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9th September 2010, 09:16 AM | #1 |
New Blood
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Please help me debunk this exorcism case
Guys,please help me out here. I am in the process of deconverting from religion and finally seeing the light of reason.
I hope you won't ridicule me for this, as this process is hard and stories such as that below can still have a hold on some part of my psyche. What I hope is you can help me debunk the story on different levels. It concerns an apparently professional doctor, Richard E Gallagher findings in an apparent demonic posession case. I cannot post link on a site called "wnd" but the essence of the story is below and its easy to google it. "Real-life case of demon possession documented" "..... they struggled to restrain her. Remarkably, for about 30 minutes, she actually levitated about half a foot in the air." The purpose of Gallagher's paper, he says, is to "document a contemporary and clear-cut case of demonic possession." He explains that even those who doubt such a phenomenon exists may find this case "rather persuasive." What are peoples feelings about (1) This doctor: I notice he speaks at some international group of exorcists (stop giggling there at the back), which kind of degrades his objectivity somewhat. Could he be contacted or his place of work and asked for verification (2) If such a finding was true and a medical document produced, wouldnt this shake not only the foundations of the medical world but also the rest of it too? It didnt apparently as it was in 2008.. (3) If this man is genuine, why would he risk his professional career by writing this stuff. Surely his hospistal would ask him to leave? (Though I notice one of the hospitals he worked at was Catholic) (4) Hoax. I cannot see how the victim could pull off a levitation hoax in a hospital to fool all those people. So how/why could they all lie? (5) How was this story not basically on every message board ever?Or did I have my eyes shut at the time. (6) It is the levitation part I cannot mentally overcome, the rest of it I see can be attributed to madness. I did post something a few months on a similar subject and people were helpful. Hope you can help. |
9th September 2010, 09:18 AM | #2 |
Master Poster
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How bout "the whole thing's a ***** lie"
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9th September 2010, 09:23 AM | #3 |
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9th September 2010, 09:26 AM | #4 |
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Pseudoseizures sometimes produce violent movements that have been confused (by gullible people) for levitation. A recent Derren Brown programme covered a similar case:
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9th September 2010, 09:27 AM | #5 |
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World Net Daily
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=58835 |
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9th September 2010, 03:12 PM | #6 |
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If they are really looking for proof of demon possession then they should not restrain her but allow her to levitation. I mean what's the problem with it, are they worried she will float out the window or something?
So much is happening at once, the person lying on the bed is thrashing about and screaming and spitting and the like so it is really difficult to be able to watch all that is happening at once. Parts of her could have been suspended at a time, and someone caught up in the moment might have said, "She's levitating!" and later everyone thought they saw it happen too. There is a lot of reason why someone would fake this (from the religious side) they might think that faking it will bring more people to God. And while it is a lie, the ends justify the means. Demon possession brings them into the church and fills the plate with coin. Congratulations on your new challenging of your beliefs. I think instead of focusing on the floating person (remember you were not there, so it is all second hand) you might really try thinking about demons. IF Demons really exist what would that mean for us in our everyday lives? Can you really imagine if they were real that we would be able to go on with our day to day existence? Why have babies, pet a cat, be kind to someone or plant flowers if it is possible that we have demons amongst us. The idea is just silly. If we lived in the Buffy World (season 8) where Buffy and friends go into one of the levels of Hell and fight demons, then that is what life would be like. Every Day, Every Minute of our lives would be spent preparing to fight them. No one would work, dine out, watch TV, or anything that deviated from fighting against them. Does that make sense? You can't believe that demons enter into people here and there and still stand in line at the bank. How do you know that a demon isn't entering the person standing next to you? If you follow this to his natural end of demon possession then the end results are just plain silly. |
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9th September 2010, 03:14 PM | #7 |
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PS I'll see if I can find the relevant clip from this show.
ETA: This one might work for non-UK viewers, but you will have to find the relevant part yourselves, as I can't view this in the UK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LyaQdMg8u0 |
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9th September 2010, 05:10 PM | #8 |
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Wow those Darren Brown videos were awesome. I just kept shaking my head and saying this is where the believers and skeptics just can't find common ground. It was so clear that what he was showing as proof was clearly not.
I felt really really sad for the ghost hunter, he has spent his entire life doing this, thinking he is helping others. What else could he say to Darren. My entire life has been spent on this fraud that I have diluted myself and others into believing? Sad. Very sad. |
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9th September 2010, 05:18 PM | #9 |
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As an aside, and unrelated to this possession case, many of the people on this forum have been through the same deconversion process as you, so you are very unlikely to be ridiculed. I was never religious, but I understand how hard it can be to face up to doubt, particularly if your family and friends remain certain. Don't try to rush things, just keep asking those questions.
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9th September 2010, 05:21 PM | #10 |
Thinker
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Blacklotus, there are no demons, ghosts, spirits, esp, gods or miracles. There is nothing to fear in the dark except for real objects that you can bump into.
Levitation isn't real but makes for good movies. Keep reading this site and join some of the other science and atheist web sites to learn more about reality. Try PZ Myers site: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/ |
9th September 2010, 05:50 PM | #11 |
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Aww, halohms, don't be mean. There's always a chance that anything might be real...a small chance...a really, incredibly tiny chance. After all, isn't that part of the fun of the Million Dollar Challenge?
But in all honesty there is simply not enough proof of actual demon possession and a great deal of proof of various neurological and physical problems that match the descriptions of demon possession. I will also point out that while the idea of possession appears in many cultures across the world the only thing that links these stories are the physical behaviors of the victims. No two cultures even seem to agree about what is doing the possession, how to stop it or even if it is good or evil. In some cultures you beat the invading spirits out, in others you coax them out with presents and treats, and still others say you should just leave the victim in peace until the spirits move on. This all sounds more like an attempt to explain the unexplainable rather than actual observation of the same supernatural phenomenon across cultures. |
9th September 2010, 07:16 PM | #12 |
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9th September 2010, 08:02 PM | #13 |
New Blood
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Thanks for your replies.
Since nothing seems to have changed in the world as a result of this mans allegations, I can only assume it has been discarded by most as just a tall tale. Yet I would imagine when someone in his position makes a claim people might sit up and listen. At the very least the state medical board should be rethinking his membership... |
9th September 2010, 08:58 PM | #14 |
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11th September 2010, 03:55 PM | #15 |
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Interesting that you mention this. The levitation angle made me think of the famous painting of the man with tetanus. His back is so tightly arched that he might well appear to be levitating under the right circumstances. I think if someone really did some creative thrashing around and back-arching (either consciously or due to some mental disorder), people inclined toward the paranormal who witness such events might jump to some rather improbable conclusions. |
11th September 2010, 05:01 PM | #16 |
Illuminator
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BL, there's not enough at wnd.com or the original publication to debunk. First off, wnd.com is a crank site, not a reliable new source. I wouldn't take anything you read there seriously until you found corroboration from a respectable news source.
Second, the New Oxford Review, where the board-certified psychiatrist originally published his article is also not a worthy science source. From its "About Us" page:
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Do not pursue claims of supernatural events without being given enough detail concerning what happened (exactly where, exactly when, who was there and, especially, what was the outcome). It's not your place to fill in or discover the details of these stories. It's the claimant's burden to provide enough detail that you can, as far as possible, investigate their claims. This article is a waste of time. Best to ignore it and move along. |
12th September 2010, 06:19 AM | #17 |
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The fact that it's on World Net Daily is sufficient to conclude that it's made up.
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12th September 2010, 08:55 AM | #18 |
New Blood
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Really good replies that have helped me a lot!
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12th September 2010, 10:05 AM | #19 |
Philosopher
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Hey BlackLotus, thanks for your post and good luck on your deconversion. I've recently deconverted from a lifetime of conservative Catholicism (my parents still reject Vatican II reforms).
If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1027091/). Like Sweeney, I became more - not less - interested in charitable works toward my fellow humans after I finally summoned the courage to say out loud "There is no God." You will too. Regarding this thread on demonic possession, it was actually my rejection of the notion of a "devil" that was the first big crack in the dam that led the flood finally drain through. Maybe it will help you too: Really think about what you understand about God: Eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving. Now really think about what you've been taught about Satan. Satan is eternal. Satan knows our thoughts. Satan may not be "all" powerful, but he can apparently conjure up anything at any time and God hasn't had much success trying to defeat him. Finally, Satan is all-hating. So . . . Why did God make Satan? If he didn't, but Satan was an angel who got into a power struggle with God . . . *why wasn't God cool enough for the angel (and his minions) to remain happily in his presence? *why didn't God just kill the petulant angel, or will him to have never existed in the first place? *why did God allow Satan to escape with powers basically equivalent to his own? *why did our perfect God allow his most precious creation (humans, formed in his image - and the very first two he ever created!) to be immediately duped by Satan, thus screwing up God's master plan for paradise? *why isn't there any explanation of this in the Bible? You can come up with plenty of related questions on your own, but you get the idea. Either God is a vindictive ******* who has intentionally planted evil in our world, or he a bungling fool who can't even control the very things he created. Neither is very god-like, unless you look at the personality flaws of the various gods of other ancient societies. Once you get to the cognitive dissonance of trying to believe in God and Satan at the same time, then try viewing your religion as someone outside of it. For me, learning more about the wacked-out stuff that Mormons profess made me consider how weird we Catholics must seem to Mormons - and to every non-Catholic in the world. Catholicism is every bit as ridiculous as Mormonism or Judaism or Hinduism or Islam or any of thousands of other perspectives of the non-existent supernatural world. They are nothing but ancient fairy tales told to help explain otherwise unexplainable events, serve as moral lessons, provide cultural unity, solidify money and power for a privileged few, motivate the masses in times of war, create reasons for going to that war in the first place, and create opportunities to share doughnuts and compare clothing with pleasant people you don't actually like enough to hang out with from Monday to Saturday. |
12th September 2010, 10:58 AM | #20 |
Philosopher
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You know the whole demonic possession thing boils down to one premise to me.
It is a common response that the reason atheists do not get possessed , or have not witnessed possessions or demonic activity, is that satan would avoid showing it to them because it would obviously make them switch over to god's side. And he is happy with getting our souls anyway. So why wouldn't the church simply keep some atheists on staff for things like this? I would easily sign up for this job assuming i am being paid a decent wage ( 15-20 bucks an hour or a decent salary, covering travel expenses.) , regardless of if i believed i was actually doing any good. Heck i have worked worse jobs. Think of it, a Linda Blair Esque scenario is happening, priests have got nothing, the pea soup is flying. And i walk in drinking a Red bull and checking my text messages. Poof suddenly the devil leaves not wanting to show me the legitimacy of the paranormal. Now, at the very least the priests have some time to think about an action plan without having to deal with the levitation, the thrashing , and whatnot. And at best i have just instantly put the kibosh on something that takes them a while to do. It seems, really by the standard possession dogma that god has given atheists a superpower. Which, really, and i mean really makes no sense. Why wouldn't he give the people who believe in him the ability to instantly kibosh the possession in such an easy manner? The fact that the church has not even thought of this, let alone implemented it screams to me they know as well as i do there are no demons. Them not doing this makes about as much sense as the military not using a device that instantly deactivates IEDs. |
12th September 2010, 08:19 PM | #21 |
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Quote:
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12th September 2010, 08:45 PM | #22 |
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In the fictional scenario of WP Blatty's The Exorcist (book and film), Regan and her mother are atheist, or at least agnostic. (Doctor: "Do you have any religious views?" Chris MacNeil: "No." Doctor: "What about your daughter?" Chris: "No." There is more detail in the book about Chris' lack of belief in anything deific or supernatural.)
So the situation which Sadhatter has described in which "Poof suddenly the devil leaves not wanting to show me the legitimacy of the paranormal" is addressed in the very story he is referencing (via "a Linda Blair Esque scenario"). I'm not saying this has any bearing on reality, only on the fiction presented in the novel and movie. |
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13th September 2010, 08:24 PM | #23 |
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"What harm would it do if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian Church...a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God; he would accept them." Martin Luther
Nevermind that irksome commandment about bearing false witness. |
15th September 2010, 07:45 AM | #24 |
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Soooooo is it debunked yet?
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