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Achán hiNidráne · 25th September 2010, 09:27 PM

Blair Scott at American Atheist posted the following bit of sad family drama on the AA blog.

In my opinion, Scott did the right thing, standing up for his daughter's girlfriend. However, I'm not so sure he was right not to press the matter further. While I'm sure Scott thought that "Sarah" would have been forced to endure more abuse at her mother's hands if he pressed charges against her for menacing Rachel, Sarah's mother is still going to mistreat her daughter. She's going to be put through the evangelical wringer as her mother tries to "cure" her of "the gay." In the end, I fear that Sarah is going to end up miserable, or worse.

An example needs to be made. It's time that these Christian swine be made to pay the price for their homophobia, especially when it's directed toward their children.

Despite Scott's hopes, I don't think that Sarah's father is going to be much help here. After reading his account, it seems pretty clear to me who wears the penis in that family.

mactonite · 25th September 2010, 11:37 PM

Sarah's mother reminds me of the neighbor's dad in American Beauty where he concealed his homosexuality by hating it. Perhaps the raging mother in this story has some deep down lesbian feelings that only anger can mask.

Dancing David · 26th September 2010, 06:15 AM

Rage again a child is usually misplaced, latent homosexuality is not needed there are other more available causes, it is a one possibility.

Unfortunately lip service to ANCRA is all we have in the US, especially once a child is about the age of 12, religious abuse generally falls under the category of 'bad parenting' as opposed to 'abuse' although screaming for hours will generally qualify as legal 'abuse', it is very hard in today's under supported system to prosecute it.

The stupidity of people seems universally distributed throughout the universe as are the excuses for engaging in it.

westprog · 27th September 2010, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by mactonite

Sarah's mother reminds me of the neighbor's dad in American Beauty where he concealed his homosexuality by hating it. Perhaps the raging mother in this story has some deep down lesbian feelings that only anger can mask.

I've always found this kind of supposition deeply ironic. "X is behaving in a bigoted, anti-gay manner. The only possible explanation for such disgusting behaviour is that X must be gay. "

Isn't it actually possible that someone can be heterosexual and a bigot? We don't say "X hates black people. The only explanation is that X is really black."

I don't think you can have your cake and eat it. if you want to claim that being lesbian is normal, you can't use it as an explanation for aberrant behaviour.

Pup · 27th September 2010, 06:54 AM

Originally Posted by westprog

I've always found this kind of supposition deeply ironic. "X is behaving in a bigoted, anti-gay manner. The only possible explanation for such disgusting behaviour is that X must be gay. "

Isn't it actually possible that someone can be heterosexual and a bigot? We don't say "X hates black people. The only explanation is that X is really black."

I don't think you can have your cake and eat it. if you want to claim that being lesbian is normal, you can't use it as an explanation for aberrant behaviour.

I get what you're saying, and it is ironic because of course someone can be a heterosexual bigot and plenty of gay people are unprejudiced.

But I think the point is to blame it on society's condemnation of homosexuality, rather than homosexuality itself. In other words, if a person wasn't taught that homosexuality was bad, he or she wouldn't become frustrated and angry at having to hide/deny/control it in himself and therefore wouldn't lash out at others.

Oddly enough, from that viewpoint, the black example actually works, though in that case, it's the stereotypical negative traits attached to being black, rather than being black itself. If a white person is lazy, poor, stupid and low-class, he can make himself look "better" by furthering the stereotype that blacks are really the ones who are all those things and therefore should be kept below him.

It's a strange kind of jealousy, either way: "How come they get to be out (earn equal respect), when I'm just like them and I don't?" With homosexuality, the solution is removing the stigma so everyone does get to be open about their sexuality; with race, it's removing the stereotypes so lazy, stupid white people don't have a specific racial group to falsely target.

HansMustermann · 27th September 2010, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by westprog

I've always found this kind of supposition deeply ironic. "X is behaving in a bigoted, anti-gay manner. The only possible explanation for such disgusting behaviour is that X must be gay. "

Isn't it actually possible that someone can be heterosexual and a bigot? We don't say "X hates black people. The only explanation is that X is really black."

I don't think you can have your cake and eat it. if you want to claim that being lesbian is normal, you can't use it as an explanation for aberrant behaviour.

Which actually would matter if he were using that as an explanation for aberrant behaviour. But he's not. It's the trying to hide it part that is used as an explanation for aberrant behaviour.

And that isn't actually that hard to swallow at all. In fact, it's about par for the course for people trying to pretend they're something else, that they end up exaggerating in that direction to caricature extremes.

Now I don't think that _all_ cases fall in that category, but it certainly is a common failure mode in humans.

Checkmite · 27th September 2010, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Pup

But I think the point is to blame it on society's condemnation of homosexuality, rather than homosexuality itself. In other words, if a person wasn't taught that homosexuality was bad, he or she wouldn't become frustrated and angry at having to hide/deny/control it in himself and therefore wouldn't lash out at others.

Oddly enough, from that viewpoint, the black example actually works, though in that case, it's the stereotypical negative traits attached to being black, rather than being black itself. If a white person is lazy, poor, stupid and low-class, he can make himself look "better" by furthering the stereotype that blacks are really the ones who are all those things and therefore should be kept below him.

But this still doesn't work. Two girls in the OP's story both have lesbian feelings, and yet are exposed to the same condemnation of their feelings as the allegedly "self-hating-lesbian" mother. Yet they don't hate each other or condemn other lesbians.

It is certainly possible for a person to react in such a way, but there's no evidence that it's "common" and certainly no cause to even suggest it when there's absolutely no reason to believe it's the case. I could argue that the mother was just really overreacting because she was having a bad PMS day, justifying the suggestion with the truism that "sometimes women have really bad PMS days and they get vicious".

HansMustermann · 28th September 2010, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

But this still doesn't work. Two girls in the OP's story both have lesbian feelings, and yet are exposed to the same condemnation of their feelings as the allegedly "self-hating-lesbian" mother. Yet they don't hate each other or condemn other lesbians.

Except again, nobody is blaming the bigotry on being a lesbian. What is being blamed is the tendency of people to take it to ridiculous extremes when they try to pretend they're something or they're not something else.

Granted, that doesn't cover _all_ cases, but it does happen, and I do think it's way overused.

But at any rate, that's what's being blamed, not the homosexuality. I.e., whether those two girls are lesbian too, is pretty much irrelevant for the scope of the argument.

25th September 2010, 09:27 PM	#1
Achán hiNidráne Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Muskego, WI. Posts: 3,979	Christianity, Lesbian Teens, and Bigotry Blair Scott at American Atheist posted the following bit of sad family drama on the AA blog. In my opinion, Scott did the right thing, standing up for his daughter's girlfriend. However, I'm not so sure he was right not to press the matter further. While I'm sure Scott thought that "Sarah" would have been forced to endure more abuse at her mother's hands if he pressed charges against her for menacing Rachel, Sarah's mother is still going to mistreat her daughter. She's going to be put through the evangelical wringer as her mother tries to "cure" her of "the gay." In the end, I fear that Sarah is going to end up miserable, or worse. An example needs to be made. It's time that these Christian swine be made to pay the price for their homophobia, especially when it's directed toward their children. Despite Scott's hopes, I don't think that Sarah's father is going to be much help here. After reading his account, it seems pretty clear to me who wears the penis in that family.
	__________________ "As the Corpse Lord knows, men today are ill-trained--ignoble: naught but wet anuses dribbling childish terrors and superstitions! Thus is knowledge--history, science, the world of the ancients--lost, never to be regained!" --M.A.R. Barker, "The Man of Gold"

25th September 2010, 11:37 PM	#2
mactonite Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: 34.3° N 118.8° W Posts: 476	Sarah's mother reminds me of the neighbor's dad in American Beauty where he concealed his homosexuality by hating it. Perhaps the raging mother in this story has some deep down lesbian feelings that only anger can mask.
	__________________ Red Blue Violet Green

26th September 2010, 06:15 AM	#3
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,925	Rage again a child is usually misplaced, latent homosexuality is not needed there are other more available causes, it is a one possibility. Unfortunately lip service to ANCRA is all we have in the US, especially once a child is about the age of 12, religious abuse generally falls under the category of 'bad parenting' as opposed to 'abuse' although screaming for hours will generally qualify as legal 'abuse', it is very hard in today's under supported system to prosecute it. The stupidity of people seems universally distributed throughout the universe as are the excuses for engaging in it.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

27th September 2010, 05:27 AM	#4
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	Originally Posted by mactonite Sarah's mother reminds me of the neighbor's dad in American Beauty where he concealed his homosexuality by hating it. Perhaps the raging mother in this story has some deep down lesbian feelings that only anger can mask. I've always found this kind of supposition deeply ironic. "X is behaving in a bigoted, anti-gay manner. The only possible explanation for such disgusting behaviour is that X must be gay. " Isn't it actually possible that someone can be heterosexual and a bigot? We don't say "X hates black people. The only explanation is that X is really black." I don't think you can have your cake and eat it. if you want to claim that being lesbian is normal, you can't use it as an explanation for aberrant behaviour.
westprog Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,928	__________________ Dreary whiner, who gradually outwore his welcome, before blowing it entirely.

27th September 2010, 06:54 AM	#5
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,626	Originally Posted by westprog I've always found this kind of supposition deeply ironic. "X is behaving in a bigoted, anti-gay manner. The only possible explanation for such disgusting behaviour is that X must be gay. " Isn't it actually possible that someone can be heterosexual and a bigot? We don't say "X hates black people. The only explanation is that X is really black." I don't think you can have your cake and eat it. if you want to claim that being lesbian is normal, you can't use it as an explanation for aberrant behaviour. I get what you're saying, and it is ironic because of course someone can be a heterosexual bigot and plenty of gay people are unprejudiced. But I think the point is to blame it on society's condemnation of homosexuality, rather than homosexuality itself. In other words, if a person wasn't taught that homosexuality was bad, he or she wouldn't become frustrated and angry at having to hide/deny/control it in himself and therefore wouldn't lash out at others. Oddly enough, from that viewpoint, the black example actually works, though in that case, it's the stereotypical negative traits attached to being black, rather than being black itself. If a white person is lazy, poor, stupid and low-class, he can make himself look "better" by furthering the stereotype that blacks are really the ones who are all those things and therefore should be kept below him. It's a strange kind of jealousy, either way: "How come they get to be out (earn equal respect), when I'm just like them and I don't?" With homosexuality, the solution is removing the stigma so everyone does get to be open about their sexuality; with race, it's removing the stereotypes so lazy, stupid white people don't have a specific racial group to falsely target.
Pup Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,626

27th September 2010, 07:00 AM	#6
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,903	Originally Posted by westprog I've always found this kind of supposition deeply ironic. "X is behaving in a bigoted, anti-gay manner. The only possible explanation for such disgusting behaviour is that X must be gay. " Isn't it actually possible that someone can be heterosexual and a bigot? We don't say "X hates black people. The only explanation is that X is really black." I don't think you can have your cake and eat it. if you want to claim that being lesbian is normal, you can't use it as an explanation for aberrant behaviour. Which actually would matter if he were using that as an explanation for aberrant behaviour. But he's not. It's the trying to hide it part that is used as an explanation for aberrant behaviour. And that isn't actually that hard to swallow at all. In fact, it's about par for the course for people trying to pretend they're something else, that they end up exaggerating in that direction to caricature extremes. Now I don't think that _all_ cases fall in that category, but it certainly is a common failure mode in humans.

27th September 2010, 08:58 PM	#7
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,978	Originally Posted by Pup But I think the point is to blame it on society's condemnation of homosexuality, rather than homosexuality itself. In other words, if a person wasn't taught that homosexuality was bad, he or she wouldn't become frustrated and angry at having to hide/deny/control it in himself and therefore wouldn't lash out at others. Oddly enough, from that viewpoint, the black example actually works, though in that case, it's the stereotypical negative traits attached to being black, rather than being black itself. If a white person is lazy, poor, stupid and low-class, he can make himself look "better" by furthering the stereotype that blacks are really the ones who are all those things and therefore should be kept below him. But this still doesn't work. Two girls in the OP's story both have lesbian feelings, and yet are exposed to the same condemnation of their feelings as the allegedly "self-hating-lesbian" mother. Yet they don't hate each other or condemn other lesbians. It is certainly possible for a person to react in such a way, but there's no evidence that it's "common" and certainly no cause to even suggest it when there's absolutely no reason to believe it's the case. I could argue that the mother was just really overreacting because she was having a bad PMS day, justifying the suggestion with the truism that "sometimes women have really bad PMS days and they get vicious".
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

28th September 2010, 03:38 AM	#8
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,903	Originally Posted by Checkmite But this still doesn't work. Two girls in the OP's story both have lesbian feelings, and yet are exposed to the same condemnation of their feelings as the allegedly "self-hating-lesbian" mother. Yet they don't hate each other or condemn other lesbians. Except again, nobody is blaming the bigotry on being a lesbian. What is being blamed is the tendency of people to take it to ridiculous extremes when they try to pretend they're something or they're not something else. Granted, that doesn't cover _all_ cases, but it does happen, and I do think it's way overused. But at any rate, that's what's being blamed, not the homosexuality. I.e., whether those two girls are lesbian too, is pretty much irrelevant for the scope of the argument.