Happy Birthday Satan!

[Brattus]

OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.
I just thought it was a funny title.

Anyway, last night I was talking with a Christian friend and she told me that there were no true atheist.
She said that people who claim to be atheist are really Satan worshipers who are hiding behind the word atheist.

I have to be honest and say that I was a little offended.
Not because she was calling me a Satan worshiper but because she was calling me a Christian.

I tried to explain to her that to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
Needless to say she flipped out after I said that.

I guess I lost a friend over it. She was really nutty about a lot of other things anyway.
Who knows, maybe she needs to believe I am truly evil to help her cling to her beliefs.

So, was I wrong?

To be a Satan worshiper(if there even is such a thing) does one have to be a Christian?
Can the two things stand alone?

I can't see how they can but that's not saying much.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Brattus

So, was I wrong?

Yes, totally, instead of using your evil powers to beguile and philosophise you would have saved time by using them to seduce. That way anytime in the future you could have shut her up by using your evil power of manipulation by threatening to tell her friends thats she found atheists sexually attractive

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Brattus

OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.
I just thought it was a funny title.

i thought it was cute too

Quote:

Anyway, last night I was talking with a Christian friend and she told me that there were no true atheist.

in a sense that is true. As an atheist is usually a label given to another by a theist.

My pun is that an atheist is usually and evolved theist.

Quote:

She said that people who claim to be atheist are really Satan worshipers who are hiding behind the word atheist.

Funny as it seems to me the best way to observe an anti-christ is to watch a christian; they will lie to believe.

Read Matt 16:20

Quote:

I have to be honest and say that I was a little offended.
Not because she was calling me a Satan worshiper but because she was calling me a Christian.

cute.... now read John 14:30.... to get jesus' perspective

Quote:

I tried to explain to her that to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
Needless to say she flipped out after I said that.

I guess I lost a friend over it. She was really nutty about a lot of other things anyway.
Who knows, maybe she needs to believe I am truly evil to help her cling to her beliefs.

So, was I wrong?

nope

as many will be upset to find what they believed is true is actually poppy cop.

Which means, to be honest, will just ruin the day of many.

But think in my eyes, if there is no such thing as magic and the ends times were actually upon this earth, when a women brings here dying child to your feet and asked for magic to fix the child, who is going to be responsible for telling that woman magic is not the answer, nor will magic fix anything?

ie.... the religious will pay for futhering lies (one way or another)

Quote:

To be a Satan worshiper(if there even is such a thing) does one have to be a Christian?
Can the two things stand alone?

not in my eyes.....

i see the 2 as married as well.

To me, i believe it came from the lies that 'we the people' are not responsible for our actions. ie... that each of us is incapable of either good or bad, by choice. (that basis of separating mankind from his own personal responsibilities is what divided many from being responsible for their actions)

So to observe in the fashion that satan and christians are kind of married is evidenced in more ways than you can imagine.

ie... simply to false witness, is evil (in a real sense)

[TimCallahan]

To the degree that there are actually Satanists, yes, they would have to come from a Christian context and culture, but wouldn't necessarily have even originally been Christians. The important thing about Satanists, of whatever stripe, is that they are specifically reacting against Christianity.

You might point out to your friend that it is only in the Christian scriptures that "Satan" is even a name. In the Hebrew scriptures, this personage is referred to as ha satan, meaning "the adversary" or "the accuser." He was, in essence, God's prosecutor, rather than his enemy. In the Book of Enoch, written ca. 160 BCE, an angelic revolt is led by Shemhazi. One of the notable rebel angels is Azazel. Satan is not mentioned, because, even at that comparatively late date, he was still ha satan, God's prosecutor.

[Craig4]

I'm not sure how many times people I thought to be otherwise intelligent have asked if I worshiped the Devil when they learned I was an atheist. I should be used to it by now but my jaw always drops when I get asked that. Sure, sound bite fundamentalists will give you that but I don't expect thought from them. These would be educated people who should have the ability to reason through that it's hard to worship someone you don't believe in. Is this really the level of mainstream discussion we've reached on the topic of religion?

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

In the Book of Enoch, written ca. 160 BCE, an angelic revolt is led by Shemhazi. One of the notable rebel angels is Azazel. Satan is not mentioned, because, even at that comparatively late date, he was still ha satan, God's prosecutor.

He's called Satanail in 2 Enoch, which is around 350 years younger, thats the period of Satans creation right there, christianity invented him from half understood beliefs they had plagiarised in the same way that the old testament was created from the mythology of older cultures
nothing new under the sun is there

Originally Posted by Craig4

I'm not sure how many times people I thought to be otherwise intelligent have asked if I worshiped the Devil when they learned I was an atheist.

Silly silly, if theyd asked how many babes you'd eaten that week, at least you could have come up with a humourous retort

[Brattus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

Yes, totally, instead of using your evil powers to beguile and philosophise you would have saved time by using them to seduce. That way anytime in the future you could have shut her up by using your evil power of manipulation by threatening to tell her friends thats she found atheists sexually attractive

You caught me. I admit I was maintaining her friendship in hopes of getting a little sumthin sumthin.
She has got nice hooters!

But, she asked me point blank what my beliefs are.
I may be an evil Satan worshiper but I'm not a liar.
So I told her.

Now I'm not gonna be gettin' none o' that!

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Brattus

You caught me. I admit I was maintaining her friendship in hopes of getting a little sumthin sumthin.
She has got nice hooters!

But, she asked me point blank what my beliefs are.
I may be an evil Satan worshiper but I'm not a liar.
So I told her.

Now I'm not gonna be gettin' none o' that!

pffft, amateur, go round there tonight and tell her you found Jesus.

Tomorrow of course you can lose him again

[Brattus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

pffft, amateur, go round there tonight and tell her you found Jesus.

Tomorrow of course you can lose him again

LOL! You have caught me once again. I talk a good game but I could never do that.

Just because I don't share her or others religious beliefs does not mean I don't respect their right to maintain whatever world view they choose.

I have always been weak that way.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Brattus

LOL! You have caught me once again. I talk a good game but I could never do that.

Just because I don't share her or others religious beliefs does not mean I don't respect their right to maintain whatever world view they choose.

I have always been weak that way.

what about her sister ?

[Brattus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

what about her sister ?

LOL! I like the way you think!

[The Norseman]

Originally Posted by Marduk

what about her sister ?

I find your ideas interesting and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Brattus]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

To the degree that there are actually Satanists, yes, they would have to come from a Christian context and culture, but wouldn't necessarily have even originally been Christians. The important thing about Satanists, of whatever stripe, is that they are specifically reacting against Christianity

But it's all the same thing though right?
For them to believe in Satan they HAVE to believe in the Christian God.
To believe in the Christian God that would make them Christians.

Satan worshipers just express their Christian beliefs in a different manner than the typical Christians do.

[TubbaBlubba]

"You showed me Jesus, it's time for me to show you something."

[Didaktylos]

Originally Posted by Marduk

pffft, amateur, go round there tonight and tell her you found Jesus.

Tomorrow of course you can lose him again

I found Jesus once - he'd slipped down behind the sofa cushions, along with a couple of pens, about 20 pence in assorted copper change, half a comb and a rather dessicated apple core.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Brattus

But it's all the same thing though right?
For them to believe in Satan they HAVE to believe in the Christian God.
To believe in the Christian God that would make them Christians.

Satan worshipers just express their Christian beliefs in a different manner than the typical Christians do.

nope, the most well known and publicised satanists (LaVeyan) are also Atheists, Agnostics and Apatheists

Many groups just regard the name "Satan" as an easily identifiable figurehead around which to worship the nature of satan which the bible only mentions because he really existed, they tend to therefore regard the rest of Judaeo christianity as deluded

[Brattus]

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

"You showed me Jesus, it's time for me to show you something."

That's when she answers back. "OH God! OH God! OH God!"




Or so I would like to think.

[MG1962]

Originally Posted by Brattus

Satan worshipers just express their Christian beliefs in a different manner than the typical Christians do.

No they would be Satanist - Christian means follower of Christ. Buddhist is a follower of the teachings of Buddah, so and so forth.

[Brattus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

nope, the most well known and publicised satanists (LaVeyan) are also Atheists, Agnostics and Apatheists

Many groups just regard the name "Satan" as an easily identifiable figurehead around which to worship the nature of satan which the bible only mentions because he really existed, they tend to therefore regard the rest of Judaeo christianity as deluded

Well Marduk from reading some of your previous post I know you know what you're talking about here but I still don't get it.

How can an Atheist worship a God of any kind?
My understanding of the word worship is not living by some idea or ideals set up in fiction by a make believe being.

But rather to devote ones life and serve what is believed to be a real deity.

So to worship Satan as a Satan worshiper would do they would need to believe that Satan is a real deity that is part of the real world.
So if they believe Satan is real then how could they not believe in the Christian God?

Biblically speaking didn't God create Satan?
Like I said I don't get it.

[Brattus]

Originally Posted by MG1962

No they would be Satanist - Christian means follower of Christ. Buddhist is a follower of the teachings of Buddah, so and so forth.

Oh I see. OK. I never thought of that. Thanks! But a Satanist would still get their water from the same well as a Christian so to speak.

[Madalch]

Originally Posted by Brattus

That's when she answers back. "OH God! OH God! OH God!...

"...that's the cutest little thing I've ever seen!"

[Brattus]

Originally Posted by Madalch

"...that's the cutest little thing I've ever seen!"

Who told you about that? They said they were laughing because they just thought of a joke!
It's not that small! OK, sure I gotta see which hair the water comes out of before I can find it. But.....that's normal right?

I'm normal damn it!

Stop looking at me! Stop looking at me! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHH!

[Xephyr]

I think the problem with a lot of these theists is that they really truly can't comprehend the fact that some human beings have absolutely no need or desire whatsoever to "worship" anything.

They just can't seem to get their brains around that one.

A co-dependant type of person cannot imagine how someone else can exist completely independantly.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Xephyr

I think the problem with a lot of these theists is that they really truly can't comprehend the fact that some human beings have absolutely no need or desire whatsoever to "worship" anything.

oh boy are you single, or just in the wrong thread

[Illiadus]

I have a friend who doesn't believe in god but who sacrifices rabbits and then makes gloves and pants from the hides which he sells on e-bay, but then again maybe he's not a real satanist because he didn't want to go see Saw 3D yesterday.

[Fnord]

Originally Posted by Brattus

... to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.

I think you're on the right track with this, if you are no spot-on. Although it may be worth-while to point out similar personalities in other mythoi -- Shiva (the Hindu Destructor of Worlds) and Loki (the Norse Mischief-Maker) spring first to mind. To be fair, they do not play the exact same roles in their respective mythoi as does Satan in Christianity.

Even the Moslem Shai-Tan may have been derived from Christianity, or early Christian writers may have derived Satan from the Moslem precursor religions of the area.

Yes, I think you are on the right track.

[Cainkane1]

Originally Posted by Brattus

OK. I know that Halloween is not Satans birthday and never meant to be.
I just thought it was a funny title.

Anyway, last night I was talking with a Christian friend and she told me that there were no true atheist.
She said that people who claim to be atheist are really Satan worshipers who are hiding behind the word atheist.

I have to be honest and say that I was a little offended.
Not because she was calling me a Satan worshiper but because she was calling me a Christian.

I tried to explain to her that to be a Satan worshiper one has to be a Christian because Satan only lives in the fictitious world of Christianity.
Needless to say she flipped out after I said that.

I guess I lost a friend over it. She was really nutty about a lot of other things anyway.
Who knows, maybe she needs to believe I am truly evil to help her cling to her beliefs.

So, was I wrong?

To be a Satan worshiper(if there even is such a thing) does one have to be a Christian?
Can the two things stand alone?

I can't see how they can but that's not saying much.

The same thing happened to me when I disagreed with a friend about America being a Christian country. Goodbye friend. No big loss.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Fnord

I think you're on the right track with this, if you are no spot-on. Although it may be worth-while to point out similar personalities in other mythoi -- Shiva (the Hindu Destructor of Worlds) and Loki (the Norse Mischief-Maker) spring first to mind. To be fair, they do not play the exact same roles in their respective mythoi as does Satan in Christianity.

Even the Moslem Shai-Tan may have been derived from Christianity, or early Christian writers may have derived Satan from the Moslem precursor religions of the area.

Yes, I think you are on the right track.

http://www.themystica.com/mythical-f.../t/tiamat.html

Quote:

Some think Tiamat is a prototype of Satan. In this instance one might speculate that those thinking this might be over influenced by a Christian background. This comment emerges because of another ending of this myth: This is a paradoxical creation myth, even though the chaos-monster was slain and dismembered she remained the body of the universe and was manifest through her children, the gods and goddesses from whom Bel-Marduk received homage. Within this ending there occurs a transformation of evil to good; Tiamat is not entirely stripped of her good attributes, but rather they come out in her children. Perhaps this is why by some Marduk is considered a lord of magic.

In an evolutionary view of Tiamat those who favor the archetypal Satanic view of this primordial deity may be more correct. Initially her furor began with the murder of Apsu and grew fueled by the desire for revenge. Since she was a creator sea-dragon her surviving attributes would be inherited by her children and their children. Even though the deities paid homage to Marduk after he defeated her in their cosmic battle, the future generations might not give him and his successors such homage. The survival instinct of their paternal grandmother resides within them. Coupled with this is the belief that the blood of her second Kingu was used in creating humanity. Therefore her survival characteristics also survive in humanity and will naturally keep reappearing. This has been seen in Lilith and her children including Kali and Hecate. Such children through succubi and incubi copulated with mankind, generating those of 'true' free will and self-determination and self-control; those dancing to their own music, rebels.

When you add to this the claim of Tiamats appearence as a great red dragon and also that the Jews didn't come up with the concept of Satan until after the Babylonian diaspora I don't think anything else is in the frame

Tiamat was an adversary to heaven, the way you say that in Mesopotamian is SA.AN

[Illiadus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

http://www.themystica.com/mythical-f.../t/tiamat.html

When you add to this the claim of Tiamats appearence as a great red dragon and also that the Jews didn't come up with the concept of Satan until after the Babylonian diaspora I don't think anything else is in the frame

Tiamat was an adversary to heaven, the way you say that in Mesopotamian is SA.AN

Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ism/satan.html

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Illiadus

Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ism/satan.html

Originally that may be true, but then the Hebrews experienced Babylonian civilisation and the character of Satan changed when they saw how useful having a powerful adversary in their theology could be

you only need to read the book of Job to see how much, Satan is certainly a being in that book and that book appears in the Hebrew bible

[Illiadus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

Originally that may be true, but then the Hebrews experienced Babylonian civilisation and the character of Satan changed when they saw how useful having a powerful adversary in their theology could be

you only need to read the book of Job to see how much, Satan is certainly a being in that book and that book appears in the Hebrew bible

Not being Babylonian, I don't know how they perceived their deities and mythological creatures, but being Jewish I can tell you that there is no tradition of regarding Satan as a personal entity, and tradition is all there is when it comes to Judaism. The Torah is all about values.

It's the Christians who see devils and demons, angels and spirits.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Illiadus

Not being Babylonian, I don't know how they perceived their deities and mythological creatures, but being Jewish I can tell you that there is no tradition of regarding Satan as a personal entity, and tradition is all there is when it comes to Judaism. The Torah is all about values.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...d=270&letter=S
they apparently don't agree with you
and neither does the link you posted earlier

Quote:

Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham.

as I stated correctly earlier, he may not have started off as a personal entity, but he certainly became one
do you understand what the addition of "ha" to "satan" signifies ?

Originally Posted by Illiadus

It's the Christians who see devils and demons, angels and spirits.

what ?
Angels were added to Jewish theology during the babylonian diaspora
Devils and demons were believed in before the diaspora and spirits have always been a tenet of Jewish faith

Quote:

Rabbinical demonology has three classes of demons, though they are scarcely separable one from another. There were the shedim, the mazziḳim ("harmers"), and the ruḥin ("spirits"). Besides these there were lilin ("night spirits"), ṭelane ("shade", or "evening spirits"), ṭiharire ("midday spirits"), and ẓafrire ("morning spirits"), as well as the "demons that bring famine" and "such as cause storm and earthquake" (Targ. Yer. to Deuteronomy xxxii. 24 and Numbers vi. 24; Targ. to Cant. iii. 8, iv. 6; Eccl. ii. 5; Ps. xci. 5, 6.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon#Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dybbuk

[Illiadus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

Do you understand what the addition of "ha" to "satan" signifies ?

Do you?

[Illiadus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

and neither does the link you posted earlier

I've only posted one link. Don't make up links and say I'm confused, my friend.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Illiadus

Do you?

evasion noted
would you like to withdraw all your earlier claims now in light of the insurmountable conflicting evidence?

Originally Posted by Illiadus

I've only posted one link. Don't make up links and say I'm confused, my friend.

ok lets go over this slowly shall we
heres what you posted earlier including the one link I referenced, where did I say you supported any of the claims youve come out with, with more than one mans opinion (Ariel Scheib)

Originally Posted by Illiadus

Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ism/satan.html

please read it, it contradicts itself as you are now doing

Quote:

Throughout the Torah, Satan challenges God to test the true loyalty of his followers, including Adam and Eve, as well as Abraham. However, Satan remains inferior to God and is incapable of taking action on mortals without God’s permission. In the Talmud and Midrash, Satan appears as the force in the world, responsible for all sins

So satan isn't a being in Judaism, yet he can have conversations with God
You are confusing the Talmud and Midrash concepts with those of the Torah

when was the last time you read the book of Job ?
want me to provide a link ?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2701.htm
now make sure you read it, there might be a test later

or would you like to move on to your knowledge of Tiamat when earlier you said

Originally Posted by Illiadus

Satan isn’t a being in judaism and Tiamat doesn't represent the same things.

This implies you have some deep understanding of Babylonian mythology

[Illiadus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...d=270&letter=S
they apparently don't agree with you
and neither does the link you posted earlier

Oops. I thought that was my link. I'm sorry, let me just read this one and I'll get back to you.

[Marduk]

Originally Posted by Illiadus

Oops. I thought that was my link. I'm sorry, let me just read this one and I'll get back to you.

Just to be clear, we are discussing prototypes for satan, and his evolution which may not neccesarily be reflected in whatever modern distinction of Judaism youre from

[Illiadus]

Marduk, would you agree that the article in the Jewish encyclopedia shows that the old testament contains conflicting depictions of Satan regarding his ability to act independently of God, his place in physical reality, et c? If not, could you please sum up in 25 words or less the homogenic image you have of him, for reference.

If you agree that the OT is in conflict with itself regarding the character of Satan, don't you think my assertion that he is seen as the symbol of evil by most jewish readers, or is that just in my family?

If these questions are actually beside the point, could you just state the core of your argument so that I don't leave as ignorant as I came, because leaving I am.

[Illiadus]

Originally Posted by Marduk

Just to be clear, we are discussing prototypes for satan, and his evolution which may not neccesarily be reflected in whatever modern distinction of Judaism youre from

Okay, you answered my question so ignore the post below yours, please.

[Illiadus]

What about Santa Claus? How much of him did Coca Cola create?