Speak up for autism on Nov. 1st

CelticRose · 22nd October 2010, 03:52 PM

Some very misguided people have organized a Communication Shutdown on Nov. 1st to "support" people with autism. They propose to do this by staying off of social networking sites on that day.

Please read the linked blog post by a woman diagnosed with autism, particularly the quoted paragraph, to see why this is a bad idea.
http://www.journeyswithautism.com/20...-november-1st/

Quote:

Whether we’re verbal or nonverbal, does telling people to stay off social communication networks really create empathy for us? The Internet is how we find one another. It’s where many of us feel heard. It’s where many of us feel most comfortable. Staying away from any form of online communication will not draw attention “to the isolation and intense loneliness experienced by those who are impeded from connecting socially with others.” We’re not impeded from connecting socially online. And we wouldn’t be impeded from connecting socially in the rest of the world if people had a little more empathy for how we feel and met us halfway. At any rate, it’s counterproductive to tell non-autistic people to stay away from online sites when so many autistic people overcome “isolation and intense loneliness” by connecting with one another online. How can anyone possibly develop empathy for us if they’re not even aware that we speak loudly and clearly in our online communities?

It has been suggested that Nov. 1st be made Autistics Speaking Day instead. If you're autistic, please speak out. If you are not autistic, please at least boycott the Communication Shutdown.

Thank you.

Fnord · 22nd October 2010, 04:16 PM

I've tried to start a "Day Without an Aspie", but it seems that the more militant members of the Autistic spectrum community would rather have a confrontation or inconvenience the world (or both).

CelticRose · 23rd October 2010, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Fnord

I've tried to start a "Day Without an Aspie", but it seems that the more militant members of the Autistic spectrum community would rather have a confrontation or inconvenience the world (or both).

The Hispanic community tried a similar economic boycott and it failed because too many people were afraid to lose their jobs if they took a day off of work, even if scheduled in advance. Since many people with autism have difficulty finding and keeping jobs, or are in jobs that don't have benefits such as paid time off, I don't think an economic boycott would be feasible for them either.

Bob Blaylock · 23rd October 2010, 01:08 AM

The “Day Without an Aspie” was dumb idea, this communication boycott is a dumb idea, and so is the counter “speak up” idea.

I strongly suspect that I may have some form of autism. So what? It doesn't make me any better or worse than anyone else, and it doesn't give me any greater need to gratuitously call attention to myself.

Whatever such “day with…” or “day without…” or similarly dumb ideas anyone may try to promote, I will ignore, and will go about living my life that day exactly as I do every other day.

CelticRose · 23rd October 2010, 09:23 AM

Here are some more blog posts on this subject:

http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.p...ism-a-bad-idea

Quote:

I don’t know whether I’ll participate. But I’m certainly not participating in “communication shutdown”. You see, there are other people, besides autistics, who rely on the Internet for their social interaction, namely those who are bed-bound or housebound. Some of them are sick, in pain, and lonely, and the last thing they need is their friends cutting them off for a day, perhaps the very day they most need them, even if it is supposedly in aid of another group of disabled people. So, I’d like to say to people out there who’ve got friends in this condition not to cut them off by participating in this ill-conceived event, and if you do, perhaps you could visit a friend who was in need, or talk to them on the phone. Make it “open up day” rather than shut-down day.

This guy makes a good point. This "communication shutdown" will hurt anyone who depends on the internet for social interaction. I have a friend who's housebound, and he would be almost completely isolated if not for the internet.

http://womanwithaspergers.com/2010/1...an-do-instead/
http://astridvanwoerkom.wordpress.co...p-on-shutdown/
http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.c...or-autism.html

Fnord · 23rd October 2010, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

The “Day Without an Aspie” was dumb idea, this communication boycott is a dumb idea, and so is the counter “speak up” idea...

So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work.

Thank you, Mr. Bush. Say 'Hello' to Mr. Cheney for me, willya?

Sledge · 23rd October 2010, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by CelticRose

It has been suggested that Nov. 1st be made Autistics Speaking Day instead. If you're autistic, please speak out.

And say what?

Fnord · 23rd October 2010, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by CelticRose

The Hispanic community tried a similar economic boycott and it failed because too many people were afraid to lose their jobs if they took a day off of work, even if scheduled in advance.

That may be the official reason, but from my perspective (and that of many other non-hispanics I've spoken with), the 'real' reasons it failed were because on that day: (1) About a quarter of the vehicles were missing from the freeways; (2) Waitstaff and servers spoke English; (3) Shorter lines at the convenience stores; (4) More parking spaces everywhere; (5) No leaf-blowers or lawn-mowers roaring at sunrise; (6) Less than a 30-minute wait at the emergency rooms; et cetera...

The main reason that the "Day Without a Mexican" failed in its intended purpose was that non-Hispanics felt that they actually benefitted from it!

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Since many people with autism have difficulty finding and keeping jobs, or are in jobs that don't have benefits such as paid time off, I don't think an economic boycott would be feasible for them either.

The people taking off from work that day don't have to be on the Autistic spectrum...

Bob Blaylock · 23rd October 2010, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work.

In my opinion, some people are much too obsessed with seeing themselves as “oppressed”, and using that as an excuse to spend their efforts calling attention to themselves, and creating a drag on society as a whole, rather than contributing as they should to society. And even worse, such people are often occupied trying to convince others in similar situations that they are also “oppressed” and should do likewise.

I have no use for such whiny parasites. If you are oppressed, it is only because you choose to be so. Perhaps its way past time you grew up, and acted like an adult instead of a whiny toddler.

Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

King Arthur: Bloody peasant!

Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?

Pauliesonne · 23rd October 2010, 06:03 PM

As someone with aspergers, what do people expect me to say?

Vic Vega · 23rd October 2010, 07:34 PM

Dp

Vic Vega · 23rd October 2010, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Fnord

So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work.

Thank you, Mr. Bush. Say 'Hello' to Mr. Cheney for me, willya?

What people with aspergers should probably do is something constructive like raise money for research instead of organizing some dopey "day without" that no one will pay any attention to.

You lost me on the Bush/Cheney reference.

CelticRose · 23rd October 2010, 09:50 PM

@Sledge and Pauliesonne: Whatever you think people need to hear about autism/Aspergers. Or if you're like me and aren't very eloquent, just post links and quotes galore.

Disclaimer: I may or may not be autistic. I have a strong suspicion that I am, but I can't afford to go to a doctor and find out for sure.

CelticRose · 23rd October 2010, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock

In my opinion, some people are much too obsessed with seeing themselves as “oppressed”, and using that as an excuse to spend their efforts calling attention to themselves, and creating a drag on society as a whole, rather than contributing as they should to society. And even worse, such people are often occupied trying to convince others in similar situations that they are also “oppressed” and should do likewise.

I have no use for such whiny parasites. If you are oppressed, it is only because you choose to be so. Perhaps its way past time you grew up, and acted like an adult instead of a whiny toddler.

Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

King Arthur: Bloody peasant!

Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?

From the link in the OP (sorry for so many quotes, but Ms. Cohen-Rottenberg says it so much better than I can):

Quote:

We are silenced every time non-autistic people say we are silent.

We are silenced when “autism organizations” speak for us rather than including us.

We are silenced when the “autism community” isn’t led by autistic people.

We are silenced every time non-autistic people call each other “experts” and ignore the fact that we actually live the autistic experience every day.

We are silenced when people give to “autism charities” on our behalf, as though we are victims in need of rescue.

We are silenced every time we are ignored, in situations large and small.

We are silenced when people do not have enough empathy to invite us into a conversation.

We are silenced every time we are told we are “too sensitive” in the face of bullying, harassment, and social ostracism.

We are silenced every time that non-autistic people treat us as though we’re broken.

We are silenced by every act of disrespect, dismissal, and ignorance we encounter.

Bolding mine.

If you choose not to participate in this event, Mr. Blaylock, then that is your choice, but please do not belittle those who choose to participate. Attitudes like yours are exactly what we are speaking out against, i.e., those who assume that we can just "get over ourselves" and act like everyone else. We can't. For example, no amount of "attitude adjustment" is going to enable me to be able to follow a conversation when there are more than 2 other people involved.

BTW, I am no "whiny parasite". I have a job, and I do not receive any kind of disability funding. I manage to pay my own way even though I am consistently underemployed and have trouble keeping a job because a) I am incapable of making social chitchat, which seems to be more important to employers than doing the actual job, and b) I have so much difficulty communicating with so-called "normal" people that it's almost like we're speaking 2 different languages even though we both speak English. Yet when I lose yet another job I don't moan that I'm being "oppressed" -- I pick myself up and go find another job.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions and are more than welcome to post them, but please keep the insults to yourself.

Bob Blaylock · 23rd October 2010, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by CelticRose

If you choose not to participate in this event, Mr. Blaylock, then that is your choice, but please do not belittle those who choose to participate. Attitudes like yours are exactly what we are speaking out against…

·
·
·

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions and are more than welcome to post them, but please keep the insults to yourself.

My attitude is that my condition does not make me any better or worse than anyone else, does not entitle me to any special treatment or recognition, and does not constitute any excuse for me to contribute any less to society, or to demand any more from society.

By making such a fuss over your condition, and how “oppressed” you are because of it, and what special privileges and recognition you think you are entitled to because of it, you are insulting everyone else who has this same condition, and who manages to live a fairly normal, productive life. You make us all look like entitlement-minded, self-centered crybabies.

Damien Evans · 24th October 2010, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by Fnord

I've tried to start a "Day Without an Aspie", but it seems that the more militant members of the Autistic spectrum community would rather have a confrontation or inconvenience the world (or both).

As a student this isn't really feasible for me.

Damien Evans · 24th October 2010, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Vic Vega

What people with aspergers should probably do is something constructive like raise money for research instead of organizing some dopey "day without" that no one will pay any attention to.

You lost me on the Bush/Cheney reference.

What sort of research?

If it's for a "cure", count me out, because the only way we know that could "cure" aspergers syndrome would leave me no longer me.

TubbaBlubba · 24th October 2010, 03:09 AM

I'm not exactly sure what the rest of us are going to do in response to this.

I'm also not sure what the opposition to treatment to help you function in society is all about. I'm treated for mental disorders that help me function in society. So is everyone else. Aspies just like anyone else have a right to refuse treatment, but the vehement opposition to research is alien to me. If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option.

Damien Evans · 24th October 2010, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

I'm not exactly sure what the rest of us are going to do in response to this.

I'm also not sure what the opposition to treatment to help you function in society is all about. I'm treated for mental disorders that help me function in society. So is everyone else. Aspies just like anyone else have a right to refuse treatment, but the vehement opposition to research is alien to me. If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option.

Treatment for any conditions that come with it (anxiety etc.) I'm fine with, but when the only current way we know of that could "cure" aspergers would be massive brain surgery leaving you a completely different person I'm rather less ok with it.

TubbaBlubba · 24th October 2010, 07:45 AM

Is anyone actually suggesting massive brain surgery to cure Asperger syndrome?

jiggeryqua · 24th October 2010, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option.

Perhaps it is. But if you can't get up stairs because of your wheelchair, shifting society until it is not only standard practise but actually a legal requirement to build steps is (obviously?) a better option.

It was once the case that, in some societies, being black was an 'impairment'. In many areas being born a woman left you unable to 'function' in society. I'm confident there are still areas where being gay will 'leave you unable or impaired with regards to functioning in society'.

But it's not the colour of your skin, the arrangement of your genitalia or your sexual preferences that will actually be the cause of your 'inability' or 'impairment'. It's your society, building all those stairs when ramps would do for everyone.

I do feel sorry for all those able-bodied, white, male heterosexuals, who must be feeling pretty weary of all these special interest groups pushing for a society that enables the 'unable' and that does not knowingly impair any of its citizens.

jiggeryqua · 24th October 2010, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

Is anyone actually suggesting massive brain surgery to cure Asperger syndrome?

What are you suggesting to 'cure' Aspergians? You're the one insisting on treatment, don't pretend it's a massive strawman. Nor is it a strawman to ask what 'treatment' you suggest for being black, female, gay or paraplegic.

The 'treatment' is ramps. I don't have to point out that you're not to take that literally, do I?

CelticRose · 24th October 2010, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

I'm not exactly sure what the rest of us are going to do in response to this.

Go on social networking sites like you normally would and don't donate to the charity sponsoring the communication blackout.

Doing nothing will actually help.

Quote:

I'm also not sure what the opposition to treatment to help you function in society is all about. I'm treated for mental disorders that help me function in society. So is everyone else. Aspies just like anyone else have a right to refuse treatment, but the vehement opposition to research is alien to me. If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option.

The opposition is not so much to treatment to help people function as it is to finding a "cure".

Most people with autism want help with learning how to function in society. In fact, a big gripe is that there aren't very many services to help autistic adults function -- the focus seems to be on children.

What we object to is people trying to find a "cure" for autism. There's a movement out there that portrays autism as this horrible plague that must be eliminated. There's even research aimed at finding a genetic marker for autism so that any fetus showing signs of autism can be aborted.

Autism is a neurological condition. It makes up a significant portion (if not all) of a person's personality. It's who we are. If you take away my autism, you're taking away what makes me me.

TubbaBlubba · 25th October 2010, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

Perhaps it is. But if you can't get up stairs because of your wheelchair, shifting society until it is not only standard practise but actually a legal requirement to build steps is (obviously?) a better option.

It was once the case that, in some societies, being black was an 'impairment'. In many areas being born a woman left you unable to 'function' in society. I'm confident there are still areas where being gay will 'leave you unable or impaired with regards to functioning in society'.

But it's not the colour of your skin, the arrangement of your genitalia or your sexual preferences that will actually be the cause of your 'inability' or 'impairment'. It's your society, building all those stairs when ramps would do for everyone.

I do feel sorry for all those able-bodied, white, male heterosexuals, who must be feeling pretty weary of all these special interest groups pushing for a society that enables the 'unable' and that does not knowingly impair any of its citizens.

I'm not able-bodied. Why do you imply that?

Also, your comparisons with misogyny and apartheid are absurd. It emphasizes excessive entitlement.

If we could give working prosthetic legs to every wheelchair-bound person, I bet we would. Sadly, we can't. In the meanwhile, we make sure they can get where they need to.

Of course we need support groups, not just for Aspies and Auties but for all people who feel they don't fit in, neurological disorder or not. And if medication can help without severe side effects that outweigh the benefit then why not? I can understand why looking for a specific "cure" in this case is a bit absurd, however, especially when we don't even know the cause.

I'm on medication that quite drastically alters my behaviour, but I actually see the benefits from it, that is, being able to function among people without appearing completely crazy. Before that, I didn't expect people to "accept" the fact that I had very powerful mood swings (suicidal depression <-> hypomania within the hour), I explained it to them and then left it to them to hang around me or not. Some people avoided me, others hung in there. I destroyed my chances with the then-love of my life due to it, but I don't blame her for it. If you, for whatever reason, act in a way that it takes excessive amounts of energy, you are not entitled to any sort of special treatment. Some people may choose to overlook it due to your other redeeming qualities, others won't. And if you choose not to take medication that may help, people certainly are in the right to move away from you if they feel that, perhaps, you're egotistical in not taking a medication, and placing an excessive burden on them.

As for identifying a gene, once again, I don't see the problem. If parents feel that they don't want to raise a child that will require large efforts to function, or may in fact barely function at all in society, then that's their right, whatever the name of the diagnosis.

Uncayimmy · 25th October 2010, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Autism is a neurological condition. It makes up a significant portion (if not all) of a person's personality. It's who we are. If you take away my autism, you're taking away what makes me me.

Is it a neurological disorder or condition? If it's the latter, we all have neurological conditions that affect our personalities. Anyone who has ever raised a child (especially if more than one) clearly sees how much of the personality is present without any form of nurture. Many of us choose to alter our personalties, such as the shy person who takes up public speaking, the addict who stays away from drugs, or the volatile person who wants to control their anger.

I'm puzzled as to what you want from society.

CelticRose · 25th October 2010, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

Is it a neurological disorder or condition?

That's a very good question. I wish I had an answer for it. I think a lot depends on how one defines disorder or condition.

Quote:

I'm puzzled as to what you want from society.

Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have.

TubbaBlubba · 25th October 2010, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have.

So not any special treatment.

Pauliesonne · 25th October 2010, 10:17 PM

I've never even thought of asking for respect and acceptance for having aspergers.

But I seem to get it anyway.

It's the bisexual thing that I want and for the most case, that's what I get.

CelticRose · 25th October 2010, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

So not any special treatment.

Not for myself, no. My autism -- if indeed that's what I have -- isn't severe enough to require accommodations.

However, autism is known as spectrum disorder because the severity runs the gamut from completely non-verbal to merely eccentric. Those who need help to be able to function in society should be given that help.

Uncayimmy · 26th October 2010, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have.

In what ways does that not happen now?

The Central Scrutinizer · 26th October 2010, 05:24 AM

I think everyone with autism should get vaccinated on Nov 1.

TubbaBlubba · 26th October 2010, 05:31 AM

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Not for myself, no. My autism -- if indeed that's what I have -- isn't severe enough to require accommodations.

However, autism is known as spectrum disorder because the severity runs the gamut from completely non-verbal to merely eccentric. Those who need help to be able to function in society should be given that help.

And they are not now, in relation to how much help other disabled people get?

jiggeryqua · 26th October 2010, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

I'm not able-bodied. Why do you imply that?

I did not imply that. Where do you think you see such implication?

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

Also, your comparisons with misogyny and apartheid are absurd. It emphasizes excessive entitlement.

No comparisons are absurd. Some things that are compared will have less in common than others, but 100% commonality indicates identical things, and to 'compare' something to itself is absurd and only doesn't contradict the opening sentence of this paragraph because it isn't, in fact, a comparison.

Do, please, point out any and all dissimilar elements of any things I compare to other things. I'll promise not to be faintly patronising in response.

I am unsure what you mean by 'It emphasises excessive entitlement'. I'm guessing 'it' is '[my] comparisons', and they 'emphasises (sic) excessive entitlement'. Where is the excessive entitlement, whatever that may mean?

(By the by, I was talking of racism and sexism, not apartheid - which tends to imply South African politics - or misogyny, which is really very uncommon and has been appropriated as a misunderstood word to stand for 'witch' in the current mechanics of social outrage.)

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

If we could give working prosthetic legs to every wheelchair-bound person, I bet we would. Sadly, we can't. In the meanwhile, we make sure they can get where they need to.

Or, as you might more relevantly have said, "Now, at last, and after much direct action by a disability lobby that inconvenienced the able-bodied community and raised awareness of the social disability model, we make sure they can get where they want to.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

Of course we need support groups, not just for Aspies and Auties but for all people who feel they don't fit in, neurological disorder or not. And if medication can help without severe side effects that outweigh the benefit then why not? I can understand why looking for a specific "cure" in this case is a bit absurd, however, especially when we don't even know the cause.

Again, for the hard of understanding: Aspergians do not 'feel' they don't fit in, any more than a square peg 'feels' it doesn't fit in a round hole. Disability rights groups (I'll skip the other examples you 'feel' show excessive entitlement) did not 'feel' disadvantaged by a societal attitude that said 'I can get up stairs, you can't, there are stairs, because I built them to get up there, so you are disabled by them and here's some happy pills for your hurt feelings'. They did not 'feel' disadvantaged, they were disadvantaged.

The changes in society that enable not only wheelchair-users but also, for example, blind and deaf people were not the gift of some altruistic society, no matter how much you 'bet' on that result. The squeaky wheel eventually got some grease. I'm prepared to belief that since then awareness has grown such that a lot of voters would approve a policy of free prosthetic legs for all - but it would still be politicians deciding whether that happened...because let's face it, it could happen. We put men on the moon, a massively expensive operation - we lack a similar compulsion to distribute free legs.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

I'm on medication that quite drastically alters my behaviour, but I actually see the benefits from it, that is, being able to function among people without appearing completely crazy. Before that, I didn't expect people to "accept" the fact that I had very powerful mood swings (suicidal depression <-> hypomania within the hour), I explained it to them and then left it to them to hang around me or not. Some people avoided me, others hung in there. I destroyed my chances with the then-love of my life due to it, but I don't blame her for it. If you, for whatever reason, act in a way that it takes excessive amounts of energy, you are not entitled to any sort of special treatment.

Oh, I see, you think autists are arguing for some law or other that would oblige people to like them. No wonder I've not been catching your drift. If you, for whatever reason, can't get up these steps, why should I expend excessive energy arranging special treament for you? Build your own ramp, whiner.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

As for identifying a gene, once again, I don't see the problem. If parents feel that they don't want to raise a child that will require large efforts to function, or may in fact barely function at all in society, then that's their right, whatever the name of the diagnosis.

Where 'right' equals 'something I think people should have, because I would want it'. Terminating pregnanices due to unwanted genes is a right...whatever the name of the biosocial pseudoscience.

TubbaBlubba · 26th October 2010, 06:14 AM

OK, let's make this short. What, exactly, do you want from society?

jiggeryqua · 26th October 2010, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

OK, let's make this short. What, exactly, do you want from society?

You think that would be short?

ETA: Let's graciously assume you didn't actually mean everything I would want 'from' society (which is at least four assumptions), nor 'exactly' (which is not really an assumption because you can't have meant 'exactly' and 'short' and I'm sure you meant 'short'). My best effort at a concise expression of what I expect from society, at least in the terms of this thread, is 'continued progress'.

Have at it, sir.

Uncayimmy · 26th October 2010, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

You think that would be short?

The question was short. Your answer can be as long as you want it to be.

jiggeryqua · 26th October 2010, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

The question was short. Your answer can be as long as you want it to be.

You might be right (I'd try for the million if you're certain you were). In that case, however, I'd expect the response to be 'tl;dr'. In this case, my answer is precisely as long as I wanted it to be (funny, that...).

My questions were relatively short, but apparantly none were short enough to warrant a response, any response at all...other than an ambiguous, misleading, goal-post shifting question.

You can make your answers as long as you want, Tubba, but if it helps let's start with just one of the questions your previous post raised (all of which you neglected to respond to) and let's keep it short:

What, exactly, do you mean by 'emphasises an excessive entitlement?'

Uncayimmy · 26th October 2010, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

You might be right (I'd try for the million if you're certain you were). In that case, however, I'd expect the response to be 'tl;dr'. In this case, my answer is precisely as long as I wanted it to be (funny, that...).

I would appreciate if you would follow the progression below and respond. The original question was asking what the person wants from society.

Originally Posted by CelticRose

Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have.

Originally Posted by UncaYimmy

In what ways does that not happen now?

Skwinty · 26th October 2010, 08:21 AM

I can understand ramps etc for the wheelchair bound.
That is a failing of society to provide access to public places for people in wheel chairs.

As for respect and acceptance, well my parents taught me that those reactions from society, are earned and not just given, regardless of race, creed, belief or condition.

In other words, my level of acceptance into society and the amount of respect society shows me, is directly proportional to my attitude and behaviour.

Now I understand that Aspies, at least those who are affected more severely, have problems with social interaction.
People should, if they are aware of the persons condition, react with compassion and understanding.

However, in many cases, society is not aware of this on first encountering the Aspie. So I think that a little understanding from both sides is in order.

The only way we can garner that understanding is through dialogue and interaction.

TubbaBlubba · 26th October 2010, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by jiggeryqua

You might be right (I'd try for the million if you're certain you were). In that case, however, I'd expect the response to be 'tl;dr'. In this case, my answer is precisely as long as I wanted it to be (funny, that...).

My questions were relatively short, but apparantly none were short enough to warrant a response, any response at all...other than an ambiguous, misleading, goal-post shifting question.

You can make your answers as long as you want, Tubba, but if it helps let's start with just one of the questions your previous post raised (all of which you neglected to respond to) and let's keep it short:

What, exactly, do you mean by 'emphasises an excessive entitlement?'

The problem is that unless you state clearly what you want, you can just acrobat your way around anything I say and reply with "No, that's not really what I meant!" and make up more irrelevant analogies about black people and wheelchairs.

What I mean is that it shows very clearly that you somehow think that you are far more than reasonably entitled to something from society. I don't know what it is, since you haven't said so yet. Using the term "Aspergians" appears to be a warning flag.

22nd October 2010, 03:52 PM	#1
CelticRose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,380	Speak up for autism on Nov. 1st Some very misguided people have organized a Communication Shutdown on Nov. 1st to "support" people with autism. They propose to do this by staying off of social networking sites on that day. Please read the linked blog post by a woman diagnosed with autism, particularly the quoted paragraph, to see why this is a bad idea. http://www.journeyswithautism.com/20...-november-1st/ Quote: Whether we’re verbal or nonverbal, does telling people to stay off social communication networks really create empathy for us? The Internet is how we find one another. It’s where many of us feel heard. It’s where many of us feel most comfortable. Staying away from any form of online communication will not draw attention “to the isolation and intense loneliness experienced by those who are impeded from connecting socially with others.” We’re not impeded from connecting socially online. And we wouldn’t be impeded from connecting socially in the rest of the world if people had a little more empathy for how we feel and met us halfway. At any rate, it’s counterproductive to tell non-autistic people to stay away from online sites when so many autistic people overcome “isolation and intense loneliness” by connecting with one another online. How can anyone possibly develop empathy for us if they’re not even aware that we speak loudly and clearly in our online communities? It has been suggested that Nov. 1st be made Autistics Speaking Day instead. If you're autistic, please speak out. If you are not autistic, please at least boycott the Communication Shutdown. Thank you.
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/

22nd October 2010, 04:16 PM	#2
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	I've tried to start a "Day Without an Aspie", but it seems that the more militant members of the Autistic spectrum community would rather have a confrontation or inconvenience the world (or both).
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

23rd October 2010, 12:04 AM	#3
CelticRose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,380	Originally Posted by Fnord I've tried to start a "Day Without an Aspie", but it seems that the more militant members of the Autistic spectrum community would rather have a confrontation or inconvenience the world (or both). The Hispanic community tried a similar economic boycott and it failed because too many people were afraid to lose their jobs if they took a day off of work, even if scheduled in advance. Since many people with autism have difficulty finding and keeping jobs, or are in jobs that don't have benefits such as paid time off, I don't think an economic boycott would be feasible for them either.
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/

23rd October 2010, 09:23 AM	#5
CelticRose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,380	Here are some more blog posts on this subject: http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.p...ism-a-bad-idea Quote: I don’t know whether I’ll participate. But I’m certainly not participating in “communication shutdown”. You see, there are other people, besides autistics, who rely on the Internet for their social interaction, namely those who are bed-bound or housebound. Some of them are sick, in pain, and lonely, and the last thing they need is their friends cutting them off for a day, perhaps the very day they most need them, even if it is supposedly in aid of another group of disabled people. So, I’d like to say to people out there who’ve got friends in this condition not to cut them off by participating in this ill-conceived event, and if you do, perhaps you could visit a friend who was in need, or talk to them on the phone. Make it “open up day” rather than shut-down day. This guy makes a good point. This "communication shutdown" will hurt anyone who depends on the internet for social interaction. I have a friend who's housebound, and he would be almost completely isolated if not for the internet. http://womanwithaspergers.com/2010/1...an-do-instead/ http://astridvanwoerkom.wordpress.co...p-on-shutdown/ http://daisymayfattypants.blogspot.c...or-autism.html
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/

23rd October 2010, 09:47 AM	#6
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock The “Day Without an Aspie” was dumb idea, this communication boycott is a dumb idea, and so is the counter “speak up” idea... So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work. Thank you, Mr. Bush. Say 'Hello' to Mr. Cheney for me, willya?
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

23rd October 2010, 01:08 AM	#4
Bob Blaylock Forklift Operator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: N38°35' W121°29' Posts: 3,013	The “Day Without an Aspie” was dumb idea, this communication boycott is a dumb idea, and so is the counter “speak up” idea. I strongly suspect that I may have some form of autism. So what? It doesn't make me any better or worse than anyone else, and it doesn't give me any greater need to gratuitously call attention to myself. Whatever such “day with…” or “day without…” or similarly dumb ideas anyone may try to promote, I will ignore, and will go about living my life that day exactly as I do every other day.

23rd October 2010, 09:49 AM	#7
Sledge Grammaton Cleric Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Swingin' on a star Posts: 7,123	Originally Posted by CelticRose It has been suggested that Nov. 1st be made Autistics Speaking Day instead. If you're autistic, please speak out. And say what?
	__________________ "The perfect haiku would have just two syllables: Airwolf" ~ Ernest Cline "Science knows it doesn't know everything, otherwise it would stop" ~ Dara O'Briain.

23rd October 2010, 09:56 AM	#8
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Originally Posted by CelticRose The Hispanic community tried a similar economic boycott and it failed because too many people were afraid to lose their jobs if they took a day off of work, even if scheduled in advance. That may be the official reason, but from my perspective (and that of many other non-hispanics I've spoken with), the 'real' reasons it failed were because on that day: (1) About a quarter of the vehicles were missing from the freeways; (2) Waitstaff and servers spoke English; (3) Shorter lines at the convenience stores; (4) More parking spaces everywhere; (5) No leaf-blowers or lawn-mowers roaring at sunrise; (6) Less than a 30-minute wait at the emergency rooms; et cetera... The main reason that the "Day Without a Mexican" failed in its intended purpose was that non-Hispanics felt that they actually benefitted from it! Originally Posted by CelticRose Since many people with autism have difficulty finding and keeping jobs, or are in jobs that don't have benefits such as paid time off, I don't think an economic boycott would be feasible for them either. The people taking off from work that day don't have to be on the Autistic spectrum...
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

23rd October 2010, 04:33 PM	#9
Bob Blaylock Forklift Operator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: N38°35' W121°29' Posts: 3,013	Originally Posted by Fnord So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work. In my opinion, some people are much too obsessed with seeing themselves as “oppressed”, and using that as an excuse to spend their efforts calling attention to themselves, and creating a drag on society as a whole, rather than contributing as they should to society. And even worse, such people are often occupied trying to convince others in similar situations that they are also “oppressed” and should do likewise. I have no use for such whiny parasites. If you are oppressed, it is only because you choose to be so. Perhaps its way past time you grew up, and acted like an adult instead of a whiny toddler. Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed! King Arthur: Bloody peasant! Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?
	Last edited by Bob Blaylock; 23rd October 2010 at 04:43 PM. Reason: A man without a forklift is nothing.

23rd October 2010, 06:03 PM	#10
Pauliesonne Bi Gi Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: A small town in Northern Ireland called Limavady. Posts: 2,691	As someone with aspergers, what do people expect me to say?
	__________________ You gotta give 'em hope - Harvey Milk

23rd October 2010, 07:34 PM	#11
Vic Vega Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Cradle of Liberty Posts: 1,075	Dp
	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth Last edited by Vic Vega; 23rd October 2010 at 07:38 PM.

23rd October 2010, 07:37 PM	#12
Vic Vega Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Cradle of Liberty Posts: 1,075	Originally Posted by Fnord So, by your reasoning, oppressed peoples everywhere should just do nothing except shut up and get back to work. Thank you, Mr. Bush. Say 'Hello' to Mr. Cheney for me, willya? What people with aspergers should probably do is something constructive like raise money for research instead of organizing some dopey "day without" that no one will pay any attention to. You lost me on the Bush/Cheney reference.
	__________________ "The sleeping and the dead Are but as pictures. 'Tis the eye of childhood That fears a painted devil." --Shakespeare - Macbeth Last edited by Vic Vega; 23rd October 2010 at 07:39 PM.

23rd October 2010, 09:50 PM	#13
CelticRose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,380	@Sledge and Pauliesonne: Whatever you think people need to hear about autism/Aspergers. Or if you're like me and aren't very eloquent, just post links and quotes galore. Disclaimer: I may or may not be autistic. I have a strong suspicion that I am, but I can't afford to go to a doctor and find out for sure.
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/

23rd October 2010, 10:19 PM	#14
CelticRose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,380	Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock In my opinion, some people are much too obsessed with seeing themselves as “oppressed”, and using that as an excuse to spend their efforts calling attention to themselves, and creating a drag on society as a whole, rather than contributing as they should to society. And even worse, such people are often occupied trying to convince others in similar situations that they are also “oppressed” and should do likewise. I have no use for such whiny parasites. If you are oppressed, it is only because you choose to be so. Perhaps its way past time you grew up, and acted like an adult instead of a whiny toddler. Dennis: Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed! King Arthur: Bloody peasant! Dennis: Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you? From the link in the OP (sorry for so many quotes, but Ms. Cohen-Rottenberg says it so much better than I can): Quote: We are silenced every time non-autistic people say we are silent. We are silenced when “autism organizations” speak for us rather than including us. We are silenced when the “autism community” isn’t led by autistic people. We are silenced every time non-autistic people call each other “experts” and ignore the fact that we actually live the autistic experience every day. We are silenced when people give to “autism charities” on our behalf, as though we are victims in need of rescue. We are silenced every time we are ignored, in situations large and small. We are silenced when people do not have enough empathy to invite us into a conversation. We are silenced every time we are told we are “too sensitive” in the face of bullying, harassment, and social ostracism. We are silenced every time that non-autistic people treat us as though we’re broken. We are silenced by every act of disrespect, dismissal, and ignorance we encounter. Bolding mine. If you choose not to participate in this event, Mr. Blaylock, then that is your choice, but please do not belittle those who choose to participate. Attitudes like yours are exactly what we are speaking out against, i.e., those who assume that we can just "get over ourselves" and act like everyone else. We can't. For example, no amount of "attitude adjustment" is going to enable me to be able to follow a conversation when there are more than 2 other people involved. BTW, I am no "whiny parasite". I have a job, and I do not receive any kind of disability funding. I manage to pay my own way even though I am consistently underemployed and have trouble keeping a job because a) I am incapable of making social chitchat, which seems to be more important to employers than doing the actual job, and b) I have so much difficulty communicating with so-called "normal" people that it's almost like we're speaking 2 different languages even though we both speak English. Yet when I lose yet another job I don't moan that I'm being "oppressed" -- I pick myself up and go find another job. You are, of course, entitled to your opinions and are more than welcome to post them, but please keep the insults to yourself.
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/

23rd October 2010, 11:41 PM	#15
Bob Blaylock Forklift Operator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: N38°35' W121°29' Posts: 3,013	Originally Posted by CelticRose If you choose not to participate in this event, Mr. Blaylock, then that is your choice, but please do not belittle those who choose to participate. Attitudes like yours are exactly what we are speaking out against… · · · You are, of course, entitled to your opinions and are more than welcome to post them, but please keep the insults to yourself. My attitude is that my condition does not make me any better or worse than anyone else, does not entitle me to any special treatment or recognition, and does not constitute any excuse for me to contribute any less to society, or to demand any more from society. By making such a fuss over your condition, and how “oppressed” you are because of it, and what special privileges and recognition you think you are entitled to because of it, you are insulting everyone else who has this same condition, and who manages to live a fairly normal, productive life. You make us all look like entitlement-minded, self-centered crybabies.

24th October 2010, 02:53 AM	#16
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,302	Originally Posted by Fnord I've tried to start a "Day Without an Aspie", but it seems that the more militant members of the Autistic spectrum community would rather have a confrontation or inconvenience the world (or both). As a student this isn't really feasible for me.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

24th October 2010, 02:58 AM	#17
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,302	Originally Posted by Vic Vega What people with aspergers should probably do is something constructive like raise money for research instead of organizing some dopey "day without" that no one will pay any attention to. You lost me on the Bush/Cheney reference. What sort of research? If it's for a "cure", count me out, because the only way we know that could "cure" aspergers syndrome would leave me no longer me.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

24th October 2010, 03:09 AM	#18
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden Posts: 7,414	I'm not exactly sure what the rest of us are going to do in response to this. I'm also not sure what the opposition to treatment to help you function in society is all about. I'm treated for mental disorders that help me function in society. So is everyone else. Aspies just like anyone else have a right to refuse treatment, but the vehement opposition to research is alien to me. If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option.
	__________________ Disagreement begets progress. Last edited by TubbaBlubba; 24th October 2010 at 03:14 AM.

24th October 2010, 05:56 AM	#19
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,302	Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba I'm not exactly sure what the rest of us are going to do in response to this. I'm also not sure what the opposition to treatment to help you function in society is all about. I'm treated for mental disorders that help me function in society. So is everyone else. Aspies just like anyone else have a right to refuse treatment, but the vehement opposition to research is alien to me. If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option. Treatment for any conditions that come with it (anxiety etc.) I'm fine with, but when the only current way we know of that could "cure" aspergers would be massive brain surgery leaving you a completely different person I'm rather less ok with it.
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

24th October 2010, 07:45 AM	#20
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden Posts: 7,414	Is anyone actually suggesting massive brain surgery to cure Asperger syndrome?
	__________________ Disagreement begets progress.

24th October 2010, 08:53 AM	#21
jiggeryqua Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,943	Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option. Perhaps it is. But if you can't get up stairs because of your wheelchair, shifting society until it is not only standard practise but actually a legal requirement to build steps is (obviously?) a better option. It was once the case that, in some societies, being black was an 'impairment'. In many areas being born a woman left you unable to 'function' in society. I'm confident there are still areas where being gay will 'leave you unable or impaired with regards to functioning in society'. But it's not the colour of your skin, the arrangement of your genitalia or your sexual preferences that will actually be the cause of your 'inability' or 'impairment'. It's your society, building all those stairs when ramps would do for everyone. I do feel sorry for all those able-bodied, white, male heterosexuals, who must be feeling pretty weary of all these special interest groups pushing for a society that enables the 'unable' and that does not knowingly impair any of its citizens.

24th October 2010, 09:03 AM	#22
jiggeryqua Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,943	Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba Is anyone actually suggesting massive brain surgery to cure Asperger syndrome? What are you suggesting to 'cure' Aspergians? You're the one insisting on treatment, don't pretend it's a massive strawman. Nor is it a strawman to ask what 'treatment' you suggest for being black, female, gay or paraplegic. The 'treatment' is ramps. I don't have to point out that you're not to take that literally, do I?

24th October 2010, 09:52 PM	#23
CelticRose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,380	Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba I'm not exactly sure what the rest of us are going to do in response to this. Go on social networking sites like you normally would and don't donate to the charity sponsoring the communication blackout. Doing nothing will actually help. Quote: I'm also not sure what the opposition to treatment to help you function in society is all about. I'm treated for mental disorders that help me function in society. So is everyone else. Aspies just like anyone else have a right to refuse treatment, but the vehement opposition to research is alien to me. If something leaves you unable to or impaired with regards to functioning in society, treatment is an obvious option. The opposition is not so much to treatment to help people function as it is to finding a "cure". Most people with autism want help with learning how to function in society. In fact, a big gripe is that there aren't very many services to help autistic adults function -- the focus seems to be on children. What we object to is people trying to find a "cure" for autism. There's a movement out there that portrays autism as this horrible plague that must be eliminated. There's even research aimed at finding a genetic marker for autism so that any fetus showing signs of autism can be aborted. Autism is a neurological condition. It makes up a significant portion (if not all) of a person's personality. It's who we are. If you take away my autism, you're taking away what makes me me.
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/

25th October 2010, 12:27 AM	#24
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden Posts: 7,414	Originally Posted by jiggeryqua Perhaps it is. But if you can't get up stairs because of your wheelchair, shifting society until it is not only standard practise but actually a legal requirement to build steps is (obviously?) a better option. It was once the case that, in some societies, being black was an 'impairment'. In many areas being born a woman left you unable to 'function' in society. I'm confident there are still areas where being gay will 'leave you unable or impaired with regards to functioning in society'. But it's not the colour of your skin, the arrangement of your genitalia or your sexual preferences that will actually be the cause of your 'inability' or 'impairment'. It's your society, building all those stairs when ramps would do for everyone. I do feel sorry for all those able-bodied, white, male heterosexuals, who must be feeling pretty weary of all these special interest groups pushing for a society that enables the 'unable' and that does not knowingly impair any of its citizens. I'm not able-bodied. Why do you imply that? Also, your comparisons with misogyny and apartheid are absurd. It emphasizes excessive entitlement. If we could give working prosthetic legs to every wheelchair-bound person, I bet we would. Sadly, we can't. In the meanwhile, we make sure they can get where they need to. Of course we need support groups, not just for Aspies and Auties but for all people who feel they don't fit in, neurological disorder or not. And if medication can help without severe side effects that outweigh the benefit then why not? I can understand why looking for a specific "cure" in this case is a bit absurd, however, especially when we don't even know the cause. I'm on medication that quite drastically alters my behaviour, but I actually see the benefits from it, that is, being able to function among people without appearing completely crazy. Before that, I didn't expect people to "accept" the fact that I had very powerful mood swings (suicidal depression <-> hypomania within the hour), I explained it to them and then left it to them to hang around me or not. Some people avoided me, others hung in there. I destroyed my chances with the then-love of my life due to it, but I don't blame her for it. If you, for whatever reason, act in a way that it takes excessive amounts of energy, you are not entitled to any sort of special treatment. Some people may choose to overlook it due to your other redeeming qualities, others won't. And if you choose not to take medication that may help, people certainly are in the right to move away from you if they feel that, perhaps, you're egotistical in not taking a medication, and placing an excessive burden on them. As for identifying a gene, once again, I don't see the problem. If parents feel that they don't want to raise a child that will require large efforts to function, or may in fact barely function at all in society, then that's their right, whatever the name of the diagnosis.
	__________________ Disagreement begets progress.

25th October 2010, 01:02 AM	#25
Uncayimmy Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 7,485	Originally Posted by CelticRose Autism is a neurological condition. It makes up a significant portion (if not all) of a person's personality. It's who we are. If you take away my autism, you're taking away what makes me me. Is it a neurological disorder or condition? If it's the latter, we all have neurological conditions that affect our personalities. Anyone who has ever raised a child (especially if more than one) clearly sees how much of the personality is present without any form of nurture. Many of us choose to alter our personalties, such as the shy person who takes up public speaking, the addict who stays away from drugs, or the volatile person who wants to control their anger. I'm puzzled as to what you want from society.
Uncayimmy Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 7,485

25th October 2010, 09:54 PM	#26
CelticRose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,380	Originally Posted by UncaYimmy Is it a neurological disorder or condition? That's a very good question. I wish I had an answer for it. I think a lot depends on how one defines disorder or condition. Quote: I'm puzzled as to what you want from society. Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have.
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/

25th October 2010, 10:00 PM	#27
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden Posts: 7,414	Originally Posted by CelticRose Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have. So not any special treatment.
	__________________ Disagreement begets progress.

25th October 2010, 10:17 PM	#28
Pauliesonne Bi Gi Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: A small town in Northern Ireland called Limavady. Posts: 2,691	I've never even thought of asking for respect and acceptance for having aspergers. But I seem to get it anyway. It's the bisexual thing that I want and for the most case, that's what I get.
	__________________ You gotta give 'em hope - Harvey Milk

25th October 2010, 10:18 PM	#29
CelticRose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,380	Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba So not any special treatment. Not for myself, no. My autism -- if indeed that's what I have -- isn't severe enough to require accommodations. However, autism is known as spectrum disorder because the severity runs the gamut from completely non-verbal to merely eccentric. Those who need help to be able to function in society should be given that help.
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/

26th October 2010, 12:11 AM	#30
Uncayimmy Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 7,485	Originally Posted by CelticRose Just the same basic respect and acceptance that every person should have. In what ways does that not happen now?
Uncayimmy Banned Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 7,485

26th October 2010, 05:24 AM	#31
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,277	I think everyone with autism should get vaccinated on Nov 1.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

26th October 2010, 05:31 AM	#32
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden Posts: 7,414	Originally Posted by CelticRose Not for myself, no. My autism -- if indeed that's what I have -- isn't severe enough to require accommodations. However, autism is known as spectrum disorder because the severity runs the gamut from completely non-verbal to merely eccentric. Those who need help to be able to function in society should be given that help. And they are not now, in relation to how much help other disabled people get?
	__________________ Disagreement begets progress.

26th October 2010, 05:59 AM	#33
jiggeryqua Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,943	Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba I'm not able-bodied. Why do you imply that? I did not imply that. Where do you think you see such implication? Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba Also, your comparisons with misogyny and apartheid are absurd. It emphasizes excessive entitlement. No comparisons are absurd. Some things that are compared will have less in common than others, but 100% commonality indicates identical things, and to 'compare' something to itself is absurd and only doesn't contradict the opening sentence of this paragraph because it isn't, in fact, a comparison. Do, please, point out any and all dissimilar elements of any things I compare to other things. I'll promise not to be faintly patronising in response. I am unsure what you mean by 'It emphasises excessive entitlement'. I'm guessing 'it' is '[my] comparisons', and they 'emphasises (sic) excessive entitlement'. Where is the excessive entitlement, whatever that may mean? (By the by, I was talking of racism and sexism, not apartheid - which tends to imply South African politics - or misogyny, which is really very uncommon and has been appropriated as a misunderstood word to stand for 'witch' in the current mechanics of social outrage.) Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba If we could give working prosthetic legs to every wheelchair-bound person, I bet we would. Sadly, we can't. In the meanwhile, we make sure they can get where they need to. Or, as you might more relevantly have said, "Now, at last, and after much direct action by a disability lobby that inconvenienced the able-bodied community and raised awareness of the social disability model, we make sure they can get where they want to. Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba Of course we need support groups, not just for Aspies and Auties but for all people who feel they don't fit in, neurological disorder or not. And if medication can help without severe side effects that outweigh the benefit then why not? I can understand why looking for a specific "cure" in this case is a bit absurd, however, especially when we don't even know the cause. Again, for the hard of understanding: Aspergians do not 'feel' they don't fit in, any more than a square peg 'feels' it doesn't fit in a round hole. Disability rights groups (I'll skip the other examples you 'feel' show excessive entitlement) did not 'feel' disadvantaged by a societal attitude that said 'I can get up stairs, you can't, there are stairs, because I built them to get up there, so you are disabled by them and here's some happy pills for your hurt feelings'. They did not 'feel' disadvantaged, they were disadvantaged. The changes in society that enable not only wheelchair-users but also, for example, blind and deaf people were not the gift of some altruistic society, no matter how much you 'bet' on that result. The squeaky wheel eventually got some grease. I'm prepared to belief that since then awareness has grown such that a lot of voters would approve a policy of free prosthetic legs for all - but it would still be politicians deciding whether that happened...because let's face it, it could happen. We put men on the moon, a massively expensive operation - we lack a similar compulsion to distribute free legs. Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba I'm on medication that quite drastically alters my behaviour, but I actually see the benefits from it, that is, being able to function among people without appearing completely crazy. Before that, I didn't expect people to "accept" the fact that I had very powerful mood swings (suicidal depression <-> hypomania within the hour), I explained it to them and then left it to them to hang around me or not. Some people avoided me, others hung in there. I destroyed my chances with the then-love of my life due to it, but I don't blame her for it. If you, for whatever reason, act in a way that it takes excessive amounts of energy, you are not entitled to any sort of special treatment. Oh, I see, you think autists are arguing for some law or other that would oblige people to like them. No wonder I've not been catching your drift. If you, for whatever reason, can't get up these steps, why should I expend excessive energy arranging special treament for you? Build your own ramp, whiner. Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba As for identifying a gene, once again, I don't see the problem. If parents feel that they don't want to raise a child that will require large efforts to function, or may in fact barely function at all in society, then that's their right, whatever the name of the diagnosis. Where 'right' equals 'something I think people should have, because I would want it'. Terminating pregnanices due to unwanted genes is a right...whatever the name of the biosocial pseudoscience.

26th October 2010, 06:14 AM	#34
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden Posts: 7,414	OK, let's make this short. What, exactly, do you want from society?
	__________________ Disagreement begets progress.

26th October 2010, 07:08 AM	#35
jiggeryqua Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,943	Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba OK, let's make this short. What, exactly, do you want from society? You think that would be short? ETA: Let's graciously assume you didn't actually mean everything I would want 'from' society (which is at least four assumptions), nor 'exactly' (which is not really an assumption because you can't have meant 'exactly' and 'short' and I'm sure you meant 'short'). My best effort at a concise expression of what I expect from society, at least in the terms of this thread, is 'continued progress'. Have at it, sir.
	Last edited by jiggeryqua; 26th October 2010 at 07:13 AM.