Moderated: Julian Assange: rapist or not?

[egslim]

With all the headlines about wikileaks, and a warrant out for mr Assange's arrest on suspicion of rape, I came across an article from the Daily Mail about the origin for these alegations. My intention for this thread is to focus on the question if mr Assange committed rape or not, based on the available information of what happened between the women and him.

Daily Mail
The article is from august.

Quote:

The Mail on Sunday has managed to obtain copies of the women’s police statements, which are made available to the media in Sweden. Though heavily redacted, with details of the sex allegations blacked out, they make uncomfortable reading.
[...]
According to a police source: ‘They (Assange and 'Woman A', ed) had a discussion and decided it would be OK to share the living space, then went out together for dinner.
'When they got back they had sexual relations, but there was a problem with the condom - it had split.
'She seemed to think that he had done this deliberately but he insisted that it was an accident.’
Whatever her views about the incident, she appeared relaxed and untroubled at the seminar the next day where Assange met Woman B, another pretty blonde, also in her 20s, but younger than Woman A.
[...]
One source close to the investigation said the woman had insisted he wear a condom, but the following morning he made love to her without one.
This was the basis for the rape charge. But after the event she seemed unruffled enough to go out to buy food for his breakfast.
[...]
They parted on friendly terms and she bought his train ticket back to Stockholm. When she asked if he would call, he said: ‘Yes, I will.’

Assuming the above citations are factual.

Are these examples of rape? Mr Assange certainly appears promiscuous, but there's nothing illegal about that.

I find Woman B's accusation of rape ludicrous. Woman gets raped, goes out to buy rapist breakfast, buys him a trainticket and sees him off, asks if he will call her. That's not rape, that's consensual sex she afterwards regretted.

Woman A's accusation is almost as crazy. It seems impossible to tell if the condom split deliberately or accidentally, and a person is innocent until proven guilty. Either way, both women did not go to the police until after they had talked with eachother and found out they had both had sex with mr Assange.

It gets better, with this article from Crikey
The women are named there, it seems 'Woman A' is Ardin and 'Woman B' is Wilén.

Quote:

In the case of Ardin it is clear that she has thrown a party in Assange’s honour at her flat after the “crime” and tweeted to her followers that she is with the “the world’s coolest smartest people, it’s amazing!”. Go on the internet and see for yourself. That Ardin has sought unsuccessfully to delete these exculpatory tweets from the public record should be a matter of grave concern. That she has published on the internet a guide on how to get revenge on cheating boyfriends ever graver.

Woman gets raped, then throws party in rapists' honour. No further comment necessary.

This wasn't rape, these were two women who are after revenge because they felt cheated upon. Which I consider more than a little naive on their part. If you have sex with someone famous outside a relationship it's unlikely you're their only conquest.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Anyone have any evidence Sweden has prosecuted anyone else for consensual sex without a condom? And this is an extraditable charge?

How can anyone take this charge seriously?

[fuelair]

If it gets him caught and halted, I really don't care. I admit it would bother me otherwise, but not with what he has done.

[a_unique_person]

If the files had been leaked to the newspapers that are publishing them, they still would have published them. Publishing leaked files is not a criminal act. To a large extent, they only confirm what everyone knew already.

[Childlike Empress]

This affair is deeply embarrassing for the cute communist kingdom of Sweden. From one of the cables already released:

Quote:

Sweden's official security policy is non-participation in military alliances during peacetime and neutrality during wartime. Its active participation in the NATO Partnership for Peace and its role in leading the European Union's 1,500 troops-strong Nordic Battle group give the lie to the official policy. [...] Within the EU, Sweden often takes positions that coincide with our own on issues as diverse as the DOHA round, EU enlargement and Turkey, Swift banking data privacy, and the EU's relationship with Cuba.

[egslim]

Originally Posted by fuelair

If it gets him caught and halted,

Caught? Possibly.

Convicted for rape? Based on this information - I really don't think so.

Convicted for publishing leaked information? Not without a charge, and none has been filed so far.

Halted? No way. Wikileaks will continue to release the 251,287 documents with or without mr Assange. Not to mention insurance.aes256, which has been widely spread through p2p, and will be opened if the password is released.

Mr Assange has the distinction of being the first person on Interpol's most wanted list due to a broken condom. The only way that could happen is if some angry and powerful governmentofficials made a few pressing phonecalls.
And it's pure harassment, because the rape-charge is laughable and no other charge has been filed.

[INRM]

I don't think he did it; I think this is just a reprisal for Wikileaks

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by INRM

I don't think he did it; I think this is just a reprisal for Wikileaks

what you think, is irrelevent. all that matters is what the facts say to the jury.

[cornsail]

I hate it when condoms wikileak.

[egslim]

Originally Posted by INRM

I don't think he did it; I think this is just a reprisal for Wikileaks

Please read the opening post, or the articles for more details.

He did have sex with the two women, but it appears it was consensual - until they found out about each other.

[casebro]

Isn't the UK appraising the warrant before deciding to extradite? Where is that going?

[ThunderChunky]

Originally Posted by Thunder

what you think, is irrelevent. all that matters is what the facts say to the jury.

That's a stupid world view.

[JJM 777]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

And this is an extraditable charge?

How can anyone take this charge seriously?

I heard that if found guilty, Assange will be fined 750 EUR or something. Doesn't sound like an extraditable charge, and sounds like he should use a mediator to settle the case and pay the 750 EUR. Unless it makes him officially a "sex offender".

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by egslim

Caught? Possibly.

Convicted for rape? Based on this information - I really don't think so.

Convicted for publishing leaked information? Not without a charge, and none has been filed so far.

Halted? No way. Wikileaks will continue to release the 251,287 documents with or without mr Assange. Not to mention insurance.aes256, which has been widely spread through p2p, and will be opened if the password is released.

Mr Assange has the distinction of being the first person on Interpol's most wanted list due to a broken condom. The only way that could happen is if some angry and powerful governmentofficials made a few pressing phonecalls.
And it's pure harassment, because the rape-charge is laughable and no other charge has been filed.

Possibly my use of the word halted was misleading. I am unconcerned as to what brings him to easily accessible, merely that it occurs. I suspect the rest can be easily handled - and the systems will be far better as things move along. As I have stated before (in mildly different terms), he is a little kid showing off for real people by being naughty. Nothing he leaked will shake up anything that actually needs shaking (why I admire Ellsberg, but find Assange obnoxious). In both cases there were no actual surprises (for anyone with an IQ over 100), but Ellsberg's verified suspicions of something that was harmful for the US, though done by some elements of it,
while Assange's prove that diplomacy is still operating exactly as it always has and, likely, always will BUT have also, directly and indirectly, certainly caused (with more to come) problems with/between Afghans and US troops, Iran (I'm fine with that) and it's neighbors - not to mention probably making it unlikely they will be able to functionally support any clean-up of Iran (I'm not fine with that). And some others, watch and see.

[cornsail]

Julian Assange turned me into a newt. Call interpol.

[Doctor Evil]

Originally Posted by cornsail

Julian Assange turned me into a newt. Call interpol.

And yet you can type. I assume that you got better, then?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by cornsail

I hate it when condoms wikileak.

FTW!

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by egslim

He did have sex with the two women, but it appears it was consensual - until they found out about each other.

Information wants to be free!

[Toontown]

I haven't looked into the rape charges, but one fact is certain: Julian Assange does not have good sense. He has pissed off half the governments on earth, including his own. And the other half don't like him.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Toontown

I haven't looked into the rape charges, but one fact is certain: Julian Assange does not have good sense. He has pissed off half the governments on earth, including his own. And the other half don't like him.

Well, truth hurts.

[PhantomWolf]

From the article it seems that the women weren't out to have him charged, it was the police and prosecutor that decided that there had been a voliation of the law, the women just wanted to force him to be tested.

Still hasn't changed my opinion of the guy though, he's a prick. You don't screw around on people and if you do have unprotected sex and your partner wants testing, then you do it to alay their fears however irrational they might be. The guy needs to learn to keep it in his pants.

[cornsail]

Originally Posted by Doctor Evil

And yet you can type. I assume that you got better, then?

Oh yeah. I forgot to add that.

[McHrozni]

Originally Posted by egslim

Assuming the above citations are factual.

There is a sentence in the quote that puts a big question mark over this:

Though heavily redacted, with details of the sex allegations blacked out,

From what was released, no, that doesn't seem to be rape. But with the details blacked out one can't really say.

Judging from the report, he's an *******.

McHrozni

[BobHaulk]

Originally Posted by fuelair

If it gets him caught and halted, I really don't care. I admit it would bother me otherwise, but not with what he has done.

What has he done exactly? Exposing the hypocrisy of some representatives of the american government maybe, making them look like the liars they are. Maybe you think it's good that they say one thing in public and another in private but i don't. It's time for these people to stand up and be counted, explain themselves instead of blaming the messenger. Especially when british soldiers are being killed and some desk jockey is slagging off the troops. We british should get out of there and leave it to the super duper american soldiers. It's seems they don't even have respect for the men and women who are laying there lives down for some spurious war started by the americans and thanks to wikileaks we now know.

[Barney Gumble]

Not sure about Sweden's laws but most countries would be able to prosecute if Assange had a communicable disease and knowingly then had unprotected sex. Still wouldn't be a rape charge though if the actual sex act was consenting by both parties, the only exception to this would be if one of the girls was under the legal age of consent, this would be classed as rape even if she consented, referred to as carnal knowledge.

[egslim]

Originally Posted by McHrozni

From what was released, no, that doesn't seem to be rape. But with the details blacked out one can't really say.

The document shows neither of the women considered it rape, until they found out about eachother. That fact disqualifies it as rape.

Originally Posted by Barney Gumble

Not sure about Sweden's laws but most countries would be able to prosecute if Assange had a communicable disease and knowingly then had unprotected sex. Still wouldn't be a rape charge though if the actual sex act was consenting by both parties, the only exception to this would be if one of the girls was under the legal age of consent, this would be classed as rape even if she consented, referred to as carnal knowledge.

The women were both in their 20s, so legal age is not an issue.

For the communicable disease no evidence has been brought out

[geni]

Originally Posted by fuelair

If it gets him caught and halted, I really don't care. I admit it would bother me otherwise, but not with what he has done.

Your support for scientology is noted (what you thought the US goverment were the only goup he's pissed off?).

[geni]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Information wants to be free!

Information wants to be expensive.

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by Thunder

what you think, is irrelevent. all that matters is what the facts say to the jury.

Considering the thread is called "Julian Assange: rapist or not?" I would say that INRM's opinion is perfectly valid.

[egslim]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

From the article it seems that the women weren't out to have him charged, it was the police and prosecutor that decided that there had been a voliation of the law, the women just wanted to force him to be tested.

Still hasn't changed my opinion of the guy though, he's a prick. You don't screw around on people and if you do have unprotected sex and your partner wants testing, then you do it to alay their fears however irrational they might be. The guy needs to learn to keep it in his pants.

The guy may be a lot of things, but based on this information there's no reason to consider him a rapist. That part is pure smear.

[JJM 777]

Originally Posted by Barney Gumble

most countries would be able to prosecute if Assange had a communicable disease and knowingly then had unprotected sex. Still wouldn't be a rape charge though

It would be a violent assault charge.

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by egslim

The guy may be a lot of things, but based on this information there's no reason to consider him a rapist. That part is pure smear.

I know that "rapist" and "Prick" share several letters in common, but they aren't the same word.

[egslim]

Originally Posted by fuelair

Possibly my use of the word halted was misleading. I am unconcerned as to what brings him to easily accessible, merely that it occurs. I suspect the rest can be easily handled - and the systems will be far better as things move along.

To be honest, it would help me if you were more explicit instead of euphemistic. But let's see if I understand.

- You want mr Assange in the hands of the authorities ('easily accessible').

Then what?
This accusation of rape won't survive a court-case.

Assuming you don't want him set free again, I see two possibilities.
1) Either you expect that having him under arrest for a phoney charge makes it easier to file a charge against him that he can be succesfully prosecuted for.
If that's your line of thought, you have to explain why the phoney charge would make it easier.
2) Or you expect that once he's in the hands of the authorities, he can be locked up indefinately without prosecution or maybe 'accidentally' get killed.
If that's what you're thinking of I'd like you to state it explicitely.

Maybe I missed a possibility, if so please enlighten me.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by egslim

I find Woman B's accusation of rape ludicrous. Woman gets raped, goes out to buy rapist breakfast, buys him a trainticket and sees him off, asks if he will call her. That's not rape, that's consensual sex she afterwards regretted.

Woman A's accusation is almost as crazy. It seems impossible to tell if the condom split deliberately or accidentally, and a person is innocent until proven guilty. Either way, both women did not go to the police until after they had talked with each other and found out they had both had sex with mr Assange.

That seems indeed the crucial point here - they felt cheated upon when they heard each other's stories. Which is naive to say the least - especially for Ardin ("Woman A"), who is a university lecturer on gender equality. While Wélin ("Woman B") literally threw herself at him. From this story, the rape charges are trumped up for political reasons - I know, it's the Daily Fail, but then I'd rather think they'd sex up the story, not sex it down.

The wisest thing for Assange would be to do a test for STDs to allay their fears. That may very well be very impractical for him right now ("which address do we send the results to, mr. Assange?"), and he may also fear that when he walks out of the doctor's office an arrest team is there to greet him.

Originally Posted by egslim

Halted? No way. Wikileaks will continue to release the 251,287 documents with or without mr Assange. Not to mention insurance.aes256, which has been widely spread through p2p, and will be opened if the password is released.

My torrent client says: seeding to 8 of 12 connected peers.

[egslim]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

I know that "rapist" and "Prick" share several letters in common, but they aren't the same word.

Apologies, I didn't mean to imply that. I just wanted to emphasize the point, since it pisses me off to see so many headlines and comments accuse someone of rape when a simple look at the facts would convince the vast majority that he's no rapist.

[egslim]

Originally Posted by ddt

I know, it's the Daily Fail, but then I'd rather think they'd sex up the story, not sex it down.

Reading the article, they conclude:

Quote:

Whatever the outcome, one thing is certain – Assange’s attempts to portray himself as an online saint, exposing the secrets of the superpowers, has been dealt a damaging blow.

So they considered the article damaging to his reputation, instead of as support against the allegation of rape.

My client says 19/1361 peers, and 2976 seeds.

[ddt]

Originally Posted by egslim

1) Either you expect that having him under arrest for a phoney charge makes it easier to file a charge against him that he can be succesfully prosecuted for.
If that's your line of thought, you have to explain why the phoney charge would make it easier.

Extradition might be easier? Rape is a crime that is ubiquitously recognized. Publishing leaked documents not.

Originally Posted by egslim

2) Or you expect that once he's in the hands of the authorities, he can be locked up indefinately without prosecution or maybe 'accidentally' get killed.
If that's what you're thinking of I'd like you to state it explicitely.

Once you have him you can charge him with, say, terrorism. In Holland too, you can be detained indefinitely when charged with that; and no evidence needed.

[KoihimeNakamura]

You know, I think it cute how releasing confidental information is cheered when it's not yours

Sent from my Droid

[egslim]

Originally Posted by ddt

Extradition might be easier? Rape is a crime that is ubiquitously recognized. Publishing leaked documents not.

But you can't extradite someone to the US for an alleged crime in Sweden.

Quote:

Once you have him you can charge him with, say, terrorism. In Holland too, you can be detained indefinitely when charged with that; and no evidence needed.

Publication of information is not terrorism.

If fuelair wants mr Assange locked up indefinately without legal justification, I want him to state that explicitely.

Unlike most suspects of terrorism, mr Assange is a high-profile target. I think a lot of people who don't support his publications will still be appalled if he gets locked up for it indefinately without legal justification.

[TubbaBlubba]

Based on the story, no, he's not a rapist. A jerk, maybe, but not a rapist.