Forgiven for what, eactly?

TimCallahan · 3rd November 2010, 01:23 PM

On another thread (Mohammed now the most popular boy's name in England), DOC responded to a comment by Hokulele that it was too bad God hadn't learned to turn the other cheek, with the following:

If you ask for forgiveness and are sincere he will.

So, here's what I'd like to know: For what , exactly, are we supposed to be asking forgiveness? Original sin (that we didn't commit)? Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are?

Or are we all guilty of grievous sins and acts of utter depravity that we are too dishonest to admit?

Rincewind · 3rd November 2010, 01:28 PM

Acts of utter depravity?

Where do I sign up?

Hellbound · 3rd November 2010, 01:31 PM

Well, see, God's a radical free market capitalist. See, it's not his fault he sold us shoddy goods (i.e.-iomperfect and defective souls). That's our fault as a buyer for not doing due diligence. Thus, if we want to upgrade to the premium model, we have to pay.

At least, that's how I read it.

Bishadi · 3rd November 2010, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

On another thread (Mohammed now the most popular boy's name in England), DOC responded to a comment by Hokulele that it was too bad God hadn't learned to turn the other cheek, with the following:

i say, if you are alive right now, god has forgiven. (which ever one you like)

Quote:

If you ask for forgiveness and are sincere he will.

who you relying on?

Mother nature is here providing. You breath, you eat, you are of 'it'...... So what or who you are asking from, is existence itself. Then 'we the people' are all a part of it.

Quote:

So, here's what I'd like to know: For what , exactly, are we supposed to be asking forgiveness? Original sin (that we didn't commit)? Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are?

Some say, ask god.... i dunno why. You and i know right n wrong by how we feel when we do it. (mostly) It is the guise of priority that enables a wrong to be done with no thought of responsibility.

To forgive is the dividend part as then when YOU are done wrong, YOU dont allow that action to live into your next. ie... if your car is broken into, do you lock it next time?

Asking for forgiveness is observing what YOU did and changing YOUR action in responsible awareness. ie.... to follow the basic rule of 'do unto others as you would have them done unto you' is how 'equality' can be known to exists in a comprehensible way.

Quote:

Or are we all guilty of grievous sins and acts of utter depravity that we are too dishonest to admit?

that one is hugenormous. ie... the invisible hand causes far more damage without virtue, than any single moster ever to exist. Ever hear the phrase "business has no conscious". It is an understanding that conflicts empathy of human beings. I will mention, that i are one 2. Sad but true!

Hokulele · 3rd November 2010, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

On another thread (Mohammed now the most popular boy's name in England), DOC responded to a comment by Hokulele that it was too bad God hadn't learned to turn the other cheek, with the following:

If you ask for forgiveness and are sincere he will.

So, here's what I'd like to know: For what , exactly, are we supposed to be asking forgiveness? Original sin (that we didn't commit)? Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are?

Or are we all guilty of grievous sins and acts of utter depravity that we are too dishonest to admit?

My guess is that I would need to ask forgiveness for not believing in him. Which makes asking him for forgiveness a bit, well, difficult.

Aitch · 3rd November 2010, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hokulele

My guess is that I would need to ask forgiveness for not believing in him. Which makes asking him for forgiveness a bit, well, difficult.

Isn't that a bit like the old 'soldier's prayer'? IE Oh God, if there is a God, please save my soul, if I have a soul.

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 02:14 PM

Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God.
That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God.

I Ratant · 3rd November 2010, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Rincewind

Acts of utter depravity?

Where do I sign up?

.
Acting utterly depraved is a venial sin.
BEING utterly depraved, now there's a SIN!

I Ratant · 3rd November 2010, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God.
That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God.

.
Even the little bitty babys pulled from the womb.
GUILTY!
In a mere seven (7) years they might reach the age of reason, and be able to understand and ask forgiveness.... for being born.

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
Even the little bitty babys pulled from the womb.
GUILTY!

No. Only free moral agents. Not infants.

sadhatter · 3rd November 2010, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God.
That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God.

Seeing as god is omnipotent, couldn't he just get rid of the concept of sin? Or hell, sin itself? Seems more of a loving option than condemning people to eternal torture, or nonexistance.

Gawdzilla · 3rd November 2010, 02:29 PM

I've broken all the Commandents at least once. Some hundreds of times.

Hey, God, forgive me! Or I'll break your face!

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by sadhatter

Seeing as god is omnipotent, couldn't he just get rid of the concept of sin? Or hell, sin itself? Seems more of a loving option than condemning people to eternal torture, or nonexistance.

Sin is wrapped up in free will, and the ability to make moral choices. In the absence of moral choice, there is no value in moral goodness.
You can argue that it's wrong for God to allow the existence of genuinely free moral agents, but I would disagree.

D'rok · 3rd November 2010, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God.
That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God.

What is god's will? Vote Repbulican? Save the whales? Don't eat shrimp? Kill all the Benjaminites?

It's so hard to tell.

sadhatter · 3rd November 2010, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

No. Only free moral agents. Not infants.

So uh, at what age does one gain this responsibility? And where in the bible have you found this information?

Dr. Keith · 3rd November 2010, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Sin is wrapped up in free will, and the ability to make moral choices. In the absence of moral choice, there is no value in moral goodness.
You can argue that it's wrong for God to allow the existence of genuinely free moral agents, but I would disagree.

So, in Heaven will you have sin or free will?

Resume · 3rd November 2010, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Sin is wrapped up in free will, and the ability to make moral choices. In the absence of moral choice, there is no value in moral goodness.
You can argue that it's wrong for God to allow the existence of genuinely free moral agents, but I would disagree.

No such thing as sin. However, it is immoral to try and sell this ******** to children, to make them feel guilty over perfectly normal actions like, I dunno, masturbation.

sadhatter · 3rd November 2010, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Sin is wrapped up in free will, and the ability to make moral choices. In the absence of moral choice, there is no value in moral goodness.
You can argue that it's wrong for God to allow the existence of genuinely free moral agents, but I would disagree.

But he is god, he could change the rules to make it so sin is not wrapped up in free will.

He is god you know, omnipotent and all that. If he wanted to he could demand the true scottsman unwrap sin from free will , with a squared circle, during the 33rd day of September , while making the sound of a tree falling in the woods with no one around to hear it.

MG1962 · 3rd November 2010, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are?

Invoking the all care and no responsibility clause huh

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 02:54 PM

Hey, lots of replies!

Originally Posted by sadhatter

So uh, at what age does one gain this responsibility? And where in the bible have you found this information?

I don't know. But I know that our sin is based on our own actions, not the actions of others. Original Sin is not Biblical.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

So, in Heaven will you have sin or free will?

I don't know. The Biblical understanding of the afterlife is extremely sketchy.

Originally Posted by Resume

No such thing as sin. However, it is immoral to try and sell this ******** to children, to make them feel guilty over perfectly normal actions like, I dunno, masturbation.

Masturbation isn't a sin.

Originally Posted by sadhatter

But he is god, he could change the rules to make it so sin is not wrapped up in free will.

He is god you know, omnipotent and all that. If he wanted to he could demand the true scottsman unwrap sin from free will , with a squared circle, during the 33rd day of September , while making the sound of a tree falling in the woods with no one around to hear it.

Not in this universe, He could not.
What the deal would be in some other universe, we don't know. It's not the one we're in.
But assuming that you can speculate on the nature of a universe different from this one, when we don't even begin to have any basis to render such conclusions, seems presumptuous to me.
Then whole idea that "God is omnipotent; he could have done things differently" doesn't sit with me -- because I'm confident that he couldn't have done things differently without changing the value of something valuable in the current system, and I have no idea what the implications of that are. Neither do you.

Gawdzilla · 3rd November 2010, 02:57 PM

Fictional being setting the rules for humans. What's wrong with this picture?

tsig · 3rd November 2010, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God.
That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God.

How can you know that?

tsig · 3rd November 2010, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

No. Only free moral agents. Not infants.

You seem to have a direct pipeline into the mind of god.

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

How can you know that?

Originally Posted by tsig

You seem to have a direct pipeline into the mind of god.

I'm explaining my beliefs which are based on my understanding of the Bible. No "direct pipeline" required; no special knowledge of all humans. Just a belief that the Bible is a true and accurate message from God.

tsig · 3rd November 2010, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Sin is wrapped up in free will, and the ability to make moral choices. In the absence of moral choice, there is no value in moral goodness.
You can argue that it's wrong for God to allow the existence of genuinely free moral agents, but I would disagree.

You're now speaking for god?

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

You're now speaking for god?

As I explained:

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I'm explaining my beliefs which are based on my understanding of the Bible. No "direct pipeline" required; no special knowledge of all humans. Just a belief that the Bible is a true and accurate message from God.

Robin · 3rd November 2010, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God.

How can an atheist have done anything in disobedience to God's will - even if there is a God?

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

How can an atheist have done anything in disobedience to God's will - even if there is a God?

The idea is that everyone has done something that they know to be morally wrong, whether or not they recognize God.

tsig · 3rd November 2010, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Hey, lots of replies!

I don't know. But I know that our sin is based on our own actions, not the actions of others. Original Sin is not Biblical.

I don't know. The Biblical understanding of the afterlife is extremely sketchy.

Masturbation isn't a sin.

Not in this universe, He could not.
What the deal would be in some other universe, we don't know. It's not the one we're in.
But assuming that you can speculate on the nature of a universe different from this one, when we don't even begin to have any basis to render such conclusions, seems presumptuous to me.
Then whole idea that "God is omnipotent; he could have done things differently" doesn't sit with me -- because I'm confident that he couldn't have done things differently without changing the value of something valuable in the current system, and I have no idea what the implications of that are. Neither do you.

Wow! Even the Pope isn't this infallible!

Robin · 3rd November 2010, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

I'm explaining my beliefs which are based on my understanding of the Bible. No "direct pipeline" required; no special knowledge of all humans. Just a belief that the Bible is a true and accurate message from God.

Including the part about slaughtering the population of any city where they worship a different God?

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

Wow! Even the Pope isn't this infallible!

There's no need to be insulting. More than half my answer was "I don't know;" I wouldn't exactly consider what I've been saying to be pontificating. Just expressing my best understanding.

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Robin

Including the part about slaughtering the population of any city where they worship a different God?

Yes, including those parts.

Robin · 3rd November 2010, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Yes, including those parts.

So someone plunging a sword through the heart of a screaming, terrified child might be performing a morally perfect act?

But when I look at someone to whom I am not married and feel sexual attraction I am being unspeakably evil?

The difference between a good and evil act is whether God approves of it or not?

Also, can an atheist be said to be disobeying God?

I Ratant · 3rd November 2010, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

You seem to have a direct pipeline into the mind of god.

.
Almost like the Phelps whelps with their knowledge of what god hates.

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 03:28 PM

At all points in history, the present culture's morality does not match God's. Without bothering with the details, I have no doubt you will find two situations where your belief in their moral value is opposite from the Bible's. This doesn't particularly concern me. Should it?
Whether or not a sincere atheist can disobey God depends on whether you include an intent element in the term. Atheists have a duty to act in accordance with God's will, and can act in opposition to it. That's all I mean by disobeying.

tsig · 3rd November 2010, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Hey, lots of replies!

I don't know. But I know that our sin is based on our own actions, not the actions of others. Original Sin is not Biblical.

I don't know. The Biblical understanding of the afterlife is extremely sketchy.

Masturbation isn't a sin.

Not in this universe, He could not.
What the deal would be in some other universe, we don't know. It's not the one we're in.
But assuming that you can speculate on the nature of a universe different from this one, when we don't even begin to have any basis to render such conclusions, seems presumptuous to me.
Then whole idea that "God is omnipotent; he could have done things differently" doesn't sit with me -- because I'm confident that he couldn't have done things differently without changing the value of something valuable in the current system, and I have no idea what the implications of that are. Neither do you.

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

There's no need to be insulting. More than half my answer was "I don't know;" I wouldn't exactly consider what I've been saying to be pontificating. Just expressing my best understanding.

The hilited sentences sounds to me like you're saying you know what god wants.

AvalonXQ · 3rd November 2010, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by tsig

The hilited sentences sounds to me like you're saying you know what god wants.

Yes. Because I believe what the Bible says about what God wants.

Resume · 3rd November 2010, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by AvalonXQ

Masturbation isn't a sin.

While I would agree with you here, seeing that there's no such thing as sin, some of you brethren in other cross-cult sects do indeed believe that whacking off is a no-no.

SumDood · 3rd November 2010, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

So, in Heaven will you have sin or free will?

Oh! Oh! Oh! I know! I know! One would have free will in heaven, but because one would be in the presence of the almighty, one would no longer have the will to sin. The blissfulness of his holiness will be greater than any sin here on earth.

I Ratant · 3rd November 2010, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Resume

While I would agree with you here, seeing that there's no such thing as sin, some of you brethren in other cross-cult sects do indeed believe that whacking off is a no-no.

.
Onan was killed by god for spilling seed!
Fortunately, that god has been kicked out of this universe.

(Although if the story could be examined for real, one might find the usual "god speaks through me" murderous "holy man", like Samuel, who decided who needed to be killed.

3rd November 2010, 01:23 PM	#1
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,123	Forgiven for what, eactly? On another thread (Mohammed now the most popular boy's name in England), DOC responded to a comment by Hokulele that it was too bad God hadn't learned to turn the other cheek, with the following: If you ask for forgiveness and are sincere he will. So, here's what I'd like to know: For what , exactly, are we supposed to be asking forgiveness? Original sin (that we didn't commit)? Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are? Or are we all guilty of grievous sins and acts of utter depravity that we are too dishonest to admit?
TimCallahan Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,123

3rd November 2010, 02:06 PM	#5
Hokulele Official Nemesis Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Trying to decide whether to set defenses against an army, or against mole rats. Posts: 27,265	Originally Posted by TimCallahan On another thread (Mohammed now the most popular boy's name in England), DOC responded to a comment by Hokulele that it was too bad God hadn't learned to turn the other cheek, with the following: If you ask for forgiveness and are sincere he will. So, here's what I'd like to know: For what , exactly, are we supposed to be asking forgiveness? Original sin (that we didn't commit)? Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are? Or are we all guilty of grievous sins and acts of utter depravity that we are too dishonest to admit? My guess is that I would need to ask forgiveness for not believing in him. Which makes asking him for forgiveness a bit, well, difficult.
	__________________ Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" Some person: "Why did you shoot that?" Yvette: "Blasty! Blasty! Blasty!" - Tragic Monkey

3rd November 2010, 02:14 PM	#7
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God. That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

3rd November 2010, 02:26 PM	#10
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by I Ratant . Even the little bitty babys pulled from the womb. GUILTY! No. Only free moral agents. Not infants.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

3rd November 2010, 02:26 PM	#11
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God. That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God. Seeing as god is omnipotent, couldn't he just get rid of the concept of sin? Or hell, sin itself? Seems more of a loving option than condemning people to eternal torture, or nonexistance.
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

3rd November 2010, 01:28 PM	#2
Rincewind Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,161	Acts of utter depravity? Where do I sign up?

3rd November 2010, 01:31 PM	#3
Hellbound Abiogenic Spongiform Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a handbasket Posts: 8,917	Well, see, God's a radical free market capitalist. See, it's not his fault he sold us shoddy goods (i.e.-iomperfect and defective souls). That's our fault as a buyer for not doing due diligence. Thus, if we want to upgrade to the premium model, we have to pay. At least, that's how I read it.

3rd November 2010, 01:59 PM	#4
Bishadi Banned Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Here Posts: 2,279	Originally Posted by TimCallahan On another thread (Mohammed now the most popular boy's name in England), DOC responded to a comment by Hokulele that it was too bad God hadn't learned to turn the other cheek, with the following: i say, if you are alive right now, god has forgiven. (which ever one you like) Quote: If you ask for forgiveness and are sincere he will. who you relying on? Mother nature is here providing. You breath, you eat, you are of 'it'...... So what or who you are asking from, is existence itself. Then 'we the people' are all a part of it. Quote: So, here's what I'd like to know: For what , exactly, are we supposed to be asking forgiveness? Original sin (that we didn't commit)? Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are? Some say, ask god.... i dunno why. You and i know right n wrong by how we feel when we do it. (mostly) It is the guise of priority that enables a wrong to be done with no thought of responsibility. To forgive is the dividend part as then when YOU are done wrong, YOU dont allow that action to live into your next. ie... if your car is broken into, do you lock it next time? Asking for forgiveness is observing what YOU did and changing YOUR action in responsible awareness. ie.... to follow the basic rule of 'do unto others as you would have them done unto you' is how 'equality' can be known to exists in a comprehensible way. Quote: Or are we all guilty of grievous sins and acts of utter depravity that we are too dishonest to admit? that one is hugenormous. ie... the invisible hand causes far more damage without virtue, than any single moster ever to exist. Ever hear the phrase "business has no conscious". It is an understanding that conflicts empathy of human beings. I will mention, that i are one 2. Sad but true!

3rd November 2010, 02:13 PM	#6
Aitch Guest Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: StAines Posts: 2,731	Originally Posted by Hokulele My guess is that I would need to ask forgiveness for not believing in him. Which makes asking him for forgiveness a bit, well, difficult. Isn't that a bit like the old 'soldier's prayer'? IE Oh God, if there is a God, please save my soul, if I have a soul.

3rd November 2010, 02:20 PM	#8
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by Rincewind Acts of utter depravity? Where do I sign up? . Acting utterly depraved is a venial sin. BEING utterly depraved, now there's a SIN!

3rd November 2010, 02:22 PM	#9
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God. That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God. . Even the little bitty babys pulled from the womb. GUILTY! In a mere seven (7) years they might reach the age of reason, and be able to understand and ask forgiveness.... for being born.

3rd November 2010, 02:29 PM	#12
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,376	I've broken all the Commandents at least once. Some hundreds of times. Hey, God, forgive me! Or I'll break your face!
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

3rd November 2010, 02:31 PM	#13
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by sadhatter Seeing as god is omnipotent, couldn't he just get rid of the concept of sin? Or hell, sin itself? Seems more of a loving option than condemning people to eternal torture, or nonexistance. Sin is wrapped up in free will, and the ability to make moral choices. In the absence of moral choice, there is no value in moral goodness. You can argue that it's wrong for God to allow the existence of genuinely free moral agents, but I would disagree.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

3rd November 2010, 02:35 PM	#14
D'rok Free Barbarian on The Land Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 6,233	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God. That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God. What is god's will? Vote Repbulican? Save the whales? Don't eat shrimp? Kill all the Benjaminites? It's so hard to tell.
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

3rd November 2010, 02:38 PM	#15
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ No. Only free moral agents. Not infants. So uh, at what age does one gain this responsibility? And where in the bible have you found this information?
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

3rd November 2010, 02:40 PM	#16
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 3,227	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Sin is wrapped up in free will, and the ability to make moral choices. In the absence of moral choice, there is no value in moral goodness. You can argue that it's wrong for God to allow the existence of genuinely free moral agents, but I would disagree. So, in Heaven will you have sin or free will?

3rd November 2010, 02:40 PM	#17
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,017	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Sin is wrapped up in free will, and the ability to make moral choices. In the absence of moral choice, there is no value in moral goodness. You can argue that it's wrong for God to allow the existence of genuinely free moral agents, but I would disagree. No such thing as sin. However, it is immoral to try and sell this ******** to children, to make them feel guilty over perfectly normal actions like, I dunno, masturbation.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,017

3rd November 2010, 02:42 PM	#18
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Sin is wrapped up in free will, and the ability to make moral choices. In the absence of moral choice, there is no value in moral goodness. You can argue that it's wrong for God to allow the existence of genuinely free moral agents, but I would disagree. But he is god, he could change the rules to make it so sin is not wrapped up in free will. He is god you know, omnipotent and all that. If he wanted to he could demand the true scottsman unwrap sin from free will , with a squared circle, during the 33rd day of September , while making the sound of a tree falling in the woods with no one around to hear it.
sadhatter Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 5,743

3rd November 2010, 02:42 PM	#19
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by TimCallahan Not being perfect, when we are supposedly made the way we are by the God who has to forgive us for being what we are? Invoking the all care and no responsibility clause huh

3rd November 2010, 02:54 PM	#20
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Hey, lots of replies! Originally Posted by sadhatter So uh, at what age does one gain this responsibility? And where in the bible have you found this information? I don't know. But I know that our sin is based on our own actions, not the actions of others. Original Sin is not Biblical. Originally Posted by Dr. Keith So, in Heaven will you have sin or free will? I don't know. The Biblical understanding of the afterlife is extremely sketchy. Originally Posted by Resume No such thing as sin. However, it is immoral to try and sell this ****** to children, to make them feel guilty over perfectly normal actions like, I dunno, masturbation. Masturbation isn't a sin. Originally Posted by sadhatter** But he is god, he could change the rules to make it so sin is not wrapped up in free will. He is god you know, omnipotent and all that. If he wanted to he could demand the true scottsman unwrap sin from free will , with a squared circle, during the 33rd day of September , while making the sound of a tree falling in the woods with no one around to hear it. Not in this universe, He could not. What the deal would be in some other universe, we don't know. It's not the one we're in. But assuming that you can speculate on the nature of a universe different from this one, when we don't even begin to have any basis to render such conclusions, seems presumptuous to me. Then whole idea that "God is omnipotent; he could have done things differently" doesn't sit with me -- because I'm confident that he couldn't have done things differently without changing the value of something valuable in the current system, and I have no idea what the implications of that are. Neither do you.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Last edited by AvalonXQ; 3rd November 2010 at 02:55 PM.

3rd November 2010, 02:57 PM	#21
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,376	Fictional being setting the rules for humans. What's wrong with this picture?
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

3rd November 2010, 02:57 PM	#22
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,698	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God. That sin separates us from God. We must seek forgiveness to reconnect with God. How can you know that?

3rd November 2010, 02:58 PM	#23
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,698	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ No. Only free moral agents. Not infants. You seem to have a direct pipeline into the mind of god.

3rd November 2010, 03:00 PM	#24
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by tsig How can you know that? Originally Posted by tsig You seem to have a direct pipeline into the mind of god. I'm explaining my beliefs which are based on my understanding of the Bible. No "direct pipeline" required; no special knowledge of all humans. Just a belief that the Bible is a true and accurate message from God.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

3rd November 2010, 03:01 PM	#26
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by tsig You're now speaking for god? As I explained: Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I'm explaining my beliefs which are based on my understanding of the Bible. No "direct pipeline" required; no special knowledge of all humans. Just a belief that the Bible is a true and accurate message from God.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

3rd November 2010, 03:01 PM	#27
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Every free moral agent on Earth has willfully committed an evil act, in disobedience to God's will and our responsibilities to God. How can an atheist have done anything in disobedience to God's will - even if there is a God?
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

3rd November 2010, 03:03 PM	#28
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Robin How can an atheist have done anything in disobedience to God's will - even if there is a God? The idea is that everyone has done something that they know to be morally wrong, whether or not they recognize God.
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3rd November 2010, 03:03 PM	#29
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,698	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Hey, lots of replies! I don't know. But I know that our sin is based on our own actions, not the actions of others. Original Sin is not Biblical. I don't know. The Biblical understanding of the afterlife is extremely sketchy. Masturbation isn't a sin. Not in this universe, He could not. What the deal would be in some other universe, we don't know. It's not the one we're in. But assuming that you can speculate on the nature of a universe different from this one, when we don't even begin to have any basis to render such conclusions, seems presumptuous to me. Then whole idea that "God is omnipotent; he could have done things differently" doesn't sit with me -- because I'm confident that he couldn't have done things differently without changing the value of something valuable in the current system, and I have no idea what the implications of that are. Neither do you. Wow! Even the Pope isn't this infallible!

3rd November 2010, 03:03 PM	#30
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ I'm explaining my beliefs which are based on my understanding of the Bible. No "direct pipeline" required; no special knowledge of all humans. Just a belief that the Bible is a true and accurate message from God. Including the part about slaughtering the population of any city where they worship a different God?
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"

3rd November 2010, 03:05 PM	#31
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by tsig Wow! Even the Pope isn't this infallible! There's no need to be insulting. More than half my answer was "I don't know;" I wouldn't exactly consider what I've been saying to be pontificating. Just expressing my best understanding.
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3rd November 2010, 03:08 PM	#32
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	Originally Posted by Robin Including the part about slaughtering the population of any city where they worship a different God? Yes, including those parts.
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3rd November 2010, 03:16 PM	#33
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Yes, including those parts. So someone plunging a sword through the heart of a screaming, terrified child might be performing a morally perfect act? But when I look at someone to whom I am not married and feel sexual attraction I am being unspeakably evil? The difference between a good and evil act is whether God approves of it or not? Also, can an atheist be said to be disobeying God?
Robin Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,541	__________________ The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax" Last edited by Robin; 3rd November 2010 at 03:19 PM.

3rd November 2010, 03:26 PM	#34
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by tsig You seem to have a direct pipeline into the mind of god. . Almost like the Phelps whelps with their knowledge of what god hates.

3rd November 2010, 03:28 PM	#35
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853	At all points in history, the present culture's morality does not match God's. Without bothering with the details, I have no doubt you will find two situations where your belief in their moral value is opposite from the Bible's. This doesn't particularly concern me. Should it? Whether or not a sincere atheist can disobey God depends on whether you include an intent element in the term. Atheists have a duty to act in accordance with God's will, and can act in opposition to it. That's all I mean by disobeying.
AvalonXQ Guest Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 11,853

3rd November 2010, 03:45 PM	#36
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 26,698	Originally Posted by AvalonXQ Hey, lots of replies! I don't know. But I know that our sin is based on our own actions, not the actions of others. Original Sin is not Biblical. I don't know. The Biblical understanding of the afterlife is extremely sketchy. Masturbation isn't a sin. Not in this universe, He could not. What the deal would be in some other universe, we don't know. It's not the one we're in. But assuming that you can speculate on the nature of a universe different from this one, when we don't even begin to have any basis to render such conclusions, seems presumptuous to me. Then whole idea that "God is omnipotent; he could have done things differently" doesn't sit with me -- because I'm confident that he couldn't have done things differently without changing the value of something valuable in the current system, and I have no idea what the implications of that are. Neither do you. Originally Posted by AvalonXQ There's no need to be insulting. More than half my answer was "I don't know;" I wouldn't exactly consider what I've been saying to be pontificating. Just expressing my best understanding. The hilited sentences sounds to me like you're saying you know what god wants.