Free will and No choice

[sadhatter]

I would like to bring up an interesting point, and i have to start by relaying a bit of a story.

A while ago i was going through an ancient laptop of mine, and i happened to be bored enough to read the old winamp documentation. (i don't know if it is still in there, but i assume it is. ) And under the part that explained how the random function worked ( at that time you could choose how ' random' it was. If it was set at a low setting it would play certain patterns of songs constantly. If it was set up at the highest, you would more than likely not hear the same song twice in a day if you had a fairly big playlist. ) and it made the statement that " yes random means being able to play the same song twice, or even 10 times in a row. If it couldn't it wouldn't be random. " ( they then gave a solution if this issue came up.)

Now, to me the concept of free will, if it exists ( by this i mean if the christian religion were to be correct and there is a supernatural god that 'gave ' us free will.) would have to be somewhat similar. By this i mean that we should have the choice to not have free will. If not, then we really don't have free will because this god is limiting our choices in the matter.

What it is like saying ( and i believe i am paraphrasing here) is like what was said by an auto manufacturer when cars were first coming out " you can have any color you want, as long as its black." in this case it is " you can make any choice you want, other than having me run your life."

Now i can see a rebuttal to this being " you can follow the bible. " but this is an imperfect at best answer. If the christian mythology is right, i don't want to be taking my cues from a mortal. Someone who may have through legitimate mistake made an error in theology that could land me in hell. I want to be directly controlled by the big guy, to make absolutely sure i am doing the right thing. If almost every urge i have is evil, well i should have the choice not to have these urges.

So at best, the concept is "somewhat free will".

[Maia]

I don't know what it is with all these "free will" threads...

Eventually they will all collapse in on each other and form an enormous "free will" black hole. Nothing will escape except my cat, because there's just no way to keep him in the house.

Anyway... John Calvin actually flat-out SAID that ever since Adam, human beings do not have free will. At all. That's it. I think the reason nobody remembers that specific statement today is that nobody in their right mind would ever read the 1,000,000 volume set of Institutes of the Christian Religion.

[Atheist Girl]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

(snip)

if the christian religion were to be correct and there is a supernatural god that 'gave ' us free will.

(/snip)

Right, well, this kinda just ends the entire thread before it even begins then.

[Brian-M]

Originally Posted by sadhatter

yes random means being able to play the same song twice, or even 10 times in a row. If it couldn't it wouldn't be random. " ( they then gave a solution if this issue came up.)

Now, to me the concept of free will, if it exists ( by this i mean if the christian religion were to be correct and there is a supernatural god that 'gave ' us free will.) would have to be somewhat similar.

I agree. I certainly do have the capacity to use my free will to play the same song in my music collection twice, or even 10 times in a row.

Originally Posted by sadhatter

By this i mean that we should have the choice to not have free will. If not, then we really don't have free will because this god is limiting our choices in the matter.

You could choose to not have free will by committing suicide.
(I'm assuming that dead people don't have free will -- but since this is being discussed with a theological context, that may not necessarily hold true.)

I don't agree that limited choices is the same as not having free will. But you seem to be discussing a specifically Christian supernatural-based concept of free will. Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by free-will in this context? In what way does it differ from the basic concept of being the ability of a rational agent to make decisions?

Originally Posted by sadhatter

What it is like saying ( and i believe i am paraphrasing here) is like what was said by an auto manufacturer when cars were first coming out " you can have any color you want, as long as its black." in this case it is " you can make any choice you want, other than having me run your life."

Henry Ford's statement that "any customer can have a car painted any colour he wants so long as it is black" is an example of Hobson's choice, which isn't exactly the same as having no choice at all. I think the choice provided by Christianity falls into the same category. (Or possibly extortion.)

Originally Posted by sadhatter

So at best, the concept is "somewhat free will".

Presence of free will conceived as a magnitude rather than a simple yes/no proposition? I like that idea.