single bullet theory is not true says Soily

[tsig]

The single bullet theory was the absolute essence of the Warren commission, without it they believed there had to be more than one gunman. The only evidence ever offered by the warren commission for the single bullet theory was essentially the endorsment of the reputable and respected men on the committee that it was likely. That 3 of those men and the president of the united states actually did not believe the single bullet theory and kept that from the American people was a cover-up pure and simple.

And the single bullet theory is not true, thats a fact not an opinion and I'll happily prove it if you want, although this is probably not the right thread.

The above was a post by Soily since he has expressed his willingness to prove it I have provided a thread for him.

[Soily]

Thanks very much!

This one is really easy. There's a whole list of reasons why it's false which we can go through if you want but they're largely irrelevant because of one simple fact. There is no single bullet theory because there is no single bullet. The bullet found at parkland hospital was absolutely not the same bullet entered into evidence as CE399. If anyone has proof it was I'd contact the authorities as you have a major new breakthrough on your hands!

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by Soily

Thanks very much!

This one is really easy. There's a whole list of reasons why it's false which we can go through if you want but they're largely irrelevant because of one simple fact. There is no single bullet theory because there is no single bullet. The bullet found at parkland hospital was absolutely not the same bullet entered into evidence as CE399. If anyone has proof it was I'd contact the authorities as you have a major new breakthrough on your hands!

So we can take it that you have no concrete proof,only questions and speculation?

[The Platypus]

Anyone who blatantly states "it's a fact", or uses words like "fact" repeatedly, without backing it up, is making a sales pitch and trying to be convincing without actually meeting their burden of proof...

[FreshHat]

Originally Posted by tsig

The above was a post by Soily since he has expressed his willingness to prove it I have provided a thread for him.

[leslie neilson mode] Yes, you did... and don't call him Soily.[/leslie neilson mode]

[Soily]

I was hoping someone would post the proof that CE399 was found at parkland, but i'm not holding my breathe.

Neither the 3 civilians who found the bullet at parkland or the 2 secret service agents they gave it could ever identify CE399 as the bullet they found. Nathan Pool, Darrel Tomlinson and OP wright, the men who actually found the bullet all seperetly described the bullet they found as a point nose hunting round, not CE399. The only evidence in existence that CE399 was the bullet found at parkland was an FBI memo presented to the Warren Commission describing a interview by FBI agent Bardwell Odum of Wright and Tomlinson where they identified the bullet as CE399. Unfortently, Odum himself has confirmed that this meeting never happened, it was fabricated by Hoover. There is not the slightest shred of evidence CE399 was the bullet found at parkland, all the available evidence we have shows it was a point nosed hunting round which could not have been fired by Oswald. There are a whole list of corroborating points that CE399 was never fired at Kennedy which we can go through too, but the main point is the legendary magic bullet is not only magic but non existent.

[Soily]

Originally Posted by The Platypus

Anyone who blatantly states "it's a fact", or uses words like "fact" repeatedly, without backing it up, is making a sales pitch and trying to be convincing without actually meeting their burden of proof...

Well of these 2 statements:
1 Dogs definitely exist
2 Santa Clause definitely doesn't exist

Only 1 of them is actually a fact, but most reasonable people would regard them both as true. The magic bullet is like Santa, there's no evidence it exists and plenty of evidence it doesn't but of course you can't definitively proof it.

[riptowtan]

"all the available evidence we have shows it was a point nosed hunting round which could not have been fired by Oswald."
Where is this evidence? Are you claiming that they found a bullet fired from a completely different gun? How dumb could the conspirators be?
You should read through Mcadam's site, or check out Case Closed by Gerald Posner. The conspiracy arguments are all logically flawed and lacking positive evidence.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm
From the site:

"Anybody who wants to posit that CE 399 was faked and planted by conspirators needs to supply plausible answers to all of the following questions. Why did the conspirators . . .

1. Plant it in a location where it could easily have been lost?
2. Plant a bullet that was only "slightly" damaged if its role was to have passed through at least the President? Why not shoot up some livestock and get a bullet a bit more mangled?
3. Plant it before it could have been known how many other bullets would be recovered? How could they have known that CE 399 would not be the "one bullet too many" that would blow the whole plot?
4. Plant the bullet so it was found before it was known how much lead was in JFK's neck/upper back? What if a big chunk of lead was found in JFK's neck or upper back, a chunk too big to have come from CE 399? "

[The Platypus]

Originally Posted by Soily

I was hoping someone would post the proof that CE399 was found at parkland, but i'm not holding my breathe.

Neither the 3 civilians who found the bullet at parkland or the 2 secret service agents they gave it could ever identify CE399 as the bullet they found. Nathan Pool, Darrel Tomlinson and OP wright, the men who actually found the bullet all seperetly described the bullet they found as a point nose hunting round, not CE399. The only evidence in existence that CE399 was the bullet found at parkland was an FBI memo presented to the Warren Commission describing a interview by FBI agent Bardwell Odum of Wright and Tomlinson where they identified the bullet as CE399. Unfortently, Odum himself has confirmed that this meeting never happened, it was fabricated by Hoover. There is not the slightest shred of evidence CE399 was the bullet found at parkland, all the available evidence we have shows it was a point nosed hunting round which could not have been fired by Oswald. There are a whole list of corroborating points that CE399 was never fired at Kennedy which we can go through too, but the main point is the legendary magic bullet is not only magic but non existent.

So you, like many CTers i've encountered, think that people, when asked to recall something they experienced during a traumatic situation, never ever make mistakes when asked to describe what they remember?

Hate to bust your bubble, but they simply could have been mistaken. It's not a big secret these days that peoples recollections and witnesses perceptions are more often flawed than not, especially when the experience was stressful and chaotic or happened very quickly.

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by Soily

Originally Posted by The Platypus

Anyone who blatantly states "it's a fact", or uses words like "fact" repeatedly, without backing it up, is making a sales pitch and trying to be convincing without actually meeting their burden of proof...

Well of these 2 statements:
1 Dogs definitely exist
2 Santa Clause definitely doesn't exist

Only 1 of them is actually a fact, but most reasonable people would regard them both as true. The magic bullet is like Santa, there's no evidence it exists and plenty of evidence it doesn't but of course you can't definitively proof it.

The highlighted portion appears to have gone over your head. Your statements 1 and 2 do not contain the word "fact."

[The Platypus]

Originally Posted by Soily

Well of these 2 statements:
1 Dogs definitely exist
2 Santa Clause definitely doesn't exist

Only 1 of them is actually a fact, but most reasonable people would regard them both as true. The magic bullet is like Santa, there's no evidence it exists and plenty of evidence it doesn't but of course you can't definitively proof it.

Trying another sales pitch technique isn't very convincing and just hurt your credibility even more...

[Soily]

Originally Posted by The Platypus

So you, like many CTers i've encountered, think that people, when asked to recall something they experienced during a traumatic situation, never ever make mistakes when asked to describe what they remember?

Hate to bust your bubble, but they simply could have been mistaken. It's not a big secret these days that peoples recollections and witnesses perceptions are more often flawed than not, especially when the experience was stressful and chaotic or happened very quickly.

Sorry to burst your bubble but that highly contensious statement doesn't magically make evidence that CE399 was the parkland bullet appear out of the ether. There is no evidence CE399 was the Parkland bullet, do you understand what that means? Not even circumstantial evidence. And all the physically evidence also rules out CE399 been that bullet. The single bullet theory is an entirely evidence free fantasy that is utterly unbelievable on every single level. It's a sort of intellectual benchmark for me, if you believe the SBT you will literally believe anything.

[The Platypus]

Originally Posted by Soily

Sorry to burst your bubble but that highly contensious statement doesn't magically make evidence that CE399 was the parkland bullet appear out of the ether. There is no evidence CE399 was the Parkland bullet, do you understand what that means? Not even circumstantial evidence. And all the physically evidence also rules out CE399 been that bullet. The single bullet theory is an entirely evidence free fantasy that is utterly unbelievable on every single level. It's a sort of intellectual benchmark for me, if you believe the SBT you will literally believe anything.

Wow, that's quite the emotional investment you attach to this... which again doesn't help your credibility and is also quite bizarre...

You can insist on your opinion all you want, but that's all you have shown is your opinion and you are just using weak tricks to try and sell it...

[Soily]

Originally Posted by The Platypus

Wow, that's quite the emotional investment you attach to this... which again doesn't help your credibility and is also quite bizarre...

You can insist on your opinion all you want, but that's all you have shown is your opinion and you are just using weak tricks to try and sell it...

Again you just huff and bluster. Care to actually address the issues? Do you support the sbt? And if so on what evidence?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Originally Posted by tsig

The single bullet theory was the absolute essence of the Warren commission, without it they believed there had to be more than one gunman. The only evidence ever offered by the warren commission for the single bullet theory was essentially the endorsment of the reputable and respected men on the committee that it was likely. That 3 of those men and the president of the united states actually did not believe the single bullet theory and kept that from the American people was a cover-up pure and simple.

And the single bullet theory is not true, thats a fact not an opinion and I'll happily prove it if you want, although this is probably not the right thread.

The above was a post by Soily since he has expressed his willingness to prove it I have provided a thread for him.

He doesn't repeat the tired false claim that the recovered bullet was "pristine", does he?

[carlitos]

I could understand it if Soily couldn't get through all of Bugliosi's book and all of the supporting documentation included, but what about Posner's Case Closed? It's only 600 pages or so, and you can get a used paperback copy for cheap.

[CurtC]

Well, all the wounds line up to have originated somewhere high in the southeast corner of the Book Depository building, so if the CE399 bullet wasn't the actual item, and another one was, you're still left with a slightly different single bullet theory with Oswald as the source.

[The Platypus]

Originally Posted by Soily

Again you just huff and bluster. Care to actually address the issues? Do you support the sbt? And if so on what evidence?

I not claiming support of anything nor do i need evidence, i simply am listening to what you have given which is only your opinion of the story and i not convinced by what you are trying to push by on just your say so.

Cope. nobody is obligated to just take your word for anything you claim, if you can't back yourself up with anything more then song and dance sales pitches that's your problem. You can say "it's a fact" and try to pigeon hole people into your version of reality all you want with lame statements like "if you believe the SBT you will literally believe anything", and it may work for you on some people, but that doesn't work on everyone...

[Soily]

Originally Posted by carlitos

I could understand it if Soily couldn't get through all of Bugliosi's book and all of the supporting documentation included, but what about Posner's Case Closed? It's only 600 pages or so, and you can get a used paperback copy for cheap.

Sounds like you haven't read bugliosi's epic book yourself, since even he trashes case closed in it.

[riptowtan]

Originally Posted by Soily

Sounds like you haven't read bugliosi's epic book yourself, since even he trashes case closed in it.

Bugliosi does not trash Cased Closed. He says that Posner made some minor omissions and distortions but that overall it's a good book. He also agrees with Posner's conclusion, which is that Oswald did it alone. The site I linked before goes over the chain of evidence for the bullet(CE399). Buglosi does a much better job in his book "Reclaiming History", which I am currently reading. Again this whole switched bullet claim has a hidden premise. The conspirators would be both incredibly sneaky and competent but also incomprehensibly stupid at the same time. How is this possible? If someone were to plan a conspiracy to kill Kennedy and to blame it all on Oswald, why use different guns, or too many bullets? This would blow their cover and risk themselves to jail time.

[Soily]

Originally Posted by CurtC

Well, all the wounds line up to have originated somewhere high in the southeast corner of the Book Depository building, so if the CE399 bullet wasn't the actual item, and another one was, you're still left with a slightly different single bullet theory with Oswald as the source.

And pray tell how do you know that? The warren commission fraudulently moved the wound in kennedy's back down 3 inches from the actual position of the wound and still couldn't get it to line up. Just look at the pictures of spectre recreating it, e wounds are in the wrong position and it still doesnt line up! And please don't quote Dale Myer's hilarious 3d cartoon as proof. Not only is it completely absurd to think you can extract sufficiently accurate 3d information from an incredibly grainy 40 year old cine film, but he uses every trick in the book to make it fit the preconceived notion of spectres sbt, including lying about how far in Connelly was to having jfk lean forward to a degree he demonstrably never is in the Zapruder film. If CE399 was the bullet passed through the bodies of 2 men 4 times, how come it didn't have 1 single microscopic piece of blood, human tissue of clothes fibres on it? How come the Warren commissions own ballistics experts did 100s of test firings of identical ammunition to CE399 was an identical rifle into cadavers and animal carcasses and on every single occasion the bullets were massively more deformed than CE399?

But as I said, the main point is there is no evidence CE399 was the bullet from parkland. So how can you have a theory when you haven't got a bullet?

If the sbt if now a different bullet, where is it? According to the theory, the bullet ended up in connoleys thigh, so where is it? Where did it go? All 3 of the witnesses who found the bullet at parkland seperetly described it as point nosed, how come by the time the WC get it its changed shape and type?

The whole point here is we only have 1 piece of known evidence about the origins of the bullet from parkland, and that's the witness statements that all describe it as point nosed. That's it.

[Soily]

Originally Posted by riptowtan

Bugliosi does not trash Cased Closed. He says that Posner made some minor omissions and distortions but that overall it's a good book. He also agrees with Posner's conclusion, which is that Oswald did it alone. The site I linked before goes over the chain of evidence for the bullet(CE399). Buglosi does a much better job in his book "Reclaiming History", which I am currently reading. Again this whole switched bullet claim has a hidden premise. The conspirators would be both incredibly sneaky and competent but also incomprehensibly stupid at the same time. How is this possible? If someone were to plan a conspiracy to kill Kennedy and to blame it all on Oswald, why use different guns, or too many bullets? This would blow their cover and risk themselves to jail time.

The chain of evidence? See whilst bugliosi just sits in his office regurgating the work of others, some people actually go out and do their own research. John hunt for instance, actually went to the national archives with a magnifying glass and studied CE399, taking close up photos from every angle. One of the key chains in the evidence chain, Elmer Todd said he put his initials on the bullet when he had it in his possession. Yet his initials are not on ce399. Buggy oddly fails to mention this in his epic doorstop. Where's the bullet Elmer Todd initialed? In fact it's even worse than that. None of the three FBI agents who handle the bullet on it's way from parkland to the FBI lab have their initials on CE399. None of the FBI agents who handle the bullet that day can identify it as CE399. In fact nobody ever could.

You genuinely have nothing, absolutely nothing to back up the fantasy of the sbt.

[riptowtan]

Originally Posted by Soily

And pray tell how do you know that? The warren commission fraudulently moved the wound in kennedy's back down 3 inches from the actual position of the wound and still couldn't get it to line up.

This is because his jacket was bunched up. There are some pretty clear photos in Bugliosi's book that demostrate this is true.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bunched.htm

Originally Posted by Soily

And please don't quote Dale Myer's hilarious 3d cartoon as proof. Not only is it completely absurd to think you can extract sufficiently accurate 3d information from an incredibly grainy 40 year old cine film, but he uses every trick in the book to make it fit the preconceived notion of spectres sbt, including lying about how far in Connelly was to having jfk lean forward to a degree he demonstrably never is in the Zapruder film.

Have you tried to make a computer model refuting the theory? Why hasn't any of the conspiracy researchers? But how about an actual experiment?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13wfsdACktk

An important point to think about that in my opinion makes the multiple gunmen hypothesis untenable is that if you accept Kennedy got shot in the back (which all evidence indicates this is true), it follows that the bullet went through into Connally. Where else would it go? Did it zig zag off to the left like Cyril Wecht has suggested? It now seems that the conspiracy theorists have an indefensible magic bullet theory.

Originally Posted by Soily

If CE399 was the bullet passed through the bodies of 2 men 4 times, how come it didn't have 1 single microscopic piece of blood, human tissue of clothes fibres on it? How come the Warren commissions own ballistics experts did 100s of test firings of identical ammunition to CE399 was an identical rifle into cadavers and animal carcasses and on every single occasion the bullets were massively more deformed than CE399?

Again a little bit of logic should clear this up. If the whole investigation was fraudulent why didn't they fake the ballistic tests?? The CE399 bullet was tested with neutron activation analysis to find that it was consistent with the metal fragments found in Connally. The bullets have all been confirmed to be from Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association
fired a bullet into a human cadaver's wrist. This is what the bullet looked like.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bullet1.jpg

Originally Posted by Soily

But as I said, the main point is there is no evidence CE399 was the bullet from parkland. So how can you have a theory when you haven't got a bullet?

But we do have the bullet. I've shown you a link that goes over the chain of evidence. CE399 is the bullet that killed Kennedy.

Originally Posted by Soily

The whole point here is we only have 1 piece of known evidence about the origins of the bullet from parkland, and that's the witness statements that all describe it as point nosed. That's it.

Flat out false. Read Buglisosi's chapter on the Magic Bullet.

[riptowtan]

Originally Posted by Soily

The chain of evidence? See whilst bugliosi just sits in his office regurgating the work of others, some people actually go out and do their own research. John hunt for instance, actually went to the national archives with a magnifying glass and studied CE399, taking close up photos from every angle. One of the key chains in the evidence chain, Elmer Todd said he put his initials on the bullet when he had it in his possession. Yet his initials are not on ce399. Buggy oddly fails to mention this in his epic doorstop. Where's the bullet Elmer Todd initialed?

Elmer Todd identified the bullet with his initials present in 1964. Are you calling him a liar? His initials probably would have been very faint even back then due to the fact that he is trying to write his name on a bullet with a pen. It's possible that the ink wore off after 50 years. Here are some close ups of the bullet. I can't make out any initials, but the fact of the matter is that Elmer Todd identified it in 1964.
http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/phanto...s/image005.jpg

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by riptowtan

Elmer Todd identified the bullet with his initials present in 1964. Are you calling him a liar?

False Dilemma^WP

[Soily]

Originally Posted by riptowtan

This is because his jacket was bunched up.

An important point to think about that in my opinion makes the multiple gunmen hypothesis untenable is that if you accept Kennedy got shot in the back (which all evidence indicates this is true), it follows that the bullet went through into Connally. Where else would it go? Did it zig zag off to the left like Cyril Wecht has suggested? It now seems that the conspiracy theorists have an indefensible magic bullet theory.

Since we don't have the first clue what the shooting sequence actually was beyond the headshot, that's all speculation. Even the lone nuts have a hundred different variations, of course when we're talking about magic bullets, the LN crowd have 2 don't they? The first bullet, which Oswald had the most time to set up, missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air, never to be seen again.

Originally Posted by riptowtan

Again a little bit of logic should clear this up. If the whole investigation was fraudulent why didn't they fake the ballistic tests?? The CE399 bullet was tested with neutron activation analysis to find that it was consistent with the metal fragments found in Connally. The bullets have all been confirmed to be from Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Wrong. The application of neutron activation analysis in this case (and others) has been discredited I'm afraid. See the papers by Randich and Grant. I'm sure Bugliosi was aware of but was, as is so often guilty by omission. You still have absolutely nothing to link the CE399 to the bullet at parkland or the hypothetical magic bullet.

Originally Posted by riptowtan

Dr. Martin Fackler, President of the International Wound Ballistics Association
fired a bullet into a human cadaver's wrist. This is what the bullet looked like.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bullet1.jpg

Well Josepth Dolce, the warren commissions own expert's tests conclusively show otherwise.

Originally Posted by riptowtan

But we do have the bullet. I've shown you a link that goes over the chain of evidence. CE399 is the bullet that killed Kennedy.

That's a fib. See my previous post, read John Hunt's article. Read Gary Aguilar's article. You and Bugliosi are just plain wrong on this one. You in fact have no chain of evidence for CE399 at all. No witness evidence, no documentary evidence, no physical evidence. Just a wild, completely evidence free fantasy.

[Soily]

Originally Posted by riptowtan

Elmer Todd identified the bullet with his initials present in 1964. Are you calling him a liar? His initials probably would have been very faint even back then due to the fact that he is trying to write his name on a bullet with a pen. It's possible that the ink wore off after 50 years. Here are some close ups of the bullet. I can't make out any initials, but the fact of the matter is that Elmer Todd identified it in 1964.
http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/phanto...s/image005.jpg

They didn't use pens, they scratched the initials on. The other FBi agents who had the bullet later have clearly identifiable initials. His aren't there. No FBI agent who had the bullet from Parkland on the 22nd ever identified CE399 as the bullet they saw.

[carlitos]

Quote:

The first bullet, which Oswald had the most time to set up, missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air, never to be seen again.

False dilemma. That's 1:1 for you guys.

There really isn't any need for the hyperbole. Just present evidence for your assertions.

[Soily]

That's not my assertion, that's the Warren commission and lone nuts assertion. They say oswald's first shot, the one he had the most time to set up, missed the car, even when it was at it's closest to him, by an absolutely huge margin, ricocheted on a curb and hit james tague. Check the photographs to see how big a miss this is. Oddly, the next two shots, which he had just a few seconds to make, were really accurate.

[carlitos]

Originally Posted by Soily

That's not my assertion, that's the Warren commission and lone nuts assertion. They say oswald's first shot, the one he had the most time to set up, missed the car, even when it was at it's closest to him, by an absolutely huge margin, ricocheted on a curb and hit james tague. Check the photographs to see how big a miss this is. Oddly, the next two shots, which he had just a few seconds to make, were really accurate.

OK, so they didn't claim it "missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air." That's your claim, right? Will you be presenting evidence to this effect?

[Soily]

Originally Posted by carlitos

OK, so they didn't claim it "missed by an entire city block and disappeared into thin air." That's your claim, right? Will you be presenting evidence to this effect?

That's what the Warren commission proposed yes, although of course it was not a direct quote as it was not in their interests to phrase it in that way. Maybe you should read up on the case a little bit?

[carlitos]

I'm not at all interested in your imagined reasons for why the Warren Commission phrased something in a certain way.

[Gawdzilla]

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

[riptowtan]

Originally Posted by Soily

That's not my assertion, that's the Warren commission and lone nuts assertion. They say oswald's first shot, the one he had the most time to set up, missed the car, even when it was at it's closest to him, by an absolutely huge margin, ricocheted on a curb and hit james tague. Check the photographs to see how big a miss this is. Oddly, the next two shots, which he had just a few seconds to make, were really accurate.

The bullet probably was deflected by a tree branch. This would explain why is missed by such a huge margin.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tague.htm

I'll have to get back to you about the neutron activation analysis. I'm not too familiar with how it works or how reliable it is.

Originally Posted by Soily

Since we don't have the first clue what the shooting sequence actually was beyond the headshot, that's all speculation. Even the lone nuts have a hundred different variations, of course when we're talking about magic bullets, the LN crowd have 2 don't they?

How is it speculation? We can infer that the second bullet hit JFK in the back and then exited his throat, based off of the zapruder film and autopsy reports. If you grant this as being true, the whole conspiracy theory breaks down. Where did the "magic bullet" go after it hit JFK in the back?

Originally Posted by Soily

They didn't use pens, they scratched the initials on. The other FBi agents who had the bullet later have clearly identifiable initials. His aren't there. No FBI agent who had the bullet from Parkland on the 22nd ever identified CE399 as the bullet they saw.

Thanks for the correction.

John Hunt never actually went to the archives to handle the bullet himself. It says so in his own article. He posted pictures from this website
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/inde...-_Magic_Bullet

"The question for me became, is Todd's mark on the CE-399
bullet? To answer that question, I put together an illustration using
photographs of CE-399. I was able to track the entire surface of the
bullet using four of NARA's preservation photos." -- John Hunt

Couldn't the reason why we can't see the initials be that the picture is just not clear enough to see them?

My main problem with this whole switched bullet claim, is that it is logically absurd. Why would they plant a phony bullet when they could end up with too many bullets, exposing the plot? The FBI agents said that the bullet "appeared to be the same", but did not positively identify it. Better yet, knowing that Todd and other marked the bullet, why not get them in on the vast conspiracy as well? And we're still left with the problem that CE399 was fired from Oswald's rife to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Another reason why I think CE399 is the bullet that hit both Kennedy and Connally.

"There is another piece of circumstantial evidence pointing to
the stretcher bullet as the bullet that passed through Kennedy's and
Connally's bodies. If it weren't, then what happened to that bullet,
which, its velocity nearly spent, barely penetrated the governor's
left thigh? Since we know that the FBI and Secret Service scoured the
limousine for evidence and even found several small bullet fragments,
surely they would have found the bullet, inside the limousine, that
dropped from the governor's left thigh. The fact that no such bullet was found in the presidential limousine is fairly strong circumstantial evidence that that bullet is the same one found on the governor's stretcher."
from "Reclaiming History"

[riptowtan]

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

I agree. I think Bugliosi said it best. First there is hair splitting, then there are the splitting of the split hairs.

[riptowtan]

Originally Posted by carlitos

False Dilemma^WP

Darn, you got me! I should have phrased it differently.

[Gawdzilla]

Originally Posted by riptowtan

I agree. I think Bugliosi said it best. First there is hair splitting, then there are the splitting of the split hairs.

What else do we expect from a hair-brained idea?

[Dave Rogers]

Originally Posted by Soily

Thanks very much!

This one is really easy. There's a whole list of reasons why it's false which we can go through if you want but they're largely irrelevant because of one simple fact. There is no single bullet theory because there is no single bullet. The bullet found at parkland hospital was absolutely not the same bullet entered into evidence as CE399. If anyone has proof it was I'd contact the authorities as you have a major new breakthrough on your hands!

Let's express this as a line of reasoning.

P1: CE399 was not the bullet that injured Kennedy and Connally.

C: There was no single bullet that injured Kennedy and Connally.

Your conclusion wouldn't follow from your premise even if your premise were established (which it isn't).

Would you like to try that again, but coherently?

Dave

[Soily]

Originally Posted by riptowtan

The bullet probably was deflected by a tree branch. This would explain why is missed by such a huge margin.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tague.htm

And the evidence for that is...? Ohh that's right, absolutely nothing. Talk about double standards.

Originally Posted by riptowtan

How is it speculation? We can infer that the second bullet hit JFK in the back and then exited his throat, based off of the zapruder film and autopsy reports. If you grant this as being true, the whole conspiracy theory breaks down. Where did the "magic bullet" go after it hit JFK in the back

Err no we can't infer that at all. I don't really want to get into the sad saga of the autopsy and the ever changing wounds because that could be another dozen threads in itself, but there's good reason to believe the back wound was shallow. And regardless of what fantasists like myers say, there's absolutely nothing obvious in the zapruder film that proves they were hit by the same bullet. Get a thousand different people and they'll see a thousand different things. Connolley and his wife both maintained till the end of their days they were hit by a different bullet. And the hilarious 'scientific' trajectory analysis of myers and the rest of them disproves their theory own anyway , they have to keep shifting the wounds about or putting Kennedy in positions he never is. The whole idea you can actually draw a line back from a wound with any accuracy, based on a 40 year old grainy, low resolution cine film is utterly absurd. Any one measurement would only have to be a fraction out for a line then drawn back 200 yards to be massively out. And with these recreations every measurement will be at least a fraction out. It's absolutely pseudo science, but people seem to be impressed because if it's a 3d computer simulation it must somehow have space age accuracy. Well sorry, but it's only as good as the information entered into it. And besides that, I can think of at least one of these recreations, for the discovery channel documentary the KGB jfk files which shows the line going back to the daltek. Another one from last year shows the wound exiting in kennedys chest!

Originally Posted by riptowtan

John Hunt never actually went to the archives to handle the bullet himself. It says so in his own article. He posted pictures from this website
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/inde...-_Magic_Bullet

"The question for me became, is Todd's mark on the CE-399
bullet? To answer that question, I put together an illustration using
photographs of CE-399. I was able to track the entire surface of the
bullet using four of NARA's preservation photos." -- John Hunt

Couldn't the reason why we can't see the initials be that the picture is just not clear enough to see them?

I was under the impression he'd examined it himself with a magnifying glass, he certainly went to the national archives on many occasions to study the evidence. Seems like he didn't take the photos but used the nara preservation photos, which are incidentally available in bigger versions than he uses for illustration in his piece. I agree that initials could have somehow worn off, but since the others didn't, and they were made within days of each other, it's hard to think why.

Originally Posted by riptowtan

My main problem with this whole switched bullet claim, is that it is logically absurd. Why would they plant a phony bullet when they could end up with too many bullets, exposing the plot? The FBI agents said that the bullet "appeared to be the same", but did not positively identify it. Better yet, knowing that Todd and other marked the bullet, why not get them in on the vast conspiracy as well? And we're still left with the problem that CE399 was fired from Oswald's rife to the exclusion of all other weapons.

I'm not sure you fully appreciate what we're saying. The bullet wasn't planted. A bullet was found at parkland, and the only evidence we have in existence about that bullet was that it was a point nosed hunting round. This bullet was taken to the FBI where at some point it became apparent that it could not have been fired by Oswald. At which point that bullet was deep sixed and replaced with a bullet fired from Oswald's rifle at some later point. That bullet was then shown to the witneses, none of whom could identity it, although a fraudulent memo from the FBI gives the impression they did. http://www.history-matters.com/essay...oreMagical.htm
[/quote]

Another reason why I think CE399 is the bullet that hit both Kennedy and Connally.

"There is another piece of circumstantial evidence pointing to
the stretcher bullet as the bullet that passed through Kennedy's and
Connally's bodies. If it weren't, then what happened to that bullet,
which, its velocity nearly spent, barely penetrated the governor's
left thigh? Since we know that the FBI and Secret Service scoured the
limousine for evidence and even found several small bullet fragments,
surely they would have found the bullet, inside the limousine, that
dropped from the governor's left thigh. The fact that no such bullet was found in the presidential limousine is fairly strong circumstantial evidence that that bullet is the same one found on the governor's stretcher."
from "Reclaiming History"[/quote]
It's evidence of nothing. We have several missing bullets in this case. The first shot is missing. One of the tippet bullets is missing. Lots of missing evidence. And there is some pretty good evidence there was another bullet at parkland, both Henry Wade and governor connolly describe a bullet that fell out of his clothing in the emergency room, which a nurse put in her pocket. Bob Harris has a good video on YouTube that goes through this.

The other thing its important to understand about the sbt is it was not the FBI theory. The FBI had concluded their report and their shot sequence was entirely different, there was no sbt, jfk and connolly were struck by different bullets and CE399 fell out of JFKs back. If it wasn't for he inconvenient James Tague that would be the version you and macadams and bugliosi would be twisting and turning to defend today. The sbt theory was entirely a work of imagination from specter and his lawyers, to get them out of a terrible fix.

Other things you have to ask, if CE399 caused all those wounds, why was there no blood, human tissue, bone of cloth fragments on it?

And also regarding the NAA, a whole slew of new experts have come forward to descredit

Quote:

In May 2007, a second paper appeared reporting on a chemical, forensic and statistical analysis of bullets derived from the same batch as those supposedly used by Oswald. The authors, Cliff Spiegelman, professor of statistics at Texas A&M and an expert in bullet lead analysis, William A. Tobin, the FBI's former Chief Forensic Metallurgist, William D. James, research chemist with the Texas A&M Center for Chemical Characterization and Analysis, and Stuart Wexler, brought considerable expertise to their study. As with Randich and Grant, they also concluded that, "evidence used to rule out a second assassin is fundamentally flawed." They reported that, "many bullets within a box of Mannlicher-Carcano bullets have similar composition." Thus, it was not true, as Guinn had said, that such matches are extraordinarily rare

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/inde..._Oswalds_Guilt

[Soily]

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

Let's express this as a line of reasoning.

P1: CE399 was not the bullet that injured Kennedy and Connally.

C: There was no single bullet that injured Kennedy and Connally.

Your conclusion wouldn't follow from your premise even if your premise were established (which it isn't).

Would you like to try that again, but coherently?

Dave

Mmm if you want to provide the evidence CE399 was the bullet then please do and this thread would be over. My point is really simple so I'll repeat it again for the hard of understanding. There is no evidence CE399 was the bullet found at parkland. There is no evidence CE399 was fired at Kennedy.