Did the Norse bring Native Americans with them from Vinland?

Ryokan · 17th November 2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Although most mtDNA lineages observed in contemporary Icelanders can be traced to neighboring populations in the British Isles and Scandinavia, one may have a more distant origin. This lineage belongs to haplogroup C1, one of a handful that was involved in the settlement of the Americas around 14,000 years ago. Contrary to an initial assumption that this lineage was a recent arrival, preliminary genealogical analyses revealed that the C1 lineage was present in the Icelandic mtDNA pool at least 300 years ago. This raised the intriguing possibility that the Icelandic C1 lineage could be traced to Viking voyages to the Americas that commenced in the 10th century.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21419/abstract

Sadly I don't have access to the rest of the article, but if there's some truth to it, then that's very interesting.

Halfcentaur · 17th November 2010, 07:07 PM

Hasn't there been a history of Inuit natives being found dead in canoes in northern Europe? This is what led people to believe Asia could be reached by sailing across the Atlantic, as they mistook these Inuit for Chinese? Regardless of how the line was introduced, I find this sort of thing to be fascinating.

qayak · 18th November 2010, 08:44 AM

Why would it have to be people from North America? More likely it was intermixing with the peoples of Greenland. The Innu were not the first people to live in the North. Paleo-Eskimos lived there long before and are known to have had contact with the Norse.

It wasn't until around 1200 CE that the Innu began moving North and taking over Paleo-Eskimo territory with at least some being absorbed by the Innu. So the Innu and Norse contact would have been very limited.

The Innu were much better suited to living in the North. They had the ability to hunt anything on land, ice, or sea while the paleo-Eskimos were limited to hunting on land or ice so it was they who won out.

It is known that the paleo-Eskimo had contact with other people of North America. They are the ones who introduced the bow and arrow. Intermixing seems likely. Their territory overlapped with both the Innu and the Dene and it was in their territory that the Norse settled. There is even a written account of contact between the Norse and Paleo-Eskimos.

Check out Ancient People of the Arctic by Robert McGhee. A very intresting read.

qayak · 18th November 2010, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

Hasn't there been a history of Inuit natives being found dead in canoes in northern Europe? This is what led people to believe Asia could be reached by sailing across the Atlantic, as they mistook these Inuit for Chinese? Regardless of how the line was introduced, I find this sort of thing to be fascinating.

Yes but that was later and, for many, how they got there is know. Some were "found" upon the sea and kidnapped with all their gear by European sailors and taken back before escaping. Others seem to have been lost/blown off course in storms and because of a strange circumstance of navigation in the far North, end up going the wrong way. A hunter on the sea in his kayak would not have much problem going the great distances as long as he had a way of hauling his boat out to dry it regularly. Ice floes would make that possible.

In 1000 CE the Innu were limited to below the tree line in North America. Their only contact with the Norse would have been in Labrador and according to the Norse stories, that were limited to minor trading and fighting with the "Skraelings." The Innu didn't expand North until around 1200 CE.

It seems more likely to me that the DNA marker came from the Paleo-Eskimos and was passed from them to both the Innu and Norse. The Innu through Innu take over and the Norse through contact in Greenland.

Father Dagon · 21st November 2010, 12:43 PM

But was the paleo-eskimos really eskimos? I've heard that there's been four different people living in the eskimo lands in a way similar to eskimos. The people before the eskimos was the clovis and they didn't even have dogs. I guess that changes in climate made the land less hospitable.

Marduk · 21st November 2010, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by qayak

Why would it have to be people from North America? More likely it was intermixing with the peoples of Greenland.

wrong haplogroup, most likely this was caused by a skraeling woman or women taken as slaves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skr%C3%A6ling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_m...uman_sacrifice
theres nothing unusual or abnormal about that idea, its what the Norse did everywhere else they went
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit#Early_history

Originally Posted by Father Dagon

The people before the eskimos was the clovis and they didn't even have dogs. I guess that changes in climate made the land less hospitable.

I think thats a bit unlikely as the closest Clovis site was the western side of North America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture

Cainkane1 · 21st November 2010, 01:13 PM

Native Americans were sailors too. They had good navigational skills and very big canoes. Whats to say they didn't sail to europe?

Father Dagon · 21st November 2010, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

I think thats a bit unlikely as the closest Clovis site was the western side of North America
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture

Ok.

Marduk · 21st November 2010, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Native Americans were sailors too. They had good navigational skills and very big canoes. Whats to say they didn't sail to europe?

the complete lack of any evidence is usually sufficient, that and the lack of kelp beds in the north atlantic
http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/fin...ract_64021.htm
well that and they didn't use sails

17th November 2010, 06:22 PM	#1
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,172	Did the Norse bring Native Americans with them from Vinland? Quote: Although most mtDNA lineages observed in contemporary Icelanders can be traced to neighboring populations in the British Isles and Scandinavia, one may have a more distant origin. This lineage belongs to haplogroup C1, one of a handful that was involved in the settlement of the Americas around 14,000 years ago. Contrary to an initial assumption that this lineage was a recent arrival, preliminary genealogical analyses revealed that the C1 lineage was present in the Icelandic mtDNA pool at least 300 years ago. This raised the intriguing possibility that the Icelandic C1 lineage could be traced to Viking voyages to the Americas that commenced in the 10th century. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21419/abstract Sadly I don't have access to the rest of the article, but if there's some truth to it, then that's very interesting.

17th November 2010, 07:07 PM	#2
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,946	Hasn't there been a history of Inuit natives being found dead in canoes in northern Europe? This is what led people to believe Asia could be reached by sailing across the Atlantic, as they mistook these Inuit for Chinese? Regardless of how the line was introduced, I find this sort of thing to be fascinating.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,946

18th November 2010, 08:44 AM	#3
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,710	Why would it have to be people from North America? More likely it was intermixing with the peoples of Greenland. The Innu were not the first people to live in the North. Paleo-Eskimos lived there long before and are known to have had contact with the Norse. It wasn't until around 1200 CE that the Innu began moving North and taking over Paleo-Eskimo territory with at least some being absorbed by the Innu. So the Innu and Norse contact would have been very limited. The Innu were much better suited to living in the North. They had the ability to hunt anything on land, ice, or sea while the paleo-Eskimos were limited to hunting on land or ice so it was they who won out. It is known that the paleo-Eskimo had contact with other people of North America. They are the ones who introduced the bow and arrow. Intermixing seems likely. Their territory overlapped with both the Innu and the Dene and it was in their territory that the Norse settled. There is even a written account of contact between the Norse and Paleo-Eskimos. Check out Ancient People of the Arctic by Robert McGhee. A very intresting read.
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,710	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

18th November 2010, 08:54 AM	#4
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,710	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur Hasn't there been a history of Inuit natives being found dead in canoes in northern Europe? This is what led people to believe Asia could be reached by sailing across the Atlantic, as they mistook these Inuit for Chinese? Regardless of how the line was introduced, I find this sort of thing to be fascinating. Yes but that was later and, for many, how they got there is know. Some were "found" upon the sea and kidnapped with all their gear by European sailors and taken back before escaping. Others seem to have been lost/blown off course in storms and because of a strange circumstance of navigation in the far North, end up going the wrong way. A hunter on the sea in his kayak would not have much problem going the great distances as long as he had a way of hauling his boat out to dry it regularly. Ice floes would make that possible. In 1000 CE the Innu were limited to below the tree line in North America. Their only contact with the Norse would have been in Labrador and according to the Norse stories, that were limited to minor trading and fighting with the "Skraelings." The Innu didn't expand North until around 1200 CE. It seems more likely to me that the DNA marker came from the Paleo-Eskimos and was passed from them to both the Innu and Norse. The Innu through Innu take over and the Norse through contact in Greenland.
qayak Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 8,710	__________________ "The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them." (Mark Twain)

21st November 2010, 12:43 PM	#5
Father Dagon Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden, Mater Evropa, Sol-III Posts: 1,193	But was the paleo-eskimos really eskimos? I've heard that there's been four different people living in the eskimo lands in a way similar to eskimos. The people before the eskimos was the clovis and they didn't even have dogs. I guess that changes in climate made the land less hospitable.
	__________________ "Eh-ya-ya-ya-yahaah - e'yayayayaaaa... nhg'aaaaa... ngh'aaaa... h'yuh... h'yuh... HELP! HELP!... ff-ff-ff-FATHER! FATHER! YOG-SOTHOTH"

21st November 2010, 12:47 PM	#6
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by qayak Why would it have to be people from North America? More likely it was intermixing with the peoples of Greenland. wrong haplogroup, most likely this was caused by a skraeling woman or women taken as slaves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skr%C3%A6ling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_m...uman_sacrifice theres nothing unusual or abnormal about that idea, its what the Norse did everywhere else they went http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit#Early_history Originally Posted by Father Dagon The people before the eskimos was the clovis and they didn't even have dogs. I guess that changes in climate made the land less hospitable. I think thats a bit unlikely as the closest Clovis site was the western side of North America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture
	Last edited by Marduk; 21st November 2010 at 12:58 PM.

21st November 2010, 01:13 PM	#7
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,193	Native Americans were sailors too. They had good navigational skills and very big canoes. Whats to say they didn't sail to europe?
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

21st November 2010, 01:14 PM	#8
Father Dagon Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden, Mater Evropa, Sol-III Posts: 1,193	Originally Posted by Marduk I think thats a bit unlikely as the closest Clovis site was the western side of North America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture Ok.
	__________________ "Eh-ya-ya-ya-yahaah - e'yayayayaaaa... nhg'aaaaa... ngh'aaaa... h'yuh... h'yuh... HELP! HELP!... ff-ff-ff-FATHER! FATHER! YOG-SOTHOTH"

21st November 2010, 01:23 PM	#9
Marduk Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 10,242	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Native Americans were sailors too. They had good navigational skills and very big canoes. Whats to say they didn't sail to europe? the complete lack of any evidence is usually sufficient, that and the lack of kelp beds in the north atlantic http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/fin...ract_64021.htm well that and they didn't use sails
	Last edited by Marduk; 21st November 2010 at 01:27 PM.