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Cicero · 30th November 2010, 08:15 AM

Marine dog hurt in Iraq when handler killed to have surgery, hopefully continue new mission"

"The commemorative Purple Heart recipient is in his 70s - in people years. In dog years, he's pushing 10.

But Lex, a Marine Corps bomb-sniffing canine whose master died in the same 2007 attack in Iraq, is getting help with his war injuries. Like many retired veterans, he faces the challenge of aging while coping with health problems.
On Sunday, the German shepherd flew to Washington, D.C., where he will receive a specialized stem cell exchange surgery in hopes of rejuvenating his aging bones."

Rolfe · 30th November 2010, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

the German shepherd [....] will receive a specialized stem cell exchange surgery in hopes of rejuvenating his aging bones.

As a vet, all I can say is, WUT???

Rolfe.

Blogiston · 30th November 2010, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

As a vet, all I can say is, WUT???

That's a coincidence, the dog's a vet too. You don't often see that.

casebro · 30th November 2010, 08:58 AM

Sounds like an experimental procedure on an animal with no other hope. Go for it, in the hopes that it will advance medical knowledge for the treatment of humans.

Cicero · 30th November 2010, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

As a vet, all I can say is, WUT???

Rolfe.

Vets charge $5k+ for this procedure. Had the Adequan® injections not worked for my GSD's elbow injury, he was going to have had this procedure done.

Blogiston · 30th November 2010, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

Sounds like an experimental procedure on an animal with no other hope. Go for it, in the hopes that it will advance medical knowledge for the treatment of humans.

Hopefully, it will be canine derived stem cell material, and not human! I think it was Al Gore who warned against creating what he called, manbearpig, i.e. half man, half bear, half pig, by tampering with the DNA of a man, a bear and a pig.
I think, I'm not real sure.

Rolfe · 30th November 2010, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Vets charge $5k+ for this procedure. Had the Adequan® injections not worked for my GSD's elbow injury, he was going to have had this procedure done.

It's not my speciality, but I have to say I've never heard of it. I don't even know if it's woo or not.

Rolfe.

Beerina · 30th November 2010, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

Sounds like an experimental procedure on an animal with no other hope. Go for it, in the hopes that it will advance medical knowledge for the treatment of humans.

That's exactly what I was thinking -- it's not a stupid waste of money, but an experiment for this kind of procedure. Not only do they have to prove the concept, but they have to hack out a reliable way for it to work.

Rolfe · 30th November 2010, 11:48 AM

Or it could be woo. It actually sounds very suspiciously woo-ish to me.

Rolfe.

Drachasor · 30th November 2010, 12:15 PM

Actually, stem cell treatments for dogs have been around for quite a while now and from what I understand they work fairly well. There wasn't any kind of freeze on the research like there was for humans, so it's continued to advanced.

Cicero · 30th November 2010, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Or it could be woo. It actually sounds very suspiciously woo-ish to me.

Rolfe.

Don't know for sure as my GSD didn't undergo this procedure, but there is evidence of it being successful.

http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2010/08/g...-cell-therapy/

Rolfe · 30th November 2010, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Don't know for sure as my GSD didn't undergo this procedure, but there is evidence of it being successful.

http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2010/08/g...-cell-therapy/

Oh dear.

Originally Posted by Cicero's link

When it comes to improving the lives of the animals he treats, veterinarian Brian Voynick isn’t afraid to try something new. He’s been doing acupuncture on dogs for some 15 years. So when Voynick first heard about stem cell therapy for small animals like cats and dogs four years ago at a conference on holistic veterinary medicine,

That's not research, that's woo-mongering of the first water.

Rolfe.

Cicero · 30th November 2010, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Oh dear.

That's not research, that's woo-mongering of the first water.

Rolfe.

What does acupuncture have to do with stem cells derived from an animal’s fat to treat pain and inflammation from ailments like arthritis and hip dysplasia? Is the critter in on the woo?

Rolfe · 30th November 2010, 01:10 PM

Cicero, that page isn't describing basic, groundbreaking veterinary research. It's describing a woo vet who will try anything he hears about at a "holistic" veterinary conference. Holistic is code for "alternative" woo medicine.

Rolfe.

Drachasor · 30th November 2010, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Cicero, that page isn't describing basic, groundbreaking veterinary research. It's describing a woo vet who will try anything he hears about at a "holistic" veterinary conference. Holistic is code for "alternative" woo medicine.

Rolfe.

I'll see if I can find something on stem cell research on dogs. My understanding was that it worked quite well.

For what it is worth, a guy who'll try things that don't work can also try things that do. He just doesn't distinguish between the two.

Cicero · 30th November 2010, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Cicero, that page isn't describing basic, groundbreaking veterinary research. It's describing a woo vet who will try anything he hears about at a "holistic" veterinary conference. Holistic is code for "alternative" woo medicine.

Rolfe.

The page? As far as this thread is concerned, it was about one owner's account of their dog's stem cell operation.

Of course there are others:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...-stem-cell.htm

Robert Harman, the privately held company's CEO and founder, is a veterinarian and former bio-tech executive who says veterinarians have used his company's procedure to treat more than 2,500 horses, including a number of world-class racehorses, and more than 200 dogs with arthritis and tendon and ligament injuries. "The animals return to their prior level of performance about 75 percent of the time," says Harman. "There's no question that this is working." Harman says the only adverse side effects have been swelling at the injection site in a small number of cases.

http://www.newsweek.com/2007/09/12/help-for-hounds.html

Travis · 30th November 2010, 01:16 PM

What good would stem cell therapy do for bones?

Rolfe · 30th November 2010, 01:17 PM

Let's see what the members who frequent the Science and Medicine forum area think of this.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=193414

This isn't something you just "try out". This is something that would be the culmination of a huge body of cutting-edge research at the top universities. While it's not impossible this could have happened without getting on my radar, I'd be surprised, I have to say.

Rolfe.

Rolfe · 30th November 2010, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Cicero

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...-stem-cell.htm

Robert Harman, the privately held company's CEO and founder, is a veterinarian and former bio-tech executive who says veterinarians have used his company's procedure to treat more than 2,500 horses, including a number of world-class racehorses, and more than 200 dogs with arthritis and tendon and ligament injuries. "The animals return to their prior level of performance about 75 percent of the time," says Harman. "There's no question that this is working." Harman says the only adverse side effects have been swelling at the injection site in a small number of cases.

http://www.newsweek.com/2007/09/12/help-for-hounds.html

The first link is broken for me. The second looks more promising, I agree, but the degree of commercialisation is still ringing alarm bells.

Rolfe.

Alferd_Packer · 30th November 2010, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

As a vet, all I can say is, WUT???

Sholdn't that be "WOOF?"

Rolfe · 30th November 2010, 01:56 PM

Actually, at the moment, and subject to revision with fuller information, it's "WOO".

Rolfe.

Drachasor · 30th November 2010, 03:32 PM

http://www.doggiestylish.com/store/2...dog-arthritis/

Best thing I could find going over it. From what it says, looks like it is most promising in horses. There's not a lot of research on this particular thing, it seems like.

Rolfe · 30th November 2010, 04:04 PM

Oh thanks, Drachasor. I'd started looking at the couple of publications by Harman about this, in a journal I don't recognise, and my woo-alert meter was firing on all cylinders. That blog post has done all the spade-work and has clearly identified the thing as a woo scam.

The only publications on the subject seem to be by the company that's marketing the treatment, there seem only to be two of them, and they appear in a low-impact journal with unclear peer-review procedures. (It looks similar to our Veterinary Times, which used to be Veterinary Drug, which contains some very good and interesting material but is also quite willing to publish unadulterated woo.)

The publications are 2007 and 2008. They are clinical trials, with no clear evidence of basic research leading to that point. In contrast a legitimate paper merely stating that adipose-derived stem cells seem to have potential in such therapy was published in September 2010.

None of this means that the treatment is unsafe or ineffective, obviously. It does mean its unproven and non-evidence-based. That it's being touted by acupuncture adherents at "holistic" conferences is a very bad sign. Not to mention the price ticket.

Following some more links, I found a short email discussion in my filed emails, initiated by Brennen Mackenzie, a member of a vets' email list I subscribe to. He has blogged on this very subject.

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/06/vet...l-join-forces/
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/06/ste...t-on-our-pets/

Brennen tends to give some benefit of the doubt, but what he has to say is very troubling.

Quote:

the approach has significant biologic plausibility and some supportive in vitro and animal model evidence to suggest it may someday be a valuable clinical therapy. Unfortunately, the selling of it as a product for humans and, primarily via Vet Stem, for pets, is far out in front of the evidence that this hope will be borne out in the real world.

My concern is that such weak evidence, even added to the suggestive pre-clinical information and to study results from other species, does not justify selling an invasive and expensive medical procedure to pet owners.

I have little doubt that the promoters of these therapies believe they are safe and beneficial, and the current state of the evidence does not by any means show they are wrong. But the history of medicine makes it clear that such faith often turns out to be misplaced, and that shortcutting the process of vetting new therapies does more harm than good. We can only hope that does not turn out to be the case with these products.

$5,000 for an experimental procedure with no independent evidence of safety or efficacy, seems a bit steep. In my view this is simply blatant profiteering.

Rolfe.

Beerina · 2nd December 2010, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

Oh dear.

That's not research, that's woo-mongering of the first water.

Rolfe.

Ahhh, I fear you may be right. I just stupidly assumed this was real science, if on the cutting edge of experimentation.

Cicero · 4th December 2010, 08:39 AM

I thought it was curious that the Pentagon would have waived the policy of not awarding medals to war dogs, but it turns out Lex's decoration was not official, but merely a commemorative presentation of a Purple Heart medal donated by an actual Purple Heart recipient.

The only time a war dog was officially awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart was in 1943 to Chips, a mixed breed GSD/husky/collie, who stormed a pillbox in Sicily and forced the surrender of its inhabitants. But because William Thomas, the then national commander of the of the Military Order of the Purple Heart, protested to FDR and the War Department that only humans can be awarded War Department decorations, Chips was forced to return his decorations.

Drachasor · 4th December 2010, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cicero

I thought it was curious that the Pentagon would have waived the policy of not awarding medals to war dogs, but it turns out Lex's decoration was not official, but merely a commemorative presentation of a Purple Heart medal donated by an actual Purple Heart recipient.

The only time a war dog was officially awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart was in 1943 to Chips, a mixed breed GSD/husky/collie, who stormed a pillbox in Sicily and forced the surrender of its inhabitants. But because William Thomas, the then national commander of the of the Military Order of the Purple Heart, protested to FDR and the War Department that only humans can be awarded War Department decorations, Chips was forced to return his decorations.

That's crazy. The dog deserves a medal for that. Poor Chips. : (

Cicero · 4th December 2010, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Drachasor

That's crazy. The dog deserves a medal for that. Poor Chips. : (

At least Chips actually was awarded the Silver Star and Purple Heart before some putz decided heroism is only recognized by the Pentagon when it is performed by man and not his best friend.

30th November 2010, 08:15 AM	#1
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	U.S. Marine German Shepherd Awarded Purple Heart-Gets Stem Cell Surgery Marine dog hurt in Iraq when handler killed to have surgery, hopefully continue new mission" "The commemorative Purple Heart recipient is in his 70s - in people years. In dog years, he's pushing 10. But Lex, a Marine Corps bomb-sniffing canine whose master died in the same 2007 attack in Iraq, is getting help with his war injuries. Like many retired veterans, he faces the challenge of aging while coping with health problems. On Sunday, the German shepherd flew to Washington, D.C., where he will receive a specialized stem cell exchange surgery in hopes of rejuvenating his aging bones."
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

30th November 2010, 08:47 AM	#2
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,409	Originally Posted by Cicero the German shepherd [....] will receive a specialized stem cell exchange surgery in hopes of rejuvenating his aging bones. As a vet, all I can say is, WUT??? Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

30th November 2010, 08:52 AM	#3
Blogiston Scholar Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Bony Scotchland nr Londonland Posts: 70	Originally Posted by Rolfe As a vet, all I can say is, WUT??? That's a coincidence, the dog's a vet too. You don't often see that.
	__________________ _{Keep a fire burning in your eye, Pay attention to the open sky, You never know what will be coming down...}

30th November 2010, 08:58 AM	#4
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,883	Sounds like an experimental procedure on an animal with no other hope. Go for it, in the hopes that it will advance medical knowledge for the treatment of humans.
casebro Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 6,883	__________________ Please pardon me for having ideas, not facts. Some have called me cynical, but I don't believe them. It's not how many breaths you take. It's how many times you have been breathless that counts.

30th November 2010, 08:59 AM	#5
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Rolfe As a vet, all I can say is, WUT??? Rolfe. Vets charge $5k+ for this procedure. Had the Adequan® injections not worked for my GSD's elbow injury, he was going to have had this procedure done.
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

30th November 2010, 09:06 AM	#6
Blogiston Scholar Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Bony Scotchland nr Londonland Posts: 70	Originally Posted by casebro Sounds like an experimental procedure on an animal with no other hope. Go for it, in the hopes that it will advance medical knowledge for the treatment of humans. Hopefully, it will be canine derived stem cell material, and not human! I think it was Al Gore who warned against creating what he called, manbearpig, i.e. half man, half bear, half pig, by tampering with the DNA of a man, a bear and a pig. I think, I'm not real sure.
	__________________ _{Keep a fire burning in your eye, Pay attention to the open sky, You never know what will be coming down...}

30th November 2010, 09:22 AM	#7
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,409	Originally Posted by Cicero Vets charge $5k+ for this procedure. Had the Adequan® injections not worked for my GSD's elbow injury, he was going to have had this procedure done. It's not my speciality, but I have to say I've never heard of it. I don't even know if it's woo or not. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

30th November 2010, 09:55 AM	#8
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by casebro Sounds like an experimental procedure on an animal with no other hope. Go for it, in the hopes that it will advance medical knowledge for the treatment of humans. That's exactly what I was thinking -- it's not a stupid waste of money, but an experiment for this kind of procedure. Not only do they have to prove the concept, but they have to hack out a reliable way for it to work.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

30th November 2010, 11:48 AM	#9
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,409	Or it could be woo. It actually sounds very suspiciously woo-ish to me. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

30th November 2010, 12:15 PM	#10
Drachasor Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,718	Actually, stem cell treatments for dogs have been around for quite a while now and from what I understand they work fairly well. There wasn't any kind of freeze on the research like there was for humans, so it's continued to advanced.

30th November 2010, 12:27 PM	#11
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Rolfe Or it could be woo. It actually sounds very suspiciously woo-ish to me. Rolfe. Don't know for sure as my GSD didn't undergo this procedure, but there is evidence of it being successful. http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2010/08/g...-cell-therapy/
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

30th November 2010, 12:40 PM	#12
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,409	Originally Posted by Cicero Don't know for sure as my GSD didn't undergo this procedure, but there is evidence of it being successful. http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2010/08/g...-cell-therapy/ Oh dear. Originally Posted by Cicero's link When it comes to improving the lives of the animals he treats, veterinarian Brian Voynick isn’t afraid to try something new. He’s been doing acupuncture on dogs for some 15 years. So when Voynick first heard about stem cell therapy for small animals like cats and dogs four years ago at a conference on holistic veterinary medicine, That's not research, that's woo-mongering of the first water. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

30th November 2010, 12:58 PM	#13
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Rolfe Oh dear. That's not research, that's woo-mongering of the first water. Rolfe. What does acupuncture have to do with stem cells derived from an animal’s fat to treat pain and inflammation from ailments like arthritis and hip dysplasia? Is the critter in on the woo?
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

30th November 2010, 01:10 PM	#14
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,409	Cicero, that page isn't describing basic, groundbreaking veterinary research. It's describing a woo vet who will try anything he hears about at a "holistic" veterinary conference. Holistic is code for "alternative" woo medicine. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

30th November 2010, 01:12 PM	#15
Drachasor Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,718	Originally Posted by Rolfe Cicero, that page isn't describing basic, groundbreaking veterinary research. It's describing a woo vet who will try anything he hears about at a "holistic" veterinary conference. Holistic is code for "alternative" woo medicine. Rolfe. I'll see if I can find something on stem cell research on dogs. My understanding was that it worked quite well. For what it is worth, a guy who'll try things that don't work can also try things that do. He just doesn't distinguish between the two.

30th November 2010, 01:15 PM	#16
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Rolfe Cicero, that page isn't describing basic, groundbreaking veterinary research. It's describing a woo vet who will try anything he hears about at a "holistic" veterinary conference. Holistic is code for "alternative" woo medicine. Rolfe. The page? As far as this thread is concerned, it was about one owner's account of their dog's stem cell operation. Of course there are others: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...-stem-cell.htm Robert Harman, the privately held company's CEO and founder, is a veterinarian and former bio-tech executive who says veterinarians have used his company's procedure to treat more than 2,500 horses, including a number of world-class racehorses, and more than 200 dogs with arthritis and tendon and ligament injuries. "The animals return to their prior level of performance about 75 percent of the time," says Harman. "There's no question that this is working." Harman says the only adverse side effects have been swelling at the injection site in a small number of cases. http://www.newsweek.com/2007/09/12/help-for-hounds.html
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

30th November 2010, 01:16 PM	#17
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 18,105	What good would stem cell therapy do for bones?
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

30th November 2010, 01:17 PM	#18
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,409	Let's see what the members who frequent the Science and Medicine forum area think of this. http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=193414 This isn't something you just "try out". This is something that would be the culmination of a huge body of cutting-edge research at the top universities. While it's not impossible this could have happened without getting on my radar, I'd be surprised, I have to say. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

30th November 2010, 01:23 PM	#19
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,409	Originally Posted by Cicero http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...-stem-cell.htm Robert Harman, the privately held company's CEO and founder, is a veterinarian and former bio-tech executive who says veterinarians have used his company's procedure to treat more than 2,500 horses, including a number of world-class racehorses, and more than 200 dogs with arthritis and tendon and ligament injuries. "The animals return to their prior level of performance about 75 percent of the time," says Harman. "There's no question that this is working." Harman says the only adverse side effects have been swelling at the injection site in a small number of cases. http://www.newsweek.com/2007/09/12/help-for-hounds.html The first link is broken for me. The second looks more promising, I agree, but the degree of commercialisation is still ringing alarm bells. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

30th November 2010, 01:43 PM	#20
Alferd_Packer Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7,279	Originally Posted by Rolfe As a vet, all I can say is, WUT??? Sholdn't that be "WOOF?"
	__________________ No laws of physics were broken in the writing of this post

30th November 2010, 01:56 PM	#21
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,409	Actually, at the moment, and subject to revision with fuller information, it's "WOO". Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

30th November 2010, 03:32 PM	#22
Drachasor Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,718	http://www.doggiestylish.com/store/2...dog-arthritis/ Best thing I could find going over it. From what it says, looks like it is most promising in horses. There's not a lot of research on this particular thing, it seems like.

30th November 2010, 04:04 PM	#23
Rolfe Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 34,409	Oh thanks, Drachasor. I'd started looking at the couple of publications by Harman about this, in a journal I don't recognise, and my woo-alert meter was firing on all cylinders. That blog post has done all the spade-work and has clearly identified the thing as a woo scam. The only publications on the subject seem to be by the company that's marketing the treatment, there seem only to be two of them, and they appear in a low-impact journal with unclear peer-review procedures. (It looks similar to our Veterinary Times, which used to be Veterinary Drug, which contains some very good and interesting material but is also quite willing to publish unadulterated woo.) The publications are 2007 and 2008. They are clinical trials, with no clear evidence of basic research leading to that point. In contrast a legitimate paper merely stating that adipose-derived stem cells seem to have potential in such therapy was published in September 2010. None of this means that the treatment is unsafe or ineffective, obviously. It does mean its unproven and non-evidence-based. That it's being touted by acupuncture adherents at "holistic" conferences is a very bad sign. Not to mention the price ticket. Following some more links, I found a short email discussion in my filed emails, initiated by Brennen Mackenzie, a member of a vets' email list I subscribe to. He has blogged on this very subject. http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/06/vet...l-join-forces/ http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/06/ste...t-on-our-pets/ Brennen tends to give some benefit of the doubt, but what he has to say is very troubling. Quote: the approach has significant biologic plausibility and some supportive in vitro and animal model evidence to suggest it may someday be a valuable clinical therapy. Unfortunately, the selling of it as a product for humans and, primarily via Vet Stem, for pets, is far out in front of the evidence that this hope will be borne out in the real world. My concern is that such weak evidence, even added to the suggestive pre-clinical information and to study results from other species, does not justify selling an invasive and expensive medical procedure to pet owners. I have little doubt that the promoters of these therapies believe they are safe and beneficial, and the current state of the evidence does not by any means show they are wrong. But the history of medicine makes it clear that such faith often turns out to be misplaced, and that shortcutting the process of vetting new therapies does more harm than good. We can only hope that does not turn out to be the case with these products. $5,000 for an experimental procedure with no independent evidence of safety or efficacy, seems a bit steep. In my view this is simply blatant profiteering. Rolfe.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012. Last edited by Rolfe; 30th November 2010 at 04:06 PM.

2nd December 2010, 07:17 AM	#24
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Rolfe Oh dear. That's not research, that's woo-mongering of the first water. Rolfe. Ahhh, I fear you may be right. I just stupidly assumed this was real science, if on the cutting edge of experimentation.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

4th December 2010, 08:39 AM	#25
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	I thought it was curious that the Pentagon would have waived the policy of not awarding medals to war dogs, but it turns out Lex's decoration was not official, but merely a commemorative presentation of a Purple Heart medal donated by an actual Purple Heart recipient. The only time a war dog was officially awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart was in 1943 to Chips, a mixed breed GSD/husky/collie, who stormed a pillbox in Sicily and forced the surrender of its inhabitants. But because William Thomas, the then national commander of the of the Military Order of the Purple Heart, protested to FDR and the War Department that only humans can be awarded War Department decorations, Chips was forced to return his decorations.
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

4th December 2010, 12:16 PM	#26
Drachasor Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,718	Originally Posted by Cicero I thought it was curious that the Pentagon would have waived the policy of not awarding medals to war dogs, but it turns out Lex's decoration was not official, but merely a commemorative presentation of a Purple Heart medal donated by an actual Purple Heart recipient. The only time a war dog was officially awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart was in 1943 to Chips, a mixed breed GSD/husky/collie, who stormed a pillbox in Sicily and forced the surrender of its inhabitants. But because William Thomas, the then national commander of the of the Military Order of the Purple Heart, protested to FDR and the War Department that only humans can be awarded War Department decorations, Chips was forced to return his decorations. That's crazy. The dog deserves a medal for that. Poor Chips. : (

4th December 2010, 05:43 PM	#27
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Drachasor That's crazy. The dog deserves a medal for that. Poor Chips. : ( At least Chips actually was awarded the Silver Star and Purple Heart before some putz decided heroism is only recognized by the Pentagon when it is performed by man and not his best friend.
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861