Ursus Americanus Familiaris

dogjones · 8th November 2010, 05:56 AM

So apparently bears are hanging around humanity quite a bit now, which is making them fat and lazy and also endangering them rather.

I believe the prevailing theory of how dogs were domesticated tells a rather similar story - wolves started hanging around human camps eating our garbage, wolf/human contact got closer and closer as was mutually beneficial, and eventually got close enough for selective breeding to come into play, creating the modern dog.

Of course our modern society is markedly different from the hunter-gatherer camps that this process would have happened in - bears appear to be more of a pest than a benefit (apart from the thrill of seeing them). Wolves are also possibly more predisposed to domestication because of their pack mentality.

Nonetheless I wonder if a species of "bogs" could ever emerge from bear/human contact.

How many generations would it take? And what would they look like? (Belyaev's experiments with foxes of course spring to mind.) Really big furry dogs with the added ability of climbing trees - cool! The "bog"/cat power balance would be totally thrown out of whack - cats would be screwed. Or actually, perhaps there would be just lots of scratched bog noses.

Or they could be more like cats. Or something totally different. I wonder what kind of bearish behaviours would be amplified amusingly, endearingly or usefully (to humans) in a bog.

Happy Monday!

Gawdzilla · 8th November 2010, 05:59 AM

I suspect they're more opportunistic than they are heading down the trail to domestication. They cluster at food sources regardless of the source, c.f. the grizzlies at the annual salmon run.

dogjones · 8th November 2010, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

I suspect they're more opportunistic than they are heading down the trail to domestication. They cluster at food sources regardless of the source, c.f. the grizzlies at the annual salmon run.

Oh, sure. Just playing with the idea, zall.

Mark6 · 8th November 2010, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

I suspect they're more opportunistic than they are heading down the trail to domestication. They cluster at food sources regardless of the source, c.f. the grizzlies at the annual salmon run.

The difference is, bears who are somehow destructive to salmon run do not get shot. Bears destructive to THIS food source do. Selective pressure exists, but I am not sure what it will lead to.

Gawdzilla · 8th November 2010, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by dogjones

Oh, sure. Just playing with the idea, zall.

Understood, just tossing out my view on the larger issue. I volunteer at the Endangered Wolf Center (endangeredwolfcenter.org) and we stress that wild animals are wild and should be considered in that light.

If you want an animal that would be more interesting and quite possibly heading down the domestic path, look at tigers.

dogjones · 8th November 2010, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Gawdzilla

Understood, just tossing out my view on the larger issue. I volunteer at the Endangered Wolf Center (endangeredwolfcenter.org) and we stress that wild animals are wild and should be considered in that light.

If you want an animal that would be more interesting and quite possibly heading down the domestic path, look at tigers.

Do tell?

Gawdzilla · 8th November 2010, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by dogjones

Do tell?

Breed quite well in captivity. Willing to forgo hunting for "play time" (stalk and capture, but not kill). Accept humans as the dominant.

Plus if we keep playing with ligers and tigons, etc., we might find a type that won't eat their humans if they get angry.

8th November 2010, 05:56 AM	#1
dogjones Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bermuda Posts: 1,281	Ursus Americanus Familiaris So apparently bears are hanging around humanity quite a bit now, which is making them fat and lazy and also endangering them rather. I believe the prevailing theory of how dogs were domesticated tells a rather similar story - wolves started hanging around human camps eating our garbage, wolf/human contact got closer and closer as was mutually beneficial, and eventually got close enough for selective breeding to come into play, creating the modern dog. Of course our modern society is markedly different from the hunter-gatherer camps that this process would have happened in - bears appear to be more of a pest than a benefit (apart from the thrill of seeing them). Wolves are also possibly more predisposed to domestication because of their pack mentality. Nonetheless I wonder if a species of "bogs" could ever emerge from bear/human contact. How many generations would it take? And what would they look like? (Belyaev's experiments with foxes of course spring to mind.) Really big furry dogs with the added ability of climbing trees - cool! The "bog"/cat power balance would be totally thrown out of whack - cats would be screwed. Or actually, perhaps there would be just lots of scratched bog noses. Or they could be more like cats. Or something totally different. I wonder what kind of bearish behaviours would be amplified amusingly, endearingly or usefully (to humans) in a bog. Happy Monday!
	__________________ It's great being ideologically flexible. Last edited by dogjones; 8th November 2010 at 05:58 AM.

8th November 2010, 05:59 AM	#2
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,351	I suspect they're more opportunistic than they are heading down the trail to domestication. They cluster at food sources regardless of the source, c.f. the grizzlies at the annual salmon run.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

8th November 2010, 06:03 AM	#3
dogjones Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bermuda Posts: 1,281	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla I suspect they're more opportunistic than they are heading down the trail to domestication. They cluster at food sources regardless of the source, c.f. the grizzlies at the annual salmon run. Oh, sure. Just playing with the idea, zall.
	__________________ It's great being ideologically flexible.

8th November 2010, 06:08 AM	#4
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,171	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla I suspect they're more opportunistic than they are heading down the trail to domestication. They cluster at food sources regardless of the source, c.f. the grizzlies at the annual salmon run. The difference is, bears who are somehow destructive to salmon run do not get shot. Bears destructive to THIS food source do. Selective pressure exists, but I am not sure what it will lead to.
Mark6 Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,171	__________________ Gamemaster: "A horde of rotting zombies is shambling toward you. The sign over the door says 'Accounting'"

8th November 2010, 06:08 AM	#5
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,351	Originally Posted by dogjones Oh, sure. Just playing with the idea, zall. Understood, just tossing out my view on the larger issue. I volunteer at the Endangered Wolf Center (endangeredwolfcenter.org) and we stress that wild animals are wild and should be considered in that light. If you want an animal that would be more interesting and quite possibly heading down the domestic path, look at tigers.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

8th November 2010, 06:43 AM	#6
dogjones Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Bermuda Posts: 1,281	Originally Posted by Gawdzilla Understood, just tossing out my view on the larger issue. I volunteer at the Endangered Wolf Center (endangeredwolfcenter.org) and we stress that wild animals are wild and should be considered in that light. If you want an animal that would be more interesting and quite possibly heading down the domestic path, look at tigers. Do tell?
	__________________ It's great being ideologically flexible.

8th November 2010, 06:46 AM	#7
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,351	Originally Posted by dogjones Do tell? Breed quite well in captivity. Willing to forgo hunting for "play time" (stalk and capture, but not kill). Accept humans as the dominant. Plus if we keep playing with ligers and tigons, etc., we might find a type that won't eat their humans if they get angry.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした