Florida Church to burn the Koran in memory of 9-11 - Page 7

johnny karate · 8th September 2010, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by bluskool

I am not exonerating terrorists. Of course they deserve blame. The point is that what they did is justified and encouraged by the teachings of their religion. It's really not difficult to see how one could criticize/blame a belief system for its fruits. Perhaps you would care to explain why you think one can't.

Because not all Muslims hold the same beliefs. Some of them actually disavow the acts of Islamic terrorists. This might lead one to the conclusion that their belief system is open to interpretation.

Abortion clinic bombings are justified by the teachings of Christianity. Do you hold all Christians responsible for the actions of a few extremists?

Originally Posted by bluskool

I don't really care about Park 51. I only said that your comparison was ridiculous.

No, it's your misapprehension of my comparison that's ridiculous. I wasn't comparing Muslims to black people; I was comparing one form of bigotry to another.

johnny karate · 8th September 2010, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Great. A moderator and administrator who doesn't read world news. Or, from evidence presented in his past posts, can't read.period

I surrender. I am a *********** bigot. There is no middle ground-you people are right, and anyone who disagrees is stupid, gun-toting redneck idiots.

duh...

Was I the only one who heard a sad violin playing while reading this post?

bluskool · 8th September 2010, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

So the Muslim world is still rioting on a recurring basis and greater problems from the cartoon are still simmering?

In the context of the discussion, I was referring to that of rioting and risk of violent upheaval.

Fair enough. I was just pointing out that the risk of violence is still very real to the cartoonists.

bluskool · 8th September 2010, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Because not all Muslims hold the same beliefs. Some of them actually disavow the acts of Islamic terrorists. This might lead one to the conclusion that their belief system is open too interpretation.

Abortion clinic bombings are justified by the teachings of Christianity. Do you hold all Christians responsible for the actions of a few extremists?

No, but I do hold Christian beliefs responsible.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

No, it's your misapprehension of my comparison that's ridiculous. I wasn't comparing Muslims to black people; I was comparing one form of bigotry to another.

And your comparison was ridiculous for the reason I already pointed out.

johnny karate · 8th September 2010, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by bluskool

No, but I do hold Christian beliefs responsible.

Fair enough. You've already stated your apathy regarding Park51, so I'll assume you're not a raging hypocrite who believes American Muslims shouldn't have the same rights as everybody else.

Originally Posted by bluskool

And your comparison was ridiculous for the reason I already pointed out.

Except that your reason was based on a misunderstanding of my analogy, so no, it's not ridiculous.

tsig · 8th September 2010, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Too bad for the Dove Church that the Koran is the holy book for all of Islam. If they wanted to protest Sharia law and not be labeled bigots, they probably should have picked a method of protest not quite so bone-headed.

And using that same logic, I refer you to the analogy I made earlier:

Of course the black people in my analogy claim they won't commit any crimes against me while living next door, and I've made it perfectly clear that my actions were not motivated by bigotry - I'm merely protesting violent black gang members, not all black people.

How would we ever be able to tell who's telling the truth?

Tell me about it.

Remember after the Rodney King verdict when all those black people rioted in Los Angeles? I didn't see any white people rioting after O.J. was freed.

Blacks aren't prone to crime, my ass.

Would there be any way to protest Islam that you wouldn't label bigotry?

BTW Islam is a religion not a race

tsig · 8th September 2010, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by GreNME

More hiding behind the dead. Pathetic.

It's not about fear of anything. It's about selkf-righteous chickenhawks picking wars and battles with brown folks (and brown-folk-religions) while sending others off to do their fighting for them. If Pastor Jones was so keen on making a statement, let his cowardly ass go over there and make his "statement" where he should be.

There is no reason why I have to find hate speech acceptable, particularly the kind of hate speech that keeps wars going.

I didn't know that Islam was a brown-folk-religion.

Thunder · 8th September 2010, 04:56 PM

if the guy wants to stick it to Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Muslim Brotherhood...why doesn't he burn photos of Osama bin Laden?

burn a photo of the head of Hezbollah?

burn a photo of the head of the Muslim Brotherhood?

no...he instead will burn the Koran, cause he associates ALL Muslims witrh radical terrorists.

tsig · 8th September 2010, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

To whom is a Muslim community center two blocks away from Ground Zero "insensitive and in very bad taste", and why?

Your inability to articulate an answer to the above question is probably why. If you could provide a non-bigoted, rational explanation why Park51 is insensitive and in very bad taste, I'm sure the accusations would stop.

But of course you won't provide an explanation, will you? It's so much easier to refuse to answer a simple question and then become indignant when people draw their own conclusions.

This intellectually dishonest game being played in which people who oppose Park51 pretend that the construction of a Muslim community center is the moral equivalent of burning the Koran hasn't become tiresome at all.

As a matter of fact, for all you kids out there who want to join in and oppose Park51 too, here's an easy-to-follow guide:

Step 1: Proclaim your opposition to Park51. Be vague in your reasons, using words like "insensitive" and "bad taste". Try and mention the victims of 9/11.

Step 2: Avoid at all costs answering specific questions regarding your opposition to Park51. If you are accused of bigotry or intolerance, go on the offensive and feign indignation.

Step 3: Muddy the waters as much as possible. Bring up your First Amendment rights, point out instances of Islamic extremism, equate Park51 with examples of actual bigotry and hatred, and of course, be sure and mention the victims of 9/11. Basically, try and make the conversation about anything other than the specific reasons you oppose Park51.

Step 4: Rinse and repeat.

To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime.

Taarkin · 8th September 2010, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime.

Good thing Park51 is not a part of the organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago!

ANTPogo · 8th September 2010, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Taarkin

Good thing Park51 is not a part of the organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago!

And that the "organization" whose members killed many people ten years ago also killed a lot of members of the same group that the Park51 people do belong to.

Emet · 8th September 2010, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime.

How far away would suffice?

5 blocks?
10 blocks?
Another borough?
Another state?
Another country?

Pauliesonne · 8th September 2010, 06:22 PM

No time to read whole thread but I just needed to get off my chest how selfish, stupid and idiotic this bigot is.

Emet · 8th September 2010, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Pauliesonne

No time to read whole thread but I just needed to get off my chest how selfish, stupid and idiotic this bigot is.

And he's armed:

Quote:

A former hotel manager, Jones, who worked as a missionary in Europe for 30 years, took over as head of the Dove World Outreach Center, a fundamentalist Christian church in Gainesville, Fla., in 1996.

He is often seen on the church's 20-acre compound with a pistol strapped to his hip.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/terry-jones...1575665&page=1

alfaniner · 8th September 2010, 06:35 PM

I have to wonder if the gubmint could step in at some point, declaring it a threat to national security or some such.

BenBurch · 8th September 2010, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Emet

How far away would suffice?

5 blocks?
10 blocks?
Another borough?
Another state?
Another country?

Third star on the left and on 'til morning.

tsig · 8th September 2010, 06:42 PM

Is it possible to criticize Islam and not be a bigot?

johnny karate · 8th September 2010, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

Would there be any way to protest Islam that you wouldn't label bigotry?

Of course. But burning a Koran and proclaiming "Islam is the Evil" probably isn't it. Rational people tend to make reasoned, thoughtful arguments; bigots tend to spew inarticulate anger.

Originally Posted by tsig

BTW Islam is a religion not a race

You seem to share in bluskool's confusion. I wasn't making a comparison between Muslims and black people; I was making a comparison between two forms of bigotry.

Holding all Muslims responsible for the actions of a few is the same as holding all black people responsible for the actions of a few. In both cases, you are demonstrating a prejudice.

ETA: As a matter of fact, here's an excellent example of what I'm talking about:

Originally Posted by tsig

To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime.

Pardalis · 8th September 2010, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Also, I will burn my 2 useless Bibles since no one over here cares about that anyway ...

Go ahead, Bibles have been burned before without any controversy. Your act of protest will go unnoticed.

johnny karate · 8th September 2010, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime.

So 1.5 billion people are held responsible for the actions of 19 by the mere fact that they are all Muslim?

How far do we take this logic?

All the 9/11 hijackers we're male. Should we not allow men near Ground Zero for fear of being insensitive? All the 9/11 hijackers were human. Should people not be allowed near Ground Zero? Perhaps everything within a 2 block radius should be turned into an animal preserve.

johnny karate · 8th September 2010, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

Is it possible to criticize Islam and not be a bigot?

Of course.

Do you think burning the Koran and proclaiming "Islam is the Devil" is a reasonable way to criticize Islam?

GreNME · 8th September 2010, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

I didn't know that Islam was a brown-folk-religion.

Oh please. Islam is considered by most in America to be predominately Arab, with the only other large memorable Islamic contingent in general public knowledge is the NoI nutbars. Of course that attitude is inaccurate, but it's precisely the type of attitude that has a fifth of Americans believing the president is a Muslim.

-----

Originally Posted by rwguinn

Objecting to the book burning is blaming all the US (and all Christians) for the actions of a few.
Note the widespread condemnation of this church by EVERYONE, including Christians, in the US and abroad.
Where was the equivalent Muslim condemnation for 9/11? They were dancing in the streets in those countries.
Keep the "moral equivalence" ******** coming, you terrorist apologists...

Um, you're the one claiming moral equivalence between a patriotic American who has helped the country oppose terrorism and a racist, bigoted attention whore whose own actions (at this "church" in publication) have proven him to be openly hostile toward Muslims as a whole. So far, you've been the only one hiding behind the dead as apologetics for your moral equivalency arguments.

Where was the Muslim condemnation for 9/11? Are you serious? Does that old lie seriously not get old for you? America even saw support from Iranians for cryin out loud, and you're going to bust out the old canard about "where was Muslim outrage?" as if there were none? You're scraping the bottom of the barrel now, rwguinn.

-----

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Burning the Koran, rather pointless, unless he's doing it in Mecca.

Skeptic Ginger · 8th September 2010, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

Would there be any way to protest Islam that you wouldn't label bigotry?...

Yes, if you appropriately protest the specific aspect you had an issue with. The reason the Park51 protest is bigotry, not a single person could cite a reason it should be offensive to anyone regardless of 9/11 unless you paint all Muslims and all mosques or Islamic centers with the 9/11 brush.

The parents of a Muslim EMT who was killed trying to rescue people at the WTC have had to go through having their dead hero son accused of really having been in on the terror event. It is pure bigotry. They are still receiving hate mail directed at their hero son. The Imam in the Park51 campaigns against terrorism and has since 9/11. It is bigotry to accuse him and his Islamic center of being insensitive.

Fnord · 8th September 2010, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer

A counter protest takes place and a riot ensues when the preacher begins burning books.

Like the protests that ensued after the beating of Rodney King by Los Angeles Police officers.

Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer

I am not talking about criminal liability, but civil liability.

No one brought a civil suit against Rodney King for "causing" the L.A. riots, so there is no reason to expect that the church will bear any civil liability, either.

Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer

If someone gets killed as a direct result of a protest to this clowns actions, which he could have reasonably foreseen happening, is he liable?

No. The person doing the killing is liable. The police could be held liable for failing to protect the deceased. The "clown" you mentioned could be held liable only if the murder happened on church grounds and/or if the murderer acted under the "clown's" authority. Two blocks away? Not a chance.

Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer

Since the book burning is taking place on church property, I can well see that the insurance company being quite nervous.

I don't blame them. I hope they have plenty of fire extinguishers and people trained to use them.

Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer

It appears that they have already told Jones that he will not be covered for any claims against him and his church.

The he'd better burn those books outside and downwind of the church building, eh?

They're only books. Let them burn.

Kopji · 8th September 2010, 09:45 PM

10 years on, the religious extremists still hold the keys and are in the driver seat of the world. Tragic for the rest of us.

kerikiwi · 8th September 2010, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime.

Oh, ffs. It is not the same organisation.Why is that so hard for you to understand.
I repeat, IT IS NOT THE SAME ORGANISATION.

Aepervius · 8th September 2010, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by bluskool

No, but I do hold Christian beliefs responsible.

And your comparison was ridiculous for the reason I already pointed out.

The reason your position don't hold very well, is that those "christian belief" var extremly among the various sect which compose christianity.

You can't really compare mormonism, baptist, catholic, protestant, orthodox church and people holding those belief.
Sometimes it feel they are fully *DIFFERENT* religions.
Same for Islam really.

What you are doing is that you are holding a WHOLE set of religion responsible for the INTERPRETATION of some holy text by some.

And that, is really what make no sense. About as much sense, as , say , condemning all women if one make you ckuckhold, or condemining all men if one rape you. And condemining all kid if one throw a stone at a window. Condemining all atheist because one decided to kill all pastor he saw.

The fact that you are doing it on a philosophy/religion basis (condeming all islam or christianity for the act of a few of those) don't hold water.

Aepervius · 8th September 2010, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

Would there be any way to protest Islam that you wouldn't label bigotry?

BTW Islam is a religion not a race

I am not sure why one would protest Islam, especially respectively to terrorism, as it is quite clear that it is not the will of the whole islam to do terrorist attacks. I don't see much protest against "christiniaty" in any country for example, even when they bomb abortion clinics. People in such case quite clearly only blame the bombers and the one supporting the bombers, and rightfully so.

But if you really want to know, how about the *USUAL* form of protest ? Take some white paper or carton sheet. Write your message on it. Attach it to a wooden post with two light wood stuff horizontal to make it hold. Then wqalk in the street. Make sure on the sign you write what sort of action you think is a no-no. So that people knows how they can change.

I dunno for the US but this is usually the form of protest we use around here.

Book burning clearly send a wquite different type of message. The message is "we can't *EVER* be your friends because we *HATE* your religious belief, and we **** on your holy book". That is way different from protesting a religion (which is already way larger than protesting the act of a few idiot). It is attacking a religion. And fully an emotional only reaction. A gut anger. Hate.

Mind you, it might be what you want, attack a religion, and make sure that people holding that religion are fully unwelcome, NO MATTER HOW CIVIL AND SOCIAL THEY ARE. Which is kind of a strange message to send to the few % of the american population : "you are ****head because your religion is **** and we tell you that because some idiot from middle east did the 9/11 and it does not matter if you lost people in the 9/11 attack ****heads".

Aepervius · 8th September 2010, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime.

We should close all the church within 600 feet of any abortion clinic bombing, or where any pedophilia act by priests happened over children (and all associated church within 600 feet).

It is after all insensitive for the victim to let those church open.

(blaming a whole religion for the act of a few is bigotery).

Aepervius · 8th September 2010, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I have to wonder if the gubmint could step in at some point, declaring it a threat to national security or some such.

I hope not. That would be a breach of the 1st amendement.

kerikiwi · 8th September 2010, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

We should close all the church within 600 feet of any abortion clinic bombing, or where any pedophilia act by priests happened over children (and all associated church within 600 feet).

It is after all insensitive for the victim to let those church open.

(blaming a whole religion for the act of a few is bigotery).

Which amendment would this be a breach of?

Puppycow · 8th September 2010, 11:20 PM

Bloomberg Defends Florida Pastor's Right to Hold Quran Burning Rally

Palin calls it 'unnecessary provocation'

Actually, both Palin and Bloomberg said the same exact thing, with slightly different emphasis, but the headlines are quite different. They both said that the first amendment gives them the right to do it, but that it's not a good idea to do it.

rkzenrage · 8th September 2010, 11:22 PM

I just don't get this, many Muslims died in the towers. It does not make any sense.

kerikiwi · 9th September 2010, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I just don't get this, many Muslims died in the towers. It does not make any sense.

Well of course it doesn't.
And we have people saying the book burning is insensitive, in the same way as the building of the 'victory mosque' is insensitive.
Truly bizarre reasoning.

bozman · 9th September 2010, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I just don't get this, many Muslims died in the towers. It does not make any sense.

Not making sense is almost like Standard Operating Procedure for fundamentalist Christians. At least they're consistent about it.

quadraginta · 9th September 2010, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by tsig

Is it possible to criticize Islam and not be a bigot?

Sure.

Okay. Now here's the follow-up question.

Is it possible to criticize everyone who considers themselves Muslim solely on the basis of the actions of a tiny few who also call themselves Muslim ... and not be a bigot?

Virus · 9th September 2010, 01:31 AM

I don't agree with burning any book. But if it's their Koran they can do whatever they want with it. They can buy a box of Korans and keep them in the toilet as bog roll if they want.

Oliver · 9th September 2010, 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Bell

According to Dutch news site RTL Nieuws Geert Wilders is AGAINST the burning of the Qur'an.

http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuws/binnenland/)/components/actueel/rtlnieuws/2010/09_september/08/binnenland/wilders-tegen-koranverbranding-vs.xml

Thanks for the info, Bell. I also found another report about Wilders stance concerning the matter:

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/7...g__.html?p=4,2

alfaniner · 9th September 2010, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

I hope not. That would be a breach of the 1st amendement.

That's what I meant. "They" could probably find a way around it, and probably would if it wasn't such a high profile case.

excaza · 9th September 2010, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by bozman

Not making sense is almost like Standard Operating Procedure for fundamentalists ~~Christians~~. At least they're consistent about it.

ftfy

8th September 2010, 03:32 PM	#241
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,827	Originally Posted by bluskool I am not exonerating terrorists. Of course they deserve blame. The point is that what they did is justified and encouraged by the teachings of their religion. It's really not difficult to see how one could criticize/blame a belief system for its fruits. Perhaps you would care to explain why you think one can't. Because not all Muslims hold the same beliefs. Some of them actually disavow the acts of Islamic terrorists. This might lead one to the conclusion that their belief system is open to interpretation. Abortion clinic bombings are justified by the teachings of Christianity. Do you hold all Christians responsible for the actions of a few extremists? Originally Posted by bluskool I don't really care about Park 51. I only said that your comparison was ridiculous. No, it's your misapprehension of my comparison that's ridiculous. I wasn't comparing Muslims to black people; I was comparing one form of bigotry to another.
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8th September 2010, 03:33 PM	#242
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,827	Originally Posted by rwguinn Great. A moderator and administrator who doesn't read world news. Or, from evidence presented in his past posts, can't read.period I surrender. I am a *********** bigot. There is no middle ground-you people are right, and anyone who disagrees is stupid, gun-toting redneck idiots. duh... Was I the only one who heard a sad violin playing while reading this post?
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8th September 2010, 03:39 PM	#243
bluskool Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 362	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger So the Muslim world is still rioting on a recurring basis and greater problems from the cartoon are still simmering? In the context of the discussion, I was referring to that of rioting and risk of violent upheaval. Fair enough. I was just pointing out that the risk of violence is still very real to the cartoonists.
bluskool Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 362

8th September 2010, 03:50 PM	#244
bluskool Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 362	Originally Posted by johnny karate Because not all Muslims hold the same beliefs. Some of them actually disavow the acts of Islamic terrorists. This might lead one to the conclusion that their belief system is open too interpretation. Abortion clinic bombings are justified by the teachings of Christianity. Do you hold all Christians responsible for the actions of a few extremists? No, but I do hold Christian beliefs responsible. Originally Posted by johnny karate No, it's your misapprehension of my comparison that's ridiculous. I wasn't comparing Muslims to black people; I was comparing one form of bigotry to another. And your comparison was ridiculous for the reason I already pointed out.
bluskool Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 362

8th September 2010, 03:55 PM	#245
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,827	Originally Posted by bluskool No, but I do hold Christian beliefs responsible. Fair enough. You've already stated your apathy regarding Park51, so I'll assume you're not a raging hypocrite who believes American Muslims shouldn't have the same rights as everybody else. Originally Posted by bluskool And your comparison was ridiculous for the reason I already pointed out. Except that your reason was based on a misunderstanding of my analogy, so no, it's not ridiculous.
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8th September 2010, 04:51 PM	#246
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,776	Originally Posted by johnny karate Too bad for the Dove Church that the Koran is the holy book for all of Islam. If they wanted to protest Sharia law and not be labeled bigots, they probably should have picked a method of protest not quite so bone-headed. And using that same logic, I refer you to the analogy I made earlier: Of course the black people in my analogy claim they won't commit any crimes against me while living next door, and I've made it perfectly clear that my actions were not motivated by bigotry - I'm merely protesting violent black gang members, not all black people. How would we ever be able to tell who's telling the truth? Tell me about it. Remember after the Rodney King verdict when all those black people rioted in Los Angeles? I didn't see any white people rioting after O.J. was freed. Blacks aren't prone to crime, my ass. Would there be any way to protest Islam that you wouldn't label bigotry? BTW Islam is a religion not a race

8th September 2010, 04:56 PM	#247
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,776	Originally Posted by GreNME More hiding behind the dead. Pathetic. It's not about fear of anything. It's about selkf-righteous chickenhawks picking wars and battles with brown folks (and brown-folk-religions) while sending others off to do their fighting for them. If Pastor Jones was so keen on making a statement, let his cowardly ass go over there and make his "statement" where he should be. There is no reason why I have to find hate speech acceptable, particularly the kind of hate speech that keeps wars going. I didn't know that Islam was a brown-folk-religion.

8th September 2010, 04:56 PM	#248
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	if the guy wants to stick it to Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Muslim Brotherhood...why doesn't he burn photos of Osama bin Laden? burn a photo of the head of Hezbollah? burn a photo of the head of the Muslim Brotherhood? no...he instead will burn the Koran, cause he associates ALL Muslims witrh radical terrorists.

8th September 2010, 05:11 PM	#249
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,776	Originally Posted by johnny karate To whom is a Muslim community center two blocks away from Ground Zero "insensitive and in very bad taste", and why? Your inability to articulate an answer to the above question is probably why. If you could provide a non-bigoted, rational explanation why Park51 is insensitive and in very bad taste, I'm sure the accusations would stop. But of course you won't provide an explanation, will you? It's so much easier to refuse to answer a simple question and then become indignant when people draw their own conclusions. This intellectually dishonest game being played in which people who oppose Park51 pretend that the construction of a Muslim community center is the moral equivalent of burning the Koran hasn't become tiresome at all. As a matter of fact, for all you kids out there who want to join in and oppose Park51 too, here's an easy-to-follow guide: Step 1: Proclaim your opposition to Park51. Be vague in your reasons, using words like "insensitive" and "bad taste". Try and mention the victims of 9/11. Step 2: Avoid at all costs answering specific questions regarding your opposition to Park51. If you are accused of bigotry or intolerance, go on the offensive and feign indignation. Step 3: Muddy the waters as much as possible. Bring up your First Amendment rights, point out instances of Islamic extremism, equate Park51 with examples of actual bigotry and hatred, and of course, be sure and mention the victims of 9/11. Basically, try and make the conversation about anything other than the specific reasons you oppose Park51. Step 4: Rinse and repeat. To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime.

8th September 2010, 05:31 PM	#250
Taarkin Strider Style Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of Heat and Clockwork Posts: 1,221	Originally Posted by tsig To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime. Good thing Park51 is not a part of the organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago!

8th September 2010, 06:05 PM	#251
ANTPogo Unique Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 9,408	Originally Posted by Taarkin Good thing Park51 is not a part of the organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago! And that the "organization" whose members killed many people ten years ago also killed a lot of members of the same group that the Park51 people do belong to.

8th September 2010, 06:08 PM	#252
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395	Originally Posted by tsig To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime. How far away would suffice? 5 blocks? 10 blocks? Another borough? Another state? Another country?
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395

8th September 2010, 06:22 PM	#253
Pauliesonne Bi Gi Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: A small town in Northern Ireland called Limavady. Posts: 2,691	No time to read whole thread but I just needed to get off my chest how selfish, stupid and idiotic this bigot is.
	__________________ You gotta give 'em hope - Harvey Milk

8th September 2010, 06:32 PM	#254
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395	Originally Posted by Pauliesonne No time to read whole thread but I just needed to get off my chest how selfish, stupid and idiotic this bigot is. And he's armed: Quote: A former hotel manager, Jones, who worked as a missionary in Europe for 30 years, took over as head of the Dove World Outreach Center, a fundamentalist Christian church in Gainesville, Fla., in 1996. He is often seen on the church's 20-acre compound with a pistol strapped to his hip. http://abcnews.go.com/US/terry-jones...1575665&page=1
Emet Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,395

8th September 2010, 06:35 PM	#255
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 11,387	I have to wonder if the gubmint could step in at some point, declaring it a threat to national security or some such.
	__________________ Science doesn't lie.

8th September 2010, 06:39 PM	#256
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 32,178	Originally Posted by Emet How far away would suffice? 5 blocks? 10 blocks? Another borough? Another state? Another country? Third star on the left and on 'til morning.
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8th September 2010, 06:42 PM	#257
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,776	Is it possible to criticize Islam and not be a bigot?

8th September 2010, 07:11 PM	#258
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,827	Originally Posted by tsig Would there be any way to protest Islam that you wouldn't label bigotry? Of course. But burning a Koran and proclaiming "Islam is the Evil" probably isn't it. Rational people tend to make reasoned, thoughtful arguments; bigots tend to spew inarticulate anger. Originally Posted by tsig BTW Islam is a religion not a race You seem to share in bluskool's confusion. I wasn't making a comparison between Muslims and black people; I was making a comparison between two forms of bigotry. Holding all Muslims responsible for the actions of a few is the same as holding all black people responsible for the actions of a few. In both cases, you are demonstrating a prejudice. ETA: As a matter of fact, here's an excellent example of what I'm talking about: Originally Posted by tsig To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime.
	__________________ Lost your faith in humanity? Click here to have it restored. Or here. Last edited by johnny karate; 8th September 2010 at 07:13 PM.

8th September 2010, 07:16 PM	#259
Pardalis Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 25,831	Originally Posted by Oliver Also, I will burn my 2 useless Bibles since no one over here cares about that anyway ... Go ahead, Bibles have been burned before without any controversy. Your act of protest will go unnoticed.
	Last edited by Pardalis; 8th September 2010 at 07:19 PM.

8th September 2010, 07:18 PM	#260
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,827	Originally Posted by tsig To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime. So 1.5 billion people are held responsible for the actions of 19 by the mere fact that they are all Muslim? How far do we take this logic? All the 9/11 hijackers we're male. Should we not allow men near Ground Zero for fear of being insensitive? All the 9/11 hijackers were human. Should people not be allowed near Ground Zero? Perhaps everything within a 2 block radius should be turned into an animal preserve.
	__________________ Lost your faith in humanity? Click here to have it restored. Or here.

8th September 2010, 07:20 PM	#261
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,827	Originally Posted by tsig Is it possible to criticize Islam and not be a bigot? Of course. Do you think burning the Koran and proclaiming "Islam is the Devil" is a reasonable way to criticize Islam?
	__________________ Lost your faith in humanity? Click here to have it restored. Or here.

8th September 2010, 07:39 PM	#262
GreNME Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 8,283	Originally Posted by tsig I didn't know that Islam was a brown-folk-religion. Oh please. Islam is considered by most in America to be predominately Arab, with the only other large memorable Islamic contingent in general public knowledge is the NoI nutbars. Of course that attitude is inaccurate, but it's precisely the type of attitude that has a fifth of Americans believing the president is a Muslim. ----- Originally Posted by rwguinn Objecting to the book burning is blaming all the US (and all Christians) for the actions of a few. Note the widespread condemnation of this church by EVERYONE, including Christians, in the US and abroad. Where was the equivalent Muslim condemnation for 9/11? They were dancing in the streets in those countries. Keep the "moral equivalence" ******** coming, you terrorist apologists... Um, you're the one claiming moral equivalence between a patriotic American who has helped the country oppose terrorism and a racist, bigoted attention whore whose own actions (at this "church" in publication) have proven him to be openly hostile toward Muslims as a whole. So far, you've been the only one hiding behind the dead as apologetics for your moral equivalency arguments. Where was the Muslim condemnation for 9/11? Are you serious? Does that old lie seriously not get old for you? America even saw support from Iranians for cryin out loud, and you're going to bust out the old canard about "where was Muslim outrage?" as if there were none? You're scraping the bottom of the barrel now, rwguinn. ----- Originally Posted by Darth Rotor Burning the Koran, rather pointless, unless he's doing it in Mecca.
	__________________ _{Like love, criminals will always find a way. -- foxholeatheist The kind of pacifism I endorse is brought about by eliminating one enemy combatant at a time.-- JoeyDonuts}

8th September 2010, 08:25 PM	#263
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,587	Originally Posted by tsig Would there be any way to protest Islam that you wouldn't label bigotry?... Yes, if you appropriately protest the specific aspect you had an issue with. The reason the Park51 protest is bigotry, not a single person could cite a reason it should be offensive to anyone regardless of 9/11 unless you paint all Muslims and all mosques or Islamic centers with the 9/11 brush. The parents of a Muslim EMT who was killed trying to rescue people at the WTC have had to go through having their dead hero son accused of really having been in on the terror event. It is pure bigotry. They are still receiving hate mail directed at their hero son. The Imam in the Park51 campaigns against terrorism and has since 9/11. It is bigotry to accuse him and his Islamic center of being insensitive.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

8th September 2010, 09:21 PM	#264
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer A counter protest takes place and a riot ensues when the preacher begins burning books. Like the protests that ensued after the beating of Rodney King by Los Angeles Police officers. Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer I am not talking about criminal liability, but civil liability. No one brought a civil suit against Rodney King for "causing" the L.A. riots, so there is no reason to expect that the church will bear any civil liability, either. Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer If someone gets killed as a direct result of a protest to this clowns actions, which he could have reasonably foreseen happening, is he liable? No. The person doing the killing is liable. The police could be held liable for failing to protect the deceased. The "clown" you mentioned could be held liable only if the murder happened on church grounds and/or if the murderer acted under the "clown's" authority. Two blocks away? Not a chance. Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer Since the book burning is taking place on church property, I can well see that the insurance company being quite nervous. I don't blame them. I hope they have plenty of fire extinguishers and people trained to use them. Originally Posted by Alferd_Packer It appears that they have already told Jones that he will not be covered for any claims against him and his church. The he'd better burn those books outside and downwind of the church building, eh? They're only books. Let them burn.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

8th September 2010, 09:45 PM	#265
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	10 years on, the religious extremists still hold the keys and are in the driver seat of the world. Tragic for the rest of us.

8th September 2010, 09:52 PM	#266
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,846	Originally Posted by tsig To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime. Oh, ffs. It is not the same organisation.Why is that so hard for you to understand. I repeat, IT IS NOT THE SAME ORGANISATION.

8th September 2010, 10:35 PM	#267
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,756	Originally Posted by bluskool No, but I do hold Christian beliefs responsible. And your comparison was ridiculous for the reason I already pointed out. The reason your position don't hold very well, is that those "christian belief" var extremly among the various sect which compose christianity. You can't really compare mormonism, baptist, catholic, protestant, orthodox church and people holding those belief. Sometimes it feel they are fully DIFFERENT religions. Same for Islam really. What you are doing is that you are holding a WHOLE set of religion responsible for the INTERPRETATION of some holy text by some. And that, is really what make no sense. About as much sense, as , say , condemning all women if one make you ckuckhold, or condemining all men if one rape you. And condemining all kid if one throw a stone at a window. Condemining all atheist because one decided to kill all pastor he saw. The fact that you are doing it on a philosophy/religion basis (condeming all islam or christianity for the act of a few of those) don't hold water.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

8th September 2010, 10:45 PM	#268
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,756	Originally Posted by tsig Would there be any way to protest Islam that you wouldn't label bigotry? BTW Islam is a religion not a race I am not sure why one would protest Islam, especially respectively to terrorism, as it is quite clear that it is not the will of the whole islam to do terrorist attacks. I don't see much protest against "christiniaty" in any country for example, even when they bomb abortion clinics. People in such case quite clearly only blame the bombers and the one supporting the bombers, and rightfully so. But if you really want to know, how about the USUAL form of protest ? Take some white paper or carton sheet. Write your message on it. Attach it to a wooden post with two light wood stuff horizontal to make it hold. Then wqalk in the street. Make sure on the sign you write what sort of action you think is a no-no. So that people knows how they can change. I dunno for the US but this is usually the form of protest we use around here. Book burning clearly send a wquite different type of message. The message is "we can't EVER be your friends because we HATE your religious belief, and we ** on your holy book". That is way different from protesting a religion (which is already way larger than protesting the act of a few idiot). It is attacking a religion. And fully an emotional only reaction. A gut anger. Hate. Mind you, it might be what you want, attack a religion, and make sure that people holding that religion are fully unwelcome, NO MATTER HOW CIVIL AND SOCIAL THEY ARE. Which is kind of a strange message to send to the few % of the american population : "you are head because your religion is and we tell you that because some idiot from middle east did the 9/11 and it does not matter if you lost people in the 9/11 attack **heads".
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life. Last edited by Aepervius; 8th September 2010 at 10:55 PM.

8th September 2010, 10:48 PM	#269
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,756	Originally Posted by tsig To me Johnny. Now I know I don't count in your scheme of things but it seems insensitive for an organization whose members killed many people 10 years ago to put up a meeting place close by the scene of the crime. We should close all the church within 600 feet of any abortion clinic bombing, or where any pedophilia act by priests happened over children (and all associated church within 600 feet). It is after all insensitive for the victim to let those church open. (blaming a whole religion for the act of a few is bigotery).
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

8th September 2010, 10:49 PM	#270
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,756	Originally Posted by alfaniner I have to wonder if the gubmint could step in at some point, declaring it a threat to national security or some such. I hope not. That would be a breach of the 1st amendement.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

8th September 2010, 10:57 PM	#271
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,846	Originally Posted by Aepervius We should close all the church within 600 feet of any abortion clinic bombing, or where any pedophilia act by priests happened over children (and all associated church within 600 feet). It is after all insensitive for the victim to let those church open. (blaming a whole religion for the act of a few is bigotery). Which amendment would this be a breach of?

8th September 2010, 11:20 PM	#272
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,767	Bloomberg Defends Florida Pastor's Right to Hold Quran Burning Rally Palin calls it 'unnecessary provocation' Actually, both Palin and Bloomberg said the same exact thing, with slightly different emphasis, but the headlines are quite different. They both said that the first amendment gives them the right to do it, but that it's not a good idea to do it.
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

8th September 2010, 11:22 PM	#273
rkzenrage Scholar Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 66	I just don't get this, many Muslims died in the towers. It does not make any sense.

9th September 2010, 12:15 AM	#274
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,846	Originally Posted by rkzenrage I just don't get this, many Muslims died in the towers. It does not make any sense. Well of course it doesn't. And we have people saying the book burning is insensitive, in the same way as the building of the 'victory mosque' is insensitive. Truly bizarre reasoning.

9th September 2010, 12:26 AM	#275
bozman Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Sacramento, Ca Posts: 505	Originally Posted by rkzenrage I just don't get this, many Muslims died in the towers. It does not make any sense. Not making sense is almost like Standard Operating Procedure for fundamentalist Christians. At least they're consistent about it.