The Sky Gods are Angry

little grey rabbit · 9th November 2010, 03:10 PM

Most people are familiar with the story about the intrepid explorer bound and sentenced to death by the ignorant, foolish, benighted village people. Who, having thoughtfully stashed away an Almanac in his backpack, consults it and seeing an eclipse approaching tells everybody the Sky Gods are angry, but if they let him go their anger will be appeased and the moon or sun will reappear again.

A brilliant ruse, although it is dependent on being captured in the vicinity of a utilitarian astronomical event.

What are the different versions....and what is the Ur-version of this story.

The versions I know are
Mark Twain: A Connecticut Yankee in the Court of King Arthur
Tintin in Peru
James Bruce, if I recall correctly, told a version starring himself in Ethiopia
Christopher Columbus apparently included a version in his journals.

(which would make Chris the oldest one I am aware of).

Do people know other versions or older version?

Dorcas · 9th November 2010, 11:48 PM

There is an Enid Blyton version but thankfully I can't recall the details.

The Don · 10th November 2010, 05:24 AM

I also read from somewhere (Pratchett ?) that "primitive" tribes are often very aware of upcoming astrological events and such stunts are unlikely to be successful

TragicMonkey · 10th November 2010, 08:33 AM

If I were a primitive tribe and somebody made the sun disappear with magic, I'd assume the way to bring it back would be to kill that person quickly so as to stop their doing magic.

Has the Columbus version been proven? I mean, we know where and when eclipses were visible, has anybody matched them up to his travels to see if there even was one when he said there was?

Piscivore · 10th November 2010, 08:43 AM

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...venientEclipse

Foster Zygote · 10th November 2010, 08:57 AM

Years ago I saw a Sergio Aragones strip depicting the archetypal pith helmeted explorer tied to a stake in the middle of a native village. As they are about to set fire to the wood piled at his feet he looks up to see an eclipse beginning. He shouts at them and gesticulates angrily and they turn to see the sun getting dark. They then run frantically into their various huts to the relief of the explorer, only to emerge moments later with various types of pin-hole viewers with which to watch the eclipse.

Safe-Keeper · 10th November 2010, 09:11 AM

I like the Don Rosa parody quoted in the TVTropes link above

.

kookbreaker · 13th November 2010, 07:16 PM

There was the eclipse during the battle if Isandlwana. If anything it helped the Zulus who liked night fighting and made it harder for the British to see the Zulus.

MG1962 · 13th November 2010, 07:25 PM

There was a wonderful science fiction story from the 60's - A NASA investigation team was deep in the Amazon jungle looking for a capsule and astronaut. They find the village the astronaut made contact with.

He'd played the God gambit and predicted a solar eclipse, hence establishing he was indeed a God

Only problem, this particular culture ate their Gods LOL

HansMustermann · 16th November 2010, 02:44 AM

I'd assume that a tribal culture would not be able to predict an eclipse, actually. Look at how long it took the Mayans to even nail the number of days in a year. And before agriculture there'd really be not much need to bother with a calendar and whatnot. Things just happen when they do, and that's that.

I'd assume that a bigger problem with a god gambit would be: essentially it's your word against the local sociopath who makes a living by BS-ing even the small circle of friends he lives with and who trust him. Right, the shaman. Remember that a pre-requisite for that job would be to be able to tell those guys with a straight face "oh yeah, I talked to the rabbit spirits and they agreed to send more rabits for our hunters" and a few days later "err, yeah, they did send more rabbits, but the evil shaman of the next tribe used his evil magicks to keep them away from you. Go kill a few of them to teach them a lesson." (Such accusations of evil magic seem to be the #1 reason for endemic warfare among the Ya̧nomamö, for example.)

Really, that guy's job is to BS with a straight face and have a spiritual answer to everything. And if in doubt, deflect blame to someone else, e.g., the next tribe, evil spirits, or this new guy in funny clothes claiming to talk to strange gods. It's institutionalized sociopathy by any other name. Sorta like the CEO job nowadays

And basically the claim there is that your magic is stronger than his. That you can command the sun spirit, when he makes up commanding rabbit spirits and antelope spirits. You're practically gunning for his job.

I would pretty much expect him to either call your bluff and make up his own "I'll go talk to the sun spirit and convince him to come back" BS while waiting to see what happens next, or come up with obvious solutions like "let's torture this evil shaman until he gives the sun back." Remember that brutal reprisals for even unsupported accusations of lesser evil magic are the status quo there.

little grey rabbit · 23rd November 2010, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

If I were a primitive tribe and somebody made the sun disappear with magic, I'd assume the way to bring it back would be to kill that person quickly so as to stop their doing magic.

Has the Columbus version been proven? I mean, we know where and when eclipses were visible, has anybody matched them up to his travels to see if there even was one when he said there was?

I don't know anyone has specifically challenged this story, but some people have looked at his claimed navigation techniques and found them wanting

http://www.christopher-columbus.eu/n...-longitude.htm

Quote:

Using these clues and a sandglass, Columbus should have been able to determine the correct local time of an eclipse to within about ten minutes. However Columbus's eclipse timing longitudes are off by much greater amounts than this. His 1494 longitude had an error of an hour and 20 minutes. Columbus's error in 1504 is even worse from Jamaica, his error was two and a half hours.

The best way to explain the errors is to assume that Columbus didn't really use the lunar eclipses at all. He worked out his longitude by dead reckoning and fiddled the figures for the eclipses to agree with the distance he had sailed, converted to longitude on the basis of what size he thought he world was. He used his dead-reckoning distances, and claimed that they were celestially determined. This was probably done to make his results look respectable.

It's not as bad as the errors of eclipses in the Venomous Bede's chronicle. He described one eclipse in the 500s or 600s as having made the stars appear during the daytime. If you look at the Nasa page, it may have covered around 10% of the Sun if you were in the Isle of Wight (the Venomous Bede was based in Northumberland IIRC).

Quote:

A.D. 540. This year the sun was eclipsed on the twelfth day
before the calends of July; and the stars showed themselves full
nigh half an hour over nine.

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsearc...p?Ecl=05400620

I am guessing at the time Columbus and these chronicles was released they had sufficient knowledge to calculate the eclipses but their placement on the earth was sketchy.

9th November 2010, 03:10 PM	#1
little grey rabbit Banned Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,167	The Sky Gods are Angry Most people are familiar with the story about the intrepid explorer bound and sentenced to death by the ignorant, foolish, benighted village people. Who, having thoughtfully stashed away an Almanac in his backpack, consults it and seeing an eclipse approaching tells everybody the Sky Gods are angry, but if they let him go their anger will be appeased and the moon or sun will reappear again. A brilliant ruse, although it is dependent on being captured in the vicinity of a utilitarian astronomical event. What are the different versions....and what is the Ur-version of this story. The versions I know are Mark Twain: A Connecticut Yankee in the Court of King Arthur Tintin in Peru James Bruce, if I recall correctly, told a version starring himself in Ethiopia Christopher Columbus apparently included a version in his journals. (which would make Chris the oldest one I am aware of). Do people know other versions or older version?
	Last edited by little grey rabbit; 9th November 2010 at 03:54 PM.

9th November 2010, 11:48 PM	#2
Dorcas New Blood Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 22	There is an Enid Blyton version but thankfully I can't recall the details.
Dorcas New Blood Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 22

10th November 2010, 08:33 AM	#4
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,071	If I were a primitive tribe and somebody made the sun disappear with magic, I'd assume the way to bring it back would be to kill that person quickly so as to stop their doing magic. Has the Columbus version been proven? I mean, we know where and when eclipses were visible, has anybody matched them up to his travels to see if there even was one when he said there was?
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

10th November 2010, 08:43 AM	#5
Piscivore Smelling fishy Join Date: May 2004 Location: Home is wherever I'm with you Posts: 26,457	http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...venientEclipse
	__________________ It's always been Wankershim. "...untrustworthy obnoxious twerp." - CFLarsen

10th November 2010, 08:57 AM	#6
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,393	Years ago I saw a Sergio Aragones strip depicting the archetypal pith helmeted explorer tied to a stake in the middle of a native village. As they are about to set fire to the wood piled at his feet he looks up to see an eclipse beginning. He shouts at them and gesticulates angrily and they turn to see the sun getting dark. They then run frantically into their various huts to the relief of the explorer, only to emerge moments later with various types of pin-hole viewers with which to watch the eclipse.
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

10th November 2010, 05:24 AM	#3
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,235	I also read from somewhere (Pratchett ?) that "primitive" tribes are often very aware of upcoming astrological events and such stunts are unlikely to be successful

10th November 2010, 09:11 AM	#7
Safe-Keeper Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sogndal, Norway Posts: 7,111	I like the Don Rosa parody quoted in the TVTropes link above .

13th November 2010, 07:16 PM	#8
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	There was the eclipse during the battle if Isandlwana. If anything it helped the Zulus who liked night fighting and made it harder for the British to see the Zulus.
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,177	__________________ Thanks for helping me win Best Children's Gifts and Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011 & 2012! Spectrum Scientifics - My store - Google it people!

13th November 2010, 07:25 PM	#9
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	There was a wonderful science fiction story from the 60's - A NASA investigation team was deep in the Amazon jungle looking for a capsule and astronaut. They find the village the astronaut made contact with. He'd played the God gambit and predicted a solar eclipse, hence establishing he was indeed a God Only problem, this particular culture ate their Gods LOL

16th November 2010, 02:44 AM	#10
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,844	I'd assume that a tribal culture would not be able to predict an eclipse, actually. Look at how long it took the Mayans to even nail the number of days in a year. And before agriculture there'd really be not much need to bother with a calendar and whatnot. Things just happen when they do, and that's that. I'd assume that a bigger problem with a god gambit would be: essentially it's your word against the local sociopath who makes a living by BS-ing even the small circle of friends he lives with and who trust him. Right, the shaman. Remember that a pre-requisite for that job would be to be able to tell those guys with a straight face "oh yeah, I talked to the rabbit spirits and they agreed to send more rabits for our hunters" and a few days later "err, yeah, they did send more rabbits, but the evil shaman of the next tribe used his evil magicks to keep them away from you. Go kill a few of them to teach them a lesson." (Such accusations of evil magic seem to be the #1 reason for endemic warfare among the Ya̧nomamö, for example.) Really, that guy's job is to BS with a straight face and have a spiritual answer to everything. And if in doubt, deflect blame to someone else, e.g., the next tribe, evil spirits, or this new guy in funny clothes claiming to talk to strange gods. It's institutionalized sociopathy by any other name. Sorta like the CEO job nowadays And basically the claim there is that your magic is stronger than his. That you can command the sun spirit, when he makes up commanding rabbit spirits and antelope spirits. You're practically gunning for his job. I would pretty much expect him to either call your bluff and make up his own "I'll go talk to the sun spirit and convince him to come back" BS while waiting to see what happens next, or come up with obvious solutions like "let's torture this evil shaman until he gives the sun back." Remember that brutal reprisals for even unsupported accusations of lesser evil magic are the status quo there.

23rd November 2010, 03:02 PM	#11
little grey rabbit Banned Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 3,167	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey If I were a primitive tribe and somebody made the sun disappear with magic, I'd assume the way to bring it back would be to kill that person quickly so as to stop their doing magic. Has the Columbus version been proven? I mean, we know where and when eclipses were visible, has anybody matched them up to his travels to see if there even was one when he said there was? I don't know anyone has specifically challenged this story, but some people have looked at his claimed navigation techniques and found them wanting http://www.christopher-columbus.eu/n...-longitude.htm Quote: Using these clues and a sandglass, Columbus should have been able to determine the correct local time of an eclipse to within about ten minutes. However Columbus's eclipse timing longitudes are off by much greater amounts than this. His 1494 longitude had an error of an hour and 20 minutes. Columbus's error in 1504 is even worse from Jamaica, his error was two and a half hours. The best way to explain the errors is to assume that Columbus didn't really use the lunar eclipses at all. He worked out his longitude by dead reckoning and fiddled the figures for the eclipses to agree with the distance he had sailed, converted to longitude on the basis of what size he thought he world was. He used his dead-reckoning distances, and claimed that they were celestially determined. This was probably done to make his results look respectable. It's not as bad as the errors of eclipses in the Venomous Bede's chronicle. He described one eclipse in the 500s or 600s as having made the stars appear during the daytime. If you look at the Nasa page, it may have covered around 10% of the Sun if you were in the Isle of Wight (the Venomous Bede was based in Northumberland IIRC). Quote: A.D. 540. This year the sun was eclipsed on the twelfth day before the calends of July; and the stars showed themselves full nigh half an hour over nine. http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsearc...p?Ecl=05400620 I am guessing at the time Columbus and these chronicles was released they had sufficient knowledge to calculate the eclipses but their placement on the earth was sketchy.