God Stops Time For Atheists

Kahalachan · 16th August 2010, 05:46 PM

Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying.

In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real.

God may also allow us to completely comprehend hell and what it is like. We fully comprehend how bad hell is.

God now offers us the ability to accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior, which I would do. Anyone else who doesn't chooses hell with full realization of the consequences of their choice.

Is there reason why this cannot be true? In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge.

"It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible.

It doesn't have to be in the Bible for it to be true, the only issue is that it cannot contradict the Bible.

Which my "God stopping time" theory doesn't do.

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

noreligion · 16th August 2010, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

That it's just as delusional and based on faith as Christianity is.

godless dave · 16th August 2010, 05:57 PM

Shouldn't this be "God stops time for non-Christians?" Atheists are far from the only people who refuse to accept Christ as their savior.

money · 16th August 2010, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

One possible objection: A giant lack of supporting evidence...

willhaven · 16th August 2010, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

"It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible.

There were many things in the new testament that were not in the old testament. How do we know there won't be a NEW new testament that supersedes or appends the bible we have now?

I always like the "why not convert after death" argument. The only way the logic makes any sense is if it were a human creation to coerce belief.

If we have free will to choose or not choose to believe in Christianity, why would that free will be taken away after death? It would serve no purpose for god to have this arbitrary rule, but that seemingly arbitrary rule of god looks a lot less arbitrary when viewed through a lens where it serves a purpose for those wishing to spread a religion.

I always like to bring up conversion after death and sinning while in heaven as the ultimate examples of free will that Christians don't seem to believe would be possible. I never seem to get a coherent answer that makes any sense, not that I expect to, but it is interesting to see how they think. Sometimes it seems like it's never occurred to them.

Vortigern99 · 16th August 2010, 06:47 PM

I started a thread about this, from the biblical angle, about two weeks ago:

Christ Ministers to the Dead; Hence, No Hellfire for Anyone

It's still on page 1 of this Forum and raises the same points as the OP.

Fnord · 16th August 2010, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying.

Evidence, please? Also, the claim begs the question of the existence of God.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real.

Evidence, please?

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

God may also allow us to completely comprehend hell and what it is like.

That weasel-word "may" indicates doubt and a possible opinion, so no call for evidence is warranted.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

We fully comprehend how bad hell is.

Evidence, please? Also, the statement begs the question of whether or not Hell (Biblical realm of eternal torment) exists.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

God now offers us the ability to accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior...

God ... or an hallucination produced by an anoxic brain?

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

... which I would do.

Go for it. Let us know how it goes.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Anyone else who doesn't chooses hell with full realization of the consequences of their choice.

Evidence, please?

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Is there reason why this cannot be true?

If there is no God, no Heaven, no Hell, no soul, and no form of 'afterlife' for an alleged soul to experience in the first place.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge.

Evidence, please? Don't forget that He is also supposed to be "Wrathful and Vengeance-Seeking".

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

"It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars.

Fallacy of False Analogy.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

It doesn't have to be in the Bible for it to be true, the only issue is that it cannot contradict the Bible.

Then you may very well be a troll of the Atheistic persuasion, trying to trap Bible-based Religionists into revealing their contradictory data base, mad circular reasoning skilz, and their reliance on faith in 'goddidit' conclusions. If so, then welcome to the forum!

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Which my "God stopping time" theory doesn't do.

Congratulations. You are now a heretic, spreading your own version of theology. In a while, you may become a cultist. After that, a fringe sectarian, then a mainstream sectarian, then maybe a Bit-Time Religionist with full tax-exempt status. May you live so long.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

You didn't appoint me as Supreme Pontiff Incarnate of your belief system. Remember, I am the Fnord, not a clod ... although there have been many other clods before me...

roger · 16th August 2010, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

You just completely made it all up?

theprestige · 16th August 2010, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by noreligion

That it's just as delusional and based on faith as Christianity is.

Originally Posted by money

One possible objection: A giant lack of supporting evidence...

Originally Posted by roger

You just completely made it all up?

Y'all are missing the point.

This is the stock anti-Christian argument of the form:

Christians claim their god is awsome; but
The Christian god is, objectively, a jerk; and
We already know Christians have made up a false god to suit their purposes; therefore
Christians are, objectively, jerks.

Seriously, this argument appears so often on these fora I'm surprised you hadn't figured it out by the time you were halfway through the OP.

caniswalensis · 16th August 2010, 07:47 PM

I think a lot of posters here are missing the point. If I see it correctly the OP is putting this out as a hypothetical to illustrate a percieved unfairness in demanding a lifetime of faith-based belief with no evidence, the punishment for failure being an eternity of suffering.

Be that as it may, I have asort of secret fantasy I'd like to share:

I live my life out as an athiest, seeking to do the best job at it that I can, and make the most of it.

I die.

Surprise of surprises, I find that there is an afterlife of some sort, and I am confronted by a mighty diety, who tells me there is to be a judgement.

And then this awesome diety says to me:

You didn't believe in me.

You didn't fear me.

you didn't whorship me.

Yet, you did all the right things, just because you knew they were right.

Welcome.

Hey, I said it was a fantasy, right?

ThermionicScott · 16th August 2010, 07:54 PM

Back when I was a believer with doubts, I consoled myself thinking that God would forgive those doubts when I died. "Well, at least you were using that noggin I gave ya." Now, of course, it's a non-issue.

- Scott

nchammer326 · 16th August 2010, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

"It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible.

That was the dumbest thing I've read all day. If that post had a face, I would kick it in the balls.

gnome · 16th August 2010, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

This doesn't seem too different, except that it's God bullying me into Christianity and claiming I have the free will to choose.

Sure, you can choose. But no matter what you think you'll burn in hell forever if you don't pick what I want you to.

Thanks for that marvelous gift of free will, there, Mr. God.

Loss Leader · 16th August 2010, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Is there reason why this cannot be true? In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge.

Well, there's the problem of energy usage. If God is going to show you anything, he's going to have to use energy to do it. And if your brain is going to process anything, it's going to use energy to do that.

The problem is that you want all this to happen within one single unit of Planck time. To my knowledge, that amount of time is insufficient for any energy to radiate anywhere.

Even if we hand-waved this away, one still must come to terms with the stunning immorality and/or stupidity of God. He rewards those who worship him with perfect happiness but punishes those who don't with unending torture. Why would anyone want to worship a god who defines good and evil as whether someone does or doesn't like him. Why would God be such a jerk?

On the other hand, the atheist may make the rational calculation to just go along with everything in order to get into heaven. In that case, how could God not detect such insincerity?

Quote:

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

That it's nonsense?

Wowbagger · 16th August 2010, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

I might object on the basis that it has no relevance to the living. If, for argument sake, what you say is true, then when it happens - it happens. I don't see how such a thing would make any impact on our lives, right now.

We can't prove it does happen, and strictly speaking, we can't prove that it does not happen. Therefore, it is superfluous, and I think it would make better use of my time discussing more productive thought exercises.

Kahalachan · 16th August 2010, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by caniswalensis

I think a lot of posters here are missing the point. If I see it correctly the OP is putting this out as a hypothetical to illustrate a percieved unfairness in demanding a lifetime of faith-based belief with no evidence, the punishment for failure being an eternity of suffering.

Thank you. That's some of it.

And it's more of a "Why can't this be true within Christian doctrine" Obviously there is no evidence and I just made it up. That's an objection for us who already do not accept Christianity to begin with as much of it lacks evidence.

Making stuff up and adding onto a doctrine in order for it to be logically coherent is far better than stubbornly holding onto something that makes absolutely no sense. God being all powerful is sort of a "plot device" that could allow god to take any means in order to reconcile any contradictions.

As a matter of fact, this line of thinking is what kept me as a Christian longer than normal. Eternal hell just for not being Christian makes no sense. My mind had to do these mental gymnastics in order for it to make sense.

There are ways for Christianity to make more sense. I don't see why more Christians opt for this route rather than respond to contradictions with non-sequitors.

Skeptic Ginger · 16th August 2010, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

us atheists

I'm skeptical you are an atheist. Perhaps I totally don't get your OP.

roger · 16th August 2010, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

There are ways for Christianity to make more sense. I don't see why more Christians opt for this route rather than respond to contradictions with non-sequitors.

Because adding things to a hypothetical make it less likely, not more likely.

For example: Susan always liked dancing, and wanted to be a dancer when she grew up. Which is more likely

a) Susan works in the insurance field
b) Susan works in the insurance field, and dances Ballet with an amateur company for fun.

A, of course, is more likely, even though it seems that B better explains Susan's personality.

Likewise, just making stuff up makes the story less plausible because you are positing 1) the bible and 2) something you made up, whereas someone else is just positing 1) the bible.

Southwind17 · 16th August 2010, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by roger

Because adding things to a hypothetical make it less likely, not more likely.

For example: Susan always liked dancing, and wanted to be a dancer when she grew up. Which is more likely

a) Susan works in the insurance field
b) Susan works in the insurance field, and dances Ballet with an amateur company for fun.

A, of course, is more likely, even though it seems that B better explains Susan's personality.

Likewise, just making stuff up makes the story less plausible because you are positing 1) the bible and 2) something you made up, whereas someone else is just positing 1) the bible.

I like!

Kahalachan · 17th August 2010, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by roger

Because adding things to a hypothetical make it less likely, not more likely.

For example: Susan always liked dancing, and wanted to be a dancer when she grew up. Which is more likely

a) Susan works in the insurance field
b) Susan works in the insurance field, and dances Ballet with an amateur company for fun.

A, of course, is more likely, even though it seems that B better explains Susan's personality.

Likewise, just making stuff up makes the story less plausible because you are positing 1) the bible and 2) something you made up, whereas someone else is just positing 1) the bible.

I understand the conjunction fallacy. But when working with something impossible, more information to clarify would be needed.

Going with your example

a) Susan is a human with chicken wings and feathers.
b) Susan is a human with chicken wings and feathers in this children's book entitled "The Chicken girl".

The added information clarifies the statement and helps it make sense.

Marduk · 17th August 2010, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by godless dave

Shouldn't this be "God stops time for non-Christians?" Atheists are far from the only people who refuse to accept Christ as their savior.

Ah yes, but the rest of us have already sorted out our exit strategy and have no need of Jewish Zombies.

thankyou all the same.

SatanicSheep · 17th August 2010, 02:49 AM

Wholly irrelevant thought excercise because the Catholic church will sell you a scapular here, in this world, that is as effective as anything else at securing a place in heaven.

Belz... · 17th August 2010, 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us.

God doesn't exist.

Where are you going with this, anyway ?

MortFurd · 17th August 2010, 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by nchammer326

That was the dumbest thing I've read all day. If that post had a face, I would kick it in the balls.

**Checks pants, looks in the mirror **

Dude, you keep yours someplace other than the rest of us do.

GrandMasterFox · 17th August 2010, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

Umm... Cause it makes god completely useless pointless and stupid?
Why should I bother doing any of the not so fun stuff like praying, going to church etc if I can just walk into heaven once I get solid proof?

Also, it means that god is utterly powerless to show himself before you die since he hasn't really bothrered doing it before then. Why is that?

Kahalachan · 17th August 2010, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox

Umm... Cause it makes god completely useless pointless and stupid?
Why should I bother doing any of the not so fun stuff like praying, going to church etc if I can just walk into heaven once I get solid proof?

Also, it means that god is utterly powerless to show himself before you die since he hasn't really bothrered doing it before then. Why is that?

You would do those things because you love god, not to gain a reward.

I guess I can add on more Ad Hoc and say that god wanted to maximize the amount of time we live a natural life before fully revealing himself in a supernatural way.

Beerina · 17th August 2010, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying.

In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real.

God may also allow us to completely comprehend hell and what it is like. We fully comprehend how bad hell is.

God now offers us the ability to accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior, which I would do. Anyone else who doesn't chooses hell with full realization of the consequences of their choice.

Is there reason why this cannot be true? In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge.

"It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible.

It doesn't have to be in the Bible for it to be true, the only issue is that it cannot contradict the Bible.

Which my "God stopping time" theory doesn't do.

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

So God is real, but still a thug, and threatens us with punishment for...what? We can't not believe since He's just proven Himself, according to your premise.

We could "accept" the plan, but that doesn't mean we still won't find it an idiotic plan. Then what? We get thrown into Hell for thinking, correctly, God is an Ass?

That's not helping God's case that He's kind, much.

GrandMasterFox · 17th August 2010, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

You would do those things because you love god, not to gain a reward.

So it's compulsary because you love the guy? Not really...
It's called comandments for a reason. It's not supposed to be an optional proof of love.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

I guess I can add on more Ad Hoc and say that god wanted to maximize the amount of time we live a natural life before fully revealing himself in a supernatural way.

Which would make our lives here completely pointless. The purpose of the afterlife fable is that god is testing you here and then setting you up for the next eternal life.

If following god's decree is not important what so ever, who cares about him?

That is why deisim is completely useless. It doesn't affect our life for good or bad therefore it's irelavent and pointless.

MRC_Hans · 17th August 2010, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying.

In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real.

Why should she wait till that time?

Quote:

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

That it has superfluous complexity and makes no sense.

It assumes that the only thing that decides whether we go to heaven or hell is our own decision. Obviously, anybody would pick the most pleasant option, knowing the full implications.

OTOH, if God is just and judges people on their deeds, this moment of evaluation is not necessary. God already knows if we deserve it or not.

Hans

Sun Countess · 17th August 2010, 08:03 AM

Kahalachan, you seem to be hanging onto some twisted thread of Pascal's Wager. You say that you were a Christian but are now an atheist, yet you are clinging to the idea that there really might be a god - the Christian god - who will give you one last chance to avoid eternal torment, even though you've rejected him.

Is it fair to characterize the line of thinking from your OP as, "I've rejected the Christian god, but on the very off-chance if he does exist, his sense of justice and righteousness will give me one millisecond of time to see him and allow me to accept him, as opposed to kicking me straight to hell. There's nothing in the bible to say he couldn't do this, so I wonder what my fellow atheists will think, because I bet some of them are just as worried as I am."

If somebody's worried about god giving them another chance, then I wouldn't classify that person as an atheist. I don't worry about what god might do for me when I die, any more than I worry about what Superman might do for me if I accidentally drive my car over a bridge.

Mister Agenda · 17th August 2010, 08:15 AM

I don't see that, Sun Countess. I'm seeing a proposed addition to Christian theology that might reduce their urge to proselytize, which I would welcome.

An even greater improvement would be to get rid of hell for nonbelievers altogether, which has support in some denominations.

Vortigern99 · 17th August 2010, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Vortigern99

I started a thread about this, from the biblical angle, about two weeks ago:

Christ Ministers to the Dead; Hence, No Hellfire for Anyone

It's still on page 1 of this Forum and raises the same points as the OP.

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

And it's more of a "Why can't this be true within Christian doctrine" Obviously there is no evidence and I just made it up. That's an objection for us who already do not accept Christianity to begin with as much of it lacks evidence.

Is this thing on? /taps keyboard/

Drewbot · 17th August 2010, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

If they allowed this scenario, then you would go through life without paying any $$ into the church coffers. They can not accept this scenario.

Cainkane1 · 17th August 2010, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying.

In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real.

God may also allow us to completely comprehend hell and what it is like. We fully comprehend how bad hell is.

God now offers us the ability to accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior, which I would do. Anyone else who doesn't chooses hell with full realization of the consequences of their choice.

Is there reason why this cannot be true? In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge.

"It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible.

It doesn't have to be in the Bible for it to be true, the only issue is that it cannot contradict the Bible.

Which my "God stopping time" theory doesn't do.

What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?

nah Gawd sens us to a HAIL!!!!

SOdhner · 17th August 2010, 08:30 AM

There are quite a few Christian offshoots that believe something like this. The one I was raised in recounts the following anecdote:

Quote:

Soon after I spoke with them, and at last about the Lord. When I called Him "Christ" I perceived a certain repugnance in them; but the reason was disclosed, namely, that they had brought this from the world, from their having learned that Christians lived worse lives than they did, and were destitute of charity. But when I called Him simply "Lord" they were interiorly moved. Afterwards, they were taught by the angels that the Christian doctrine beyond every other in the world prescribes love and charity, but that there are few who live in accordance with it. There are heathen who have come to know while they lived in the world, both from interaction and report, that Christians lead bad lives, are addicted to adultery, hatred, quarreling, drunkenness, and the like, which they themselves abhor because such things are contrary to their religion. These in the other life are more timid than others about accepting the truths of faith; but they are taught by the angels that the Christian doctrine, as well as the faith itself, teaches a very different life, but that the lives of Christians are less in accord with their doctrine than the lives of heathen. When they recognize this they receive the truths of faith, and adore the Lord, but less readily than others.

It is a common thing for heathen that have worshiped any god under an image or statue, or any graven thing to be introduced, when they come into the other life, to certain spirits in place of their gods or idols, in order that they may rid themselves of their fantasies. When they have been with these for some days, the fantasies are put away. Also those that have worshiped men are sometimes introduced to the men they have worshiped, or to others in their place - as many of the Jews to Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and David-but when they come to see that they are human the same as others, and that they can give them no help, they become ashamed, and are carried to their own places in accordance with their lives.

Not all Christians have a problem with the idea of being "corrected" after death.

caniswalensis · 17th August 2010, 09:28 AM

Logically, I think it holds water that an all-powerful creator of the universe has some reponsability to its creations to get them started on the right foot.

I have to wonder about the fate of all the humans that came before religion. I think it is clear from the archeological/historical record that there is not a universal religion that started them all. Certainly not in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

Shouldn't a diety of this type be there right at the start, making sure that the beings whose eternal souls depend on it, have a clear understanding of their situation?

Obviously, I do not subscribe to a literal interpretaion of Genisis. If someone here does, I do not mean to offend or start a debate. I am just posting from my own perspecrtive.

Regards, Canis

Belz... · 17th August 2010, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

You would do those things because you love god, not to gain a reward.

Nobody loves god. They say they do because it's expected of their faith. You can't love what you don't know.

thaiboxerken · 17th August 2010, 10:06 AM

This hypothetical situation, based on fiction, is really silly.

Loss Leader · 17th August 2010, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Kahalachan

Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying.

In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real.

Incidentally, this theory was initially propounded by none other than Archie Bunker. I wish I could find the quote. Essentially, he said that when Jews get to the gates of heaven, St. Peter takes them aside, explains to them what's what, and then they go in.

Chucky · 17th August 2010, 10:12 AM

So in his 'wisdom' rather than making all this as perfectly clear as you suggest many years ago earlier in this supposed persons life, so that they might do some good because of it, all is revealed the instant before death? That's a dumb god you've got there (assuming that it is not the Buddha or Brahma or Zeus and that you've been pointed in the wrong direction in the first place).

What would be the point of a god not making this clear all along? What good comes from waiting until the last possible instant? Furthermore, the part that really boggles me is how does fully revealing a truth early on in one's life qualify as 'bullying'?

16th August 2010, 05:46 PM	#1
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,256	God Stops Time For Atheists Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying. In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real. God may also allow us to completely comprehend hell and what it is like. We fully comprehend how bad hell is. God now offers us the ability to accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior, which I would do. Anyone else who doesn't chooses hell with full realization of the consequences of their choice. Is there reason why this cannot be true? In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge. "It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible. It doesn't have to be in the Bible for it to be true, the only issue is that it cannot contradict the Bible. Which my "God stopping time" theory doesn't do. What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity?
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,256	__________________ For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

16th August 2010, 05:57 PM	#3
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,130	Shouldn't this be "God stops time for non-Christians?" Atheists are far from the only people who refuse to accept Christ as their savior.
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

16th August 2010, 06:00 PM	#4
money Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 578	Originally Posted by Kahalachan What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? One possible objection: A giant lack of supporting evidence...
money Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 578	__________________ I am the first mammal to wear pants, yeah... - "Do the Evolution" - Pearl Jam www.stopsylvia.com

16th August 2010, 06:41 PM	#5
willhaven Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,004	Originally Posted by Kahalachan "It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible. There were many things in the new testament that were not in the old testament. How do we know there won't be a NEW new testament that supersedes or appends the bible we have now? I always like the "why not convert after death" argument. The only way the logic makes any sense is if it were a human creation to coerce belief. If we have free will to choose or not choose to believe in Christianity, why would that free will be taken away after death? It would serve no purpose for god to have this arbitrary rule, but that seemingly arbitrary rule of god looks a lot less arbitrary when viewed through a lens where it serves a purpose for those wishing to spread a religion. I always like to bring up conversion after death and sinning while in heaven as the ultimate examples of free will that Christians don't seem to believe would be possible. I never seem to get a coherent answer that makes any sense, not that I expect to, but it is interesting to see how they think. Sometimes it seems like it's never occurred to them.
	Last edited by willhaven; 16th August 2010 at 06:42 PM.

16th August 2010, 06:47 PM	#6
Vortigern99 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 5,020	I started a thread about this, from the biblical angle, about two weeks ago: Christ Ministers to the Dead; Hence, No Hellfire for Anyone It's still on page 1 of this Forum and raises the same points as the OP.
	__________________ "I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99 / Noah D. Henson "One thing we've learned (and the Internet confirms this) is that humans will screw just about anything." -- Theagenes

16th August 2010, 05:53 PM	#2
noreligion Guest Join Date: May 2010 Location: Easton, Pennsylvania Posts: 1,002	Originally Posted by Kahalachan What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? That it's just as delusional and based on faith as Christianity is.

16th August 2010, 07:22 PM	#7
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by Kahalachan Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying. Evidence, please? Also, the claim begs the question of the existence of God. Originally Posted by Kahalachan In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real. Evidence, please? Originally Posted by Kahalachan God may also allow us to completely comprehend hell and what it is like. That weasel-word "may" indicates doubt and a possible opinion, so no call for evidence is warranted. Originally Posted by Kahalachan We fully comprehend how bad hell is. Evidence, please? Also, the statement begs the question of whether or not Hell (Biblical realm of eternal torment) exists. Originally Posted by Kahalachan God now offers us the ability to accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior... God ... or an hallucination produced by an anoxic brain? Originally Posted by Kahalachan ... which I would do. Go for it. Let us know how it goes. Originally Posted by Kahalachan Anyone else who doesn't chooses hell with full realization of the consequences of their choice. Evidence, please? Originally Posted by Kahalachan Is there reason why this cannot be true? If there is no God, no Heaven, no Hell, no soul, and no form of 'afterlife' for an alleged soul to experience in the first place. Originally Posted by Kahalachan In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge. Evidence, please? Don't forget that He is also supposed to be "Wrathful and Vengeance-Seeking". Originally Posted by Kahalachan "It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. Fallacy of False Analogy. Originally Posted by Kahalachan The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible. Ditto. Originally Posted by Kahalachan It doesn't have to be in the Bible for it to be true, the only issue is that it cannot contradict the Bible. Then you may very well be a troll of the Atheistic persuasion, trying to trap Bible-based Religionists into revealing their contradictory data base, mad circular reasoning skilz, and their reliance on faith in 'goddidit' conclusions. If so, then welcome to the forum! Originally Posted by Kahalachan Which my "God stopping time" theory doesn't do. Congratulations. You are now a heretic, spreading your own version of theology. In a while, you may become a cultist. After that, a fringe sectarian, then a mainstream sectarian, then maybe a Bit-Time Religionist with full tax-exempt status. May you live so long. Originally Posted by Kahalachan What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? You didn't appoint me as Supreme Pontiff Incarnate of your belief system. Remember, I am the Fnord, not a clod ... although there have been many other clods before me...
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

16th August 2010, 07:34 PM	#8
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Originally Posted by Kahalachan What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? You just completely made it all up?
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir

16th August 2010, 07:40 PM	#9
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,609	Originally Posted by noreligion That it's just as delusional and based on faith as Christianity is. Originally Posted by money One possible objection: A giant lack of supporting evidence... Originally Posted by roger You just completely made it all up? Y'all are missing the point. This is the stock anti-Christian argument of the form: Christians claim their god is awsome; but The Christian god is, objectively, a jerk; and We already know Christians have made up a false god to suit their purposes; therefore Christians are, objectively, jerks. Seriously, this argument appears so often on these fora I'm surprised you hadn't figured it out by the time you were halfway through the OP.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,609

16th August 2010, 07:47 PM	#10
caniswalensis Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2,567	I think a lot of posters here are missing the point. If I see it correctly the OP is putting this out as a hypothetical to illustrate a percieved unfairness in demanding a lifetime of faith-based belief with no evidence, the punishment for failure being an eternity of suffering. Be that as it may, I have asort of secret fantasy I'd like to share: I live my life out as an athiest, seeking to do the best job at it that I can, and make the most of it. I die. Surprise of surprises, I find that there is an afterlife of some sort, and I am confronted by a mighty diety, who tells me there is to be a judgement. And then this awesome diety says to me: You didn't believe in me. You didn't fear me. you didn't whorship me. Yet, you did all the right things, just because you knew they were right. Welcome. Hey, I said it was a fantasy, right?

16th August 2010, 07:54 PM	#11
ThermionicScott An Excellent Heat Source Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: SW CR IA US NA PE Posts: 148	Back when I was a believer with doubts, I consoled myself thinking that God would forgive those doubts when I died. "Well, at least you were using that noggin I gave ya." Now, of course, it's a non-issue. - Scott
	Last edited by ThermionicScott; 16th August 2010 at 07:59 PM. Reason: smiley fail

16th August 2010, 08:00 PM	#12
nchammer326 Scholar Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 105	Originally Posted by Kahalachan "It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible. That was the dumbest thing I've read all day. If that post had a face, I would kick it in the balls.
nchammer326 Scholar Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 105

16th August 2010, 08:12 PM	#13
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,872	Originally Posted by Kahalachan What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? This doesn't seem too different, except that it's God bullying me into Christianity and claiming I have the free will to choose. Sure, you can choose. But no matter what you think you'll burn in hell forever if you don't pick what I want you to. Thanks for that marvelous gift of free will, there, Mr. God.
gnome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,872	__________________

16th August 2010, 08:13 PM	#14
Loss Leader Opinionated Jerk Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New York Posts: 11,885	Originally Posted by Kahalachan Is there reason why this cannot be true? In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge. Well, there's the problem of energy usage. If God is going to show you anything, he's going to have to use energy to do it. And if your brain is going to process anything, it's going to use energy to do that. The problem is that you want all this to happen within one single unit of Planck time. To my knowledge, that amount of time is insufficient for any energy to radiate anywhere. Even if we hand-waved this away, one still must come to terms with the stunning immorality and/or stupidity of God. He rewards those who worship him with perfect happiness but punishes those who don't with unending torture. Why would anyone want to worship a god who defines good and evil as whether someone does or doesn't like him. Why would God be such a jerk? On the other hand, the atheist may make the rational calculation to just go along with everything in order to get into heaven. In that case, how could God not detect such insincerity? Quote: What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? That it's nonsense?
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16th August 2010, 08:27 PM	#15
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 13,527	Originally Posted by Kahalachan What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? I might object on the basis that it has no relevance to the living. If, for argument sake, what you say is true, then when it happens - it happens. I don't see how such a thing would make any impact on our lives, right now. We can't prove it does happen, and strictly speaking, we can't prove that it does not happen. Therefore, it is superfluous, and I think it would make better use of my time discussing more productive thought exercises.
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

16th August 2010, 09:32 PM	#16
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,256	Originally Posted by caniswalensis I think a lot of posters here are missing the point. If I see it correctly the OP is putting this out as a hypothetical to illustrate a percieved unfairness in demanding a lifetime of faith-based belief with no evidence, the punishment for failure being an eternity of suffering. Thank you. That's some of it. And it's more of a "Why can't this be true within Christian doctrine" Obviously there is no evidence and I just made it up. That's an objection for us who already do not accept Christianity to begin with as much of it lacks evidence. Making stuff up and adding onto a doctrine in order for it to be logically coherent is far better than stubbornly holding onto something that makes absolutely no sense. God being all powerful is sort of a "plot device" that could allow god to take any means in order to reconcile any contradictions. As a matter of fact, this line of thinking is what kept me as a Christian longer than normal. Eternal hell just for not being Christian makes no sense. My mind had to do these mental gymnastics in order for it to make sense. There are ways for Christianity to make more sense. I don't see why more Christians opt for this route rather than respond to contradictions with non-sequitors.
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,256	__________________ For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

16th August 2010, 09:40 PM	#17
Skeptic Ginger formerly skeptigirl Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shifting through paradigms Posts: 40,583	Originally Posted by Kahalachan us atheists I'm skeptical you are an atheist. Perhaps I totally don't get your OP.
	__________________ (*Tired of continuing to hear the "Democrat Party" repeatedly I've decided to adopt the name, ~~Pubbie Party, Repubs~~ "Republics" and Republic Party in response.)

16th August 2010, 10:01 PM	#18
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Originally Posted by Kahalachan There are ways for Christianity to make more sense. I don't see why more Christians opt for this route rather than respond to contradictions with non-sequitors. Because adding things to a hypothetical make it less likely, not more likely. For example: Susan always liked dancing, and wanted to be a dancer when she grew up. Which is more likely a) Susan works in the insurance field b) Susan works in the insurance field, and dances Ballet with an amateur company for fun. A, of course, is more likely, even though it seems that B better explains Susan's personality. Likewise, just making stuff up makes the story less plausible because you are positing 1) the bible and 2) something you made up, whereas someone else is just positing 1) the bible.
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir

16th August 2010, 11:10 PM	#19
Southwind17 Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Location: Location Posts: 4,462	Originally Posted by roger Because adding things to a hypothetical make it less likely, not more likely. For example: Susan always liked dancing, and wanted to be a dancer when she grew up. Which is more likely a) Susan works in the insurance field b) Susan works in the insurance field, and dances Ballet with an amateur company for fun. A, of course, is more likely, even though it seems that B better explains Susan's personality. Likewise, just making stuff up makes the story less plausible because you are positing 1) the bible and 2) something you made up, whereas someone else is just positing 1) the bible. I like!
	__________________ The views expressed here do not necessarily represent the unanimous view of all parts of my mind "Always" and "never" are two words that you should always remember never to use. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. Why is it that when I ask for a pair of hands a brain comes attached?

17th August 2010, 02:33 AM	#20
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,256	Originally Posted by roger Because adding things to a hypothetical make it less likely, not more likely. For example: Susan always liked dancing, and wanted to be a dancer when she grew up. Which is more likely a) Susan works in the insurance field b) Susan works in the insurance field, and dances Ballet with an amateur company for fun. A, of course, is more likely, even though it seems that B better explains Susan's personality. Likewise, just making stuff up makes the story less plausible because you are positing 1) the bible and 2) something you made up, whereas someone else is just positing 1) the bible. I understand the conjunction fallacy. But when working with something impossible, more information to clarify would be needed. Going with your example a) Susan is a human with chicken wings and feathers. b) Susan is a human with chicken wings and feathers in this children's book entitled "The Chicken girl". The added information clarifies the statement and helps it make sense.
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,256	__________________ For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

17th August 2010, 02:46 AM	#21
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by godless dave Shouldn't this be "God stops time for non-Christians?" Atheists are far from the only people who refuse to accept Christ as their savior. Ah yes, but the rest of us have already sorted out our exit strategy and have no need of Jewish Zombies. thankyou all the same.

17th August 2010, 02:49 AM	#22
SatanicSheep Thinker Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 243	Wholly irrelevant thought excercise because the Catholic church will sell you a scapular here, in this world, that is as effective as anything else at securing a place in heaven.
SatanicSheep Thinker Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 243

17th August 2010, 02:50 AM	#23
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,516	Originally Posted by Kahalachan Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. God doesn't exist. Where are you going with this, anyway ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

17th August 2010, 03:53 AM	#24
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by nchammer326 That was the dumbest thing I've read all day. If that post had a face, I would kick it in the balls. Checks pants, looks in the mirror Dude, you keep yours someplace other than the rest of us do.
	__________________ Ace Baker gets pwned by Shrinker, and I get an Avatar.

17th August 2010, 04:07 AM	#25
GrandMasterFox Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,315	Originally Posted by Kahalachan What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? Umm... Cause it makes god completely useless pointless and stupid? Why should I bother doing any of the not so fun stuff like praying, going to church etc if I can just walk into heaven once I get solid proof? Also, it means that god is utterly powerless to show himself before you die since he hasn't really bothrered doing it before then. Why is that?

17th August 2010, 04:36 AM	#26
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,256	Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox Umm... Cause it makes god completely useless pointless and stupid? Why should I bother doing any of the not so fun stuff like praying, going to church etc if I can just walk into heaven once I get solid proof? Also, it means that god is utterly powerless to show himself before you die since he hasn't really bothrered doing it before then. Why is that? You would do those things because you love god, not to gain a reward. I guess I can add on more Ad Hoc and say that god wanted to maximize the amount of time we live a natural life before fully revealing himself in a supernatural way.
Kahalachan Illuminator Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 3,256	__________________ For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

17th August 2010, 05:44 AM	#27
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Kahalachan Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying. In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real. God may also allow us to completely comprehend hell and what it is like. We fully comprehend how bad hell is. God now offers us the ability to accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior, which I would do. Anyone else who doesn't chooses hell with full realization of the consequences of their choice. Is there reason why this cannot be true? In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge. "It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible. It doesn't have to be in the Bible for it to be true, the only issue is that it cannot contradict the Bible. Which my "God stopping time" theory doesn't do. What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? So God is real, but still a thug, and threatens us with punishment for...what? We can't not believe since He's just proven Himself, according to your premise. We could "accept" the plan, but that doesn't mean we still won't find it an idiotic plan. Then what? We get thrown into Hell for thinking, correctly, God is an Ass? That's not helping God's case that He's kind, much.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right? Last edited by Beerina; 17th August 2010 at 05:45 AM.

17th August 2010, 05:59 AM	#28
GrandMasterFox Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,315	Originally Posted by Kahalachan You would do those things because you love god, not to gain a reward. So it's compulsary because you love the guy? Not really... It's called comandments for a reason. It's not supposed to be an optional proof of love. Originally Posted by Kahalachan I guess I can add on more Ad Hoc and say that god wanted to maximize the amount of time we live a natural life before fully revealing himself in a supernatural way. Which would make our lives here completely pointless. The purpose of the afterlife fable is that god is testing you here and then setting you up for the next eternal life. If following god's decree is not important what so ever, who cares about him? That is why deisim is completely useless. It doesn't affect our life for good or bad therefore it's irelavent and pointless.

17th August 2010, 06:42 AM	#29
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Whithin earshot of the North Sea Posts: 16,602	Originally Posted by Kahalachan Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying. In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real. Why should she wait till that time? Quote: What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? That it has superfluous complexity and makes no sense. It assumes that the only thing that decides whether we go to heaven or hell is our own decision. Obviously, anybody would pick the most pleasant option, knowing the full implications. OTOH, if God is just and judges people on their deeds, this moment of evaluation is not necessary. God already knows if we deserve it or not. Hans
	__________________ Don't. Just don't.

17th August 2010, 08:03 AM	#30
Sun Countess Appearance of intelligence Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 3,176	Kahalachan, you seem to be hanging onto some twisted thread of Pascal's Wager. You say that you were a Christian but are now an atheist, yet you are clinging to the idea that there really might be a god - the Christian god - who will give you one last chance to avoid eternal torment, even though you've rejected him. Is it fair to characterize the line of thinking from your OP as, "I've rejected the Christian god, but on the very off-chance if he does exist, his sense of justice and righteousness will give me one millisecond of time to see him and allow me to accept him, as opposed to kicking me straight to hell. There's nothing in the bible to say he couldn't do this, so I wonder what my fellow atheists will think, because I bet some of them are just as worried as I am." If somebody's worried about god giving them another chance, then I wouldn't classify that person as an atheist. I don't worry about what god might do for me when I die, any more than I worry about what Superman might do for me if I accidentally drive my car over a bridge.

17th August 2010, 08:15 AM	#31
Mister Agenda Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Columbia, SC Posts: 2,622	I don't see that, Sun Countess. I'm seeing a proposed addition to Christian theology that might reduce their urge to proselytize, which I would welcome. An even greater improvement would be to get rid of hell for nonbelievers altogether, which has support in some denominations.

17th August 2010, 08:25 AM	#32
Vortigern99 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 5,020	Originally Posted by Vortigern99 I started a thread about this, from the biblical angle, about two weeks ago: Christ Ministers to the Dead; Hence, No Hellfire for Anyone It's still on page 1 of this Forum and raises the same points as the OP. Originally Posted by Kahalachan And it's more of a "Why can't this be true within Christian doctrine" Obviously there is no evidence and I just made it up. That's an objection for us who already do not accept Christianity to begin with as much of it lacks evidence. Is this thing on? /taps keyboard/
	__________________ "I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99 / Noah D. Henson "One thing we've learned (and the Internet confirms this) is that humans will screw just about anything." -- Theagenes

17th August 2010, 08:27 AM	#33
Drewbot Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,846	Originally Posted by Kahalachan What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? If they allowed this scenario, then you would go through life without paying any $$ into the church coffers. They can not accept this scenario.
Drewbot Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,846	__________________ "I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

17th August 2010, 08:29 AM	#34
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,198	Originally Posted by Kahalachan Right before any of us atheists die, god stops time for us. One unit of Planck time just shy of us dying. In this period, god completely addresses our arguments. QED. We have no response and god proves any possible argument against his existence or qualities to our full understanding. We have complete proof god is real. God may also allow us to completely comprehend hell and what it is like. We fully comprehend how bad hell is. God now offers us the ability to accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior, which I would do. Anyone else who doesn't chooses hell with full realization of the consequences of their choice. Is there reason why this cannot be true? In fact, it almost has to be true for an all loving and god who is a perfect judge. "It's not in the Bible" Neither are cars. The existence of cars is true, even though it's not in the Bible. It doesn't have to be in the Bible for it to be true, the only issue is that it cannot contradict the Bible. Which my "God stopping time" theory doesn't do. What possible objection can there be for this aside from a desire to bully us into Christianity? nah Gawd sens us to a HAIL!!!!
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

17th August 2010, 08:30 AM	#35
SOdhner Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 837	There are quite a few Christian offshoots that believe something like this. The one I was raised in recounts the following anecdote: Quote: Soon after I spoke with them, and at last about the Lord. When I called Him "Christ" I perceived a certain repugnance in them; but the reason was disclosed, namely, that they had brought this from the world, from their having learned that Christians lived worse lives than they did, and were destitute of charity. But when I called Him simply "Lord" they were interiorly moved. Afterwards, they were taught by the angels that the Christian doctrine beyond every other in the world prescribes love and charity, but that there are few who live in accordance with it. There are heathen who have come to know while they lived in the world, both from interaction and report, that Christians lead bad lives, are addicted to adultery, hatred, quarreling, drunkenness, and the like, which they themselves abhor because such things are contrary to their religion. These in the other life are more timid than others about accepting the truths of faith; but they are taught by the angels that the Christian doctrine, as well as the faith itself, teaches a very different life, but that the lives of Christians are less in accord with their doctrine than the lives of heathen. When they recognize this they receive the truths of faith, and adore the Lord, but less readily than others. It is a common thing for heathen that have worshiped any god under an image or statue, or any graven thing to be introduced, when they come into the other life, to certain spirits in place of their gods or idols, in order that they may rid themselves of their fantasies. When they have been with these for some days, the fantasies are put away. Also those that have worshiped men are sometimes introduced to the men they have worshiped, or to others in their place - as many of the Jews to Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and David-but when they come to see that they are human the same as others, and that they can give them no help, they become ashamed, and are carried to their own places in accordance with their lives. Not all Christians have a problem with the idea of being "corrected" after death.
SOdhner Muse Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 837