Oakland rules on pot

[bit_pattern]

You gotta love the Bay Area

So what are people's thoughts on drug law reform? For? Against? Indifferent?

Quote:

Oakland rules on pot
SAN FRANCISCO
July 22, 2010

California could be a step towards confirming itself as a rival to Amsterdam when Oakland city council votes on setting up and licensing four major marijuana factories.

Marijuana would be mass produced, packaged and distributed from the centres. As well as cannabis for medical purposes, the factories would make body oil and baked goods.

The cash-strapped council is keen to approve the plan to generate cash in permit fees and taxes. The plan has been agreed to in principle.

If Oakland goes ahead, it will be the first place in the US to license such premises. California allows marijuana use for medicinal purposes, but will vote in November on making it legal for recreational use.

[excaza]

Just legalize pot and tax it like every other sale. End to this idiocy and a great new revenue stream.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

You gotta love the Bay Area

So what are people's thoughts on drug law reform? For? Against? Indifferent?

I'm for legalization, but this is stupid. A $211,000 annual permit fee?

They're just trying to cut open the Golden Goose to take all her eggs.

It's always been my contention that the government will tax legal marijuana to death, and this is a great example. They're counting on a revenue stream that simply isn't there, as 99% of the street cost of marijuana is the premium that comes with illegality.

[bit_pattern]

Marijuana in Amsterdam is sold at a comparable rate to America iirc

[pipelineaudio]

Just stop lying about it, say its for smoking and be done with it

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Marijuana in Amsterdam is sold at a comparable rate to America iirc

Marijuana is illegal in Amsterdam. It all comes from criminal black market sources, thus the high price.

[Kestrel]

Originally Posted by excaza

Just legalize pot and tax it like every other sale. End to this idiocy and a great new revenue stream.

We can't do that because it would interfere with the massive federal anti-drug pork barrel.

[MikeMangum]

Where would police departments get the funds to militarize? They wouldn't be able to afford the ultra cool looking SWAT uniforms. Nothing says "protect and serve" as loudly as a balaclava!

And where would police departments ever get the money for armored personnel carriers if drugs were legalized?

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

Marijuana in Amsterdam is sold at a comparable rate to America iirc

depends on what part of America.

My guess is that it's probably comparable with California's prices.

However, in Massachusetts, it's far more expensive for high quality stuff that would be even slightly comparable to Amsterdam's quality of weed.

[pipelineaudio]

Every time we get close in AZ, the pro legalization folks pull up this medical marajuana nonsense, at the same time as attacking tobacco and alcohol allies, and they lose every time.

We'd pass legalization of pot in an instant if the bill sponsors would stop treating us like idiots

[Ausmerican]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Every time we get close in AZ, the pro legalization folks pull up this medical marajuana nonsense, at the same time as attacking tobacco and alcohol allies, and they lose every time.

We'd pass legalization of pot in an instant if the bill sponsors would stop treating us like idiots

Absolutely!

Except for the fact that medical marijuana is not considered nonsense. Unless you think those cancer patients in their 70s in Cali are just wanting to get a hit, even if it has to be blown into their lungs for them.

And that we have rarely if ever, "gotten close" in AZ. Not if you mean legalizing smoking weed. Medical marijuana has passed every time it has come to a vote, only to be overturned or invalidated later

[Juniversal]

Originally Posted by WildCat

I'm for legalization, but this is stupid. A $211,000 annual permit fee?

They're just trying to cut open the Golden Goose to take all her eggs.

It's always been my contention that the government will tax legal marijuana to death, and this is a great example. They're counting on a revenue stream that simply isn't there, as 99% of the street cost of marijuana is the premium that comes with illegality.

It seems the test the waters but they will not take the dive. You would think these politicians would realize that the price has to be reasonable to eliminate OR effectively reduce the black market. Otherwise the legislation passing is of marginal significance if practically noone could buy it. Legally that is.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Ausmerican

Absolutely!

Except for the fact that medical marijuana is not considered nonsense. Unless you think those cancer patients in their 70s in Cali are just wanting to get a hit, even if it has to be blown into their lungs for them.

And that we have rarely if ever, "gotten close" in AZ. Not if you mean legalizing smoking weed. Medical marijuana has passed every time it has come to a vote, only to be overturned or invalidated later

If you've been watching in AZ, you know whos pushing these bills, and if even 1% had any actual medicinal need for marijuana I'd be surprised. I don't know anyone, even in conservative wickenburg who wants to spend a single penny keeping pot out of the state or out of the hands of consenting adults. I do however know many who don't appreciate a snowjob.

[bit_pattern]

Originally Posted by WildCat

Marijuana is illegal in Amsterdam. It all comes from criminal black market sources, thus the high price.

No it doesn't, it comes from businesses working in as close as you can get to a free market. In California it is virtually legal and operating in a competitive, open market, there is nothing to suggest that, aside from normal efficiency gains, that marijuana would become significantly cheaper than it is now once fully legal. and, like with any similar substance people are going to be prepared to pay 10% or 15% extra for the convenience of not having to grow/brew/distill their DOC. I really can't see why a similar tax regime that currently applies to alcohol can't be used for pot.

[Kestrel]

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

No it doesn't, it comes from businesses working in as close as you can get to a free market. In California it is virtually legal and operating in a competitive, open market, there is nothing to suggest that, aside from normal efficiency gains, that marijuana would become significantly cheaper than it is now once fully legal. and, like with any similar substance people are going to be prepared to pay 10% or 15% extra for the convenience of not having to grow/brew/distill their DOC. I really can't see why a similar tax regime that currently applies to alcohol can't be used for pot.

Do we really want to slap a heavy "sin tax" on marijuana used by a cancer patient to lessen the side effects of chemotherapy?

[The Fallen Serpent]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Do we really want to slap a heavy "sin tax" on marijuana used by a cancer patient to lessen the side effects of chemotherapy?

Terminally ill and cancer treament patients can be given a tax exempt status card. Similar to how terminally ill or non-mobile patients can have others acquire their medical pot for them even though in general that is not allowed. I think it might be possible to completely subsidize medical marijuana for that small class of people to the point of not charging them at all by appropriating a portion of the tax revenue gained to that purpose. Yes, I feel the number of recreational pot smokers really does dwarf the number of terminally ill and extreme treatment patients.

There are often tax exemptions for the unfortunate, why must it be assumed it is impossible or even difficult to take the usual stance with marijuana taxes?

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Do we really want to slap a heavy "sin tax" on marijuana used by a cancer patient to lessen the side effects of chemotherapy?

I, for one, would be perfectly happy with legalizing it and not taxing it.

[Kestrel]

Originally Posted by The Fallen Serpent

Terminally ill and cancer treament patients can be given a tax exempt status card. Similar to how terminally ill or non-mobile patients can have others acquire their medical pot for them even though in general that is not allowed. I think it might be possible to completely subsidize medical marijuana for that small class of people to the point of not charging them at all by appropriating a portion of the tax revenue gained to that purpose. Yes, I feel the number of recreational pot smokers really does dwarf the number of terminally ill and extreme treatment patients.

There are often tax exemptions for the unfortunate, why must it be assumed it is impossible or even difficult to take the usual stance with marijuana taxes?

The assumption that medical pot users really just want to get stoned is rather widespread. Therefore, high fees and heavy taxes are justified.

Does California slap a $200,000 annual licensing fee on factories producing any other kind of prescription drug?

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by WildCat

I'm for legalization, but this is stupid. A $211,000 annual permit fee?

They're just trying to cut open the Golden Goose to take all her eggs.

It's always been my contention that the government will tax legal marijuana to death, and this is a great example. They're counting on a revenue stream that simply isn't there, as 99% of the street cost of marijuana is the premium that comes with illegality.

Sure but the street cost has established what people will pay for it, why would they want prices to go down?

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Every time we get close in AZ, the pro legalization folks pull up this medical marajuana nonsense, at the same time as attacking tobacco and alcohol allies, and they lose every time.

We'd pass legalization of pot in an instant if the bill sponsors would stop treating us like idiots

After all we still need these laws to keep the mexicans in line damn it.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by bit_pattern

No it doesn't, it comes from businesses working in as close as you can get to a free market.

Yes, it does. Marijuana is illegal in the Netherlands.

Quote:

In California it is virtually legal and operating in a competitive, open market, there is nothing to suggest that, aside from normal efficiency gains, that marijuana would become significantly cheaper than it is now once fully legal. and, like with any similar substance people are going to be prepared to pay 10% or 15% extra for the convenience of not having to grow/brew/distill their DOC. I really can't see why a similar tax regime that currently applies to alcohol can't be used for pot.

And many marijuana growers in California are now in prison.

And the price is well above "10% or 15%" above production costs. More like 6,000%. Such a profit margin is unsustainable in an actual free market.

[Kestrel]

Originally Posted by WildCat

Yes, it does. Marijuana is illegal in the Netherlands.


And many marijuana growers in California are now in prison.

And the price is well above "10% or 15%" above production costs. More like 6,000%. Such a profit margin is unsustainable in an actual free market.

Production costs for growing marijuana should be in the same ballpark as the costs of growing oregano.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Sure but the street cost has established what people will pay for it, why would they want prices to go down?

I'm sure they don't want prices to go down. But the reality is the entire nation's demand for marijuana could be met with a few thousand acres under cultivation. Such a profit margin, once legal, would attract hundreds of thousands of acres under cultivation, resulting in an extreme glut. Prices plummet.

Like other niche crops, marijuana farming, if legal, would be part of a vertically integrated corporation. IOW, the marijuana companies would grow their own produce, much as spice companies grow their own. No farmer would take the initiative to grow it in hopes of selling it to a distributor (as corn is grown), because his chances of selling it are slim to none.

[WildCat]

Quote:

While the Netherlands liberal drugs policy means that smoking marijuana and selling it in special cafe's known as coffeeshops is decriminalised, growing and trading cannabis in wholesale quantities remains illegal.

Many Dutch coffeeshops buy their marijuana from criminal organisations which smuggle it into the Netherlands.

http://www.expatica.com/nl/news/dutc...als_32558.html

[GeeMack]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Sure but the street cost has established what people will pay for it, why would they want prices to go down?

When individuals aren't risking having their homes and property confiscated for simply growing enough to support their own desire and that of a handful of friends and neighbors, the economic dynamics are likely to change drastically. The price people are willing to pay for black market herb is weighed, among other criteria, against the risk of growing your own. Significantly reduce or eliminate that risk and it'll be a completely different ballgame.

Of course people will also weigh the time, effort, and cost of growing their own against what they're willing to pay for a commercially available product. But excellent marijuana can be grown cheaply in garages, basements, and backyards in pretty much any part of North America. And it doesn't take very many plants or very much garden space to keep a couple of people well supplied. So that line where the taxes make it more expensive to buy than to grow, where it becomes more reasonable to grow a couple of plants or get involved with a small co-op of friends, will likely be a lot lower than the current price of bootleg pot. Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of the price of herbs and spices, like a few dollars an ounce.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

After all we still need these laws to keep the mexicans in line damn it.

Getting rid of the laws would greatly reduce the harm that illegals cause. I don't know what it has to do with mexicans per se

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by WildCat

I'm sure they don't want prices to go down. But the reality is the entire nation's demand for marijuana could be met with a few thousand acres under cultivation. Such a profit margin, once legal, would attract hundreds of thousands of acres under cultivation, resulting in an extreme glut. Prices plummet.

Sure and you could sell pure grain alcohol for say a dollar a quart. You will never see that because people have an interest in keeping prices up.

[ponderingturtle]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Getting rid of the laws would greatly reduce the harm that illegals cause. I don't know what it has to do with mexicans per se

Because that is why they outlawed it in the first place. Because it was a drug of Mexicans and not proper Americans. The push to outlaw it came from the southwest to fight mexicans and from paper manufacturers. They even had studies at the time that showed that it wouldn't be helpful to outlaw it.

But rationality has always had little to do with this.

[kevinquinnyo]

Originally Posted by GeeMack

[...]

So that line where the taxes make it more expensive to buy than to grow, where it becomes more reasonable to grow a couple of plants or get involved with a small co-op of friends, will likely be a lot lower than the current price of bootleg pot. Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of the price of herbs and spices, like a few dollars an ounce.

I agree. And I can't imagine a way that marijuana possession be decriminalized, production legalized, and the price remain as high as it is today. The amount of taxation and fees imposed by the state would have to be higher than anything I can imagine in order for that to be true. I don't know of anything that is taxed in the 1000% range, and even the most left-wing, or draconian of politicians wouldn't write that bill, and of course, were marijuana taxed that much, people would likely just buy bootleg pot, and take the slap on the wrist if caught.

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Sure and you could sell pure grain alcohol for say a dollar a quart. You will never see that because people have an interest in keeping prices up.

Please, describe the mechanism that keeps a substance that costs a buck or 2 per ounce to grow to sell for $400/oz.

Bear in mind that entry barriers are so low as to be virtually non-existent.

[Tiktaalik]

Medical marijuana should be legalized just as soon as they can breed out that really bad side affect, intoxication.

Oddly, I don't hear many people pushing for research into intoxication-free pot...

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by kevinquinnyo

I agree. And I can't imagine a way that marijuana possession be decriminalized, production legalized, and the price remain as high as it is today. The amount of taxation and fees imposed by the state would have to be higher than anything I can imagine in order for that to be true. I don't know of anything that is taxed in the 1000% range, and even the most left-wing, or draconian of politicians wouldn't write that bill, and of course, were marijuana taxed that much, people would likely just buy bootleg pot, and take the slap on the wrist if caught.

The Federal tax alone on loose cigarette tobacco is just under $25/lb. State taxes add various amounts to that.

Admittedly that is not 1000%, but then tobacco isn't a Schedule I Controlled Substance that's been a Federal bad boy for three quarters of a century.

Yet.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Because that is why they outlawed it in the first place. Because it was a drug of Mexicans and not proper Americans.

As a Hawaiian, I'd like to see evidence of this

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

As a Hawaiian, I'd like to see evidence of this

It's well documented:

Quote:

The racist comments are nothing new, when you consider the words of Harry Anslinger, the architect of the “Reefer Madness” style campaign against marijuana that insured that the former Bureau of Prohibition agent could enjoy over 30 years of job security in his position as Commissioner of the newly formed Federal Bureau of Narcotics. Masterfully using the media, Anslinger effectively lead a campaign of lies and racism to shift the public’s opinion to acceptance of the government’s prohibition of marijuana that officially became law in 1937 despite objections from the American Medical Association.

Harry Anslinger quotes:

“There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz and swing, result from marijuana usage. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers and any others.”

“Reefer makes darkies think they’re as good as white men.”

“…the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races.”

http://www.examiner.com/x-18527-Brow...-insensitivity

[pipelineaudio]

Oh man! Music too!

[Beerina]

Well, good riddance to the attitudes in that quote, except for the bit about entertainers. I long for the days when "singing for your supper" put you at the bottom of the totem pole, not the top.

[pipelineaudio]

Originally Posted by Beerina

Well, good riddance to the attitudes in that quote, except for the bit about entertainers. I long for the days when "singing for your supper" put you at the bottom of the totem pole, not the top.

I long for the days when it put you on the totem pole at all. These days, you PAY to sing someplace where diners can hear you, except for a very small percentage of said singers

[marplots]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Sure and you could sell pure grain alcohol for say a dollar a quart. You will never see that because people have an interest in keeping prices up.

This is a very interesting point. I could make my own alcohol, I am not worried about getting busted. But I do not. I could, with some initial investment, make enough for my needs at a cheap enough price -- at least I think so. But I don't.

Is it different for marijuana?

How much does weed cost? I mean, for a semi-regular smoker? Is the amount a significant part of their budget?

[WildCat]

Originally Posted by marplots

This is a very interesting point. I could make my own alcohol, I am not worried about getting busted. But I do not. I could, with some initial investment, make enough for my needs at a cheap enough price -- at least I think so. But I don't.

Is it different for marijuana?

Imagine if a liter of whiskey cost $2,500.

Now you're in the ballpark to compare with the street price of marijuana.

[Paranormal Inquirer]

Exactly.

I think many from the pro-legalization crowd miss the point when we say that growing it will be too easy and far more convenient, and frankly the only option for some, due to it being heavily taxed. The general response is something like, "well I could technically grow my own tomatoes-- but it's far more convenient to just buy it from the grocery store."

I don't think that's a valid analogy considering it ignores the grand amount of tax we're talking here.