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Thunder · 15th November 2010, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by UWdude

I was trading in the stock market, and arguing with friends whole heartedly about the wonders of free market capitalism in 2008.

Then came the bailouts.

Now I see the truth.

forgive me if I am less than convinced by your story.

its a weee bit too convenient to be true.

MarkCorrigan · 15th November 2010, 04:27 PM

So, why on earth did you start up what is essentially a repeat of a thread where you got thoroughly spanked?

Are you a troll, a masochist, or deluded enough to think you actually know what you're talking about?

Rufo · 15th November 2010, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by UWdude

Sure does. Fortunately, some advocate violence, and some do not. Those that do not, think that words and money can stop the inevitable reality, while those that do, believe that inevitably reality will be shaped by more than words and money.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean to say by this, but I think there are other actions people advocate besides words, money and violence. I wouldn't support any ideology which suggests violence as the only viable course of action on a large scale.

Thunder · 15th November 2010, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Are you a troll, a masochist, or deluded enough to think you actually know what you're talking about?

I don't think I like your tone. Adjust it if you ever expect or desire a response from me.

UWdude · 15th November 2010, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

forgive me if I am less than convinced by your story.

its a weee bit too convenient to be true.

convenient? Convenient for what? You don't think people can switch ideologies after seeing gross injustice?

Would you believe I loved and donated money to Ron Paul? Was Ron Paul 100% pro-free market? Does it make sense now?

I still love Ron Paul, but now I think electing him would be a disaster. Not because of what he believes, but because I see how this crooked system works. If Ron Paul were elected, we would get all of his right wing economic policies, but none of his left wing foreign policies implemented.

Thunder · 15th November 2010, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by UWdude

You don't think people can switch ideologies after seeing gross injustice?

free-market lovers don't just switch sides over night.

and if they do, then they were never really fans of the free-market, or they have no real clue about Socialism.

UWdude · 15th November 2010, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Rufo

I wouldn't support any ideology which suggests violence as the only viable course of action on a large scale.

People are afraid of violence. They buy into the lie that slaves fighting their masters is as reprehensible as masters beating their slaves. Voting and activism will achieve nothing. The bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight.

MarkCorrigan · 15th November 2010, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

I don't think I like your tone. Adjust it if you ever expect or desire a response from me.

Well since you dodge questions, leap around trying to toy with people (and failing, by the way, noone gets angry with your antics, they're just pathetic) and lie like a rug I suppose I shouldn't expect a response.

UWdude · 15th November 2010, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

free-market lovers don't just switch sides over night.

Shows what you know.
I did. And I wasn't just an ideologue, I was also an activist for the Libertarian party for years.
I wouldn't be surprised if many other people did too after the bailouts. I bet you right now there are people who are listening to the whining and moaning of socialists and communists, who used to buy all the free market utopianism, but now are living the free market reality, and thinking, "yeah, why do I support an ideology that merely enriches the wealthy?"

Thunder · 15th November 2010, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by UWdude

Voting and activism will achieve nothing.

tell that to women and blacks, who used to not have the right to vote.

tell that to the environmental movement.

tell that to the Pro-Choice movement.

tell that to the anti-Vietnam War movement.

tell that to the pro-Union movement in Poland during the 1980s.

tell that to the East Germans.

tell that to the Czechs.

tell that to the Russians, who killed the coup in 1991 through mostly non-violent protests.

tell that to the folks who ended Apartheid in South Africa.

tell that to the Indians, who kicked out the British.

the number of non-violent victories over tyranny and injustice throughout the world is large and growing.

MarkCorrigan · 15th November 2010, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

free-market lovers don't just switch sides over night.

and if they do, then they were never really fans of the free-market, or they have no real clue about Socialism.

This coming from the guy who thinks the USSR and Maoist China were actually Socialist?

Hilarity.

UWdude · 15th November 2010, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

tell that to.....

The bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight.

BTW, many of your listed victories were one group of elites exchanged for another, or took generations to achieve. If you want justice, voting and activism is the long way around, and usually requires you letting the perpetrators of injustice free and without loss.

The French in 1789 and Bolsheviks in 1917 weren't so kind, nor should they have been.

It was only 16 years ago that majority rule was finally implemented in South Africa, and even then, the structure of white power and domination is so entrenched that the Africans of South Africa have no real freedom, they are still beholden to the white people that own most of the wealth, therefore jobs, therefore power. I would not shed any tears if a massive racial violence erupted, and white people were slaughtered wholesale and forced to leave. In fact, if I saw that, I would think maybe, perhaps there is a God after all.

Thunder · 15th November 2010, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by UWdude

The ~~Jewish~~ bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight.

is this what you really wanted to say?

UWdude · 15th November 2010, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

is this what you really wanted to say?

no

lionking · 15th November 2010, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

I don't think I like your tone. Adjust it if you ever expect or desire a response from me.

Is that all it takes?

Thunder · 15th November 2010, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Is that all it takes?

cornsail · 15th November 2010, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

is this what you really wanted to say?

Did you hit your head recently or something? I'm not usually a hater of your posts, but that's the kind of thing Skeptic would say.

Thunder · 15th November 2010, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by cornsail

Did you hit your head recently or something? I'm not usually a hater of your posts, but that's the kind of thing Skeptic would say.

moronic posts get moronic responses.

Tsukasa Buddha · 15th November 2010, 07:44 PM

So what's this thread about again?

cornsail · 15th November 2010, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

moronic posts get moronic responses.

Eye for an eye, moron for a moron?

DarthFishy · 15th November 2010, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by UWdude

The bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight.

BTW, many of your listed victories were one group of elites exchanged for another, or took generations to achieve. If you want justice, voting and activism is the long way around, and usually requires you letting the perpetrators of injustice free and without loss.

The French in 1789 and Bolsheviks in 1917 weren't so kind, nor should they have been.

It was only 16 years ago that majority rule was finally implemented in South Africa, and even then, the structure of white power and domination is so entrenched that the Africans of South Africa have no real freedom, they are still beholden to the white people that own most of the wealth, therefore jobs, therefore power. I would not shed any tears if a massive racial violence erupted, and white people were slaughtered wholesale and forced to leave. In fact, if I saw that, I would think maybe, perhaps there is a God after all.

Hmmm you were so close to being right

The structure of power and domination is essentially the same, the colour of the people in charge has just changed. And yes there are still a lot of rich powerful white people in the country but nowhere the close to the amount that there was 16 to 20 years ago.

Also the Struggle Against Apartheid was anything but peaceful (rightly so in my opinion). Unkunto-we Sizwe (not 100% of the spelling), was the ANCs paramilitary arm and committed various acts of political violence. You can argue about the morality of it all you want but it definitely did occur.

The eventual 'revolution' ended up being surprisingly peaceful, and for that I am very grateful but do not fool yourself into thinking that political violence, from both sides was not a definite component of the Struggle against Apartheid.

bozothedeathmachine · 15th November 2010, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sledge

I'm sure Thunder has posted this before.

He has, but it's conspicuously missing from my subscribed thread list.

ETA: Found it: All Communists are Deadbeats

Mirrorglass · 15th November 2010, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

moronic posts get moronic responses.

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha

So what's this thread about again?

I assume this was a cross-post.

DC · 16th November 2010, 12:05 AM

So Thunder is bashing his imaginary friends again?

Kotatsu · 16th November 2010, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

moronic posts get moronic responses.

Not necessarily. Why, I can see many non-moronic posts in this very thread, despite the OP.

Funny anecdotes:
I have had very few friends who have been fervently right-wing, and only two of them have been very memorable.

One was a guy I knew when I was in the marines; no one liked this guy. As we weren't allowed to have political opinions while in uniform, we usually had to wait until we had some spare time to debate politics -- but this was sort of a one-edged sword. His political opinions -- some sort of liberal extremism -- was more or less accepted by the officers, because officers are typically right-wing bordering on fascism.

Thus regardless of if we were in uniform or not, the rest of us got to hear his whining about how horrible the world was since we had a socialist government. He was against taxes with the usual asinine right-wing mindset (1), he whined about all these Turks and Arabs who were coming here (2), he complained about all this money being paid to the unemployed which would make them not want to get a job, and so on, ad nauseum. The rest of us -- and yes, in my little group (platoon? there were about ten of us) most of us happened to be socialists, anarchists and communists; that's conscription for you! -- were not allowed to respond to his inanities, however, as we were in uniform.

During the time we were at the base, there were many things that we all found abhorrent. Personally, I hated saluting, marching, using titles with officers, and lining up, so a few of my friends and I simply stopped doing that, and for most of the time there, we called officers by nicknames, walked around in a mixture of civilian and military clothes, and just said hello to people we met -- this, too, is what you get, or in any case deserve to get, when you have conscription. The whining right-winger didn't, of course, nor did he stop complaining about his situation throughout our time there.

The second guy was more recent, and a member of the Swedish People's Party, which used to be called "The Liberals" when they still were, but don't really dare to call themselves "The Fascists" which is what they are today. Well, strictly speaking he is part of the Liberal Youth, which, like all political youth organisations regardless of political colour, emphasizes the idiocy of the mother party without adhering to whatever redeeming qualities she may have.

He happened to join a society I was part (and co-founder) of a few years ago, and which hadn't had any kind of central organisation for years. Despite this, we had more activities going on, and more members than ever, because we practiced a form of communal decision making whereby anyone could at any time suggest something, and those who wanted to help did, and those who didn't, didn't. This wasn't good enough for my friend, though, who -- perversely, considering that he actually called himself a liberal -- wanted to have a strong central organisation that would more or less make all decisions. He whined about this incessantly for a year, until he actually showed some initiative, performed a coup within the society, took power for himself, and promptly proceeded to actually make the society cease to exist.

I would love to contrast this with my many left-wing friends -- which include PhD students, a highly trained corrosion chemist now building a new lab from scratch at one of my country's largest companies, lawyers and many other highly successful people -- but as there are so many of them, it would only look like cherry-picking.

Similarly, on a larger scale, the right-wing parties in my country -- the "Liberals", the Conservatives, the Christian Democrats, the racist Swedish Democrats, and the Centre Party -- did virtually nothing but complain when they were in opposition, but hardly ever did anything constructive. Now they are unfortunately in power, and now it is the left-wing parties -- the Greens, the Social Democrats and the Left -- who seem to be unable to get past the complaining stage and actually do something. I think it is much fairer to say that those who have their heart placed on the opposite side of the current administration of whatever area you live in will whine and complain, regardless of what the political colour of the administration is.

However, whether or not people "gain new skills, improve their lives, go back to school, take courses" and so on, well, it seems to depend more on what they are like as a person than what their political leanings are. Virtually every leftist I know either has a university education or is in the process of getting one. The exceptions would be those who have a job where this isn't needed, and who are satisfied with this, though many of these people are avid readers and they certainly "improve their lives" that way.

---
(1) "Well, I never get sick, so why should I have to pay so much taxes?"
(2) His sister was dating one, if I recall correctly, and he didn't like that at all.

TubbaBlubba · 16th November 2010, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

is this what you really wanted to say?

Because none of the Bolsheviks were Jews or anything.

Fishstick · 17th November 2010, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

moronic posts get moronic responses.

You're right, corporate and financial lobbies have no power whatsoever. Any criticism thereof is pure antisemitism!

Cayvmann · 17th November 2010, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by KingMerv00

I know a few capitalists who spend their time whining, bitching, and moaning about communism therefore capitalism is bad.

I don't know anybody who calls themselves a Capitalist, who doesn't whine incessantly about pretty much everything. I don't know any communists or socialists though, so....

UWdude · 17th November 2010, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba

Because none of the Bolsheviks were Jews or anything.

Why didn't I think of that zinger?

LoL

EatatJoes · 17th November 2010, 09:32 AM

I'm related a "republican" who complains that she doesn't receive enough public assistance...

Undesired Walrus · 19th November 2010, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

they have no real clue about Socialism.

Neither do you.

Thunder · 19th November 2010, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Neither do you.

sure I do.

MarkCorrigan · 19th November 2010, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

sure I do.

No, you don't.

Did you seriously forget that you got absolutely spanked in the previous thread? Seriously?

You know virtually nothing about Socialism.

Rufo · 19th November 2010, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by UWdude

People are afraid of violence. They buy into the lie that slaves fighting their masters is as reprehensible as masters beating their slaves. Voting and activism will achieve nothing. The bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight.

If people weren't so afraid, they wouldn't be resorting to violence to begin with.

Cayvmann · 19th November 2010, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by EatatJoes

I'm related a "republican" who complains that she doesn't receive enough public assistance...

My dad's whole family in Mississippi are like this...

Thunder · 19th November 2010, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

You know virtually nothing about Socialism.

prove it. you make the claim, you provide evidence.

EatatJoes · 19th November 2010, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Cayvmann

My dad's whole family in Mississippi are like this...

It can be both assuming and incredibly irritating. She's a constant source of irony. Here are two recent examples...

Her: "Which insurance company should I chose? A, B or C?"
Me: "IDK, which ones are accepted in your area?"
Her: "All of them!"
Me: "Great. How much are the plans?"
Her: "They're all free because of the recent health insurance changes."
Me: "So, you a fan of Obama now?"
Her: "No, I can't stand him."

I will bet my house that she didn't realize that the "recent changes" were Obamacare.

Her: "Did you know that Obama and the Dems want to limit free speech?!?"
Me: "Link please."
Her: "Hubs told me."
Me: "He gets his talking points from talk radio. I can't find anything online. The only thing I can think of is the recent Phelps case in the Supreme Court right now. They are the bastards that protest at funerals."
Her: "That's horrible!! That should be illegal!!"

Undesired Walrus · 19th November 2010, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

sure I do.

Without copying or pasting, tell us what you believe socialism and communism to be.

MarkCorrigan · 19th November 2010, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

prove it. you make the claim, you provide evidence.

You think China, the former USSR and Cuba are Socialist. You used to at least. Do you still believe these things?

commandlinegamer · 19th November 2010, 03:30 PM

How many communists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

15th November 2010, 04:27 PM	#42
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of nowhere, UK. Posts: 7,177	So, why on earth did you start up what is essentially a repeat of a thread where you got thoroughly spanked? Are you a troll, a masochist, or deluded enough to think you actually know what you're talking about?
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet. If I die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.

15th November 2010, 04:31 PM	#43
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	Originally Posted by UWdude Sure does. Fortunately, some advocate violence, and some do not. Those that do not, think that words and money can stop the inevitable reality, while those that do, believe that inevitably reality will be shaped by more than words and money. I'm not entirely sure what you mean to say by this, but I think there are other actions people advocate besides words, money and violence. I wouldn't support any ideology which suggests violence as the only viable course of action on a large scale.
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	__________________ Love is patient, love is kind, says he [Paul] - so is humour too, for it is not offended by that which is ugly and offensive, it seeks out the lost and miserable and shows that they are worth interest - love is not angered, it does not judge - neither does humour - love forgives all - so does humour - love is humble - such is humour too, for humour makes men not consider themselves better than others. - Gustaf Fröding

15th November 2010, 04:32 PM	#45
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431	Originally Posted by Thunder forgive me if I am less than convinced by your story. its a weee bit too convenient to be true. convenient? Convenient for what? You don't think people can switch ideologies after seeing gross injustice? Would you believe I loved and donated money to Ron Paul? Was Ron Paul 100% pro-free market? Does it make sense now? I still love Ron Paul, but now I think electing him would be a disaster. Not because of what he believes, but because I see how this crooked system works. If Ron Paul were elected, we would get all of his right wing economic policies, but none of his left wing foreign policies implemented.
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431

15th November 2010, 04:35 PM	#47
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431	Originally Posted by Rufo I wouldn't support any ideology which suggests violence as the only viable course of action on a large scale. People are afraid of violence. They buy into the lie that slaves fighting their masters is as reprehensible as masters beating their slaves. Voting and activism will achieve nothing. The bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight.
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431

15th November 2010, 04:35 PM	#48
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of nowhere, UK. Posts: 7,177	Originally Posted by Thunder I don't think I like your tone. Adjust it if you ever expect or desire a response from me. Well since you dodge questions, leap around trying to toy with people (and failing, by the way, noone gets angry with your antics, they're just pathetic) and lie like a rug I suppose I shouldn't expect a response.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet. If I die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.

15th November 2010, 04:27 PM	#41
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by UWdude I was trading in the stock market, and arguing with friends whole heartedly about the wonders of free market capitalism in 2008. Then came the bailouts. Now I see the truth. forgive me if I am less than convinced by your story. its a weee bit too convenient to be true.

15th November 2010, 04:31 PM	#44
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan Are you a troll, a masochist, or deluded enough to think you actually know what you're talking about? I don't think I like your tone. Adjust it if you ever expect or desire a response from me.

15th November 2010, 04:35 PM	#46
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by UWdude You don't think people can switch ideologies after seeing gross injustice? free-market lovers don't just switch sides over night. and if they do, then they were never really fans of the free-market, or they have no real clue about Socialism.

15th November 2010, 04:38 PM	#49
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431	Originally Posted by Thunder free-market lovers don't just switch sides over night. Shows what you know. I did. And I wasn't just an ideologue, I was also an activist for the Libertarian party for years. I wouldn't be surprised if many other people did too after the bailouts. I bet you right now there are people who are listening to the whining and moaning of socialists and communists, who used to buy all the free market utopianism, but now are living the free market reality, and thinking, "yeah, why do I support an ideology that merely enriches the wealthy?"
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431

15th November 2010, 04:39 PM	#50
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by UWdude Voting and activism will achieve nothing. tell that to women and blacks, who used to not have the right to vote. tell that to the environmental movement. tell that to the Pro-Choice movement. tell that to the anti-Vietnam War movement. tell that to the pro-Union movement in Poland during the 1980s. tell that to the East Germans. tell that to the Czechs. tell that to the Russians, who killed the coup in 1991 through mostly non-violent protests. tell that to the folks who ended Apartheid in South Africa. tell that to the Indians, who kicked out the British. the number of non-violent victories over tyranny and injustice throughout the world is large and growing.

15th November 2010, 04:43 PM	#51
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of nowhere, UK. Posts: 7,177	Originally Posted by Thunder free-market lovers don't just switch sides over night. and if they do, then they were never really fans of the free-market, or they have no real clue about Socialism. This coming from the guy who thinks the USSR and Maoist China were actually Socialist? Hilarity.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet. If I die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.

15th November 2010, 04:56 PM	#52
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431	Originally Posted by Thunder tell that to..... The bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight. BTW, many of your listed victories were one group of elites exchanged for another, or took generations to achieve. If you want justice, voting and activism is the long way around, and usually requires you letting the perpetrators of injustice free and without loss. The French in 1789 and Bolsheviks in 1917 weren't so kind, nor should they have been. It was only 16 years ago that majority rule was finally implemented in South Africa, and even then, the structure of white power and domination is so entrenched that the Africans of South Africa have no real freedom, they are still beholden to the white people that own most of the wealth, therefore jobs, therefore power. I would not shed any tears if a massive racial violence erupted, and white people were slaughtered wholesale and forced to leave. In fact, if I saw that, I would think maybe, perhaps there is a God after all.
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431

15th November 2010, 05:00 PM	#53
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by UWdude The ~~Jewish~~ bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight. is this what you really wanted to say?

15th November 2010, 05:01 PM	#54
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431	Originally Posted by Thunder is this what you really wanted to say? no
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431

15th November 2010, 05:13 PM	#55
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 30,004	Originally Posted by Thunder I don't think I like your tone. Adjust it if you ever expect or desire a response from me. Is that all it takes?

15th November 2010, 05:15 PM	#56
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by lionking Is that all it takes?

15th November 2010, 05:20 PM	#57
cornsail Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: nowhereville Posts: 2,694	Originally Posted by Thunder is this what you really wanted to say? Did you hit your head recently or something? I'm not usually a hater of your posts, but that's the kind of thing Skeptic would say.

15th November 2010, 06:55 PM	#58
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by cornsail Did you hit your head recently or something? I'm not usually a hater of your posts, but that's the kind of thing Skeptic would say. moronic posts get moronic responses.

15th November 2010, 07:44 PM	#59
Tsukasa Buddha Other (please write in) Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NeverLand Posts: 10,037	So what's this thread about again?
	__________________ As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

15th November 2010, 08:39 PM	#60
cornsail Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: nowhereville Posts: 2,694	Originally Posted by Thunder moronic posts get moronic responses. Eye for an eye, moron for a moron?

15th November 2010, 10:27 PM	#61
DarthFishy Muse Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: South Africa Posts: 523	Originally Posted by UWdude The bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight. BTW, many of your listed victories were one group of elites exchanged for another, or took generations to achieve. If you want justice, voting and activism is the long way around, and usually requires you letting the perpetrators of injustice free and without loss. The French in 1789 and Bolsheviks in 1917 weren't so kind, nor should they have been. It was only 16 years ago that majority rule was finally implemented in South Africa, and even then, the structure of white power and domination is so entrenched that the Africans of South Africa have no real freedom, they are still beholden to the white people that own most of the wealth, therefore jobs, therefore power. I would not shed any tears if a massive racial violence erupted, and white people were slaughtered wholesale and forced to leave. In fact, if I saw that, I would think maybe, perhaps there is a God after all. Hmmm you were so close to being right The structure of power and domination is essentially the same, the colour of the people in charge has just changed. And yes there are still a lot of rich powerful white people in the country but nowhere the close to the amount that there was 16 to 20 years ago. Also the Struggle Against Apartheid was anything but peaceful (rightly so in my opinion). Unkunto-we Sizwe (not 100% of the spelling), was the ANCs paramilitary arm and committed various acts of political violence. You can argue about the morality of it all you want but it definitely did occur. The eventual 'revolution' ended up being surprisingly peaceful, and for that I am very grateful but do not fool yourself into thinking that political violence, from both sides was not a definite component of the Struggle against Apartheid.
	__________________ http://yetanotherscepticsblog.wordpress.com/

15th November 2010, 11:50 PM	#62
bozothedeathmachine Muse Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Zürich Posts: 626	Originally Posted by Sledge I'm sure Thunder has posted this before. He has, but it's conspicuously missing from my subscribed thread list. ETA: Found it: All Communists are Deadbeats
	Last edited by bozothedeathmachine; 15th November 2010 at 11:53 PM.

15th November 2010, 11:51 PM	#63
Mirrorglass Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Northern Europe Posts: 3,474	Originally Posted by Thunder moronic posts get moronic responses. Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha So what's this thread about again? I assume this was a cross-post.
	__________________ _{When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less. -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass}

16th November 2010, 12:05 AM	#64
DC dedicated aphilatelist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Switzerland Posts: 21,708	So Thunder is bashing his imaginary friends again?
	__________________ AGW is a fact, including the A, face it

16th November 2010, 12:37 AM	#65
Kotatsu Phthirapterist Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Good Anvil Posts: 2,157	Originally Posted by Thunder moronic posts get moronic responses. Not necessarily. Why, I can see many non-moronic posts in this very thread, despite the OP. Funny anecdotes: I have had very few friends who have been fervently right-wing, and only two of them have been very memorable. One was a guy I knew when I was in the marines; no one liked this guy. As we weren't allowed to have political opinions while in uniform, we usually had to wait until we had some spare time to debate politics -- but this was sort of a one-edged sword. His political opinions -- some sort of liberal extremism -- was more or less accepted by the officers, because officers are typically right-wing bordering on fascism. Thus regardless of if we were in uniform or not, the rest of us got to hear his whining about how horrible the world was since we had a socialist government. He was against taxes with the usual asinine right-wing mindset (1), he whined about all these Turks and Arabs who were coming here (2), he complained about all this money being paid to the unemployed which would make them not want to get a job, and so on, ad nauseum. The rest of us -- and yes, in my little group (platoon? there were about ten of us) most of us happened to be socialists, anarchists and communists; that's conscription for you! -- were not allowed to respond to his inanities, however, as we were in uniform. During the time we were at the base, there were many things that we all found abhorrent. Personally, I hated saluting, marching, using titles with officers, and lining up, so a few of my friends and I simply stopped doing that, and for most of the time there, we called officers by nicknames, walked around in a mixture of civilian and military clothes, and just said hello to people we met -- this, too, is what you get, or in any case deserve to get, when you have conscription. The whining right-winger didn't, of course, nor did he stop complaining about his situation throughout our time there. The second guy was more recent, and a member of the Swedish People's Party, which used to be called "The Liberals" when they still were, but don't really dare to call themselves "The Fascists" which is what they are today. Well, strictly speaking he is part of the Liberal Youth, which, like all political youth organisations regardless of political colour, emphasizes the idiocy of the mother party without adhering to whatever redeeming qualities she may have. He happened to join a society I was part (and co-founder) of a few years ago, and which hadn't had any kind of central organisation for years. Despite this, we had more activities going on, and more members than ever, because we practiced a form of communal decision making whereby anyone could at any time suggest something, and those who wanted to help did, and those who didn't, didn't. This wasn't good enough for my friend, though, who -- perversely, considering that he actually called himself a liberal -- wanted to have a strong central organisation that would more or less make all decisions. He whined about this incessantly for a year, until he actually showed some initiative, performed a coup within the society, took power for himself, and promptly proceeded to actually make the society cease to exist. I would love to contrast this with my many left-wing friends -- which include PhD students, a highly trained corrosion chemist now building a new lab from scratch at one of my country's largest companies, lawyers and many other highly successful people -- but as there are so many of them, it would only look like cherry-picking. Similarly, on a larger scale, the right-wing parties in my country -- the "Liberals", the Conservatives, the Christian Democrats, the racist Swedish Democrats, and the Centre Party -- did virtually nothing but complain when they were in opposition, but hardly ever did anything constructive. Now they are unfortunately in power, and now it is the left-wing parties -- the Greens, the Social Democrats and the Left -- who seem to be unable to get past the complaining stage and actually do something. I think it is much fairer to say that those who have their heart placed on the opposite side of the current administration of whatever area you live in will whine and complain, regardless of what the political colour of the administration is. However, whether or not people "gain new skills, improve their lives, go back to school, take courses" and so on, well, it seems to depend more on what they are like as a person than what their political leanings are. Virtually every leftist I know either has a university education or is in the process of getting one. The exceptions would be those who have a job where this isn't needed, and who are satisfied with this, though many of these people are avid readers and they certainly "improve their lives" that way. --- (1) "Well, I never get sick, so why should I have to pay so much taxes?" (2) His sister was dating one, if I recall correctly, and he didn't like that at all.
	__________________ "It is not supposed to be funny or annoying or insightful, because it is neither; nor to convey or express any emotion or wit, because it doesn't; nor to be any kind of art, because it isn't; but merely to be repetitive. It is repetition for the sake of repetition; mindless, relentless, remorseless and -- ultimately -- redundant." K. Krishnamurthi, "The Seven Forms of Repetition", 1972.

16th November 2010, 05:32 AM	#66
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden Posts: 7,479	Originally Posted by Thunder is this what you really wanted to say? Because none of the Bolsheviks were Jews or anything.
	__________________ Disagreement begets progress.

17th November 2010, 04:41 AM	#67
Fishstick Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,313	Originally Posted by Thunder moronic posts get moronic responses. You're right, corporate and financial lobbies have no power whatsoever. Any criticism thereof is pure antisemitism!

17th November 2010, 05:02 AM	#68
Cayvmann Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 579	Originally Posted by KingMerv00 I know a few capitalists who spend their time whining, bitching, and moaning about communism therefore capitalism is bad. I don't know anybody who calls themselves a Capitalist, who doesn't whine incessantly about pretty much everything. I don't know any communists or socialists though, so....
Cayvmann Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 579

17th November 2010, 09:24 AM	#69
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431	Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba Because none of the Bolsheviks were Jews or anything. Why didn't I think of that zinger? LoL
UWdude Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 431

17th November 2010, 09:32 AM	#70
EatatJoes Fundamental Atheist Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 357	I'm related a "republican" who complains that she doesn't receive enough public assistance...
	__________________ "Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." - John Benfield "The only consequence of truth is liberation" - Unknown

19th November 2010, 07:48 AM	#71
Undesired Walrus Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London Posts: 10,904	Originally Posted by Thunder they have no real clue about Socialism. Neither do you.
	__________________ Man's material discoveries have outpaced his moral progress. - Clement Attlee, 1945 Last edited by Undesired Walrus; 19th November 2010 at 07:49 AM.

19th November 2010, 10:20 AM	#72
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Neither do you. sure I do.

19th November 2010, 11:09 AM	#73
MarkCorrigan Winter is Coming Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Middle of nowhere, UK. Posts: 7,177	Originally Posted by Thunder sure I do. No, you don't. Did you seriously forget that you got absolutely spanked in the previous thread? Seriously? You know virtually nothing about Socialism.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz Now I lay me down to sleep, a bag of peanuts at my feet. If I die before I wake, give them to my brother Jake.

19th November 2010, 11:26 AM	#74
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	Originally Posted by UWdude People are afraid of violence. They buy into the lie that slaves fighting their masters is as reprehensible as masters beating their slaves. Voting and activism will achieve nothing. The bankers/multinationals vise-grip is too tight. If people weren't so afraid, they wouldn't be resorting to violence to begin with.
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	__________________ Love is patient, love is kind, says he [Paul] - so is humour too, for it is not offended by that which is ugly and offensive, it seeks out the lost and miserable and shows that they are worth interest - love is not angered, it does not judge - neither does humour - love forgives all - so does humour - love is humble - such is humour too, for humour makes men not consider themselves better than others. - Gustaf Fröding

19th November 2010, 12:07 PM	#75
Cayvmann Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 579	Originally Posted by EatatJoes I'm related a "republican" who complains that she doesn't receive enough public assistance... My dad's whole family in Mississippi are like this...
Cayvmann Muse Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 579