Crop circle debunking help needed - Page 21

chuck4842 · 20th January 2012, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Stray Cat

Really?

What exactly do you expect when I say I'll show you how to plot apparent complex geometry?

.

Exactly what are you expecting here?

The plotting and execution of complex geometry at night without errors,or getting caught, several times, several years, in the same small area of planet earth.

chuck4842 · 20th January 2012, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Robrob

I've seen this before. Wingnut makes claim he can't defend. Everyone else points out his flawed conclusion. Wingnut gets agitated and begins to blame the debunkers. Shortly thereafter, wingnut begins stream of consciousness drivel, soon to be followed by insults and profanity.

The end result is banning.

So the only thing left for you to do is curse, and I wouldn't be bothered with you anymore.

Resume · 20th January 2012, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

The plotting and execution of complex geometry at night without errors,or getting caught, several times, several years, in the same small area of planet earth.

As opposed to . . . what?

chuck4842 · 20th January 2012, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

As opposed to . . . what?

as opposed to sitting in a lit room and drawing lines on a page with a handsized straight edge, compass, or the worry of being arrested. Shot in my country.

RoboTimbo · 20th January 2012, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

as opposed to sitting in a lit room and drawing lines on a page with a handsized straight edge, compass, or the worry of being arrested. Shot in my country.

How do the aliens do it?

chuck4842 · 20th January 2012, 08:14 PM

Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves. Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice?

Akhenaten · 20th January 2012, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands?

<snip>

Why are you here, chuck? It's becoming increasingly obvious that you have no interest in the topic.

Resume · 20th January 2012, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves. Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice?

I have in my possession a number of legal firearms. In my wildest imagination I can't envision a scenario in which I might use them against someone rearranging the flora upon my property. Genius you might be but I posit this correlation you seek is unrobust theory.

chuck4842 · 20th January 2012, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Why are you here, chuck? It's becoming increasingly obvious that you have no interest in the topic.

I'm interested and lazy. How could you say that? Oh, Australia still has guns. Not for long, citizens like you will hand them over like the coop sheep you are.

chuck4842 · 20th January 2012, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

I have in my possession a number of legal firearms. In my wildest imagination I can't envision a scenario in which I might use them against someone rearranging the flora upon my property. Genius you might be but I posit this correlation you seek is unrobust theory.

I wouldn't kill anyone either, but you gotta admit, for the culprit, the thought is a deterrent.

tsig · 20th January 2012, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Why are you here, chuck? It's becoming increasingly obvious that you have no interest in the topic.

Somewhere there's a lonely bridge.

Akhenaten · 20th January 2012, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

Somewhere there's a lonely bridge.

Yeah, I guess there are only so many firestarters and airbenders to go around.

zooterkin · 20th January 2012, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves.

There is one section of the British population that is much more likely to have firearms than any other. They use them for controlling vermin and other threats to their livestock and crops. Can you guess who they are?

Pixel42 · 21st January 2012, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

Pray tell us, chuck, when were you last in Wiltshire in the summertime, out doing a night watch on Knap Hill, or gently tootling back to your tent from the pub at one in the morning?

It might be worth pointing out that nights are quite short here during the summer. In June it's starting to get light as early as 4 a.m. Plenty of time to put the finishing touches to your crop circle in full daylight before even the earliest-rising farmer is out and about.

Lamuella · 21st January 2012, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

I'm guessing that strange environmental factors found inside a formation is of no interest.

it's of interest if you can show a connection between the two. Otherwise it's a thing happening at the same time as another thing. You don't even have correlation here, much less causation.

Lamuella · 21st January 2012, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

The plotting and execution of complex geometry at night without errors,or getting caught, several times, several years, in the same small area of planet earth.

my god, I can't wait until you find out that graffiti exists. The plotting and execution of complex artwork at night, without errors, on the walls of busy streets? You are going to flip your lid.

zooterkin · 21st January 2012, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice?

Well, I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for aliens, but it's a long commute from the South of England.

I don't think the guns are a factor, though, since Chinese citizens aren't allowed to have them at all (unlike British farmers, who commonly have shotguns).

Lamuella · 21st January 2012, 01:41 AM

I'm no longer sure what point Chuck is trying to make. He's accepted that it's possible for humans to make crop circles, so... what's he even arguing about now?

23_Tauri · 21st January 2012, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves. Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice?

Yes chuck, why are you here? You don't seem interested in learning anything about crop circles, only maintain your stance that it's not possible for all the crop circles in England to be made by people because:

1. England is simultaneoulsy both pitch black and very lit up at night, allowing circlemakers to not see what they're doing, and for farmers to be able to keep watch over the full extent of their fields whilst walking the dog at two o'clock in the morning;

2. England is very small but at the same time quite big as it has remote dark corners where anything can happen;

3. On a small budget you could surveil all the fields in England and poke yer gurrn in the face of those pot-smoking hoodlums dirtyin' up them fields.

By the way, if you want to discuss gun control, try Social Issues and Current Events. There's usually a thread running on that very subject down there. You might even meet some like minded souls.

We've never been big on gun ownership over here, so they've never been "taken out of our hands" so to speak. They were never really there in the first place. It's not in our constitution to own guns (yes, you are supposed to be able to read that two ways). In the UK you can own some types of firearm, if you have a licence, and as Zooterkin pointed out there is one group of people who more often than the general population will have a gun in the house.

Now, back to crop circles.

Stray Cat · 21st January 2012, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

The plotting and execution of complex geometry at night without errors,or getting caught, several times, several years, in the same small area of planet earth.

If you look at any crop circle website, you'll see this already happens and has been happening on a regular basis for about 30 odd years.

Though I don't know exactly what this has to do with me doing some computer diagrams to help explain how easy the geometry is to plot out.
It's a bit like suggesting that someone isn't teaching nuclear physics properly unless they set off an atom bomb in the classroom. Or someone learning Architecture complaining that all they ever get to do is draw small diagrams on computers instead of building massive buildings with diggers and everything.

23_Tauri · 21st January 2012, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves. Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice?

I think a short interlude to explain how crop circles have travelled to different countries is useful here.

Crop circles of any degree of complexity, that is everything more than a simple circle, started appearing in southern England in the 1980s, but didn't really get going until the late 80s and early 90s. It was then that they caught the attention of the media, and a formation in East Field, Alton Barnes, Wiltshire was used on on the cover of Led Zep's Remasters album. With this exposure, tourists started to come to England each summer to visit the circles, some also hoping that they might have some odd experiences along the way. These visitors came mainly from the continent, mainly France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway and Italy, and also from the USA.

After a while, formations started appearing in these countries too, with the numbers and locations of international circles bearing a similarity to the numbers and origins of tourists to England's Wiltshire county.

Now, chuck, why do you think this was happening? Do you think the aliens were following our happy holidaymakers back home again? Or do you think it might be an example of what is known as cultural diffusion?

We don't get many Chinese tourists, or at least we didn't until very recently (there's quite an influx of affluent Chinese into London these days, mainly for shopping it would seem), so maybe you'd want to mull that over too.

zooterkin · 21st January 2012, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

We don't get many Chinese tourists, or at least we didn't until very recently (there's quite an influx of affluent Chinese into London these days, mainly for shopping it would seem), so maybe you'd want to mull that over too.

I also wouldn't know how well rice would lend itself to making crop circles, nor how the authorities would treat someone caught making them.

quarky · 21st January 2012, 05:29 PM

Wasting food has to be a bigger offense in poor countries.
Any guesses on the tourist dollar value of crop circles?
It likely exceeds the lost grain.

Hence, the government is making them. For revenue.

Stray Cat · 21st January 2012, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

Hence, the government is making them. For revenue.

What a silly idea... Oh hang on, this is politicians we're talking about... hey, you may be onto something.

or not.

theprestige · 21st January 2012, 05:55 PM

chuck4842, if all these English farmers are staying up at night watching their fields, how come none of them ever talk about it?

Why aren't there ever any reports from farmers, of circles that were made in fields while they watched?

Why haven't any farmers ever caught the aliens in the act? If they could catch people in the act, why not aliens? Surely we should be hearing about all the aliens the farmers have discovered, right?

At the very least, England should be teeming with farmers telling stories about lost time or mysterious forces manipulating their crops before their very eyes. Why don't we have any of this?

Safe-Keeper · 21st January 2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

I have in my possession a number of legal firearms. In my wildest imagination I can't envision a scenario in which I might use them against someone rearranging the flora upon my property. Genius you might be but I posit this correlation you seek is unrobust theory.

Yeah, when Western countries are concerned, the whole "burglars and trespassers are best countered by waving lethal weaponry and beating your chest" thing is pretty much restricted to the US, it seems. You won't find it in Europe to nearly the same degree.

Quote:

I wouldn't kill anyone either, but you gotta admit, for the culprit, the thought is a deterrent.

Yes, the thought of someone waiting in the bushes with a firearm, possibly to shoot and kill me, would indeed be a deterrent if I was some innocent prankster. This still doesn't make the idea anywhere close to halfway sane, though.

Quote:

I'm no longer sure what point Chuck is trying to make. He's accepted that it's possible for humans to make crop circles, so... what's he even arguing about now?

I'm still rather peeved at the "crop circles must be alien-made" believers. In their eyes, the same humans capable of building this:

...are incapable of pressing geometric shapes into a corn field.

Sad.

quarky · 21st January 2012, 07:09 PM

yes, safe-Keeper.

But.

(There's always a but.)

The humans that made that rather garish structure in your picture had a monetary incentive.
That's what makes them human.

what possible incentive would humans have for mashing weird patterns in fields of barley?

Hence, aliens.
or government secret agents.

Gulp.

Is it possible that the government is the aliens?

Its all starting to make sense to me now.

Akhenaten · 21st January 2012, 07:29 PM

Mwahahahahahahaha!

quarky · 21st January 2012, 09:28 PM

Doomed, i tell you.

Akhenaten · 21st January 2012, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by quarky

Doomed, i tell you.

I think you're right. I can only conclude from that picture that Kansas either has lots and lots of bored college students, lots and lots of aliens, or lots and lots of blind farmers (or some combination of those things)

Run, Toto, run!

Lamuella · 22nd January 2012, 02:04 AM

to be honest, the increasing complexity of crop circles is a brilliant argument for crop circles being man-made.

If it were aliens or a natural phenomenon, then they would be about the same complexity level whenever we saw them. Earthquakes aren't getting more complex after all.

However, if they're a cultural phenomenon, examples of human-made art, then it's natural that they would get more complex. The more of them people do, the more ambitious people get at doing them.

What we're seeing is exactly what we would expect to see from crop circles made by humans.

23_Tauri · 22nd January 2012, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

to be honest, the increasing complexity of crop circles is a brilliant argument for crop circles being man-made.

If it were aliens or a natural phenomenon, then they would be about the same complexity level whenever we saw them. Earthquakes aren't getting more complex after all.

However, if they're a cultural phenomenon, examples of human-made art, then it's natural that they would get more complex. The more of them people do, the more ambitious people get at doing them.

What we're seeing is exactly what we would expect to see from crop circles made by humans.

Do you know what the wooster's explanation of this is? It's because the aleeyns are teaching us their language. They know we find it hard to decipher the messages in their crop circles, so they kept it simple to begin with and then made them gradually more complex as we learnt to de-code them. Sort of ABC, before moving onto stringing a sentence together.

You may laugh, but I've actually heard crop circle researchers (or 'cerealogists') put forward this theory in talks to woo audiences.

Drs_Res · 22nd January 2012, 02:58 AM

I have said it before, and I'll say it again.

Originally Posted by Drs_Res

I have it all figured out.

The aliens are here and in contact with all the governments of the world, now we all know how long it takes a government bureaucracy to get anything done, right? Well multiply that by all the world's governments needing to get on the same page all at the same time to answer the alien's questions, negotiate or whatever. It's going to take a lot of time to form a consensus and respond to the aliens.

The crop circles are not messages to us, it's the bored aliens doodling while they wait for a response from the governments of the world.

Either that or they are the alien equivalent of Post-it notes.

Aepervius · 22nd January 2012, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by chuck4842

as opposed to sitting in a lit room and drawing lines on a page with a handsized straight edge, compass, or the worry of being arrested. Shot in my country.

I did quite a few crop circle in my time, back middle on 90's, near compiegne/france, with a few friend. None of them made the news, books, or even local rag sadly. We always had hopped the local pilot would photography it.

It is not as complex as you might think it is in the field, once you got it organised although we did have to have a few do over for the first one to get the correct tools, and a lot of preparation on a big big piece of paper. And a lot of triggo.

What specific question do you have ? I can tell you how we did ours. Hint : it does not involve high level stuff (except a giant protractor gotten from my father engineering job, lotta thin rope, planks, and at a time we even used my cat favorite toy : a mouse with a laser pointer in it). And yeah you can get by with not much light near 5 am.

tsig · 22nd January 2012, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Akhenaten

Mwahahahahahahaha!

http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/Hos...ropCircles.jpg

OMG the aliens are playing some sort of strange board game on planet earth!!

tsig · 22nd January 2012, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

I did quite a few crop circle in my time, back middle on 90's, near compiegne/france, with a few friend. None of them made the news, books, or even local rag sadly. We always had hopped the local pilot would photography it.

It is not as complex as you might think it is in the field, once you got it organised although we did have to have a few do over for the first one to get the correct tools, and a lot of preparation on a big big piece of paper. And a lot of triggo.

What specific question do you have ? I can tell you how we did ours. Hint : it does not involve high level stuff (except a giant protractor gotten from my father engineering job, lotta thin rope, planks, and at a time we even used my cat favorite toy : a mouse with a laser pointer in it). And yeah you can get by with not much light near 5 am.

You're either an alien or an alien shill posting here as a disinformation agent./CT nut mode off

Stray Cat · 22nd January 2012, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by tsig

OMG the aliens are playing some sort of strange board game on planet earth!!

I don't know about a "board game" but there are certainly elements of Pacman in that pic.

Lamuella · 22nd January 2012, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

Do you know what the wooster's explanation of this is? It's because the aleeyns are teaching us their language. They know we find it hard to decipher the messages in their crop circles, so they kept it simple to begin with and then made them gradually more complex as we learnt to de-code them. Sort of ABC, before moving onto stringing a sentence together.

You may laugh, but I've actually heard crop circle researchers (or 'cerealogists') put forward this theory in talks to woo audiences.

If this is the case, shouldn't they wait until we have "learned" the first part?

I think a fun game would be to take a series of photos of circles where the makers are known, a series of photos of circles where the makers are not known, shuffle them, and ask a cerealogist who hasn't seen them before to pick out the alien ones.

23_Tauri · 22nd January 2012, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Lamuella

If this is the case, shouldn't they wait until we have "learned" the first part?

Going by the amount of crop circle interpretations available online it would appear that a very special group of ~~woos~~ people out there who have been gifted with the ability to decipher this arcane, alien language, and have been following the conversation all along.

See here for an example of croppie crop circle interpretation gone into hyperdrive.

Originally Posted by Lamuella

I think a fun game would be to take a series of photos of circles where the makers are known, a series of photos of circles where the makers are not known, shuffle them, and ask a cerealogist who hasn't seen them before to pick out the alien ones.

Would be an interesting exercise, however the vast majority of formations remain anonymous. It's mainly only those carried out for commercial purposes who have known authors, and most cerealogists will be well aware of these 'hoaxes' already.

zooterkin · 22nd January 2012, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by 23_Tauri

See here for an example of croppie crop circle interpretation gone into hyperdrive.

20th January 2012, 07:36 PM	#801
chuck4842 Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Piedmont NC Posts: 605	Originally Posted by Stray Cat Really? What exactly do you expect when I say I'll show you how to plot apparent complex geometry? . Exactly what are you expecting here? The plotting and execution of complex geometry at night without errors,or getting caught, several times, several years, in the same small area of planet earth.
	__________________ Extraordinary discoveries have been made using mundane evidence.

20th January 2012, 07:44 PM	#802
chuck4842 Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Piedmont NC Posts: 605	Originally Posted by Robrob I've seen this before. Wingnut makes claim he can't defend. Everyone else points out his flawed conclusion. Wingnut gets agitated and begins to blame the debunkers. Shortly thereafter, wingnut begins stream of consciousness drivel, soon to be followed by insults and profanity. The end result is banning. So the only thing left for you to do is curse, and I wouldn't be bothered with you anymore.
	__________________ Extraordinary discoveries have been made using mundane evidence.

20th January 2012, 07:47 PM	#803
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,011	Originally Posted by chuck4842 The plotting and execution of complex geometry at night without errors,or getting caught, several times, several years, in the same small area of planet earth. As opposed to . . . what?
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,011

20th January 2012, 07:58 PM	#804
chuck4842 Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Piedmont NC Posts: 605	Originally Posted by Resume As opposed to . . . what? as opposed to sitting in a lit room and drawing lines on a page with a handsized straight edge, compass, or the worry of being arrested. Shot in my country.
	__________________ Extraordinary discoveries have been made using mundane evidence.

20th January 2012, 08:14 PM	#806
chuck4842 Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Piedmont NC Posts: 605	Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves. Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice?
	__________________ Extraordinary discoveries have been made using mundane evidence.

20th January 2012, 08:01 PM	#805
RoboTimbo Hostile Nanobacon Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Prosperity, AZ Posts: 21,821	Originally Posted by chuck4842 as opposed to sitting in a lit room and drawing lines on a page with a handsized straight edge, compass, or the worry of being arrested. Shot in my country. How do the aliens do it?

20th January 2012, 08:23 PM	#807
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,629	Originally Posted by chuck4842 Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? <snip> Why are you here, chuck? It's becoming increasingly obvious that you have no interest in the topic.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

20th January 2012, 08:23 PM	#808
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,011	Originally Posted by chuck4842 Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves. Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice? I have in my possession a number of legal firearms. In my wildest imagination I can't envision a scenario in which I might use them against someone rearranging the flora upon my property. Genius you might be but I posit this correlation you seek is unrobust theory.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,011	Last edited by Resume; 20th January 2012 at 08:24 PM.

20th January 2012, 08:30 PM	#809
chuck4842 Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Piedmont NC Posts: 605	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Why are you here, chuck? It's becoming increasingly obvious that you have no interest in the topic. I'm interested and lazy. How could you say that? Oh, Australia still has guns. Not for long, citizens like you will hand them over like the coop sheep you are.
	__________________ Extraordinary discoveries have been made using mundane evidence.

20th January 2012, 08:32 PM	#810
chuck4842 Muse Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Piedmont NC Posts: 605	Originally Posted by Resume I have in my possession a number of legal firearms. In my wildest imagination I can't envision a scenario in which I might use them against someone rearranging the flora upon my property. Genius you might be but I posit this correlation you seek is unrobust theory. I wouldn't kill anyone either, but you gotta admit, for the culprit, the thought is a deterrent.
	__________________ Extraordinary discoveries have been made using mundane evidence.

20th January 2012, 09:43 PM	#811
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,635	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Why are you here, chuck? It's becoming increasingly obvious that you have no interest in the topic. Somewhere there's a lonely bridge.

20th January 2012, 09:52 PM	#812
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,629	Originally Posted by tsig Somewhere there's a lonely bridge. Yeah, I guess there are only so many firestarters and airbenders to go around.
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

20th January 2012, 11:55 PM	#813
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,531	Originally Posted by chuck4842 Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves. There is one section of the British population that is much more likely to have firearms than any other. They use them for controlling vermin and other threats to their livestock and crops. Can you guess who they are?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Last edited by zooterkin; 21st January 2012 at 01:34 AM.

21st January 2012, 12:34 AM	#814
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 4,217	Originally Posted by 23_Tauri Pray tell us, chuck, when were you last in Wiltshire in the summertime, out doing a night watch on Knap Hill, or gently tootling back to your tent from the pub at one in the morning? It might be worth pointing out that nights are quite short here during the summer. In June it's starting to get light as early as 4 a.m. Plenty of time to put the finishing touches to your crop circle in full daylight before even the earliest-rising farmer is out and about.
	__________________ "The correct scientific response to anything that is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause". David Attenborough.

21st January 2012, 01:27 AM	#815
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	Originally Posted by chuck4842 I'm guessing that strange environmental factors found inside a formation is of no interest. it's of interest if you can show a connection between the two. Otherwise it's a thing happening at the same time as another thing. You don't even have correlation here, much less causation.
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

21st January 2012, 01:35 AM	#816
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	Originally Posted by chuck4842 The plotting and execution of complex geometry at night without errors,or getting caught, several times, several years, in the same small area of planet earth. my god, I can't wait until you find out that graffiti exists. The plotting and execution of complex artwork at night, without errors, on the walls of busy streets? You are going to flip your lid.
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

21st January 2012, 01:38 AM	#817
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,531	Originally Posted by chuck4842 Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice? Well, I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for aliens, but it's a long commute from the South of England. I don't think the guns are a factor, though, since Chinese citizens aren't allowed to have them at all (unlike British farmers, who commonly have shotguns).
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

21st January 2012, 01:41 AM	#818
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	I'm no longer sure what point Chuck is trying to make. He's accepted that it's possible for humans to make crop circles, so... what's he even arguing about now?
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

21st January 2012, 02:19 AM	#819
23_Tauri Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 4,947	Originally Posted by chuck4842 Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves. Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice? Yes chuck, why are you here? You don't seem interested in learning anything about crop circles, only maintain your stance that it's not possible for all the crop circles in England to be made by people because: 1. England is simultaneoulsy both pitch black and very lit up at night, allowing circlemakers to not see what they're doing, and for farmers to be able to keep watch over the full extent of their fields whilst walking the dog at two o'clock in the morning; 2. England is very small but at the same time quite big as it has remote dark corners where anything can happen; 3. On a small budget you could surveil all the fields in England and poke yer gurrn in the face of those pot-smoking hoodlums dirtyin' up them fields. By the way, if you want to discuss gun control, try Social Issues and Current Events. There's usually a thread running on that very subject down there. You might even meet some like minded souls. We've never been big on gun ownership over here, so they've never been "taken out of our hands" so to speak. They were never really there in the first place. It's not in our constitution to own guns (yes, you are supposed to be able to read that two ways). In the UK you can own some types of firearm, if you have a licence, and as Zooterkin pointed out there is one group of people who more often than the general population will have a gun in the house. Now, back to crop circles.
	__________________ Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw. Last edited by 23_Tauri; 21st January 2012 at 02:21 AM.

21st January 2012, 04:15 AM	#820
Stray Cat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Land That Time Forgot Posts: 6,505	Originally Posted by chuck4842 The plotting and execution of complex geometry at night without errors,or getting caught, several times, several years, in the same small area of planet earth. If you look at any crop circle website, you'll see this already happens and has been happening on a regular basis for about 30 odd years. Though I don't know exactly what this has to do with me doing some computer diagrams to help explain how easy the geometry is to plot out. It's a bit like suggesting that someone isn't teaching nuclear physics properly unless they set off an atom bomb in the classroom. Or someone learning Architecture complaining that all they ever get to do is draw small diagrams on computers instead of building massive buildings with diggers and everything.
	__________________ It's only my madness that stops me from going insane!

21st January 2012, 06:19 AM	#821
23_Tauri Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 4,947	Originally Posted by chuck4842 Would it be lazy of me to ask what year England took guns out of the citizens hands? Maybe there's a correlation between the simple circles and the timetable of the complexity of the formations. But the genius I am, I'd just say the aliens felt more compelled to the advancements this particular part of humanity has made by disarming themselves. Why not then make formations in China though? Are the chinese short on mathematicians? Or rice? I think a short interlude to explain how crop circles have travelled to different countries is useful here. Crop circles of any degree of complexity, that is everything more than a simple circle, started appearing in southern England in the 1980s, but didn't really get going until the late 80s and early 90s. It was then that they caught the attention of the media, and a formation in East Field, Alton Barnes, Wiltshire was used on on the cover of Led Zep's Remasters album. With this exposure, tourists started to come to England each summer to visit the circles, some also hoping that they might have some odd experiences along the way. These visitors came mainly from the continent, mainly France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway and Italy, and also from the USA. After a while, formations started appearing in these countries too, with the numbers and locations of international circles bearing a similarity to the numbers and origins of tourists to England's Wiltshire county. Now, chuck, why do you think this was happening? Do you think the aliens were following our happy holidaymakers back home again? Or do you think it might be an example of what is known as cultural diffusion? We don't get many Chinese tourists, or at least we didn't until very recently (there's quite an influx of affluent Chinese into London these days, mainly for shopping it would seem), so maybe you'd want to mull that over too.
	__________________ Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw. Last edited by 23_Tauri; 21st January 2012 at 06:29 AM.

21st January 2012, 11:58 AM	#822
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 24,531	Originally Posted by 23_Tauri We don't get many Chinese tourists, or at least we didn't until very recently (there's quite an influx of affluent Chinese into London these days, mainly for shopping it would seem), so maybe you'd want to mull that over too. I also wouldn't know how well rice would lend itself to making crop circles, nor how the authorities would treat someone caught making them.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232

21st January 2012, 05:29 PM	#823
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Wasting food has to be a bigger offense in poor countries. Any guesses on the tourist dollar value of crop circles? It likely exceeds the lost grain. Hence, the government is making them. For revenue.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

21st January 2012, 05:35 PM	#824
Stray Cat Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: The Land That Time Forgot Posts: 6,505	Originally Posted by quarky Hence, the government is making them. For revenue. What a silly idea... Oh hang on, this is politicians we're talking about... hey, you may be onto something. or not.
	__________________ It's only my madness that stops me from going insane!

21st January 2012, 05:55 PM	#825
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,566	chuck4842, if all these English farmers are staying up at night watching their fields, how come none of them ever talk about it? Why aren't there ever any reports from farmers, of circles that were made in fields while they watched? Why haven't any farmers ever caught the aliens in the act? If they could catch people in the act, why not aliens? Surely we should be hearing about all the aliens the farmers have discovered, right? At the very least, England should be teeming with farmers telling stories about lost time or mysterious forces manipulating their crops before their very eyes. Why don't we have any of this?
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,566

21st January 2012, 06:07 PM	#826
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,120	Quote: I have in my possession a number of legal firearms. In my wildest imagination I can't envision a scenario in which I might use them against someone rearranging the flora upon my property. Genius you might be but I posit this correlation you seek is unrobust theory. Yeah, when Western countries are concerned, the whole "burglars and trespassers are best countered by waving lethal weaponry and beating your chest" thing is pretty much restricted to the US, it seems. You won't find it in Europe to nearly the same degree. Quote: I wouldn't kill anyone either, but you gotta admit, for the culprit, the thought is a deterrent. Yes, the thought of someone waiting in the bushes with a firearm, possibly to shoot and kill me, would indeed be a deterrent if I was some innocent prankster. This still doesn't make the idea anywhere close to halfway sane, though. Quote: I'm no longer sure what point Chuck is trying to make. He's accepted that it's possible for humans to make crop circles, so... what's he even arguing about now? I'm still rather peeved at the "crop circles must be alien-made" believers. In their eyes, the same humans capable of building this: ...are incapable of pressing geometric shapes into a corn field. Sad.
	Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 21st January 2012 at 06:12 PM.

21st January 2012, 07:09 PM	#827
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	yes, safe-Keeper. But. (There's always a but.) The humans that made that rather garish structure in your picture had a monetary incentive. That's what makes them human. what possible incentive would humans have for mashing weird patterns in fields of barley? Hence, aliens. or government secret agents. Gulp. Is it possible that the government is the aliens? Its all starting to make sense to me now.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

21st January 2012, 07:29 PM	#828
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,629	Mwahahahahahahaha!
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

21st January 2012, 09:28 PM	#829
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454	Doomed, i tell you.
quarky Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 20,454

21st January 2012, 10:37 PM	#830
Akhenaten Heretic Pharaoh Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia Posts: 24,629	Originally Posted by quarky Doomed, i tell you. I think you're right. I can only conclude from that picture that Kansas either has lots and lots of bored college students, lots and lots of aliens, or lots and lots of blind farmers (or some combination of those things) Run, Toto, run!
	__________________ Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon The Australasian Skeptics Forum

22nd January 2012, 02:04 AM	#831
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480	to be honest, the increasing complexity of crop circles is a brilliant argument for crop circles being man-made. If it were aliens or a natural phenomenon, then they would be about the same complexity level whenever we saw them. Earthquakes aren't getting more complex after all. However, if they're a cultural phenomenon, examples of human-made art, then it's natural that they would get more complex. The more of them people do, the more ambitious people get at doing them. What we're seeing is exactly what we would expect to see from crop circles made by humans.
Lamuella Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,480

22nd January 2012, 02:26 AM	#832
23_Tauri Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Posts: 4,947	Originally Posted by Lamuella to be honest, the increasing complexity of crop circles is a brilliant argument for crop circles being man-made. If it were aliens or a natural phenomenon, then they would be about the same complexity level whenever we saw them. Earthquakes aren't getting more complex after all. However, if they're a cultural phenomenon, examples of human-made art, then it's natural that they would get more complex. The more of them people do, the more ambitious people get at doing them. What we're seeing is exactly what we would expect to see from crop circles made by humans. Do you know what the wooster's explanation of this is? It's because the aleeyns are teaching us their language. They know we find it hard to decipher the messages in their crop circles, so they kept it simple to begin with and then made them gradually more complex as we learnt to de-code them. Sort of ABC, before moving onto stringing a sentence together. You may laugh, but I've actually heard crop circle researchers (or 'cerealogists') put forward this theory in talks to woo audiences.
	__________________ Little Miss Witchcraft, she's not made of straw.

22nd January 2012, 02:58 AM	#833
Drs_Res NWO Acorn Hoarder Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: N 34 3 8 / W 118 14 33 Posts: 1,829	I have said it before, and I'll say it again. Originally Posted by Drs_Res I have it all figured out. The aliens are here and in contact with all the governments of the world, now we all know how long it takes a government bureaucracy to get anything done, right? Well multiply that by all the world's governments needing to get on the same page all at the same time to answer the alien's questions, negotiate or whatever. It's going to take a lot of time to form a consensus and respond to the aliens. The crop circles are not messages to us, it's the bored aliens doodling while they wait for a response from the governments of the world. Either that or they are the alien equivalent of Post-it notes.
	__________________ Vote Bunk and vote often. If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. "Yes, well, I'm polymerized tree sap and you're an inorganic adhesive, so whatever verbal projectile you launch in my direction is reflected off of me, returns on its original trajectory and adheres to you." - Sheldon - TBBT

22nd January 2012, 05:03 AM	#834
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,729	Originally Posted by chuck4842 as opposed to sitting in a lit room and drawing lines on a page with a handsized straight edge, compass, or the worry of being arrested. Shot in my country. I did quite a few crop circle in my time, back middle on 90's, near compiegne/france, with a few friend. None of them made the news, books, or even local rag sadly. We always had hopped the local pilot would photography it. It is not as complex as you might think it is in the field, once you got it organised although we did have to have a few do over for the first one to get the correct tools, and a lot of preparation on a big big piece of paper. And a lot of triggo. What specific question do you have ? I can tell you how we did ours. Hint : it does not involve high level stuff (except a giant protractor gotten from my father engineering job, lotta thin rope, planks, and at a time we even used my cat favorite toy : a mouse with a laser pointer in it). And yeah you can get by with not much light near 5 am.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

22nd January 2012, 06:29 AM	#835
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,635	Originally Posted by Akhenaten Mwahahahahahahaha! http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/Hos...ropCircles.jpg OMG the aliens are playing some sort of strange board game on planet earth!!