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Thunder · 10th October 2010, 07:07 PM

why do some folks still think that being gay or lesbian is a choice?

most science shows that gays and lesbians realize they are this way early on in life, sometimes even before puberty.

and yet, lots of folks like to talk about it...as if its a choice.

a choice, that can be changed. ahhhh!!!!!!!!!!

now I get it.

Cleon · 10th October 2010, 07:14 PM

Who cares? What difference does it make one way or the other?

MG1962 · 10th October 2010, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Cleon

Who cares? What difference does it make one way or the other?

Exactly

Skeeve · 10th October 2010, 07:18 PM

You have two choices:

1. Accept it.

2. Deny it and live a lie.

There are many married men with families who are quite gay and closeted, if my experience is any indication.

bikerdruid · 10th October 2010, 07:19 PM

i sure as hell never choose to be queer.
it was the way i was born.

Thunder · 10th October 2010, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

i sure as hell never choose to be queer.
it was the way i was born.

can you tell us..at what age you realized that you liked boys and not girls?

bikerdruid · 10th October 2010, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

can you tell us..at what age you realized that you liked boys and not girls?

as long as i can remember.

Thunder · 10th October 2010, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

as long as i can remember.

fascinating.

though, I'm sure this is not the same for all gays.

Kinsey's scale of homosexuality suggests to me that those who are less "strongly" gay, probably realized their sexuality later in life.

or maybe I am wrong. who the hell knows. I prefer to just believe that all gays and lesbians are born that way.

though I do have my doubts about many lesbians, who seem to have "chosen" their sexuality after numerous bad experiences with men, or growing up with a crappy dad. you never hear about men going gay, after being dissed by one too many girlfriends.

Skeeve · 10th October 2010, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

though I do have my doubts about many lesbians, who seem to have chosen their lifestyle after numerous bad experiences with men, or growing up with a crappy dad.

Do you think maybe being lesbian may have influenced their relationship problems with men? Growing up in a society that looks down upon homosexuals forces some people to go along to get along.

Thunder · 10th October 2010, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Skeeve

Do you think maybe being lesbian may have influenced their relationship problems with men?

interesting theory. i should ask some of my lesbian friends about this.

bynmdsue · 10th October 2010, 08:06 PM

Homosexuality is no more than a depraved degeneracy.
It is the most horrible thing in the world to be.
That's why no queer chooses to be that way.
They cannot help themselves.
Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life.
They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature.

Skeeve · 10th October 2010, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Homosexuality is no more than a depraved degeneracy.
It is the most horrible thing in the world to be.
That's why no queer chooses to be that way.
They cannot help themselves.
Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life.
They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature.

Interesting.

Tell me more.

Thunder · 10th October 2010, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Homosexuality is no more than a depraved degeneracy.
It is the most horrible thing in the world to be.
That's why no queer chooses to be that way.
They cannot help themselves.
Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life.
They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature.

indeed. i think if homosexuality was a choice, there would be ZERO homosexuals on Earth.

could you imagine actually CHOSING to be gay, in the Muslim world?

in Eastern Europe?

talk about suicidal.

bikerdruid · 10th October 2010, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Homosexuality is no more than a depraved degeneracy.
It is the most horrible thing in the world to be.
That's why no queer chooses to be that way.
They cannot help themselves.
Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life.
They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature.

quite the enlightened view.

Fnord · 10th October 2010, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

indeed. i think if homosexuality was a choice, there would be ZERO homosexuals on Earth. could you imagine actually CHOSING to be gay, in the Muslim world? in Eastern Europe? talk about suicidal.

An yet, oddly enough, there are people who actually choose suicide, even when there are other viable options.

SezMe · 10th October 2010, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

most science shows that gays and lesbians realize they are this way early on in life, sometimes even before puberty.

The fallacy in this is that you are assuming the bigots are persuaded to engage in their bigotry by scientific evidence.

SezMe · 10th October 2010, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by bynmdsue

Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life.
They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature.

Homosexuality is seen in a wide range of natural settings in many different species. In fact, most species do not reproduce sexually at all. Hence I'd like to see some evidence that homosexuality is a "perverted mockery of nature".

Cleon · 10th October 2010, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

An yet, oddly enough, there are people who actually choose suicide, even when there are other viable options.

Not odd at all, really. Humans are not rational creatures. It takes very little for our emotions to dominate our actions. Every single one of us has at one point or another acted out of anger, fear, hate, love, or other emotion - whether it was the "best" viable option or not.

Despair and loneliness are powerful, powerful beasts. Combine these feelings with the raging hormones of an adolescent, and it doesn't take much to see that it can lead to some very bad, bad places.

Piggy · 10th October 2010, 08:40 PM

My question for men who think it's a choice is this: "Are you saying that you could choose to achieve and maintain an erection and have sex to orgasm with another man?"

If the answer is "No", then you're saying homosexuality is not a choice.

Skeeve · 10th October 2010, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

My question for men who think it's a choice is this: "Are you saying that you could choose to achieve and maintain an erection and have sex to orgasm with another man?"

If the answer is "No", then you're saying homosexuality is not a choice.

I am so using that.

That's two quotes of yours that I've stole this week!

Piggy · 10th October 2010, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Skeeve

I am so using that.

It usually stops the conversation.

kerikiwi · 10th October 2010, 11:43 PM

Has anyone who thinks homosexuality is a choice ever been asked to clarify whether heterosexuality is also a choice?
Surely, if one is the other is.

DC · 10th October 2010, 11:51 PM

yeah i remember me swimming in the womb of my mother and thinking, what shall i be, Hetero-, Bi- or Homosexual, i then decided to pick Hetero. But then i made an horrible mistake, after i have picked the color of my eyes, hair and skin, i picked hairy breast and back. oh man i was born in the seventies, back then that was pretty cool and very sexy. how could i know how times change

marplots · 10th October 2010, 11:54 PM

Now that I've got a few decades under my belt, I'm starting to wonder if celibacy is a choice.

PhantomWolf · 10th October 2010, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

why do some folks still think that being gay or lesbian is a choice?

most science shows that gays and lesbians realize they are this way early on in life, sometimes even before puberty.

and yet, lots of folks like to talk about it...as if its a choice.

a choice, that can be changed. ahhhh!!!!!!!!!!

now I get it.

Do you think that sexuality is fixed and unalterable?

kerikiwi · 11th October 2010, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Do you think that sexuality is fixed and unalterable?

Yes

PhantomWolf · 11th October 2010, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

Yes

So if it it impossible to alter, and genetic, it should be impossible to have one straight and one gay identical twin, right?

DC · 11th October 2010, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

So if it it impossible to alter, and genetic, it should be impossible to have one straight and one gay identical twin, right?

who said its genetic?

kerikiwi · 11th October 2010, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

So if it it impossible to alter, and genetic, it should be impossible to have one straight and one gay identical twin, right?

You've changed the question, from fixed and unalterable to fixed and genetic.
You tried a gotcha, and failed.

PhantomWolf · 11th October 2010, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by DC

who said its genetic?

Well there is this....

Originally Posted by openingmind

* A lot of headway seems to be made as regards the biological origin of homosexuality. Even Mormon professors at BYU support a biological theory:

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1158

PhantomWolf · 11th October 2010, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by kerikiwi

You've changed the question, from fixed and unalterable to fixed and genetic.
You tried a gotcha, and failed.

Well since the options generally given are nature and nurture or combination, and anything based on nurture would indicate that what can be learned can be unlearned, or changed, I made an assumption that you were going with nature, or genetics as the answer. If this is wrong, feel free to explain otherwise.

Alan · 11th October 2010, 12:48 AM

"Biological" does not just mean "genetic". There are things like hormonal influences before birth.

SezMe · 11th October 2010, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

So if it it impossible to alter, and genetic, it should be impossible to have one straight and one gay identical twin, right?

There is an error in logic here. Fraternal twins are not genetically identical.

ETA: Plus what Alan said. Even identical twins don't have the identical biological environment. Also, I would not argue that it is "impossible" to change, just damn difficult.

kerikiwi · 11th October 2010, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Well since the options generally given are nature and nurture or combination, and anything based on nurture would indicate that what can be learned can be unlearned, or changed, I made an assumption that you were going with nature, or genetics as the answer. If this is wrong, feel free to explain otherwise.

Things which affect the fetus are not learned, but still affect the fetus unalterably.

PhantomWolf · 11th October 2010, 12:52 AM

Originally Posted by Alan

"Biological" does not just mean "genetic". There are things like hormonal influences before birth.

True, however in this case we are also talking about embyros that have shared a placenta and womb and so it becomes very hard to argue that they would be exposed to a different hormonal enviroment in such a close proximity.

kerikiwi · 11th October 2010, 12:54 AM

..

PhantomWolf · 11th October 2010, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by SezMe

There is an error in logic here. Fraternal twins are not genetically identical.

Not talking Fraternal twins.

Quote:

ETA: Plus what Alan said. Even identical twins don't have the identical biological environment.

See there is a claim that requires a lot of proof

Quote:

Also, I would not argue that it is "impossible" to change, just damn difficult.

Interestingly it's easier for women than men, both ways.

kerikiwi · 11th October 2010, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Interestingly it's easier for women than men, both ways.

See there is a claim that requires a lot of proof.

Do you think sexuality is a choice?
If so, what did you choose, and why?

DC · 11th October 2010, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Alan

"Biological" does not just mean "genetic". There are things like hormonal influences before birth.

yep studies point into that direction rather than genetic.

OnlyTellsTruths · 11th October 2010, 01:15 AM

I'm not sure why some of you are looking at it as an either/or (black or white, yes or no), instead of a range with no definite points where you can say "over this line be heterosexual, over this line be homosexual, and in between are the bisexuals"....

Confusing a broad range with defined points isn't just a problem with this topic, but with many that come up (not just at the jref).

Likewise, surely there are some people (most likely a very small percentage of g/l's) that actually did make a choice (not counting bisexuals). Yet, as was already pointed out above, thinking that it is anywhere near a majority and not a tiny minority is basically absurd.

10th October 2010, 07:07 PM	#1
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Homosexuality is a choice why do some folks still think that being gay or lesbian is a choice? most science shows that gays and lesbians realize they are this way early on in life, sometimes even before puberty. and yet, lots of folks like to talk about it...as if its a choice. a choice, that can be changed. ahhhh!!!!!!!!!! now I get it.

10th October 2010, 07:14 PM	#2
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,611	Who cares? What difference does it make one way or the other?
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

10th October 2010, 07:19 PM	#5
bikerdruid hermit hippy weirdo Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: green island autonomous zone Posts: 7,369	i sure as hell never choose to be queer. it was the way i was born.
	__________________ Subvert the Dominant Paradigm!!

10th October 2010, 07:29 PM	#7
bikerdruid hermit hippy weirdo Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: green island autonomous zone Posts: 7,369	Originally Posted by Thunder can you tell us..at what age you realized that you liked boys and not girls? as long as i can remember.
	__________________ Subvert the Dominant Paradigm!!

10th October 2010, 08:15 PM	#14
bikerdruid hermit hippy weirdo Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: green island autonomous zone Posts: 7,369	Originally Posted by bynmdsue Homosexuality is no more than a depraved degeneracy. It is the most horrible thing in the world to be. That's why no queer chooses to be that way. They cannot help themselves. Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life. They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature. quite the enlightened view.
	__________________ Subvert the Dominant Paradigm!!

10th October 2010, 07:17 PM	#3
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Cleon Who cares? What difference does it make one way or the other? Exactly

10th October 2010, 07:18 PM	#4
Skeeve violent pacifist Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: The Bazaar Posts: 181	You have two choices: 1. Accept it. 2. Deny it and live a lie. There are many married men with families who are quite gay and closeted, if my experience is any indication.

10th October 2010, 07:22 PM	#6
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by bikerdruid i sure as hell never choose to be queer. it was the way i was born. can you tell us..at what age you realized that you liked boys and not girls?

10th October 2010, 07:33 PM	#8
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by bikerdruid as long as i can remember. fascinating. though, I'm sure this is not the same for all gays. Kinsey's scale of homosexuality suggests to me that those who are less "strongly" gay, probably realized their sexuality later in life. or maybe I am wrong. who the hell knows. I prefer to just believe that all gays and lesbians are born that way. though I do have my doubts about many lesbians, who seem to have "chosen" their sexuality after numerous bad experiences with men, or growing up with a crappy dad. you never hear about men going gay, after being dissed by one too many girlfriends.

10th October 2010, 07:36 PM	#9
Skeeve violent pacifist Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: The Bazaar Posts: 181	Originally Posted by Thunder though I do have my doubts about many lesbians, who seem to have chosen their lifestyle after numerous bad experiences with men, or growing up with a crappy dad. Do you think maybe being lesbian may have influenced their relationship problems with men? Growing up in a society that looks down upon homosexuals forces some people to go along to get along.

10th October 2010, 07:46 PM	#10
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Skeeve Do you think maybe being lesbian may have influenced their relationship problems with men? interesting theory. i should ask some of my lesbian friends about this.

10th October 2010, 08:06 PM	#11
bynmdsue Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,385	Homosexuality is no more than a depraved degeneracy. It is the most horrible thing in the world to be. That's why no queer chooses to be that way. They cannot help themselves. Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life. They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature.

10th October 2010, 08:13 PM	#12
Skeeve violent pacifist Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: The Bazaar Posts: 181	Originally Posted by bynmdsue Homosexuality is no more than a depraved degeneracy. It is the most horrible thing in the world to be. That's why no queer chooses to be that way. They cannot help themselves. Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life. They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature. Interesting. Tell me more.

10th October 2010, 08:14 PM	#13
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by bynmdsue Homosexuality is no more than a depraved degeneracy. It is the most horrible thing in the world to be. That's why no queer chooses to be that way. They cannot help themselves. Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life. They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature. indeed. i think if homosexuality was a choice, there would be ZERO homosexuals on Earth. could you imagine actually CHOSING to be gay, in the Muslim world? in Eastern Europe? talk about suicidal.

10th October 2010, 08:20 PM	#15
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by Thunder indeed. i think if homosexuality was a choice, there would be ZERO homosexuals on Earth. could you imagine actually CHOSING to be gay, in the Muslim world? in Eastern Europe? talk about suicidal. An yet, oddly enough, there are people who actually choose suicide, even when there are other viable options.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

10th October 2010, 08:21 PM	#16
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,654	Originally Posted by Thunder most science shows that gays and lesbians realize they are this way early on in life, sometimes even before puberty. The fallacy in this is that you are assuming the bigots are persuaded to engage in their bigotry by scientific evidence.

10th October 2010, 08:24 PM	#17
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,654	Originally Posted by bynmdsue Pity the fairies and their poor lot in life. They did not ask to be born a perverted mockery of nature. Homosexuality is seen in a wide range of natural settings in many different species. In fact, most species do not reproduce sexually at all. Hence I'd like to see some evidence that homosexuality is a "perverted mockery of nature".

10th October 2010, 08:28 PM	#18
Cleon King of the Pod People Moderator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 20,611	Originally Posted by Fnord An yet, oddly enough, there are people who actually choose suicide, even when there are other viable options. Not odd at all, really. Humans are not rational creatures. It takes very little for our emotions to dominate our actions. Every single one of us has at one point or another acted out of anger, fear, hate, love, or other emotion - whether it was the "best" viable option or not. Despair and loneliness are powerful, powerful beasts. Combine these feelings with the raging hormones of an adolescent, and it doesn't take much to see that it can lead to some very bad, bad places.
	__________________ "People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich

10th October 2010, 08:40 PM	#19
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,728	My question for men who think it's a choice is this: "Are you saying that you could choose to achieve and maintain an erection and have sex to orgasm with another man?" If the answer is "No", then you're saying homosexuality is not a choice.
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper?

10th October 2010, 08:44 PM	#20
Skeeve violent pacifist Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: The Bazaar Posts: 181	Originally Posted by Piggy My question for men who think it's a choice is this: "Are you saying that you could choose to achieve and maintain an erection and have sex to orgasm with another man?" If the answer is "No", then you're saying homosexuality is not a choice. I am so using that. That's two quotes of yours that I've stole this week!

10th October 2010, 08:51 PM	#21
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 15,728	Originally Posted by Skeeve I am so using that. It usually stops the conversation.
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper?

10th October 2010, 11:43 PM	#22
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,868	Has anyone who thinks homosexuality is a choice ever been asked to clarify whether heterosexuality is also a choice? Surely, if one is the other is.

10th October 2010, 11:51 PM	#23
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,708	yeah i remember me swimming in the womb of my mother and thinking, what shall i be, Hetero-, Bi- or Homosexual, i then decided to pick Hetero. But then i made an horrible mistake, after i have picked the color of my eyes, hair and skin, i picked hairy breast and back. oh man i was born in the seventies, back then that was pretty cool and very sexy. how could i know how times change
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

10th October 2010, 11:54 PM	#24
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,645	Now that I've got a few decades under my belt, I'm starting to wonder if celibacy is a choice.
marplots Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 5,645

10th October 2010, 11:56 PM	#25
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 10,004	Originally Posted by Thunder why do some folks still think that being gay or lesbian is a choice? most science shows that gays and lesbians realize they are this way early on in life, sometimes even before puberty. and yet, lots of folks like to talk about it...as if its a choice. a choice, that can be changed. ahhhh!!!!!!!!!! now I get it. Do you think that sexuality is fixed and unalterable?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

11th October 2010, 12:30 AM	#26
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,868	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Do you think that sexuality is fixed and unalterable? Yes

11th October 2010, 12:34 AM	#27
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 10,004	Originally Posted by kerikiwi Yes So if it it impossible to alter, and genetic, it should be impossible to have one straight and one gay identical twin, right?
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

11th October 2010, 12:36 AM	#28
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,708	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf So if it it impossible to alter, and genetic, it should be impossible to have one straight and one gay identical twin, right? who said its genetic?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

11th October 2010, 12:39 AM	#29
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,868	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf So if it it impossible to alter, and genetic, it should be impossible to have one straight and one gay identical twin, right? You've changed the question, from fixed and unalterable to fixed and genetic. You tried a gotcha, and failed.

11th October 2010, 12:40 AM	#30
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 10,004	Originally Posted by DC who said its genetic? Well there is this.... Originally Posted by openingmind * A lot of headway seems to be made as regards the biological origin of homosexuality. Even Mormon professors at BYU support a biological theory: http://mormonstories.org/?p=1158
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

11th October 2010, 12:43 AM	#31
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 10,004	Originally Posted by kerikiwi You've changed the question, from fixed and unalterable to fixed and genetic. You tried a gotcha, and failed. Well since the options generally given are nature and nurture or combination, and anything based on nurture would indicate that what can be learned can be unlearned, or changed, I made an assumption that you were going with nature, or genetics as the answer. If this is wrong, feel free to explain otherwise.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

11th October 2010, 12:48 AM	#32
Alan Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 3,658	"Biological" does not just mean "genetic". There are things like hormonal influences before birth.

11th October 2010, 12:50 AM	#33
SezMe post-pre-born Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 16,654	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf So if it it impossible to alter, and genetic, it should be impossible to have one straight and one gay identical twin, right? There is an error in logic here. Fraternal twins are not genetically identical. ETA: Plus what Alan said. Even identical twins don't have the identical biological environment. Also, I would not argue that it is "impossible" to change, just damn difficult.
	Last edited by SezMe; 11th October 2010 at 12:52 AM.

11th October 2010, 12:51 AM	#34
kerikiwi Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Bay of Islands NZ Posts: 5,868	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf Well since the options generally given are nature and nurture or combination, and anything based on nurture would indicate that what can be learned can be unlearned, or changed, I made an assumption that you were going with nature, or genetics as the answer. If this is wrong, feel free to explain otherwise. Things which affect the fetus are not learned, but still affect the fetus unalterably.

11th October 2010, 12:52 AM	#35
PhantomWolf Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 10,004	Originally Posted by Alan "Biological" does not just mean "genetic". There are things like hormonal influences before birth. True, however in this case we are also talking about embyros that have shared a placenta and womb and so it becomes very hard to argue that they would be exposed to a different hormonal enviroment in such a close proximity.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.