Florida Church to burn the Koran in memory of 9-11 - Page 10

ANTPogo · 10th September 2010, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Has any of them people ever been elected? Germany's contemporary Nazi party has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...Recent_history

And if we compare the two countries, Germany has much more influencial Nazi parties and organizations per capita than the US.

You asked if America had a Nazi party, and where it was. I provided you with that information.

You're welcome.

ddt · 10th September 2010, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Has any of them people ever been elected? Germany's contemporary Nazi party has.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...Recent_history

Comparing apples with oranges. Germany has proportional representation, which means that smaller parties can get into parliament. The Bundestag currently has six parties. The US has first-past-the-post, which means that the system automatically gravitates towards a two-party system where other parties are marginalized.

Could you also provide evidence that the NPD is a neo-Nazi party? The German Constitutional Court would like to hear it. I'm not defending them, I find them abhorrent, but the prima facie evidence against them being Nazis is that they haven't been banned.

Originally Posted by Pardalis

And if we compare the two countries, Germany has much more influencial Nazi parties and organizations per capita than the US.

Evidence?

Pardalis · 10th September 2010, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by ddt

Could you also provide evidence that the NPD is a neo-Nazi party?

Oh come one.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-Germany.html

Which 'alive and well' Nazi party did Chaos refer to? Except a few unknown entities I can't seem to find what he is referring to.

BTW, isn't his behavior towards Americans bigoted? He is using a few to blame the whole country. In another thread, we are told that this sort of attitude is called "bigoted", but since it's America that is the target of the complaints that makes it OK...

Quote:

Evidence?

Keep in mind Germany is 82 million, and the US 300 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Germany

ddt · 10th September 2010, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Oh come one.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-Germany.html

I see. An article from the Torygraph is more convincing than a case before the Karlsruhe court.

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Which 'alive and well' Nazi party did Chaos refer to? Except a few unknown entities I can't seem to find what he is referring to.

He said he didn't mean a German party. You'd have to ask him.

Originally Posted by Pardalis

BTW, isn't his behavior towards Americans bigoted? He is using a few to blame the whole country. In another thread, we are told that this sort of attitude is called "bigoted", but since it's America that is the target of the complaints that makes it OK...

His first post in this thread was over the top, I'll give you that, but he nuanced his statement in the second. And frankly, I agree with that sentiment. In the same vein, I'm afraid if you asked someone somewhere around the world to name a Dutch politician, the answer would be Geert Wilders and not Mark Rutte or Job Cohen or Maxime Verhagen.

Given the sentiments you've been expressing about Germany - not just in this thread but also in other recent threads - I'd say: when you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones.

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Keep in mind Germany is 82 million, and the US 300 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Germany

That's the number of inhabitants. Now I'm awaiting your evidence for the number of neo-Nazis.

eeyore1954 · 10th September 2010, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

That this entire episode even happened sickens me. That there even needed to be debate over this saddens me. That this kind of thing is still talked about and planned by supposedly "civilized" people makes me wonder if there is any real hope for the Human Species at all.

You should feel good about the human race if only one person in America is planning a public burning of the Koran. When you have a few hundred million people there are always some who are (Stupid,Crazy, publicity hungry, trying to raise money, a Big Mac short of a combo, ????) choose one.

i am certain this isn't the first Koran burning but it was certainly the most overpublicized.

Travis · 10th September 2010, 09:01 PM

Chaos, what exactly were we supposed to do about it? The only way in which it could be legally obstructed turned out to be the way that people did get it obstructed. But if he's really determined he can find a location where, with the proper permits and insurance, he can carry out this act. And what, in your mind, should we do about that if it comes to that? I propose we do nothing but condemn it and try explain to others why it is wrong. As wrong as the people who let their frivolity of offense get the better of them and opposed the Muslim Community Center two blocks from the WTC.

bynmdsue · 10th September 2010, 10:15 PM

I fergot suspicion isn't skepticism.

Unless it was an imam threatening to burn a bible and a Republican AG had his goons from the FBI visit him. Then conclusions could be drawn that those wicked men in Washington were chilling Freedom of Expression.

GreNME · 10th September 2010, 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

I fergot suspicion isn't skepticism.

Unless it was an imam threatening to burn a bible and a Republican AG had his goons from the FBI visit him. Then conclusions could be drawn that those wicked men in Washington were chilling Freedom of Expression.

And I'll repeat it again for the pervasive ignorance prevalent here: Islam considers the Christian bible a sacred document and not to be treated poorly. Islam considers Jesus a prophet and his words from God/Allah, thus it would be wrong to burn a Christian bible.

johnny karate · 10th September 2010, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

I fergot suspicion isn't skepticism.

Unless it was an imam threatening to burn a bible and a Republican AG had his goons from the FBI visit him. Then conclusions could be drawn that those wicked men in Washington were chilling Freedom of Expression.

Poor, down-trodden Christians.

They just can't seem to catch a break in America, can they?

Lamafarmer · 10th September 2010, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by Chaos

if you want [...] - wish granted.

Granting the lowly Yanks a wish! Ho ho, you so funny. Nice Herrenmensch approach here.

Lamafarmer · 11th September 2010, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

You know, I am begin to suspect that deep down you really don't like Americans very much.

Originally Posted by Pardalis

Ah, the little anti-American bigot finally comes out.

You guys really haven't seen that before? I saw it coming miles ago and I haven't been here nearly as long as you have been.

Originally Posted by ddt

In the same vein, I'm afraid if you asked someone somewhere around the world to name a Dutch politician, the answer would be Geert Wilders and not Mark Rutte or Job Cohen or Maxime Verhagen.

Why do you hate Balkenende, ddt?

Chaos · 11th September 2010, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

It's called freedom of speech, you should try it sometimes.

"Freedom of speech" is when you let them speak. When you keep quiet every time the bigots speak, that is called "implicit consent".

Quote:

Ah, the little anti-American bigot finally comes out.

Not enough still.

I dunno. How much more should we learn? Respecting a bunch of bigots for their bigotry? Respecting hatemongers for their hatred? Respecting ignoramuses for their ignorance? No thanks.

Quote:

Why "western" specifically? Why do you leave out the rest of the world, it doesn't matter to you? Everybody knows the center of Holocaust Denial is Iran but I guess it's normal in their case, right? them not being 'in the West' makes it OK?

"Western" specifically, because comparing yourself favorably to a third world dictatorship is a piss-poor way of asserting moral superiority.

Quote:

The US has a Nazi party now? Where is it?

Maybe you're doing a little projecting ?

See ANTPogo´s post. National Socialism is alive and well in the US, protected by those champions of freedom and democracy like you.

Quote:

Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda are not 'flimsy' excuses. They were very real, ask any Iraqi or Afghan. I guess we won't have to wait for Germany to step in and fight dictatorial regimes.

Saddam was a flimsy excuse. He did not have WMD, he did not provide substantial support for terrorism - far less so than you allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - and your planless and bumbling "liberation" certainly did not make people there better off.

Quote:

At least there is a debate about it, in other countries it's a different story, but I never hear you speak against those.

That a Western democracy has such things at all is bad enough, debate or no debate.

Quote:

The little list of grievances you just ejaculated is absolutely insane. Poor little sour Kraut, did I hurt your little feelings?

That´s precisely why patriots disgust me so much. You don´t give a damn about anything that´s wrong with your country, only about people who think anything might possibly be wrong with your country.

Quote:

You didn't learn the first two times around, maybe a third time will do the trick? I'd be more than happy to help.

So you want to declare war on a country because its citizens do not agree with you? Ever heard of "freedom of speech"?

Serafim Svensson · 11th September 2010, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

And I'll repeat it again for the pervasive ignorance prevalent here: Islam considers the Christian bible a sacred document and not to be treated poorly. Islam considers Jesus a prophet and his words from God/Allah, thus it would be wrong to burn a Christian bible.

Maybe so, but it does happen. I'm not allowed to post URLs yet but try googling "asia news bible burned" for one example.

And if I'm not mistaken, Saudi authorities incinerate confiscated Bibles regularly.

Chaos · 11th September 2010, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

Chaos, what exactly were we supposed to do about it? The only way in which it could be legally obstructed turned out to be the way that people did get it obstructed. But if he's really determined he can find a location where, with the proper permits and insurance, he can carry out this act. And what, in your mind, should we do about that if it comes to that? I propose we do nothing but condemn it and try explain to others why it is wrong. As wrong as the people who let their frivolity of offense get the better of them and opposed the Muslim Community Center two blocks from the WTC.

Did I say that this should be prohibited? If so, please show me where I did.

You say your country is free. You say you have freedom of speech. Then ******* use it!

The people in the Eastern Bloc spoke up against their oppressors, at the risk of being killed. The people in Tienanmen Square in Beijing spoke up, and some of them got killed for it. The people in Ukraine spoke up against their election being stolen, standing outdoors in the infamous Russian Winter for two weeks. The people in Iran spoke up when their election was stolen, and quite few got killed in the process. I could go on and on with this...

You guys, on the other hand, face none of these dangers if you speak up - and still you lazy bums can´t be bothered to open your mouths when somebody pisses on everything your country allegedly stands for!

ddt · 11th September 2010, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by Lamafarmer

Why do you hate Balkenende, ddt?

I just listed the current leaders of the three traditional big parties, and didn't even think of Balkenende. He's old news now: he stepped down as (informal) party leader, resigned his elected seat as MP and only functions in politics as caretaker-PM, for as long as the formation of a new government lasts (94 days and counting...)

commandlinegamer · 11th September 2010, 04:15 AM

I just wonder if this is all an insurance job:

1. Burn some books.

2. Terrorists destroy your church in revenge.

3. Insurance payout - win.

4. Build shiny new place of worship.

Lamafarmer · 11th September 2010, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by Chaos

"Freedom of speech" is when you let them speak. When you keep quiet every time the bigots speak, that is called "implicit consent".

You really shouldn't conflate not giving a **** with your ridiculous charge of consent. Like two days ago, when a fool went into a slight rant about how the Joos control the finance sector. Everyone listening knew he was a fool. There was no need to point out the obvious.

Stacko · 11th September 2010, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

I just wonder if this is all an insurance job:

1. Burn some books.

2. Terrorists destroy your church in revenge.

3. Insurance payout - win.

4. Build shiny new place of worship.

Most standard insurance policies exclude coverage for acts of terrorism.

alfaniner · 11th September 2010, 05:29 AM

All this time he meant to be talking about "Koreans". Go figure...

Praktik · 11th September 2010, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by Chaos

"Western" specifically, because comparing yourself favorably to a third world dictatorship is a piss-poor way of asserting moral superiority.

Ahhh yes - the refreshing taste of reading this is still tingling through my body..

The Painter · 11th September 2010, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

And I'll repeat it again for the pervasive ignorance prevalent here: Islam considers the Christian bible a sacred document and not to be treated poorly. Islam considers Jesus a prophet and his words from God/Allah, thus it would be wrong to burn a Christian bible.

Oh look some DO burn the Bible.

Quote:

Father Musalam additionally told The Jerusalem Post that the Muslim gunmen used rocket-propeled grenades (RPGs) to blow through the doors of the church and school, before burning Bibles and destroying every cross they could get their hands on.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ves.html?cat=9

Quote:

pervasive ignorance

I love the way you look down on people who disagree with you. How the weather up in your Ivory Tower?

Now if I can wrap my ignorant brain around this, the ignorant Christian Pastor is showing restraint and compassion and compromise by not burning the Koran. So now the ball is in the Muslims court. Will they show the same kind of compassion and compromise, or will they be as stubborn as a mule? Will there be any reconciliation? What will the religion of peace do?

Chaos · 11th September 2010, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by Lamafarmer

You really shouldn't conflate not giving a **** with your ridiculous charge of consent. Like two days ago, when a fool went into a slight rant about how the Joos control the finance sector. Everyone listening knew he was a fool. There was no need to point out the obvious.

Then I expect to never again hear anything about moderate muslims not sufficiently protesting the words and actions of extremists - or "liberals" not denouncing terrorism vigorously enough.

Travis · 11th September 2010, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Chaos

Did I say that this should be prohibited? If so, please show me where I did.

You say your country is free. You say you have freedom of speech. Then ******* use it!

The people in the Eastern Bloc spoke up against their oppressors, at the risk of being killed. The people in Tienanmen Square in Beijing spoke up, and some of them got killed for it. The people in Ukraine spoke up against their election being stolen, standing outdoors in the infamous Russian Winter for two weeks. The people in Iran spoke up when their election was stolen, and quite few got killed in the process. I could go on and on with this...

You guys, on the other hand, face none of these dangers if you speak up - and still you lazy bums can´t be bothered to open your mouths when somebody pisses on everything your country allegedly stands for!

WTF are you on about? What has this thread been about but us openly condemning this? Numerous people have spoken out against this all across the country. Beyond that what else can be done?

Chaos · 11th September 2010, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Travis

WTF are you on about? What has this thread been about but us openly condemning this? Numerous people have spoken out against this all across the country. Beyond that what else can be done?

I´m not talking about this thread... I´m talking about the US in general. Nutters of all stripes are screeching 24/7, while decent, sane people (presumably a majority in the US, or so I´m told) can barely be bothered to open their mouths at all. If you people cared half as much about that freedom and tolerance thing as you claimed, you´d have shout these promoters of intolerance whereever they pop up. Instead you let yourself get shouted down - not even Obama can dare stand openly in favor of that Muslim community center, for example.

Still waiting for evidence that I said Koran-burning should be prohibited, by the way.

WildCat · 11th September 2010, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Chaos

I´m not talking about this thread... I´m talking about the US in general. Nutters of all stripes are screeching 24/7, while decent, sane people (presumably a majority in the US, or so I´m told) can barely be bothered to open their mouths at all.

I know, you can hardly find any news on this guy, and no one seems to have an opinion!

GreNME · 11th September 2010, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson

Maybe so, but it does happen. I'm not allowed to post URLs yet but try googling "asia news bible burned" for one example.

Um, okay. Here's the results I got:

Got a better search string?

Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson

And if I'm not mistaken, Saudi authorities incinerate confiscated Bibles regularly.

Can you find a single source that isn't some right-wing Christian article or blog post trying to demonize Islam as a whole? Because I can't. As far as I'm aware the Saudi government takes the same steps to disposing of bibles as they do of korans (yes, there is a process), which is shredding and then incinerating separate from trash and other refuse.

Other supposed examples of Muslims desecrating Christian bibles lead to cases like this in Pakistan where extremists trashed a church and burned a bible, and then "Local Muslims come out in support of the devastated Christians." Or this in South Africa where the plan to burn bibles "was stopped by an Islamic intellectual organisation called Scholars of the Truth that sought a court interdict". Even the South African guy who planned to burn the bibles said "after reading court papers that quoted Quranic verses on the importance of respecting the Bible and the Jewish Torah, he was glad his plans had been blocked." Kinda supports what I'm saying.

You got any more blanks to shoot?

GreNME · 11th September 2010, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by The Painter

Oh look some DO burn the Bible.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ves.html?cat=9

Great example of reading the headline and not reading the article. The article talks about how Hamas commandeered a church and was firing rockets from it, then proceeded to break the icons, the rosaries, and according to the actual person from the church burned prayer books and not bibles. Reading isn't just fun, it's fundamental.

Originally Posted by The Painter

Now if I can wrap my ignorant brain around this, the ignorant Christian Pastor is showing restraint and compassion and compromise by not burning the Koran. So now the ball is in the Muslims court. Will they show the same kind of compassion and compromise, or will they be as stubborn as a mule? Will there be any reconciliation? What will the religion of peace do?

Well, in my previous post I pointed out how an Islamic organization got one nutbar blocked from burning and even showed him the Quran verses discouraging disrespecting the Christian bible and the Jewish Torah.

Keep digging for the confirmation bias. There's a reason pretty much any of the articles you'll find are on Christian dominionist websites, ultra-right-wing fringe sites, or on "alt-news" sites like Associated Content (which allows Truthers to "publish" as well).

Serafim Svensson · 11th September 2010, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

Um, okay. Here's the results I got:

I tried before posting and it worked for me. I didn't put the whole string in quotes though. Maybe you did?

Quote:

As far as I'm aware the Saudi government takes the same steps to disposing of bibles as they do of korans (yes, there is a process), which is shredding and then incinerating separate from trash and other refuse.

Other supposed examples of Muslims desecrating Christian bibles lead to cases like [...] where extremists trashed a church and burned a bible, and then "Local Muslims come out in support of the devastated Christians."

That (which is probably the same event mentioned in the Asia News article) is not a "supposed example", it's an example of Muslims burning a bible. I didn't say that many Muslims do it or that Muslims agree it's a decent thing to do or anything like that.

Quote:

You got any more blanks to shoot?

I may have completely misunderstood but I had the impression you were saying that an Imam burning a Bible is something that would never happen, or that burning Bibles is something that Muslims would never do.

johnny karate · 11th September 2010, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by The Painter

Now if I can wrap my ignorant brain around this, the ignorant Christian Pastor is showing restraint and compassion and compromise by not burning the Koran.

Yeah, there's Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and then this guy. What a noble humanitarian.

Maybe for his next act of restraint and compassion, he'll not burn a cross in the front yard of a black family.

Originally Posted by The Painter

So now the ball is in the Muslims court. Will they show the same kind of compassion and compromise, or will they be as stubborn as a mule? Will there be any reconciliation? What will the religion of peace do?

To which Muslims are you referring? Because your phrasing makes it seem as if you think "Muslim" is some monolithic entity, which I'm sure you don't because that would be an ignorant and bigoted thing to think.

bynmdsue · 11th September 2010, 12:30 PM

Intimidation by proxy.

Quote:

According to officials familiar with the situation, the FBI visited Pastor Terry Jones several times. There is no law against what he wanted to do, they told him, but they were concerned about what might happen to HIM if he went ahead with his Koran Bonfire. They talked to him about being a potential target for violence and threats and told him the story of the Danish cartoonist and other people who have had their lives changed by making this kind of bold statement. They also told him they were concerned that civil rights violations and hate crimes might grow out of what he was planning to do and they wanted him to understand that.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ce-revenge-hit

Suck it.

GreNME · 11th September 2010, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson

I tried before posting and it worked for me. I didn't put the whole string in quotes though. Maybe you did?

Backpedaling? You're the one who supplied the criteria.

Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson

That (which is probably the same event mentioned in the Asia News article) is not a "supposed example", it's an example of Muslims burning a bible. I didn't say that many Muslims do it or that Muslims agree it's a decent thing to do or anything like that.

No, it's an example of a few nutbars and extremists who are actually opposed by the Muslim community in the very articles I displayed. The Muslim community in both Pakistan and South Africa. Those two articles were the only ones I could find that weren't some raging right-wing Christian site or author.

Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson

I may have completely misunderstood but I had the impression you were saying that an Imam burning a Bible is something that would never happen, or that burning Bibles is something that Muslims would never do.

Yeah, you're misunderstanding. Let me be clear: It is doctrinal in Islam to respect the Christian bible and the Jewish Torah as holy. It is actually mentioned in the Quran (one example) that the teachers and books are to be respected.

So, pointing out folks who are ignoring that? Great, and in every case the Muslim community in the area seems to condemn that behavior. So what's the point of these cases that you're trying to make, since the behavior of the Muslim community precisely supports what I've been saying?

johnny karate · 11th September 2010, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Intimidation by proxy.

So your position is that the FBI is threatening people on behalf of Islamic extremists.

What a sad and deranged worldview.

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Suck it.

As succinct and rational an argument I've ever seen you make.

bluskool · 11th September 2010, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

If we ignore witch burning in Africa, abortion terrorism, act of violence in name of jesus (anti gay, anti women) pedophilia among priest, if we also ignore the various stuff made in some small religious cult of christiniaty like forcing young girl to mary men, and we concentrate instead of what the fragging NEWS MEDIA filter out for you, yeah muslim are more violent than christian.

I am aware of all of that and never claimed that Christianity was free of violence. I only said that more violence is being committed in the name of Islam than in the name of Christianity at this point in history. Do you disagree?

Originally Posted by Aepervius

But once you scratch the surface, poor christian are as violent as poor muslim, and rich christian are as bigoted and as misogyn as rich muslim. It can be argued that women place has it worse in muslim country, but on the violence side ? Noper.

Yuper.

Originally Posted by Aepervius

Also I am pretty sure other countries would have a lot to tell about christian attack on their home, however YOU think those attacks were justified (Irak, Afghanistan). In the last 10 years there have been almost certainly much much more muslim killed by christian , howver justified YOU think it is, than christian killed by muslim, even counting the horror of 9/11.

You are quite presumptuous. I certainly do not think the wars you refer to are justified. However, those wars are not being fought in the name of Christianity.

Originally Posted by Aepervius

But singling out the muslim because of the act of a few, whereas at the same time ignoring the same bad stuff in christian religion .... please.... That worst than bias, it is pure blindness.

Straw man. I have not ignored the bad stuff in Christianity.

bluskool · 11th September 2010, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

But there is a biological basis for men to be prone to violence. The reason we don't just simply lock up all men to put an end to violent crime is because as a reasonable society we recognize that not all men are governed by their baser, hormonally-driven instincts.

If you don't think there is a relevant difference between biology and ideology, fine. I do.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

The same goes for Muslims. Of course you can point to passages in the Koran that promote violence. You can do the same with the Bible. But not all Muslims adhere to those particular teachings. Quite a few of them actually disavow them.

Did I say all Muslims do?

Originally Posted by johnny karate

So what, violent, extremist Christians get a pass because they might not commit quite as many acts of terrorism as violent, extremist Muslims?

Right, that's what I said.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Sorry, but in America it's a level playing field. If not all Christians are held responsible for abortion clinic bombings and child-raping priests, then not all Muslims should be held responsible for 9/11. Anything less is hypocrisy and bigotry.

At some point do you plan on responding to what I have said or do you just find it easier to attack a straw man? I do not hold all Muslims responsible for 9/11 or any other acts of terrorism committed in the name of Islam.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

I have no idea what all Muslims believe, nor do I care. In a free society, people can believe whatever they want.

If a practitioner of Islam actually murders someone for apostasy, we punish them within the law. What we don't so is punish someone for what we presume they believe.

Again, when did I say that we should punish people for what they presume to believe? Also, in some countries honor killings and death for apostasy are perfectly legal.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Freedom of religion is protected under the First Amendment. Freedom to practice fraudulent and potentially dangerous pseudo-science is not.

You didn't answer my question.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Nothing like adding qualifiers after the fact to attempt to trap your opponent into a position.

I can set up my thought experiment any way I want. Altering the details is not an unusual. I am certainly not trying to trap you, but only prove a point.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Look, this whole thing started because you misinterpreted an analogy I made between bigotry towards black people and bigotry towards Muslims.

And you repeatedly harping on the notion that being black is different than being Muslim (even though my analogy made no such comparison) implies that you think bigotry towards Muslims is acceptable, or least not as egregious as bigotry towards black people. Your so-called bigotry towards homeopaths example reinforces this implication.

You seem to be looking for justification for bigotry towards Muslims.

Well, you can think whatever you want, no matter how unjustified it is. I certainly do not think bigotry towards Muslims is okay. You are just unaware of what bigotry is.

GreNME · 11th September 2010, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by bluskool

I am aware of all of that and never claimed that Christianity was free of violence. I only said that more violence is being committed in the name of Islam than in the name of Christianity at this point in history.

Where? In the Mid-East? I guess a government enacting a death penalty against homosexuals for religious reasons in a Christian country (Uganda) doesn't count as violence? The Christians and Muslims killing each other in Nigeria doesn't count as Christian violence, right? India? Israel? Let's not forget the domestic Christian violence in the US (including some notable cases).

Another poster recently posted a breakdown of the different terrorist groups in a basic breakdown, and you would be surprised at just how skewed the concept of "Islam does the most terrorism by far" types of accusations that get hawked as if the assumption was a given really are.

johnny karate · 11th September 2010, 07:09 PM

bluskool, you seem to make arguments condoning or excusing bigotry towards Muslims, but then become offended when someone makes that inference.

So what is the point you are trying to make?

bluskool · 11th September 2010, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

Where? In the Mid-East? I guess a government enacting a death penalty against homosexuals for religious reasons in a Christian country (Uganda) doesn't count as violence? The Christians and Muslims killing each other in Nigeria doesn't count as Christian violence, right? India? Israel? Let's not forget the domestic Christian violence in the US (including some notable cases).

Another poster recently posted a breakdown of the different terrorist groups in a basic breakdown, and you would be surprised at just how skewed the concept of "Islam does the most terrorism by far" types of accusations that get hawked as if the assumption was a given really are.

Based on your response you would think that I said no one ever commits violence in the name of Christianity. I didn't.

bluskool · 11th September 2010, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

bluskool, you seem to make arguments condoning or excusing bigotry towards Muslims, but then become offended when someone makes that inference.

So what is the point you are trying to make?

That criticizing an ideology is not bigotry.

Serafim Svensson · 12th September 2010, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by GreNME

You're the one who supplied the criteria.

I did, and I'm sorry I didn't provide better ones. Anyway, when I google those four words (asia news bible burned) without quotes I find the article I was referring to as the first result in the list. It's from December 19 2008 and the headline is "Islamic threats in church: bible burned, appeal to conversion". I should of course have given you the complete headline. I apologize.

Quote:

Let me be clear: It is doctrinal in Islam to respect the Christian bible and the Jewish Torah as holy. It is actually mentioned in the Quran

I am aware of that. I am also aware that the bible burning in Pakistan I referred to was condemned by the Muslim communitiy there. That was also the case when two young Muslims desecrated a Bible in Australia. They were even expelled from the Islamic school they attended. I know this, and I'm not trying to argue that actions like theirs are acceptable in Islam.

Quote:

So, pointing out folks who are ignoring that? Great, and in every case the Muslim community in the area seems to condemn that behavior. So what's the point of these cases that you're trying to make

It seemed to me that you we're saying that one has to be ignorant to even suggest that a Muslim would burn the Bible. A few pages back you wrote this

Originally Posted by GrenME

Apparently no one reads when I explain that Muslims wouldn't burn the Christian bible because they consider it a holy book.

And when you responded to a hypothetical scenario where an Imam burns a Bible, you wrote

Originally Posted by GreNME

And I'll repeat it again for the pervasive ignorance prevalent here: Islam considers the Christian bible a sacred document and not to be treated poorly. Islam considers Jesus a prophet and his words from God/Allah, thus it would be wrong to burn a Christian bible.

It seemed to me you were saying that only ignorance can lead anyone to suggest that a Muslim would burn a Bible. So I thought it appropriate to point out that it has actually happened. But I do apologize if I misread or misunderstood your posts.

GreNME · 12th September 2010, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson

It seemed to me you were saying that only ignorance can lead anyone to suggest that a Muslim would burn a Bible.

Yes, and I've not seen anyone post anything contradicting that. Pointing out exceptions where even the Muslim community condemns the act doesn't contradict what I'm saying. If anything, it confirms what I've been saying. The ignorance is regarding the understanding of Islam, of which there is very little in this forum.

10th September 2010, 05:42 PM	#362
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,323	Originally Posted by Pardalis Has any of them people ever been elected? Germany's contemporary Nazi party has. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...Recent_history Comparing apples with oranges. Germany has proportional representation, which means that smaller parties can get into parliament. The Bundestag currently has six parties. The US has first-past-the-post, which means that the system automatically gravitates towards a two-party system where other parties are marginalized. Could you also provide evidence that the NPD is a neo-Nazi party? The German Constitutional Court would like to hear it. I'm not defending them, I find them abhorrent, but the prima facie evidence against them being Nazis is that they haven't been banned. Originally Posted by Pardalis And if we compare the two countries, Germany has much more influencial Nazi parties and organizations per capita than the US. Evidence?
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10th September 2010, 05:54 PM	#363
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by ddt Could you also provide evidence that the NPD is a neo-Nazi party? Oh come one. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-Germany.html Which 'alive and well' Nazi party did Chaos refer to? Except a few unknown entities I can't seem to find what he is referring to. BTW, isn't his behavior towards Americans bigoted? He is using a few to blame the whole country. In another thread, we are told that this sort of attitude is called "bigoted", but since it's America that is the target of the complaints that makes it OK... Quote: Evidence? Keep in mind Germany is 82 million, and the US 300 million. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Germany
	Last edited by Pardalis; 10th September 2010 at 05:57 PM.

10th September 2010, 06:25 PM	#364
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,323	Originally Posted by Pardalis Oh come one. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...n-Germany.html I see. An article from the Torygraph is more convincing than a case before the Karlsruhe court. Originally Posted by Pardalis Which 'alive and well' Nazi party did Chaos refer to? Except a few unknown entities I can't seem to find what he is referring to. He said he didn't mean a German party. You'd have to ask him. Originally Posted by Pardalis BTW, isn't his behavior towards Americans bigoted? He is using a few to blame the whole country. In another thread, we are told that this sort of attitude is called "bigoted", but since it's America that is the target of the complaints that makes it OK... His first post in this thread was over the top, I'll give you that, but he nuanced his statement in the second. And frankly, I agree with that sentiment. In the same vein, I'm afraid if you asked someone somewhere around the world to name a Dutch politician, the answer would be Geert Wilders and not Mark Rutte or Job Cohen or Maxime Verhagen. Given the sentiments you've been expressing about Germany - not just in this thread but also in other recent threads - I'd say: when you live in a glass house you shouldn't throw stones. Originally Posted by Pardalis Keep in mind Germany is 82 million, and the US 300 million. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Germany That's the number of inhabitants. Now I'm awaiting your evidence for the number of neo-Nazis.
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10th September 2010, 06:29 PM	#365
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,121	Originally Posted by Travis That this entire episode even happened sickens me. That there even needed to be debate over this saddens me. That this kind of thing is still talked about and planned by supposedly "civilized" people makes me wonder if there is any real hope for the Human Species at all. You should feel good about the human race if only one person in America is planning a public burning of the Koran. When you have a few hundred million people there are always some who are (Stupid,Crazy, publicity hungry, trying to raise money, a Big Mac short of a combo, ????) choose one. i am certain this isn't the first Koran burning but it was certainly the most overpublicized.
eeyore1954 Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 4,121

10th September 2010, 09:01 PM	#366
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,944	Chaos, what exactly were we supposed to do about it? The only way in which it could be legally obstructed turned out to be the way that people did get it obstructed. But if he's really determined he can find a location where, with the proper permits and insurance, he can carry out this act. And what, in your mind, should we do about that if it comes to that? I propose we do nothing but condemn it and try explain to others why it is wrong. As wrong as the people who let their frivolity of offense get the better of them and opposed the Muslim Community Center two blocks from the WTC.
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

10th September 2010, 05:17 PM	#361
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,428	Originally Posted by Pardalis Has any of them people ever been elected? Germany's contemporary Nazi party has. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...Recent_history And if we compare the two countries, Germany has much more influencial Nazi parties and organizations per capita than the US. You asked if America had a Nazi party, and where it was. I provided you with that information. You're welcome.

10th September 2010, 10:15 PM	#367
bynmdsue Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,385	I fergot suspicion isn't skepticism. Unless it was an imam threatening to burn a bible and a Republican AG had his goons from the FBI visit him. Then conclusions could be drawn that those wicked men in Washington were chilling Freedom of Expression.

10th September 2010, 10:41 PM	#368
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by bynmdsue I fergot suspicion isn't skepticism. Unless it was an imam threatening to burn a bible and a Republican AG had his goons from the FBI visit him. Then conclusions could be drawn that those wicked men in Washington were chilling Freedom of Expression. And I'll repeat it again for the pervasive ignorance prevalent here: Islam considers the Christian bible a sacred document and not to be treated poorly. Islam considers Jesus a prophet and his words from God/Allah, thus it would be wrong to burn a Christian bible.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

10th September 2010, 10:45 PM	#369
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,828	Originally Posted by bynmdsue I fergot suspicion isn't skepticism. Unless it was an imam threatening to burn a bible and a Republican AG had his goons from the FBI visit him. Then conclusions could be drawn that those wicked men in Washington were chilling Freedom of Expression. Poor, down-trodden Christians. They just can't seem to catch a break in America, can they?
	__________________ Lost your faith in humanity? Click here to have it restored. Or here.

10th September 2010, 11:58 PM	#370
Lamafarmer Banned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 285	Originally Posted by Chaos if you want [...] - wish granted. Granting the lowly Yanks a wish! Ho ho, you so funny. Nice Herrenmensch approach here.

11th September 2010, 12:00 AM	#371
Lamafarmer Banned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 285	Originally Posted by dudalb You know, I am begin to suspect that deep down you really don't like Americans very much. Originally Posted by Pardalis Ah, the little anti-American bigot finally comes out. You guys really haven't seen that before? I saw it coming miles ago and I haven't been here nearly as long as you have been. Originally Posted by ddt In the same vein, I'm afraid if you asked someone somewhere around the world to name a Dutch politician, the answer would be Geert Wilders and not Mark Rutte or Job Cohen or Maxime Verhagen. Why do you hate Balkenende, ddt?
	Last edited by Lamafarmer; 11th September 2010 at 12:02 AM.

11th September 2010, 03:11 AM	#372
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Pardalis It's called freedom of speech, you should try it sometimes. "Freedom of speech" is when you let them speak. When you keep quiet every time the bigots speak, that is called "implicit consent". Quote: Ah, the little anti-American bigot finally comes out. Not enough still. I dunno. How much more should we learn? Respecting a bunch of bigots for their bigotry? Respecting hatemongers for their hatred? Respecting ignoramuses for their ignorance? No thanks. Quote: Why "western" specifically? Why do you leave out the rest of the world, it doesn't matter to you? Everybody knows the center of Holocaust Denial is Iran but I guess it's normal in their case, right? them not being 'in the West' makes it OK? "Western" specifically, because comparing yourself favorably to a third world dictatorship is a piss-poor way of asserting moral superiority. Quote: The US has a Nazi party now? Where is it? Maybe you're doing a little projecting ? See ANTPogo´s post. National Socialism is alive and well in the US, protected by those champions of freedom and democracy like you. Quote: Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda are not 'flimsy' excuses. They were very real, ask any Iraqi or Afghan. I guess we won't have to wait for Germany to step in and fight dictatorial regimes. Saddam was a flimsy excuse. He did not have WMD, he did not provide substantial support for terrorism - far less so than you allies Saudi Arabia and Pakistan - and your planless and bumbling "liberation" certainly did not make people there better off. Quote: At least there is a debate about it, in other countries it's a different story, but I never hear you speak against those. That a Western democracy has such things at all is bad enough, debate or no debate. Quote: The little list of grievances you just ejaculated is absolutely insane. Poor little sour Kraut, did I hurt your little feelings? That´s precisely why patriots disgust me so much. You don´t give a damn about anything that´s wrong with your country, only about people who think anything might possibly be wrong with your country. Quote: You didn't learn the first two times around, maybe a third time will do the trick? I'd be more than happy to help. So you want to declare war on a country because its citizens do not agree with you? Ever heard of "freedom of speech"?
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

11th September 2010, 03:14 AM	#373
Serafim Svensson Scholar Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Stockholm Posts: 50	Originally Posted by GreNME And I'll repeat it again for the pervasive ignorance prevalent here: Islam considers the Christian bible a sacred document and not to be treated poorly. Islam considers Jesus a prophet and his words from God/Allah, thus it would be wrong to burn a Christian bible. Maybe so, but it does happen. I'm not allowed to post URLs yet but try googling "asia news bible burned" for one example. And if I'm not mistaken, Saudi authorities incinerate confiscated Bibles regularly.

11th September 2010, 03:17 AM	#374
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Travis Chaos, what exactly were we supposed to do about it? The only way in which it could be legally obstructed turned out to be the way that people did get it obstructed. But if he's really determined he can find a location where, with the proper permits and insurance, he can carry out this act. And what, in your mind, should we do about that if it comes to that? I propose we do nothing but condemn it and try explain to others why it is wrong. As wrong as the people who let their frivolity of offense get the better of them and opposed the Muslim Community Center two blocks from the WTC. Did I say that this should be prohibited? If so, please show me where I did. You say your country is free. You say you have freedom of speech. Then ******* use it! The people in the Eastern Bloc spoke up against their oppressors, at the risk of being killed. The people in Tienanmen Square in Beijing spoke up, and some of them got killed for it. The people in Ukraine spoke up against their election being stolen, standing outdoors in the infamous Russian Winter for two weeks. The people in Iran spoke up when their election was stolen, and quite few got killed in the process. I could go on and on with this... You guys, on the other hand, face none of these dangers if you speak up - and still you lazy bums can´t be bothered to open your mouths when somebody pisses on everything your country allegedly stands for!
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

11th September 2010, 03:28 AM	#375
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 10,323	Originally Posted by Lamafarmer Why do you hate Balkenende, ddt? I just listed the current leaders of the three traditional big parties, and didn't even think of Balkenende. He's old news now: he stepped down as (informal) party leader, resigned his elected seat as MP and only functions in politics as caretaker-PM, for as long as the formation of a new government lasts (94 days and counting...)
	__________________ Proud member of the Solipsistic Autosycophant's Group

11th September 2010, 04:15 AM	#376
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 5,903	I just wonder if this is all an insurance job: 1. Burn some books. 2. Terrorists destroy your church in revenge. 3. Insurance payout - win. 4. Build shiny new place of worship.
	__________________ He bade me take any rug in the house.

11th September 2010, 04:32 AM	#377
Lamafarmer Banned Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 285	Originally Posted by Chaos "Freedom of speech" is when you let them speak. When you keep quiet every time the bigots speak, that is called "implicit consent". You really shouldn't conflate not giving a **** with your ridiculous charge of consent. Like two days ago, when a fool went into a slight rant about how the Joos control the finance sector. Everyone listening knew he was a fool. There was no need to point out the obvious.

11th September 2010, 05:04 AM	#378
Stacko Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 798	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer I just wonder if this is all an insurance job: 1. Burn some books. 2. Terrorists destroy your church in revenge. 3. Insurance payout - win. 4. Build shiny new place of worship. Most standard insurance policies exclude coverage for acts of terrorism.
Stacko Muse Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 798

11th September 2010, 05:29 AM	#379
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 11,389	All this time he meant to be talking about "Koreans". Go figure...
	__________________ Science doesn't lie.

11th September 2010, 05:52 AM	#380
Praktik Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Tee Dot Posts: 4,252	Originally Posted by Chaos "Western" specifically, because comparing yourself favorably to a third world dictatorship is a piss-poor way of asserting moral superiority. Ahhh yes - the refreshing taste of reading this is still tingling through my body..
	__________________ “ it has become my conviction that things mean pretty much what we want them to mean. We’ll pluck significance from the least consequential happenstance if it suits us and happily ignore the most flagrantly obvious symmetry between separate aspects of our lives if it threatens some cherished prejudice or cosily comforting belief" -Iain Banks

11th September 2010, 06:02 AM	#381
The Painter Banned Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York Posts: 2,656	Originally Posted by GreNME And I'll repeat it again for the pervasive ignorance prevalent here: Islam considers the Christian bible a sacred document and not to be treated poorly. Islam considers Jesus a prophet and his words from God/Allah, thus it would be wrong to burn a Christian bible. Oh look some DO burn the Bible. Quote: Father Musalam additionally told The Jerusalem Post that the Muslim gunmen used rocket-propeled grenades (RPGs) to blow through the doors of the church and school, before burning Bibles and destroying every cross they could get their hands on. http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ves.html?cat=9 Quote: pervasive ignorance I love the way you look down on people who disagree with you. How the weather up in your Ivory Tower? Now if I can wrap my ignorant brain around this, the ignorant Christian Pastor is showing restraint and compassion and compromise by not burning the Koran. So now the ball is in the Muslims court. Will they show the same kind of compassion and compromise, or will they be as stubborn as a mule? Will there be any reconciliation? What will the religion of peace do?

11th September 2010, 06:21 AM	#382
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Lamafarmer You really shouldn't conflate not giving a **** with your ridiculous charge of consent. Like two days ago, when a fool went into a slight rant about how the Joos control the finance sector. Everyone listening knew he was a fool. There was no need to point out the obvious. Then I expect to never again hear anything about moderate muslims not sufficiently protesting the words and actions of extremists - or "liberals" not denouncing terrorism vigorously enough.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

11th September 2010, 08:08 AM	#383
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,944	Originally Posted by Chaos Did I say that this should be prohibited? If so, please show me where I did. You say your country is free. You say you have freedom of speech. Then ******* use it! The people in the Eastern Bloc spoke up against their oppressors, at the risk of being killed. The people in Tienanmen Square in Beijing spoke up, and some of them got killed for it. The people in Ukraine spoke up against their election being stolen, standing outdoors in the infamous Russian Winter for two weeks. The people in Iran spoke up when their election was stolen, and quite few got killed in the process. I could go on and on with this... You guys, on the other hand, face none of these dangers if you speak up - and still you lazy bums can´t be bothered to open your mouths when somebody pisses on everything your country allegedly stands for! WTF are you on about? What has this thread been about but us openly condemning this? Numerous people have spoken out against this all across the country. Beyond that what else can be done?
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

11th September 2010, 08:14 AM	#384
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Travis WTF are you on about? What has this thread been about but us openly condemning this? Numerous people have spoken out against this all across the country. Beyond that what else can be done? I´m not talking about this thread... I´m talking about the US in general. Nutters of all stripes are screeching 24/7, while decent, sane people (presumably a majority in the US, or so I´m told) can barely be bothered to open their mouths at all. If you people cared half as much about that freedom and tolerance thing as you claimed, you´d have shout these promoters of intolerance whereever they pop up. Instead you let yourself get shouted down - not even Obama can dare stand openly in favor of that Muslim community center, for example. Still waiting for evidence that I said Koran-burning should be prohibited, by the way.
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous Last edited by Chaos; 11th September 2010 at 08:20 AM.

11th September 2010, 08:17 AM	#385
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,095	Originally Posted by Chaos I´m not talking about this thread... I´m talking about the US in general. Nutters of all stripes are screeching 24/7, while decent, sane people (presumably a majority in the US, or so I´m told) can barely be bothered to open their mouths at all. I know, you can hardly find any news on this guy, and no one seems to have an opinion!

11th September 2010, 08:19 AM	#386
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson Maybe so, but it does happen. I'm not allowed to post URLs yet but try googling "asia news bible burned" for one example. Um, okay. Here's the results I got: Got a better search string? Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson And if I'm not mistaken, Saudi authorities incinerate confiscated Bibles regularly. Can you find a single source that isn't some right-wing Christian article or blog post trying to demonize Islam as a whole? Because I can't. As far as I'm aware the Saudi government takes the same steps to disposing of bibles as they do of korans (yes, there is a process), which is shredding and then incinerating separate from trash and other refuse. Other supposed examples of Muslims desecrating Christian bibles lead to cases like this in Pakistan where extremists trashed a church and burned a bible, and then "Local Muslims come out in support of the devastated Christians." Or this in South Africa where the plan to burn bibles "was stopped by an Islamic intellectual organisation called Scholars of the Truth that sought a court interdict". Even the South African guy who planned to burn the bibles said "after reading court papers that quoted Quranic verses on the importance of respecting the Bible and the Jewish Torah, he was glad his plans had been blocked." Kinda supports what I'm saying. You got any more blanks to shoot?
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

11th September 2010, 08:26 AM	#387
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by The Painter Oh look some DO burn the Bible. http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ves.html?cat=9 Great example of reading the headline and not reading the article. The article talks about how Hamas commandeered a church and was firing rockets from it, then proceeded to break the icons, the rosaries, and according to the actual person from the church burned prayer books and not bibles. Reading isn't just fun, it's fundamental. Originally Posted by The Painter Now if I can wrap my ignorant brain around this, the ignorant Christian Pastor is showing restraint and compassion and compromise by not burning the Koran. So now the ball is in the Muslims court. Will they show the same kind of compassion and compromise, or will they be as stubborn as a mule? Will there be any reconciliation? What will the religion of peace do? Well, in my previous post I pointed out how an Islamic organization got one nutbar blocked from burning and even showed him the Quran verses discouraging disrespecting the Christian bible and the Jewish Torah. Keep digging for the confirmation bias. There's a reason pretty much any of the articles you'll find are on Christian dominionist websites, ultra-right-wing fringe sites, or on "alt-news" sites like Associated Content (which allows Truthers to "publish" as well).
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

11th September 2010, 09:20 AM	#388
Serafim Svensson Scholar Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Stockholm Posts: 50	Originally Posted by GreNME Um, okay. Here's the results I got: I tried before posting and it worked for me. I didn't put the whole string in quotes though. Maybe you did? Quote: As far as I'm aware the Saudi government takes the same steps to disposing of bibles as they do of korans (yes, there is a process), which is shredding and then incinerating separate from trash and other refuse. Other supposed examples of Muslims desecrating Christian bibles lead to cases like [...] where extremists trashed a church and burned a bible, and then "Local Muslims come out in support of the devastated Christians." That (which is probably the same event mentioned in the Asia News article) is not a "supposed example", it's an example of Muslims burning a bible. I didn't say that many Muslims do it or that Muslims agree it's a decent thing to do or anything like that. Quote: You got any more blanks to shoot? I may have completely misunderstood but I had the impression you were saying that an Imam burning a Bible is something that would never happen, or that burning Bibles is something that Muslims would never do.

11th September 2010, 11:02 AM	#389
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,828	Originally Posted by The Painter Now if I can wrap my ignorant brain around this, the ignorant Christian Pastor is showing restraint and compassion and compromise by not burning the Koran. Yeah, there's Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and then this guy. What a noble humanitarian. Maybe for his next act of restraint and compassion, he'll not burn a cross in the front yard of a black family. Originally Posted by The Painter So now the ball is in the Muslims court. Will they show the same kind of compassion and compromise, or will they be as stubborn as a mule? Will there be any reconciliation? What will the religion of peace do? To which Muslims are you referring? Because your phrasing makes it seem as if you think "Muslim" is some monolithic entity, which I'm sure you don't because that would be an ignorant and bigoted thing to think.
	__________________ Lost your faith in humanity? Click here to have it restored. Or here.

11th September 2010, 12:30 PM	#390
bynmdsue Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,385	Intimidation by proxy. Quote: According to officials familiar with the situation, the FBI visited Pastor Terry Jones several times. There is no law against what he wanted to do, they told him, but they were concerned about what might happen to HIM if he went ahead with his Koran Bonfire. They talked to him about being a potential target for violence and threats and told him the story of the Danish cartoonist and other people who have had their lives changed by making this kind of bold statement. They also told him they were concerned that civil rights violations and hate crimes might grow out of what he was planning to do and they wanted him to understand that. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...ce-revenge-hit Suck it.

11th September 2010, 12:57 PM	#391
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson I tried before posting and it worked for me. I didn't put the whole string in quotes though. Maybe you did? Backpedaling? You're the one who supplied the criteria. Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson That (which is probably the same event mentioned in the Asia News article) is not a "supposed example", it's an example of Muslims burning a bible. I didn't say that many Muslims do it or that Muslims agree it's a decent thing to do or anything like that. No, it's an example of a few nutbars and extremists who are actually opposed by the Muslim community in the very articles I displayed. The Muslim community in both Pakistan and South Africa. Those two articles were the only ones I could find that weren't some raging right-wing Christian site or author. Originally Posted by Serafim Svensson I may have completely misunderstood but I had the impression you were saying that an Imam burning a Bible is something that would never happen, or that burning Bibles is something that Muslims would never do. Yeah, you're misunderstanding. Let me be clear: It is doctrinal in Islam to respect the Christian bible and the Jewish Torah as holy. It is actually mentioned in the Quran (one example) that the teachers and books are to be respected. So, pointing out folks who are ignoring that? Great, and in every case the Muslim community in the area seems to condemn that behavior. So what's the point of these cases that you're trying to make, since the behavior of the Muslim community precisely supports what I've been saying?
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

11th September 2010, 02:40 PM	#392
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,828	Originally Posted by bynmdsue Intimidation by proxy. So your position is that the FBI is threatening people on behalf of Islamic extremists. What a sad and deranged worldview. Originally Posted by bynmdsue Suck it. As succinct and rational an argument I've ever seen you make.
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11th September 2010, 04:04 PM	#393
bluskool Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 362	Originally Posted by Aepervius If we ignore witch burning in Africa, abortion terrorism, act of violence in name of jesus (anti gay, anti women) pedophilia among priest, if we also ignore the various stuff made in some small religious cult of christiniaty like forcing young girl to mary men, and we concentrate instead of what the fragging NEWS MEDIA filter out for you, yeah muslim are more violent than christian. I am aware of all of that and never claimed that Christianity was free of violence. I only said that more violence is being committed in the name of Islam than in the name of Christianity at this point in history. Do you disagree? Originally Posted by Aepervius But once you scratch the surface, poor christian are as violent as poor muslim, and rich christian are as bigoted and as misogyn as rich muslim. It can be argued that women place has it worse in muslim country, but on the violence side ? Noper. Yuper. Originally Posted by Aepervius Also I am pretty sure other countries would have a lot to tell about christian attack on their home, however YOU think those attacks were justified (Irak, Afghanistan). In the last 10 years there have been almost certainly much much more muslim killed by christian , howver justified YOU think it is, than christian killed by muslim, even counting the horror of 9/11. You are quite presumptuous. I certainly do not think the wars you refer to are justified. However, those wars are not being fought in the name of Christianity. Originally Posted by Aepervius But singling out the muslim because of the act of a few, whereas at the same time ignoring the same bad stuff in christian religion .... please.... That worst than bias, it is pure blindness. Straw man. I have not ignored the bad stuff in Christianity.
bluskool Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 362

11th September 2010, 04:51 PM	#394
bluskool Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 362	Originally Posted by johnny karate But there is a biological basis for men to be prone to violence. The reason we don't just simply lock up all men to put an end to violent crime is because as a reasonable society we recognize that not all men are governed by their baser, hormonally-driven instincts. If you don't think there is a relevant difference between biology and ideology, fine. I do. Originally Posted by johnny karate The same goes for Muslims. Of course you can point to passages in the Koran that promote violence. You can do the same with the Bible. But not all Muslims adhere to those particular teachings. Quite a few of them actually disavow them. Did I say all Muslims do? Originally Posted by johnny karate So what, violent, extremist Christians get a pass because they might not commit quite as many acts of terrorism as violent, extremist Muslims? Right, that's what I said. Originally Posted by johnny karate Sorry, but in America it's a level playing field. If not all Christians are held responsible for abortion clinic bombings and child-raping priests, then not all Muslims should be held responsible for 9/11. Anything less is hypocrisy and bigotry. At some point do you plan on responding to what I have said or do you just find it easier to attack a straw man? I do not hold all Muslims responsible for 9/11 or any other acts of terrorism committed in the name of Islam. Originally Posted by johnny karate I have no idea what all Muslims believe, nor do I care. In a free society, people can believe whatever they want. If a practitioner of Islam actually murders someone for apostasy, we punish them within the law. What we don't so is punish someone for what we presume they believe. Again, when did I say that we should punish people for what they presume to believe? Also, in some countries honor killings and death for apostasy are perfectly legal. Originally Posted by johnny karate Freedom of religion is protected under the First Amendment. Freedom to practice fraudulent and potentially dangerous pseudo-science is not. You didn't answer my question. Originally Posted by johnny karate Nothing like adding qualifiers after the fact to attempt to trap your opponent into a position. I can set up my thought experiment any way I want. Altering the details is not an unusual. I am certainly not trying to trap you, but only prove a point. Originally Posted by johnny karate Look, this whole thing started because you misinterpreted an analogy I made between bigotry towards black people and bigotry towards Muslims. And you repeatedly harping on the notion that being black is different than being Muslim (even though my analogy made no such comparison) implies that you think bigotry towards Muslims is acceptable, or least not as egregious as bigotry towards black people. Your so-called bigotry towards homeopaths example reinforces this implication. You seem to be looking for justification for bigotry towards Muslims. Well, you can think whatever you want, no matter how unjustified it is. I certainly do not think bigotry towards Muslims is okay. You are just unaware of what bigotry is.
bluskool Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 362

11th September 2010, 05:54 PM	#395
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by bluskool I am aware of all of that and never claimed that Christianity was free of violence. I only said that more violence is being committed in the name of Islam than in the name of Christianity at this point in history. Where? In the Mid-East? I guess a government enacting a death penalty against homosexuals for religious reasons in a Christian country (Uganda) doesn't count as violence? The Christians and Muslims killing each other in Nigeria doesn't count as Christian violence, right? India? Israel? Let's not forget the domestic Christian violence in the US (including some notable cases). Another poster recently posted a breakdown of the different terrorist groups in a basic breakdown, and you would be surprised at just how skewed the concept of "Islam does the most terrorism by far" types of accusations that get hawked as if the assumption was a given really are.
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