Firewalking heat and distance questions

[jakesteele]

I know firewalking has been done many times before and the explanations given are this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidenfrost_effect

These type explanations are always used for shorter, cooler walks, but what are the explanations given for the longer, hotter ones like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34dm_KK8pOE
1,200 degrees and 400 ft. new world record
And this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_walking#Explanation

Due to these properties, David Willey, professor of physics, says he believes firewalking is explainable in terms of basic physics and is not supernatural or paranormal.[6] However, he adds, "The 120 foot walk done by Sara Raintree and Jim Jarvis, and reports of longer walks and people remaining stationary for extended periods on the coals are currently under investigation by the author." Willey notes that most fire-walks occur on coals that measure about 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit (550 degrees Celsius), but he once recorded someone walking on 1,800-degree (1,000 °C) coals.[3]

[Skeptical Greg]

I'll say it again:

If there is something supernatural about " Fire Walking ", there is no reason why we should not be seeing ' Fire Sitting " ; or for that matter " Fire Head Standing "..

[Ririon]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

I'll say it again:

If there is something supernatural about " Fire Walking ", there is no reason why we should not be seeing ' Fire Sitting " ; or for that matter " Fire Head Standing "..

Burn.

[Crossbow]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

I'll say it again:

If there is something supernatural about " Fire Walking ", there is no reason why we should not be seeing ' Fire Sitting " ; or for that matter " Fire Head Standing "..

Good call!

[ExMinister]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

I'll say it again:

If there is something supernatural about " Fire Walking ", there is no reason why we should not be seeing ' Fire Sitting " ; or for that matter " Fire Head Standing "..

Not only that but it seems to me it should be called hot coal walking. Real fire walking should involve a supernatural power to walk through open flames unharmed, shouldn't it?

[tsig]

Originally Posted by ExMinister

Not only that but it seems to me it should be called hot coal walking. Real fire walking should involve a supernatural power to walk through open flames unharmed, shouldn't it?

You want to make sure your brother hasn't thrown a beer bottle in the fire.

[jakesteele]

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

I'll say it again:

If there is something supernatural about " Fire Walking ", there is no reason why we should not be seeing ' Fire Sitting " ; or for that matter " Fire Head Standing "..

I didn't say 'supernatural', you did, and you didn't answer my questions. You avoided them by sneering and mocking.

You're telling me what it isn't, but not what it is. You can't truly disprove something until you can explain exactly how it occurs.

Also, as far as the head walking goes and butt sitting goes, that's an assumption on your part. You are trying to make up rules for something you don't think is real in the first place. "because somebody can do this..., therefore, he can do that."

If that Wiley is currently investigating the heat, distance and stationary nature of this, and you know something he doesn't, you should call him and educate him. I think he would appreciate it.

[ExMinister]

All kidding aside, the problem is the assumption that there is something paranormal going on in the first place. What needs to be disproven?

For example, on one of the links you provided the man doing the "fire-walking" made it seem like it was mind over matter, that he was calling upon some sort of power to protect him from harm. It sounds very New Age and mysterious.

So the obvious question then becomes: Why doesn't this mind over matter work with timbers instead of coal? Why doesn't it work through open flames? "If you set your mind to it, you can do anything," this guy proclaims, but of course we know that if he set his mind to walking through actual fire for that length of time, he would be burned, regardless of what he set his mind to do.

The obvious conclusion is that there is trickery involved; it's all physiology and physics, nothing paranormal about it. If someone is claiming not to understand how the longer walks are accomplished, then my thought is that it is only a matter of time before the technique is figured out. That may be your thought, too.

It sounds quite different, though, when you use the term "disproven," as if something paranormal just might be happening if no other explanation can be found.

I will look around and see if anyone has come up with an explanation for how it's done. I'm curious, too. If it can be done, and it repeatedly is, it can be probably be explained - and in a way that doesn't involve the paranormal.

The people who are making videos and leading "mind over matter" workshops are probably in no hurry to share their secrets.

[jakesteele]

Originally Posted by ExMinister

All kidding aside, the problem is the assumption that there is something paranormal going on in the first place. What needs to be disproven?

For example, on one of the links you provided the man doing the "fire-walking" made it seem like it was mind over matter, that he was calling upon some sort of power to protect him from harm. It sounds very New Age and mysterious.

So the obvious question then becomes: Why doesn't this mind over matter work with timbers instead of coal? Why doesn't it work through open flames? "If you set your mind to it, you can do anything," this guy proclaims, but of course we know that if he set his mind to walking through actual fire for that length of time, he would be burned, regardless of what he set his mind to do.

The obvious conclusion is that there is trickery involved; it's all physiology and physics, nothing paranormal about it. If someone is claiming not to understand how the longer walks are accomplished, then my thought is that it is only a matter of time before the technique is figured out. That may be your thought, too.

It sounds quite different, though, when you use the term "disproven," as if something paranormal just might be happening if no other explanation can be found.

I will look around and see if anyone has come up with an explanation for how it's done. I'm curious, too. If it can be done, and it repeatedly is, it can be probably be explained - and in a way that doesn't involve the paranormal.

The people who are making videos and leading "mind over matter" workshops are probably in no hurry to share their secrets.

I am curious about the correlation of the Leidenfrost effect and just plain old mind over matter. The Leidenfrost effect requires moisture which would probably evaporate pretty quickly. So right now for me that leaves mind over matter. People can do some amazing things when they set their minds to it.

I went to grade school with a guy that used to attempt outrageous things and succeed. His first attempt at mind over matter was to learn how to hold a cup of extremely hot coffee; not hot enough to cause blisters, but way hotter than a normal person would ever do. He was able to master this and learned to do it indefinitely with other objects that stayed consistently hot.

Also, he decided he was going to do and "infinite amount of situps" in gym class. His first attempt he did 500 in a row before the teacher stopped him out of concern. His second attempt he did 1,000 before the teacher intervened.

My first guess on firewalking is that the heat may not get hot enough to blister and burn if you keep moving fast, but still very hot, and the guy simply guts it out.

[Safe-Keeper]

Could be that he was simply unable to feel pain. Those people exist, you know. One of my teachers spoke of a childhood classmate who couldn't feel pain and was the hero of the class because he could hold a lighter flame right under his open palm.

[Orphia Nay]

Edit: Nevermind.

[Ririon]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

I am curious about the correlation of the Leidenfrost effect and just plain old mind over matter.

(snip)

My first guess on firewalking is that the heat may not get hot enough to blister and burn if you keep moving fast, but still very hot, and the guy simply guts it out.

First of all, there is more to the basic physics of walking on hot coals than the leidenfrost effect. The very low heat conductivity of coal is the most important one. You should check out the Mythbusters take on this.

Secondly: It might be a language issue, but the highlighted sections above may or may not mean the same thing. "Mind over matter" may include and/or imply supernatural phenomena.

[littleroundman]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

I am curious about the correlation of the Leidenfrost effect and just plain old mind over matter.

As with most things, there is more than just one "answer" to the OP questions.

The main elements are:

1) Low/slow conductivity of wood/embers
2) Low Heat capacity of embers

along with the combined effects of:

3) Relatively small length of time of actual foot/ember contact
4) area of contact reduced by irregular shape of coals/embers
5) Ash build up on coals/embers
6) redistribution of heat via blood supply of walker
7) varying levels of pain tolerance in walkers
8) "running" instead of "walking"

testing whether or not the "conductivity/heat capacity" explanation is valid is simple.

replace the wood with steel.

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

I am curious about the correlation of the Leidenfrost effect and just plain old mind over matter.

Originally Posted by Ririon

Secondly: It might be a language issue, but the highlighted sections above may or may not mean the same thing. "Mind over matter" may include and/or imply supernatural phenomena.

It's a language issue only in that 'plain old mind over matter' doesn't mean anything.

Immunity to pain might somehow be possible, but immunity to the damage caused by the application of high heat is not.

This is claiming, in fact, that the physical properties of a person's flesh can be altered by thinking about it, and that would definitely be paranormal/supernatural.

[rustypouch]

Originally Posted by littleroundman

As with most things, there is more than just one "answer" to the OP questions.

The main elements are:

1) Low/slow conductivity of wood/embers
2) Low Heat capacity of embers

along with the combined effects of:

3) Relatively small length of time of actual foot/ember contact
4) area of contact reduced by irregular shape of coals/embers
5) Ash build up on coals/embers
6) redistribution of heat via blood supply of walker
7) varying levels of pain tolerance in walkers
8) "running" instead of "walking"

testing whether or not the "conductivity/heat capacity" explanation is valid is simple.

replace the wood with steel.

Exactly.

It works for the same reason that you can touch a cake in the oven with no ill effects, even though it's at 400F. If you touched the rack it was baking on, you would burn yourself.

And welcome to the forums!

[jakesteele]

Here’s the problem I’m seeing with most of the responses so far: All explanations given so far are based on very short distance and very few steps, i.e., minimal exposure to the coals/heat. No one has effectively addressed the long walks and prolonged exposure of standing stationary yet. If you’re stumped or puzzled and at a loss, just say so, don’t start mocking what you call woo. That’s just a diversionary tactic.

The explanations given so far are:
1) Relatively small length of time of actual foot/ember contact
2) area of contact reduced by irregular shape of coals/embers
3) Ash build up on coals/embers
4) redistribution of heat via blood supply of walker
5) varying levels of pain tolerance in walkers
6) "running" instead of "walking"

Again, this is based on short firewalks. Even with a short firewalk your feet are hotter after the walk than before because of heat transference. (Isn’t that the 1st law of thermodynamics - heat transfer? Whatever.) Everyone has experienced the phenomena of cooking hot dogs and sticking your hand in to turn all of them over and after a few turns your hand has heated up to where you can’t stand it any longer. You pull your hand back to “cool down”. Then you put your hand back in to continue turning the dogs and it heats up to the limit of endurance quicker than the first time, and so on. With a long or stationary firewalk, at some point the Leiden Frost effect, the quick exposure of the feet, the ash insulation, etc. begins to loose its effectiveness. So it begs two questions:

1. How far can the average person go before that happens?
2. How is it done after the standard explanations run out of “steam” and the supernatural is not considered?

[Modified]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

I went to grade school with a guy that used to attempt outrageous things and succeed. His first attempt at mind over matter was to learn how to hold a cup of extremely hot coffee; not hot enough to cause blisters, but way hotter than a normal person would ever do. He was able to master this and learned to do it indefinitely with other objects that stayed consistently hot.

I think that is matter over matter. I regularly wash dishes in 170F water. My hands have adapted to this, somehow, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I'm not doing anything conscious to achieve this, so there is no "mind" involved. On the other hand, I rarely drink hot beverages or soup (I don't drink coffee or tea). Hot drinks that regular coffee drinkers can drink without harm will cause burns to my lips and the roof of my mouth. My wife can start eating a hot bowl of soup right off the stove, while I have to wait a long time for it to cool.

Quote:

Also, he decided he was going to do and "infinite amount of situps" in gym class. His first attempt he did 500 in a row before the teacher stopped him out of concern. His second attempt he did 1,000 before the teacher intervened.

That's not particularly difficult. I've done 1000 traditional sit-ups before. If he could do 1000 crunches, I'd be impressed.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

I am curious about the correlation of the Leidenfrost effect and just plain old mind over matter. The Leidenfrost effect requires moisture which would probably evaporate pretty quickly. So right now for me that leaves mind over matter. People can do some amazing things when they set their minds to it................

Then why can't they set their minds to sit on hot coals instead of just walking on them ?

If there is an effect that can't be explained by physics. it wouldn't be confined to feet, on beds of hot coals...

Sneering and mocking is not always without merit..

[jakesteele]

Originally Posted by Modified

Quote:

I think that is matter over matter. I regularly wash dishes in 170F water. My hands have adapted to this, somehow, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I'm not doing anything conscious to achieve this, so there is no "mind" involved.

Here's the problem I have with that: The hot dog analogy is by the average person who doesn't regularly wash dishes at 170F and who wouldn't be doing hot dogs 8 hrs. a day. I used to heat my house with a wood burning stove and the 'too hot to handle' never went away.

I don't know why everybody is so hung up over the term "mind over matter". People are attacking that and not addressing the questions I posed: How long do the Leiden Frost, coal insulation last before they exhaust themselves and what explanation can be given for long walks, stationary walks and extremely hot walks?

Again, if you don't know, cool; no harm no foul. Just say you don't know.

I suffer from chronic back pain that at times is very severe. I have learned to live with it, make it my friend, become one with it and all that other metaphysical stuff or whatever you want to call it. It takes practice and perseverance, and at first, a lot of will power. That was my mind overcoming the pain of my physical matter and learning how to control it instead of it controlling me.


On the other hand, I rarely drink hot beverages or soup (I don't drink coffee or tea). Hot drinks that regular coffee drinkers can drink without harm will cause burns to my lips and the roof of my mouth. My wife can start eating a hot bowl of soup right off the stove, while I have to wait a long time for it to cool.

That's not particularly difficult. I've done 1000 traditional sit-ups before. If he could do 1000 crunches, I'd be impressed.

A 1000 sit ups is very difficult or you would see a lot more of it in the schools. In high school the record for sit ups was nowhere near that and it was held by a 17 yr. old junior as opposed to a 12 yr. old kid.

If you've done a 1000 in a row, my hats off to you.

[jakesteele]

Originally Posted by [QUOTE

Skeptical Greg;6150511]Then why can't they set their minds to sit on hot coals instead of just walking on them ?

Good Lord! I'll post this again:
"...Also, as far as the head walking goes and butt sitting goes, that's an assumption on your part. You are trying to make up rules for something you don't think is real in the first place. "because somebody can do this..., therefore, he can do that."

If that Wiley is currently investigating the heat, distance and stationary nature of this, and you know something he doesn't, you should call him and educate him. I think he would appreciate it.

Quote:

If there is an effect that can't be explained by physics. it wouldn't be confined to feet, on beds of hot coals...

How on earth would you know that? Proof, links, pie charts, graphs, evidence, stats, please.

Quote:

Sneering and mocking is not always without merit...]

[/quote]

Sneering and mocking is never alright with someone who considers themselves to be scientific, logical, rational, a real skeptic and critical thinker, which I'm assuming you consider yourself to be all of the above. Sneering and mocking is what pseudo-skeptics do. It's just a way of dodging the issue.

Now please answer my questions or nip it and zip it.

The explanations given so far are:
1) Relatively small length of time of actual foot/ember contact
2) area of contact reduced by irregular shape of coals/embers
3) Ash build up on coals/embers
4) redistribution of heat via blood supply of walker
5) varying levels of pain tolerance in walkers
6) "running" instead of "walking"

1. How far can the average person go before that happens?
2. How is it done after the standard explanations run out of “steam” and the supernatural is not considered?

[Ririon]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Sneering and mocking is never alright with someone who considers themselves to be scientific, logical, rational, a real skeptic and critical thinker, which I'm assuming you consider yourself to be all of the above. Sneering and mocking is what pseudo-skeptics do. It's just a way of dodging the issue.

Now please answer my questions or nip it and zip it.

The explanations given so far are:
1) Relatively small length of time of actual foot/ember contact
2) area of contact reduced by irregular shape of coals/embers
3) Ash build up on coals/embers
4) redistribution of heat via blood supply of walker
5) varying levels of pain tolerance in walkers
6) "running" instead of "walking"

1. How far can the average person go before that happens?
2. How is it done after the standard explanations run out of “steam” and the supernatural is not considered?

Why did you remove the main elements and renumber the list?

Answers:

1. I don't know. It is hard to remove the main effects from the experiment. I should think 1 step would be sufficient for the average person to get a nasty burn. Are you proposing a hot metal walk? You could set up some hot lumps of metal, sprinkle some ash over them and try to walk. I would not recommend it.

2. It is not done. Obviously. How would it be done, you say? Magic?

[steve s]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Here’s the problem I’m seeing with most of the responses so far: All explanations given so far are based on very short distance and very few steps, i.e., minimal exposure to the coals/heat. No one has effectively addressed the long walks and prolonged exposure of standing stationary yet. If you’re stumped or puzzled and at a loss, just say so, don’t start mocking what you call woo. That’s just a diversionary tactic.

The explanations given so far are:

2) area of contact reduced by irregular shape of coals/embers

I think #2 is the main reason that longer walks are possible. Each time you bring your foot down, a different part of your foot is in contact with the coals. It will probably be a few steps before that exact same spot on your foot is in contact with the coals again, so it has a few seconds to cool off.

Steve S

[Modified]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Here's the problem I have with that: The hot dog analogy is by the average person who doesn't regularly wash dishes at 170F and who wouldn't be doing hot dogs 8 hrs. a day. I used to heat my house with a wood burning stove and the 'too hot to handle' never went away.

There are limits, obviously, but I suspect the "record" fire walkers have been doing it for some time and have built up some kind of physical tolerance, so they can go longer and hotter than the average guy off the street.

Quote:

A 1000 sit ups is very difficult or you would see a lot more of it in the schools. In high school the record for sit ups was nowhere near that and it was held by a 17 yr. old junior as opposed to a 12 yr. old kid.

If you've done a 1000 in a row, my hats off to you.

When I was in grade school and they had us do sit-ups in gym class, if you made it to 100, you stopped there. Nobody ever kept records, and in high school the only records kept were for powerlifting, certainly not sit-ups.

The 24 hour record seems to be 111,000. That's more than one per second. If someone can do that, I think the average in-shape 12 year old boy can work up to 1000. There is a threshold at some point where it becomes pure endurance rather than strength-endurance. Once you get past that, you can keep going for a long time. That is, if you can do 250 consecutive sit-ups, you can probably do 1000.

[Ririon]

Also:

Is it really surprising or even particularly interesting that some people are better than other people at fire walking? Pick a person who has walked around without shoes in a hot climate a whole life. Someone who is also used to dealing with considerable physical pain.

I would be very surprised if that person was not vastly superior at fire walking compared to, say, me. (I am quite the opposite of that description.)

You don't need woo-woo to explain that. Heck, you don't even need physics.

[Epok]

Skeptics do not automatically go for the supernatural excuse since almost everyone who has claimed supernatural abilities has been shown to be false. And just because they don't have an explaination handy does not make the supernatural to be correct. I would wager that eventually someone could explain how the world record was achieved without a supernatural reason. Just because I can't explain it doesn't make it supernatural.

[Rodney]

Originally Posted by Epok

Just because I can't explain it doesn't make it supernatural.

In the 1980s, Randi couldn't explain it either. If you click the following video link -- http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...93355358083404 -- you will hear Randi say at minute 20 and second 33 of the video: "I've always been mystified by the reports that certain people had the ability to walk on red-hot embers or rocks or ash or actual flames and I'd never had the opportunity to see it and I'd often wondered about the accuracy of the reports." A short while later, after witnessing a firewalking demonstration, Randi examines the sole of a firewalker's foot and states: "That sole is no tougher than mine; that's no tougher than mine and yet the man can do it. I don't think I could." Finally, at the end of the firewalking segment, about three minutes later, Randi states: "I don't know, it's got me buffaloed."

[littleroundman]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

1. How far can the average person go before that happens?
2. How is it done after the standard explanations run out of “steam” and the supernatural is not considered?

1) What's an "average" person ???

What I CAN tell you from experience, is that someone "off the street" with no experience but a large amount of bravery can easily "firewalk" 10 meters with no preparation, but an expertly prepared "fire"

If you know of an "average" person who is prepared to do a quick walk through to see how long he/she makes it without damage, feel free.

2) There is no "running out of steam" before the supernatural is considered.

There ARE, however, people who very carefully maximize the effects of every factor given.

i.e. spend a large amount of time preparing the walk path
harden their feet
show only their "successful" attempts
modify their walk/running style to maximize the time their feet are actually in "contact" with the coals while maximizing the "recovery"
time their feet are not in contact.

The exaggerated "high lift" style of walking is not an accident. It is designed to allow for the body to transfer any residual heat away from the area via the bloodstream.

"Running" rather than "walking" increases the distance covered with little increase in the amount of actual contact time between feet and coals.

The amount of preparers/preparation time is not just for safety reasons.
The constant raking both ensures larger coals break down and a greater amount of ash is on top of the coals.

A lower ambient temperature effects the outcome.

Thickening/toughening the soles of the feet effects the outcome.

[Vic Vega]

My company used to have new employees of a certain division firewalk as part of their new hire activites. One of the guys in my group did it and has a picture of himself in the middle of it. He has a big smile on his face and felt no pain whatsoever.

Many hundreds of people did it over the years with no preparation at all.

[blobru]

Yeah, it's figured in a lot of corporate and self-help seminar training gigs since the mid-80's at least. The goal is to convince participants they're accomplishing something extraordinary solely because they believe they can, without explaining to them the basic physics behind it which makes their firewalking accomplishment quite ordinary.

[jakesteele]

Originally Posted by Ririon

Why did you remove the main elements and renumber the list?

Answers:

1. I don't know. It is hard to remove the main effects from the experiment. I should think 1 step would be sufficient for the average person to get a nasty burn. Are you proposing a hot metal walk? You could set up some hot lumps of metal, sprinkle some ash over them and try to walk. I would not recommend it.

2. It is not done. Obviously. How would it be done, you say? Magic?

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're asking/saying.

[jakesteele]

Originally Posted by steve s

I think #2 is the main reason that longer walks are possible. Each time you bring your foot down, a different part of your foot is in contact with the coals. It will probably be a few steps before that exact same spot on your foot is in contact with the coals again, so it has a few seconds to cool off.

Steve S

Thank you.

[jakesteele]

=Modified;6150888]There are limits, obviously, but

Quote:

I suspect the "record" fire walkers have been doing it for some time and have built up some kind of physical tolerance, so they can go longer and hotter than the average guy off the street.

That's sounds reasonable.



When I was in grade school and they had us do sit-ups in gym class, if you made it to 100, you stopped there. Nobody ever kept records, and in high school the only records kept were for powerlifting, certainly not sit-ups.

The 24 hour record seems to be 111,000. That's more than one per second. If someone can do that, I think the average in-shape 12 year old boy can work up to 1000. There is a threshold at some point where it becomes pure endurance rather than strength-endurance. Once you get past that, you can keep going for a long time. That is, if you can do 250 consecutive sit-ups, you can probably do 1000.[/quote]

[jakesteele]

=littleroundman;6151615]1)

Quote:

What's an "average" person ???

You and I

Quote:

What I CAN tell you from experience, is that someone "off the street" with no experience but a large amount of bravery can easily "firewalk" 10 meters with no preparation, but an expertly prepared "fire"

I guess what I'm trying to find out is the difference between an average person like you and I doing 10 meters as opposed to 420ft. world record distance. It seems that you would definitely run out of Leiden Frost at that distance.

Quote:

If you know of an "average" person who is prepared to do a quick walk through to see how long he/she makes it without damage, feel free.

I know of average Joe's who can do quick walks, but none that have gone 400 feet.

Quote:

2) There is no "running out of steam" before the supernatural is considered.

Please stop using the word 'supernatural'. I did not offer that as an explanation, others did. What I have asked is this:

1. How far can the average person go before that happens?
2. How is it done after the standard explanations run out of “steam” and the supernatural is not considered?

Your explanations below sound reasonable, that's all I've been getting at the whole time. Thank you.
********************************************

There ARE, however, people who very carefully maximize the effects of every factor given.

i.e. spend a large amount of time preparing the walk path
harden their feet
show only their "successful" attempts
modify their walk/running style to maximize the time their feet are actually in "contact" with the coals while maximizing the "recovery"
time their feet are not in contact.

The exaggerated "high lift" style of walking is not an accident. It is designed to allow for the body to transfer any residual heat away from the area via the bloodstream.

"Running" rather than "walking" increases the distance covered with little increase in the amount of actual contact time between feet and coals.

The amount of preparers/preparation time is not just for safety reasons.
The constant raking both ensures larger coals break down and a greater amount of ash is on top of the coals.

A lower ambient temperature effects the outcome.

Thickening/toughening the soles of the feet effects the outcome.[/quote]

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Originally Posted by Modified

Quote:

I think that is matter over matter. I regularly wash dishes in 170F water. My hands have adapted to this, somehow, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I'm not doing anything conscious to achieve this, so there is no "mind" involved.

Here's the problem I have with that: The hot dog analogy is by the average person who doesn't regularly wash dishes at 170F and who wouldn't be doing hot dogs 8 hrs. a day. I used to heat my house with a wood burning stove and the 'too hot to handle' never went away.

I don't know why everybody is so hung up over the term "mind over matter". People are attacking that and not addressing the questions I posed: How long do the Leiden Frost, coal insulation last before they exhaust themselves and what explanation can be given for long walks, stationary walks and extremely hot walks?

Again, if you don't know, cool; no harm no foul. Just say you don't know.

I suffer from chronic back pain that at times is very severe. I have learned to live with it, make it my friend, become one with it and all that other metaphysical stuff or whatever you want to call it. It takes practice and perseverance, and at first, a lot of will power. That was my mind overcoming the pain of my physical matter and learning how to control it instead of it controlling me.


On the other hand, I rarely drink hot beverages or soup (I don't drink coffee or tea). Hot drinks that regular coffee drinkers can drink without harm will cause burns to my lips and the roof of my mouth. My wife can start eating a hot bowl of soup right off the stove, while I have to wait a long time for it to cool.

That's not particularly difficult. I've done 1000 traditional sit-ups before. If he could do 1000 crunches, I'd be impressed.

A 1000 sit ups is very difficult or you would see a lot more of it in the schools. In high school the record for sit ups was nowhere near that and it was held by a 17 yr. old junior as opposed to a 12 yr. old kid.

If you've done a 1000 in a row, my hats off to you.

1. Learn to quote properly. The way you've done it above renders it almost impossible to tell which words are yours and which are Modified's.


2. Attempting to combine the topics of 'How many sit ups can a person do?' with 'Firewalking heat and distance questions.' is certainly novel, but it makes no sense at all to do so and simply confuses both issues. Pick one.

3. 'Mind over matter' is a meaningless phrase, and that is why people are 'hung up over it'. The physical properties of matter are not subject to alteration by the mind. Evidence to the contrary will earn you at least a million dollars. Got any?

[littleroundman]

Now I'm confused.

First of all "jakesteel" says:

Quote:

I didn't say 'supernatural', you did, and you didn't answer my questions. You avoided them by sneering and mocking.

Thens a few posts later:

Originally Posted by jakesteel

So it begs two questions:

1. How far can the average person go before that happens?
2. How is it done after the standard explanations run out of “steam” and the supernatural is not considered?

To be clear,

There is no "supernatural" consideration.

There is no definitive moment after which "supernatural" becomes the explanation.

There is only "people can perform the activity colloquially known as "firewalk" because of the reasons laid out above.

The only way to determine how far an "average" person can "firewalk" is to first define "average" THEN convince enough "average" people to try it.

There is no definitive formula and too many variables to even begin to nominate a figure.

What I CAN tell you though, with absolute certainty through experience, is that I have personally seen 600 or 700 "average" people complete a 10 meter "firewalk" without injury.

As far as knowing what distance it is possible to "firewalk"

How long is a piece of string ???

[Epok]

Originally Posted by Rodney

In the 1980s, Randi couldn't explain it either. If you click the following video link -- http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...93355358083404 -- you will hear Randi say at minute 20 and second 33 of the video: "I've always been mystified by the reports that certain people had the ability to walk on red-hot embers or rocks or ash or actual flames and I'd never had the opportunity to see it and I'd often wondered about the accuracy of the reports." A short while later, after witnessing a firewalking demonstration, Randi examines the sole of a firewalker's foot and states: "That sole is no tougher than mine; that's no tougher than mine and yet the man can do it. I don't think I could." Finally, at the end of the firewalking segment, about three minutes later, Randi states: "I don't know, it's got me buffaloed."

It takes a lot of courage to say "I don't know". Especially when you're in Randi's position. But tenacity and persistance pays off. I'm sure he could explain it now. Its a good thing he didn't back down.

[Ririon]

Originally Posted by littleroundman

The main elements are:

1) Low/slow conductivity of wood/embers
2) Low Heat capacity of embers

along with the combined effects of:

3) Relatively small length of time of actual foot/ember contact
4) area of contact reduced by irregular shape of coals/embers
5) Ash build up on coals/embers
6) redistribution of heat via blood supply of walker
7) varying levels of pain tolerance in walkers
8) "running" instead of "walking"

testing whether or not the "conductivity/heat capacity" explanation is valid is simple.

replace the wood with steel.

Originally Posted by jakesteele

The explanations given so far are:
1) Relatively small length of time of actual foot/ember contact
2) area of contact reduced by irregular shape of coals/embers
3) Ash build up on coals/embers
4) redistribution of heat via blood supply of walker
5) varying levels of pain tolerance in walkers
6) "running" instead of "walking"

Originally Posted by Ririon

Why did you remove the main elements and renumber the list?

Originally Posted by jakesteele

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're asking/saying.

Which word(s) are you having problems with?

[Rodney]

Originally Posted by Epok

It takes a lot of courage to say "I don't know". Especially when you're in Randi's position. But tenacity and persistance pays off. I'm sure he could explain it now. Its a good thing he didn't back down.

The point that you should take away here is that, until relatively recently, most skeptics -- including Randi -- believed firewalking to be trickery. Now, they are trying to re-write history by claiming that they knew all along that there was a physiological explanation.

[Sledge]

How are you taking Randi saying "I don't know how this is done" and arriving at "it's a trick"?

[Akhenaten]

Originally Posted by Sledge

How are you taking Randi saying "I don't know how this is done" and arriving at "it's a trick"?

Mind over matter?