The Unobtainable Condition

aggle-rithm · 15th September 2010, 05:31 AM

In another thread Wolfman spoke of the Raelian belief that if we build an embassy for them, aliens will come and give us eternal life. That got me thinking of other times when a group or movement said, "If we can only accomplish 'blah', then we will obtain 'bleh'", where "blah" is something that will probably never be accomplished, thus guaranteeing that the existence of "bleh", the ultimate revelation or prize, will never actually be tested.

The first example that popped into my mind was the often-stated goal of the 9/11 "Truth" movement, to get an impartial, independent investigation with full subpeona power into the involvement of the US goverment, the New World Order, and/or the Jews in the conspiracy to fake the terrorist attacks. They know, deep down, that they will never get such an investigation. Even if they do, they will simply say, "No, we need a REAL investigation", and thus their beliefs go forever untested.

Are there other examples? I'm drawing a blank right now.

kuroyume0161 · 15th September 2010, 05:56 AM

If you believe in Christ then you will have eternal life.

If enough people practice Transcendental Meditation then there will be world peace.

This is a typical statement of almost any religion or cult: that doing something according to the deity, founder, prophet, leader (whomever) will yield some remarkable result.

Lothian · 15th September 2010, 06:01 AM

Cargo Cults^WP

aggle-rithm · 15th September 2010, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

If you believe in Christ then you will have eternal life.

If enough people practice Transcendental Meditation then there will be world peace.

This is a typical statement of almost any religion or cult: that doing something according to the deity, founder, prophet, leader (whomever) will yield some remarkable result.

Well, these are examples of conditions that CAN be met...but I suppose that if the expected result doesn't materialize, the people involved will tend to conclude that they didn't do it right, rather than that their belief is fundamentally wrong.

Ladewig · 15th September 2010, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

If you believe in Christ then you will have eternal life.

But we could add televangelist logic. Hurricanes are often described by them as evidence that God is responding to American turning away from Jesus. If that were true, then theoretically, it would be possible to convert enough people to Jesus that God would never send hurricanes to the U.S.

These same folk and their followers believe that if the U.S. reinstated school prayer, we would see lower murder rates, lower dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, lower unemployment rates, etc, etc.

kuroyume0161 · 15th September 2010, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

Well, these are examples of conditions that CAN be met...but I suppose that if the expected result doesn't materialize, the people involved will tend to conclude that they didn't do it right, rather than that their belief is fundamentally wrong.

True, but about the same as the Raelians. For a more concrete example, we can use Mark 16:17-18:

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.

In this case, one supposes that no one has believed enough or invoked his name properly since there is no evidence that such things every happened or are possible.

A Christian Sceptic · 15th September 2010, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

These same folk and their followers believe that if the U.S. reinstated school prayer, we would see lower murder rates, lower dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, lower unemployment rates, etc, etc.

Actually - I've heard from plenty of pastors that once they took out school prayer crime, teen pregnancy, etc. all increased. That should be testable.

The whole "took prayer out of school" (which is how it's phrased) is ridiculous. It's impossible to ever stop people from praying. I've always wondered if the government has taken official state / school sponsored prayer out of the school why would that have any effect on individuals from praying for the school and the students. After all - you don't have to be at the physical location your praying about to have that particular prayer to be considered.

During the 1990's I got tired of hearing our youth pastor constantly griping about how earthquakes were increasing so the end was near. All it took at the time (around 1995) was to download the earthquake data from the US geological website and graph it out.

The conclusion I came to were: 1) we don't have enough data to say in the entire history of the world earthquakes are increasing, but 2) based on the data we did have the largest, destructive, measureable earthquakes were actually decreasing. (The peak appeared to be in the 1940's / 50's.) I still hear this supposed increase in earthquakes even from non-religious people. I haven't looked at the data since the mid-90's. That could be easily tested though.

talkie toaster · 15th September 2010, 10:24 AM

Well they all laughed at Kevin Costcutter when he built that ~~Netball~~ ~~Rounders~~ Baseball field so Hairless Joe could......could......what in the name of Glavin was that film about.

RobRoy · 15th September 2010, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by A Christian Sceptic

During the 1990's I got tired of hearing our youth pastor constantly griping about how earthquakes were increasing so the end was near. All it took at the time (around 1995) was to download the earthquake data from the US geological website and graph it out.

The conclusion I came to were: 1) we don't have enough data to say in the entire history of the world earthquakes are increasing, but 2) based on the data we did have the largest, destructive, measureable earthquakes were actually decreasing. (The peak appeared to be in the 1940's / 50's.) I still hear this supposed increase in earthquakes even from non-religious people. I haven't looked at the data since the mid-90's. That could be easily tested though.

My understanding is that this is true of all natural disasters, which appear to be on the increase in the relative sense (Wow, look at the news!) but in truth have remained consistent throughout history. We currently just have more coverage.

A Christian Sceptic · 15th September 2010, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by RobRoy

My understanding is that this is true of all natural disasters, which appear to be on the increase in the relative sense (Wow, look at the news!) but in truth have remained consistent throughout history. We currently just have more coverage.

Definitely more coverage. We can learn about disasters in near real time whereas before the internet it may or may not ever be reported in your local newspaper, let alone the news.

Also - I definitly think your age also affects your perception of an increase. Not only do you have an accumulated amount of memories of disasters you begin to pay more attention. As a kid your likely to probably be oblivious to any disaster unless it directly affects you whereas an adult you may be aware of the disaster on the other side of the globe even if it will never affect you.

I can predict the future: The next chance I get I'll ask my kids what they think of the Pakistani Floods that recently happened. My Prediction of their response: Huh? Hey check out my new Harry Potter wand I just got from Goodwill. (Or a variation thereof).

Ladewig · 15th September 2010, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by A Christian Sceptic

Actually - I've heard from plenty of pastors that once they took out school prayer crime, teen pregnancy, etc. all increased. That should be testable.

The whole "took prayer out of school" (which is how it's phrased) is ridiculous. It's impossible to ever stop people from praying. I've always wondered if the government has taken official state / school sponsored prayer out of the school why would that have any effect on individuals from praying for the school and the students. After all - you don't have to be at the physical location your praying about to have that particular prayer to be considered.

My reading leads me to believe that there are two schools of thought among these particular Christians. One group believes it is the prayers themselves that will reduce the cited categories. The other group believes that allowing school-led prayer shows students that there is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. It is learning this fundamental concept that will change the behavior of the students (and future adults).

A Christian Sceptic · 15th September 2010, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

My reading leads me to believe that there are two schools of thought among these particular Christians. One group believes it is the prayers themselves that will reduce the cited categories. The other group believes that allowing school-led prayer shows students that there is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. It is learning this fundamental concept that will change the behavior of the students (and future adults).

I think that second point you make might have been ~~Lyndon B. Johnson's~~ Eisenhower's? exact reasoning about adding Under God to the Pledge of Allegiance. I can't find his quote on that though. My personal impression in my interactions were the people I heard refer to school prayer thought the first way.

Resume · 15th September 2010, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

My reading leads me to believe that there are two schools of thought among these particular Christians. One group believes it is the prayers themselves that will reduce the cited categories. The other group believes that allowing school-led prayer shows students that there is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. It is learning this fundamental concept that will change the behavior of the students (and future adults).

And both schools of thought do not demonstrate much thought.

aggle-rithm · 15th September 2010, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by A Christian Sceptic

I think that second point you make might have been ~~Lyndon B. Johnson's~~ Eisenhower's? exact reasoning about adding Under God to the Pledge of Allegiance. I can't find his quote on that though. My personal impression in my interactions were the people I heard refer to school prayer thought the first way.

I heard that the "under God" phrase was added to emphasize the idea of Americans as Godly people, in contrast with the Communists.

A Christian Sceptic · 15th September 2010, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

I heard that the "under God" phrase was added to emphasize the idea of Americans as Godly people, in contrast with the Communists.

Yeah - and when he signed it I believe I read his quote where he said now all children all over America will be acknowledging (or praying) to God. I might be mistaken. I'm having trouble finding his exact quote.

A Christian Sceptic · 15th September 2010, 11:39 AM

Here is his quote:

Quote:

In 1953, the Roman Catholic men's group, the Knights of Columbus mounted a campaign to add the words "under God" to the Pledge. The nation was suffering through the height of the cold war, and the McCarthy communist witch hunt. Partly in reaction to these factors, a reported 15 resolutions were initiated in Congress to change the pledge. They got nowhere until Rev. George Docherty (1911 - 2008) preached a sermon that was attended by President Eisenhower and the national press corps on 1954-FEB-7. His sermon said in part:

"Apart from the mention of the phrase 'the United States of America,' it could be the pledge of any republic. In fact, I could hear little Muscovites repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag in Moscow."

After the service, President Eisenhower said that he agreed with the sermon. In the following weeks, the news spread, and public opinion grew. Three days later, Senator Homer Ferguson, (R-MI), sponsored a bill to add God to the Pledge. It was approved as a joint resolution 1954-JUN-8. It was signed into law on Flag Day, JUN-14. President Eisenhower said at the time:

"From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty."

Found here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm

Paulhoff · 15th September 2010, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

I heard that the "under God" phrase was added to emphasize the idea of Americans as Godly people, in contrast with the Communists.

The real problem, Communism has nothing to do with gods, and that is how our government is suppost to be too.

Paul

I Ratant · 15th September 2010, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

But we could add televangelist logic. Hurricanes are often described by them as evidence that God is responding to American turning away from Jesus. If that were true, then theoretically, it would be possible to convert enough people to Jesus that God would never send hurricanes to the U.S.

These same folk and their followers believe that if the U.S. reinstated school prayer, we would see lower murder rates, lower dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, lower unemployment rates, etc, etc.

.
Christopher Columbus recorded the first hurricanes as such, this before there was a USofA.
It is interesting to see the way natural events can fit religious needs.

Resume · 15th September 2010, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Christopher Columbus recorded the first hurricanes as such, this before there was a USofA.
It is interesting to see the way natural events can fit religious needs.

God was aiming at the heathens.

I Ratant · 15th September 2010, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

God was aiming at the heathens.

.
And -you- know this how?*

I remember dear old deluded Robertson claiming success in having god divert a hurricane from coming ashore in Robertson's community and killing people there, to come ashore someplace else to kill people.

*"It is not given man to know god's reasons".
"The lord works in mysterious ways".
"With this sign, you will conquer".
etc.

RobRoy · 15th September 2010, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Paulhoff

The real problem, Communism has nothing to do with gods, and that is how our government is suppost to be too.

Paul

Not to the general public. Establishing an Us vs. Them (or rather U.S. vs Everyone Else) is never easier than dividing the line along hellbound, godless atheists and morally-straight, good guys who pray every Sunday.

Tiktaalik · 15th September 2010, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by aggle-rithm

In another thread Wolfman spoke of the Raelian belief that if we build an embassy for them, aliens will come and give us eternal life. That got me thinking of other times when a group or movement said, "If we can only accomplish 'blah', then we will obtain 'bleh'", where "blah" is something that will probably never be accomplished, thus guaranteeing that the existence of "bleh", the ultimate revelation or prize, will never actually be tested.

How about, "If only we could devise/you would only agree to... a Proper Test of my paranormal skills, I would be vindicated."

Not exactly a group unless you want to count paranormal claimants as a group...

Hellbound · 15th September 2010, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by RobRoy

Not to the general public. Establishing an Us vs. Them (or rather U.S. vs Everyone Else) is never easier than dividing the line along hellbound, godless atheists and morally-straight, good guys who pray every Sunday.

Dude!

I got my own category!

tsig · 15th September 2010, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

True, but about the same as the Raelians. For a more concrete example, we can use Mark 16:17-18:

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.

In this case, one supposes that no one has believed enough or invoked his name properly since there is no evidence that such things every happened or are possible.

Never say never.

Snake handling or serpent handling is a religious ritual in a small number of Pentecostal churches in the U.S., usually characterized as rural and Holiness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling

They also drink poison.

kuroyume0161 · 15th September 2010, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

Never say never.

Snake handling or serpent handling is a religious ritual in a small number of Pentecostal churches in the U.S., usually characterized as rural and Holiness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling

They also drink poison.

While true, it is not evidential. We also have lots of faith healers performing laying of hands and supposedly curing the sick. But is it for real or something else? Handling snakes is just a matter of practice and caution (even veteran snake handlers 'occasionally' get bitten). Drinking poison, I'd have to know what it is, how much, and what they do afterward.

Maia · 15th September 2010, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

While true, it is not evidential. We also have lots of faith healers performing laying of hands and supposedly curing the sick. But is it for real or something else? Handling snakes is just a matter of practice and caution (even veteran snake handlers 'occasionally' get bitten). Drinking poison, I'd have to know what it is, how much, and what they do afterward.

There's THAT one again!! If I knew how to link to all the posts I've ever done about the Church of God in Christ With Signs Following, I would. They do drink arsenic as well as handling snakes; I've seen it done on film. Blowtorches and sticking forks in electric sockets are also occasionally involved (this never has seemed very Biblical to me...) Some people have definitely been bitten by snakes. I don't know about the arsenic. However, it's possible to consume very small amounts without being harmed.

Now, speaking of "if x would only happen, then y could occur..." one example I read a few days ago basically consisted of the argument that if aliens would only visit earth right now, we'd be able to test the supposition that a specific situation would be enough to scare them off and give up on the idea of colonizing the human race. Apparently, this would consist of everyone connected with Jersey Shore, because the aliens would be terrified that they'd be infected with malignant stupidity and would take off at warp speed.

RobRoy · 16th September 2010, 07:27 AM

There’s a whole slew of LDS prophecies that failed outright, but were later rendered conditional. Smith, when confronted with the prophecy of selling his BoM copyright to Canada made the awesome claim that some revelations come from God, some from men and some from the devil.

Not certain what good a prophet of God is if he can’t sort out which voices in his head have a classical music soundtrack and which have Bauhaus.

grayman · 16th September 2010, 07:40 AM

I am reminded of the joke:

"Why do you keep snapping your fingers?"

"Because it keeps the lions away."

"But there are no lions in this country."

"See? It works!"

Weak Kitten · 16th September 2010, 07:49 AM

It seems like the trump card of all unobtainable conditions is the "proper amount of faith". Since it is impossible to prove or disprove what is going on "deep within your soul" it is easy to claim that whoever didn't get their prayer answered or died of snakebite or whatever were not truly faithful and had hidden doubts.

RobRoy · 16th September 2010, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Weak Kitten

It seems like the trump card of all unobtainable conditions is the "proper amount of faith". Since it is impossible to prove or disprove what is going on "deep within your soul" it is easy to claim that whoever didn't get their prayer answered or died of snakebite or whatever were not truly faithful and had hidden doubts.

Or didn't get the children they desperately wanted, or the guy/girl of their dreams, or the job, etc. ad nauseum. The requirements of faith are apparently much more demanding for some.

Dunstan · 16th September 2010, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Maia

I don't know about the arsenic. However, it's possible to consume very small amounts without being harmed.

Well, I've spent the last several years building up an immunity to iocane powder....

RobRoy · 16th September 2010, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dunstan

Well, I've spent the last several years building up an immunity to iocane powder....

Iocane! I'd stake my life on it.

15th September 2010, 05:31 AM	#1
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,156	The Unobtainable Condition In another thread Wolfman spoke of the Raelian belief that if we build an embassy for them, aliens will come and give us eternal life. That got me thinking of other times when a group or movement said, "If we can only accomplish 'blah', then we will obtain 'bleh'", where "blah" is something that will probably never be accomplished, thus guaranteeing that the existence of "bleh", the ultimate revelation or prize, will never actually be tested. The first example that popped into my mind was the often-stated goal of the 9/11 "Truth" movement, to get an impartial, independent investigation with full subpeona power into the involvement of the US goverment, the New World Order, and/or the Jews in the conspiracy to fake the terrorist attacks. They know, deep down, that they will never get such an investigation. Even if they do, they will simply say, "No, we need a REAL investigation", and thus their beliefs go forever untested. Are there other examples? I'm drawing a blank right now.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

15th September 2010, 05:56 AM	#2
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Loveland, CO, USA Posts: 1,628	If you believe in Christ then you will have eternal life. If enough people practice Transcendental Meditation then there will be world peace. This is a typical statement of almost any religion or cult: that doing something according to the deity, founder, prophet, leader (whomever) will yield some remarkable result.
	Last edited by kuroyume0161; 15th September 2010 at 05:58 AM.

15th September 2010, 06:07 AM	#4
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,156	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 If you believe in Christ then you will have eternal life. If enough people practice Transcendental Meditation then there will be world peace. This is a typical statement of almost any religion or cult: that doing something according to the deity, founder, prophet, leader (whomever) will yield some remarkable result. Well, these are examples of conditions that CAN be met...but I suppose that if the expected result doesn't materialize, the people involved will tend to conclude that they didn't do it right, rather than that their belief is fundamentally wrong.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

15th September 2010, 06:12 AM	#5
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 If you believe in Christ then you will have eternal life. But we could add televangelist logic. Hurricanes are often described by them as evidence that God is responding to American turning away from Jesus. If that were true, then theoretically, it would be possible to convert enough people to Jesus that God would never send hurricanes to the U.S. These same folk and their followers believe that if the U.S. reinstated school prayer, we would see lower murder rates, lower dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, lower unemployment rates, etc, etc.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board. Last edited by Ladewig; 15th September 2010 at 06:15 AM.

15th September 2010, 09:53 AM	#6
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Loveland, CO, USA Posts: 1,628	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm Well, these are examples of conditions that CAN be met...but I suppose that if the expected result doesn't materialize, the people involved will tend to conclude that they didn't do it right, rather than that their belief is fundamentally wrong. True, but about the same as the Raelians. For a more concrete example, we can use Mark 16:17-18: And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed. In this case, one supposes that no one has believed enough or invoked his name properly since there is no evidence that such things every happened or are possible.
	Last edited by kuroyume0161; 15th September 2010 at 09:54 AM.

15th September 2010, 06:01 AM	#3
Lothian Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: https://twitter.com/CV4UK Posts: 10,373	Cargo Cults^WP

15th September 2010, 10:18 AM	#7
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	Originally Posted by Ladewig These same folk and their followers believe that if the U.S. reinstated school prayer, we would see lower murder rates, lower dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, lower unemployment rates, etc, etc. Actually - I've heard from plenty of pastors that once they took out school prayer crime, teen pregnancy, etc. all increased. That should be testable. The whole "took prayer out of school" (which is how it's phrased) is ridiculous. It's impossible to ever stop people from praying. I've always wondered if the government has taken official state / school sponsored prayer out of the school why would that have any effect on individuals from praying for the school and the students. After all - you don't have to be at the physical location your praying about to have that particular prayer to be considered. During the 1990's I got tired of hearing our youth pastor constantly griping about how earthquakes were increasing so the end was near. All it took at the time (around 1995) was to download the earthquake data from the US geological website and graph it out. The conclusion I came to were: 1) we don't have enough data to say in the entire history of the world earthquakes are increasing, but 2) based on the data we did have the largest, destructive, measureable earthquakes were actually decreasing. (The peak appeared to be in the 1940's / 50's.) I still hear this supposed increase in earthquakes even from non-religious people. I haven't looked at the data since the mid-90's. That could be easily tested though.
	__________________ How's it hanging?

15th September 2010, 10:24 AM	#8
talkie toaster Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Hey !! I've been upgraded, got a shelf all to my own....Go Talkie, Go Talkie Posts: 358	Well they all laughed at Kevin Costcutter when he built that ~~Netball~~ ~~Rounders~~ Baseball field so Hairless Joe could......could......what in the name of Glavin was that film about.

15th September 2010, 10:24 AM	#9
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by A Christian Sceptic During the 1990's I got tired of hearing our youth pastor constantly griping about how earthquakes were increasing so the end was near. All it took at the time (around 1995) was to download the earthquake data from the US geological website and graph it out. The conclusion I came to were: 1) we don't have enough data to say in the entire history of the world earthquakes are increasing, but 2) based on the data we did have the largest, destructive, measureable earthquakes were actually decreasing. (The peak appeared to be in the 1940's / 50's.) I still hear this supposed increase in earthquakes even from non-religious people. I haven't looked at the data since the mid-90's. That could be easily tested though. My understanding is that this is true of all natural disasters, which appear to be on the increase in the relative sense (Wow, look at the news!) but in truth have remained consistent throughout history. We currently just have more coverage.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us.

15th September 2010, 10:30 AM	#10
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	Originally Posted by RobRoy My understanding is that this is true of all natural disasters, which appear to be on the increase in the relative sense (Wow, look at the news!) but in truth have remained consistent throughout history. We currently just have more coverage. Definitely more coverage. We can learn about disasters in near real time whereas before the internet it may or may not ever be reported in your local newspaper, let alone the news. Also - I definitly think your age also affects your perception of an increase. Not only do you have an accumulated amount of memories of disasters you begin to pay more attention. As a kid your likely to probably be oblivious to any disaster unless it directly affects you whereas an adult you may be aware of the disaster on the other side of the globe even if it will never affect you. I can predict the future: The next chance I get I'll ask my kids what they think of the Pakistani Floods that recently happened. My Prediction of their response: Huh? Hey check out my new Harry Potter wand I just got from Goodwill. (Or a variation thereof).
	__________________ How's it hanging?

15th September 2010, 11:11 AM	#11
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,827	Originally Posted by A Christian Sceptic Actually - I've heard from plenty of pastors that once they took out school prayer crime, teen pregnancy, etc. all increased. That should be testable. The whole "took prayer out of school" (which is how it's phrased) is ridiculous. It's impossible to ever stop people from praying. I've always wondered if the government has taken official state / school sponsored prayer out of the school why would that have any effect on individuals from praying for the school and the students. After all - you don't have to be at the physical location your praying about to have that particular prayer to be considered. My reading leads me to believe that there are two schools of thought among these particular Christians. One group believes it is the prayers themselves that will reduce the cited categories. The other group believes that allowing school-led prayer shows students that there is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. It is learning this fundamental concept that will change the behavior of the students (and future adults).
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

15th September 2010, 11:25 AM	#12
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	Originally Posted by Ladewig My reading leads me to believe that there are two schools of thought among these particular Christians. One group believes it is the prayers themselves that will reduce the cited categories. The other group believes that allowing school-led prayer shows students that there is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. It is learning this fundamental concept that will change the behavior of the students (and future adults). I think that second point you make might have been ~~Lyndon B. Johnson's~~ Eisenhower's? exact reasoning about adding Under God to the Pledge of Allegiance. I can't find his quote on that though. My personal impression in my interactions were the people I heard refer to school prayer thought the first way.
	__________________ How's it hanging? Last edited by A Christian Sceptic; 15th September 2010 at 11:31 AM.

15th September 2010, 11:31 AM	#13
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,039	Originally Posted by Ladewig My reading leads me to believe that there are two schools of thought among these particular Christians. One group believes it is the prayers themselves that will reduce the cited categories. The other group believes that allowing school-led prayer shows students that there is such a thing as absolute right and absolute wrong. It is learning this fundamental concept that will change the behavior of the students (and future adults). And both schools of thought do not demonstrate much thought.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,039

15th September 2010, 11:33 AM	#14
aggle-rithm Ardent Formulist Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 14,156	Originally Posted by A Christian Sceptic I think that second point you make might have been ~~Lyndon B. Johnson's~~ Eisenhower's? exact reasoning about adding Under God to the Pledge of Allegiance. I can't find his quote on that though. My personal impression in my interactions were the people I heard refer to school prayer thought the first way. I heard that the "under God" phrase was added to emphasize the idea of Americans as Godly people, in contrast with the Communists.
	__________________ To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion. Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.

15th September 2010, 11:37 AM	#15
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm I heard that the "under God" phrase was added to emphasize the idea of Americans as Godly people, in contrast with the Communists. Yeah - and when he signed it I believe I read his quote where he said now all children all over America will be acknowledging (or praying) to God. I might be mistaken. I'm having trouble finding his exact quote.
	__________________ How's it hanging?

15th September 2010, 11:39 AM	#16
A Christian Sceptic Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I'm a male! Posts: 2,288	Here is his quote: Quote: In 1953, the Roman Catholic men's group, the Knights of Columbus mounted a campaign to add the words "under God" to the Pledge. The nation was suffering through the height of the cold war, and the McCarthy communist witch hunt. Partly in reaction to these factors, a reported 15 resolutions were initiated in Congress to change the pledge. They got nowhere until Rev. George Docherty (1911 - 2008) preached a sermon that was attended by President Eisenhower and the national press corps on 1954-FEB-7. His sermon said in part: "Apart from the mention of the phrase 'the United States of America,' it could be the pledge of any republic. In fact, I could hear little Muscovites repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag in Moscow." After the service, President Eisenhower said that he agreed with the sermon. In the following weeks, the news spread, and public opinion grew. Three days later, Senator Homer Ferguson, (R-MI), sponsored a bill to add God to the Pledge. It was approved as a joint resolution 1954-JUN-8. It was signed into law on Flag Day, JUN-14. President Eisenhower said at the time: "From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty." Found here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm
	__________________ How's it hanging? Last edited by A Christian Sceptic; 15th September 2010 at 11:40 AM.

15th September 2010, 11:43 AM	#17
Paulhoff You can't expect perfection. Join Date: May 2005 Location: South Florida Posts: 12,570	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm I heard that the "under God" phrase was added to emphasize the idea of Americans as Godly people, in contrast with the Communists. The real problem, Communism has nothing to do with gods, and that is how our government is suppost to be too. Paul
	__________________ For our money "IN WHICH GOD DO YOU TRUST" Much worse than the Question not asked, is the Answer not Given Don't accept an answer that can't be questioned - God is Surperfluous A society fails when ignorance outweighs knowledge Science doesn’t know everything, but religion doesn’t know anything Life is so horrent and also so beautiful, but without it there is nothing

15th September 2010, 12:28 PM	#18
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Ladewig But we could add televangelist logic. Hurricanes are often described by them as evidence that God is responding to American turning away from Jesus. If that were true, then theoretically, it would be possible to convert enough people to Jesus that God would never send hurricanes to the U.S. These same folk and their followers believe that if the U.S. reinstated school prayer, we would see lower murder rates, lower dropout rates, lower teen pregnancy rates, lower abortion rates, lower unemployment rates, etc, etc. . Christopher Columbus recorded the first hurricanes as such, this before there was a USofA. It is interesting to see the way natural events can fit religious needs.

15th September 2010, 12:32 PM	#19
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,039	Originally Posted by I Ratant . Christopher Columbus recorded the first hurricanes as such, this before there was a USofA. It is interesting to see the way natural events can fit religious needs. God was aiming at the heathens.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,039

15th September 2010, 01:06 PM	#20
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Resume God was aiming at the heathens. . And -you- know this how?* I remember dear old deluded Robertson claiming success in having god divert a hurricane from coming ashore in Robertson's community and killing people there, to come ashore someplace else to kill people. *"It is not given man to know god's reasons". "The lord works in mysterious ways". "With this sign, you will conquer". etc.

15th September 2010, 01:46 PM	#21
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by Paulhoff The real problem, Communism has nothing to do with gods, and that is how our government is suppost to be too. Paul Not to the general public. Establishing an Us vs. Them (or rather U.S. vs Everyone Else) is never easier than dividing the line along hellbound, godless atheists and morally-straight, good guys who pray every Sunday.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us.

15th September 2010, 02:23 PM	#22
Tiktaalik Half True Scotsperson Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,991	Originally Posted by aggle-rithm In another thread Wolfman spoke of the Raelian belief that if we build an embassy for them, aliens will come and give us eternal life. That got me thinking of other times when a group or movement said, "If we can only accomplish 'blah', then we will obtain 'bleh'", where "blah" is something that will probably never be accomplished, thus guaranteeing that the existence of "bleh", the ultimate revelation or prize, will never actually be tested. How about, "If only we could devise/you would only agree to... a Proper Test of my paranormal skills, I would be vindicated." Not exactly a group unless you want to count paranormal claimants as a group...

15th September 2010, 03:36 PM	#23
Hellbound Abiogenic Spongiform Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a handbasket Posts: 8,942	Originally Posted by RobRoy Not to the general public. Establishing an Us vs. Them (or rather U.S. vs Everyone Else) is never easier than dividing the line along hellbound, godless atheists and morally-straight, good guys who pray every Sunday. Dude! I got my own category!

15th September 2010, 05:50 PM	#24
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,797	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 True, but about the same as the Raelians. For a more concrete example, we can use Mark 16:17-18: And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won't hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed. In this case, one supposes that no one has believed enough or invoked his name properly since there is no evidence that such things every happened or are possible. Never say never. Snake handling or serpent handling is a religious ritual in a small number of Pentecostal churches in the U.S., usually characterized as rural and Holiness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling They also drink poison.

15th September 2010, 10:07 PM	#25
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Loveland, CO, USA Posts: 1,628	Originally Posted by tsig Never say never. Snake handling or serpent handling is a religious ritual in a small number of Pentecostal churches in the U.S., usually characterized as rural and Holiness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling They also drink poison. While true, it is not evidential. We also have lots of faith healers performing laying of hands and supposedly curing the sick. But is it for real or something else? Handling snakes is just a matter of practice and caution (even veteran snake handlers 'occasionally' get bitten). Drinking poison, I'd have to know what it is, how much, and what they do afterward.
	Last edited by kuroyume0161; 15th September 2010 at 10:08 PM.

15th September 2010, 10:14 PM	#26
Maia Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1,261	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 While true, it is not evidential. We also have lots of faith healers performing laying of hands and supposedly curing the sick. But is it for real or something else? Handling snakes is just a matter of practice and caution (even veteran snake handlers 'occasionally' get bitten). Drinking poison, I'd have to know what it is, how much, and what they do afterward. There's THAT one again!! If I knew how to link to all the posts I've ever done about the Church of God in Christ With Signs Following, I would. They do drink arsenic as well as handling snakes; I've seen it done on film. Blowtorches and sticking forks in electric sockets are also occasionally involved (this never has seemed very Biblical to me...) Some people have definitely been bitten by snakes. I don't know about the arsenic. However, it's possible to consume very small amounts without being harmed. Now, speaking of "if x would only happen, then y could occur..." one example I read a few days ago basically consisted of the argument that if aliens would only visit earth right now, we'd be able to test the supposition that a specific situation would be enough to scare them off and give up on the idea of colonizing the human race. Apparently, this would consist of everyone connected with Jersey Shore, because the aliens would be terrified that they'd be infected with malignant stupidity and would take off at warp speed.
	__________________ Satan, aka Precious the Cat-- the Comic! Come and read at Stripgenerator!

16th September 2010, 07:27 AM	#27
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	There’s a whole slew of LDS prophecies that failed outright, but were later rendered conditional. Smith, when confronted with the prophecy of selling his BoM copyright to Canada made the awesome claim that some revelations come from God, some from men and some from the devil. Not certain what good a prophet of God is if he can’t sort out which voices in his head have a classical music soundtrack and which have Bauhaus.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us.

16th September 2010, 07:40 AM	#28
grayman Happy-go-lucky Heretic Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Casa del Whacko Posts: 6,142	I am reminded of the joke: "Why do you keep snapping your fingers?" "Because it keeps the lions away." "But there are no lions in this country." "See? It works!"
	__________________ Stupidity is a condition. Ignorance is a choice. - Wiley All great truths begin as blasphemies. - George Bernard Shaw God is evil. As soon as you accept that, it all makes sense. - Sledge

16th September 2010, 07:49 AM	#29
Weak Kitten Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lost and lonely...will you be my friend? Posts: 1,731	It seems like the trump card of all unobtainable conditions is the "proper amount of faith". Since it is impossible to prove or disprove what is going on "deep within your soul" it is easy to claim that whoever didn't get their prayer answered or died of snakebite or whatever were not truly faithful and had hidden doubts.

16th September 2010, 07:52 AM	#30
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by Weak Kitten It seems like the trump card of all unobtainable conditions is the "proper amount of faith". Since it is impossible to prove or disprove what is going on "deep within your soul" it is easy to claim that whoever didn't get their prayer answered or died of snakebite or whatever were not truly faithful and had hidden doubts. Or didn't get the children they desperately wanted, or the guy/girl of their dreams, or the job, etc. ad nauseum. The requirements of faith are apparently much more demanding for some.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us.

16th September 2010, 11:01 AM	#31
Dunstan Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sunnyvale Trailer Park Posts: 4,292	Originally Posted by Maia I don't know about the arsenic. However, it's possible to consume very small amounts without being harmed. Well, I've spent the last several years building up an immunity to iocane powder....

16th September 2010, 11:17 AM	#32
RobRoy Not A Mormon Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: In the sandbox Posts: 12,141	Originally Posted by Dunstan Well, I've spent the last several years building up an immunity to iocane powder.... Iocane! I'd stake my life on it.
	__________________ Logic is what man stoops to when absurdity and surrealism has failed. It's shameful. – whatthebutlersaw Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim. All your base are belong to us.