what I have to say.

And I don't offer you an easy, ********, solution to your problems.

[Complexity]

Originally Posted by DannyB II

What the heck have I lied about, son. That is a tall tale to say, if I say so myself.

My apologies. I misremembered someone else's view for yours. I have just reviewed the past 20 pages and realized what happened.

I haven't liked what you've said, or the way you've said it, very much, but I didn't spot a lie.

I think you are trying to have your cake and eat it too. You have acknowledged that AA is religious, said that everyone knows that it is and that they can cafeteria pick, and then implied that the founders set things up so that they would appear to require the dogma - but not really, for the discerning participant. So, you get to view it as rigid (and religious) or as floppy (and not necessarily religous) as you like. I'm not buying it.

You should fix the quote-boxing in 4575, by the way. I originally thought that you were saying "Which leads us to why AA can't declare itself religious. It would prevent a lot of 12th-step recruiting efforts.", but realized it is part of someone else's text that you are quoting.

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by Complexity

A.A. Alfie - Your posts aren't responsive.

Sure they are.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by AlBell

And I'm proof you are wrong.

Please provide evidence that the universe helped you.

So far all I see is evidence that you helped yourself.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by DannyB II

I understand that you have really no understanding of the inner working of AA. You are not a alcoholic first and second you have never even tried to integrate the steps into your life and last you have never felt the desperation to change your life as only a alcoholic could.

"Doctor, I don't think I can trust you to cure my liver cancer. I mean, have YOU ever had liver cancer ?? No ? I rest my case."

[The Norseman]

Originally Posted by Belz...

"Doctor, I don't think I can trust you to cure my liver cancer. I mean, have YOU ever had liver cancer ?? No ? I rest my case."

Since I, you, and others have made the same point many times over the past year in this thread, I think it fair to say that his statement shows a lack of reading efforts.

[Belz...]

Originally Posted by DannyB II

Now you are just being ridiculous and the conversation is over for me.

Huh ? He mentioned people he knew died and you think he's being ridiculous ? And I thought Alfie was being insensitive.

[8den]

Originally Posted by DannyB II

The hyperbole your reading and being consumed by is your own. Good luck.

Originally Posted by me

If AA were honest and say "our path is religion" many people would happily walk away and think "not for me" and find another.

Originally Posted by DannyB

No you are wrong. You can say this because you really have no idea what you are talking about. Every one gets it has religion built into it...lol. You are so foolish trying to argue with us.
Everyone knows AA is religious...Everyone!!!!

No Danny. No thats simply not true. Other AA members on this forum have been arguing and are arguing [b]the exact opposite.

And I do know what I'm talking about, AA members are constantly saying it's not religious

Quote:

You are being very irrational and a bit dramatic in the effort to make your point. The emotional and mental situations you discussed above need to be respected and not bandied about to make a "sick point". You should be ashamed of yourself, seriously.

I'm not being irrational or overly dramatic. Most often when people enter AA they're at their most vulnerable and painful moments of their lives. If AA were honest and said "This is a religious path and may not be for you" instead of saying;

Quote:

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

AA tells these people "if you can't manage our simple program (Not Religious Path, Not Spiritual Journal, but Program, which suggests it's not religious but some kind of psychological training program). Well then you're a "unfortunate", someone worthy only of pity, one of the botched and the bungled, suffering from grave emotional and mental disorders, with less than average chances.

This is said IN EVERY MEETING

And every meeting you're told to keep coming back.

So you go to this "program" which is religious but doesn't say it's religious, and you do your 90 in 90, and at the end of every meeting you're reminded that hey if this simple program's fault ain't working it's not the program's fault it's you, you're broken.

Now you're desperate and frustrated and scared, and when you're a problem drinker your drinking is getting worse.

Originally Posted by me

AA has killed people I know. People who were desperate and helpless, and needed to see that their were treatment options other than AA.

Quote:

Now you are just being ridiculous and the conversation is over for me. Ya know if you are having a hard time making your point the overly dramatic doesn't work either.

Quote:

I'm not being overly dramatic, people in that situation with AA can, and have been driven to suicide, because AA doesn't work for them, and AA tells them "Hey AA works for everyone, and if it doesn't work for you, that's your fault not AA's"

The worst part is, and this is the worst part, when someone like that dies you'll always get someone standing up in a meeting and saying;

"See his problem was he didn't work the program properly"

[Hallo Alfie]

Twice now you have said:

"AA has killed people I know. People who were desperate and helpless, and needed to see that their were treatment options other than AA".

What other treatments?

[8den]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

Twice now you have said:

"AA has killed people I know. People who were desperate and helpless, and needed to see that their were treatment options other than AA".

Quote:

What other treatments?

I'm sorry, which one of us is the addiction councillor? And you're asking me to tell you about alternatives to AA?

Jesus man, talkabout a bartender who can only make Gin and Tonics.

Lifering, SMART, Rational Recovery, Moderate Management. My way out. And of course the always effective "Just Stop Drinking".

The problem with AA is AA are very insistent that they are the only way, and don't say "Hey this is our path to recovery, but please try another" Again every meeting has this little spiel

Quote:

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

It's not "rarly have we seen a person fail our path, walk away try a different path and turn out okay", it's "fail at AA, and you're a "unfortunate" with "less than average chances" and you could indeed have "grave emotional and mental disorders"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Complexity

A.A. Alfie - Your posts aren't responsive.

Originally Posted by A.A.Alfie

Sure they are.

I think what Complexity means old bean is that you challenge something someone says, they response, and you ignore that response, and move on to something else.

And that pithy little glib response shows just how disingenuous you are.



For example, you don't seem interested in discussing this with Danny B II, you're both in AA, and you both seem to have completely different views about the role religion plays in AA, and you don't seem interested in discussing this with each other. Instead you seem to take different tacts on people who have issues with AA.

It's very odd.

[8den]

..

[Hallo Alfie]

Originally Posted by 8den

I'm sorry, which one of us is the addiction councillor? And you're asking me to tell you about alternatives to AA?

Lifering, SMART, Rational Recovery, Moderate Management. My way out. And of course the always effective "Just Stop Drinking".

Very good - step #1 achieved.

Now what sort of efficacy do these programs achieve for alcoholics?

Alcoholics remember, not people that are just drinking a bit too much but died-in-the-wool alcohol dependent alkies?

[qayak]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

Alcoholics remember, not people that are just drinking a bit too much but died-in-the-wool alcohol dependent alkies?

Can you provide evidence, other than your say so, that you were/are an alcoholic . . . or that anyone else in AA is?

So far your only support for AA consists of logical fallacies.

It's really getting pathetic, Alfonso.

[8den]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

Very good - step #1 achieved.

Now what sort of efficacy do these programs achieve for alcoholics?

Alcoholics remember, not people that are just drinking a bit too much but died-in-the-wool alcohol dependent alkies?

Oh Alfie Alfie Alfie you yourself said a few pages ago that there lacked scientific consensus as to what exactly is a Alcoholic. Now you want efficacy figures for these programs when dealing with alcoholics?

Now suddenly you've changed your tune to "ah but how many "other" groups can cure chronic alcoholics"? The alkies AA cures them.

What's a alcohol dependent alkie Alfie? Do people need to be in gutter for AA to help them? What's your next goalpost shift going to be?

It's just really worrying to watch a man who claims to have a career in therapy and counselling people with addiction problems engaging in this kind of debate, on this subject matter.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

Very good - step #1 achieved.

Now what sort of efficacy do these programs achieve for alcoholics?

Alcoholics remember, not people that are just drinking a bit too much but died-in-the-wool alcohol dependent alkies?

Of course, since the only true alcoholics are in AA it follows that only AA can cure true alcoholics.

[Dunstan]

Originally Posted by The Norseman

Since I, you, and others have made the same point many times over the past year in this thread, I think it fair to say that his statement shows a lack of reading efforts.

He's just following the standard AA Defender Ad Hominem Flow Chart:

1. Have you ever had a drinking problem?
NO: Then you aren't qualified to have an opinion on this subject. LALALA I can't hear you!
YES: Proceed to 2.

2. Do you still drink?
YES: Then you aren't qualified to have an opinion on this subject. LALALA I can't hear you!
NO: Proceed to 3.

3. Did AA help you stop drinking?
YES: Then you shouldn't criticize AA, or else you're a hypocrite! LALALA I can't hear you!
NO: Proceed to 4

4. Are you sure you've stopped drinking? (Bonus points for adding passive-aggressive insinuations to the contrary)
NO: I thought so! LALALA I can't hear you!
YES: Your choice of: (a) You weren't really an alcoholic, then. LALALA I can't hear you! (b) You sound like you have some resentments. Maybe you're a dry drunk. LALALA I can't hear you!

[AlBell]

Originally Posted by tsig

Of course, since the only true alcoholics are in AA it follows that only AA can cure true alcoholics.

No one here has made that claim, but in my personal experience AA does manage to help 'hopeless cases'.

People who think AA is trying to help 'problem drinkers' to become 'social drinkers' are wrong, and imo most AA attendees shouldn't be there in the first place since they are in that category.

[Complexity]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

Sure they are.

No, they're not.

I'd like your detailed and honest responses to posts 4557 and 4559.

[Jack Astor]

Originally Posted by A.A. Alfie

"AA has killed people I know. People who were desperate and helpless, and needed to see that their were treatment options other than AA".

What other treatments?

Real clinical psychology is a good place to start.

AA utilizes people I wouldn't trust to mow my lawn as sponsors who convince their sponsees not to trust their own thinking and judgment (cuz your best thinking got you here, ya know), and then applies whatever pop psychology their minds can dream up. The steps are a catch-all solution, prescribed for people with serious psychological problems. These problems are exacerbated by the attitude among a high percentage of steppers that someone taking prescription medication is not "really sober." Discouragement of people taking prescription medication is common, to the degree that it is one of the few things that the GSO actually addressed through a pamphlet, which the true believers in the spiritual awakening largely ignore.

Add to this the cult-like components, such as gaslighting and milieu control, and you've got yourself a destructive environment for someone who needs real psychological help.

[DannyB II]

Duplicate...

[DannyB II]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DannyB II
The hyperbole your reading and being consumed by is your own. Good luck.
Originally Posted by me
If AA were honest and say "our path is religion" many people would happily walk away and think "not for me" and find another.
Originally Posted by DannyB

No you are wrong. You can say this because you really have no idea what you are talking about. Every one gets it has religion built into it...lol. You are so foolish trying to argue with us.
Everyone knows AA is religious...Everyone!!!!

8den sez:
No Danny. No thats simply not true. Other AA members on this forum have been arguing and are arguing [b]the exact opposite.

And I do know what I'm talking about, AA members are constantly saying it's not religious

8den,
Your missing their point, they know AA is religious as far as where AA originated from and the founder Bill W. motivations. No one is arguing this. But as you can see the first 100 had a problem with the Book being to religious, hence chapter 4 "We Agnostics". Regardless how we feel about how disingenuous this chapter is, it was the best a few could do at the time to appease the Atheist and Agnostic. The rest of the fence sitters said well I will just consider this a spiritual experience. If you hadn't notice more people today are rejecting organized religion, they abhor what is going on within the different religions. So they seek out their own interpretation of a higher power. Science or God, it is all spiritual to me.
It doesn't make a bit a difference to me or the hundred of thousands others if you want to see AA as religious or not because we don't work our steps in a religious manner.
Yes it can and does work exactly that way for many of us. This is why people say it is spiritual not religious. BTW!! Who heck are you to judge the way another person wants to live their life. If they tell you it is spiritual for them leave it at that. Jeesh!!!

[DannyB II]

Originally Posted by Jack Astor

Real clinical psychology is a good place to start.

AA utilizes people I wouldn't trust to mow my lawn as sponsors who convince their sponsees not to trust their own thinking and judgment (cuz your best thinking got you here, ya know), and then applies whatever pop psychology their minds can dream up. The steps are a catch-all solution, prescribed for people with serious psychological problems. These problems are exacerbated by the attitude among a high percentage of steppers that someone taking prescription medication is not "really sober." Discouragement of people taking prescription medication is common, to the degree that it is one of the few things that the GSO actually addressed through a pamphlet, which the true believers in the spiritual awakening largely ignore.

Add to this the cult-like components, such as gaslighting and milieu control, and you've got yourself a destructive environment for someone who needs real psychological help.

Jack, regurgitating this same nonsense that you say on every site and blog does not make it any more "true".
The responsibility of taking prescription drugs is between the Doctor and the patient. This person can and will go back to their doctor and explain their addictions and what can be done. AA or sponsors on the whole has nothing to say about these matters. The same applies to people who need advanced help emotionally and mentally, they are encouraged to seek this help.
Just because one or two people came on your blog and spouted off about how one crazy loon who was at a meeting was saying people should not take prescription drugs. This doesn't mean all sponsors or members are saying this.
OH, I am sorry if you thought this one crazy loon was speaking for AA. Just like I don't think when you speak you are speaking for your blog.

[qayak]

Originally Posted by AlBell

No one here has made that claim, but in my personal experience AA does manage to help 'hopeless cases'.

Alfie has constantly made this claim. His claim is that if you were cured by any other means besides AA, you were not a true alcoholic.

I seem to recall you and several others making the same claim at the beginning of this thread as well.