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23rd December 2010, 06:28 AM | #1 |
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Catholic church cuts support for hospital for saving womans life.
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23rd December 2010, 01:22 PM | #2 |
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Par for the course. I don't find the situation to be all that outrageous.
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23rd December 2010, 02:03 PM | #3 |
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Absolutely -our reasons may differ though. I love to see religions do the conservative thing because the most important thing it will accomplish is help them hold onto their more conservative members - while, at the same time, driving away more and more of the brighter and younger an intelligent responce might have left them with. Cool by me!!!.
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23rd December 2010, 02:05 PM | #4 |
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Whatever will doctors do if they don't have committees of Catholic priests to back up their diagnoses and treatment plans?
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23rd December 2010, 02:08 PM | #5 |
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This is what you get when you believe in some dogmatic truth. You get the inability to see things for what they are.
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23rd December 2010, 02:21 PM | #6 |
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Most outrageous-yet-not-unexpected quote in the article (bolding mine):
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23rd December 2010, 02:58 PM | #7 |
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23rd December 2010, 03:12 PM | #8 |
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Every notice the stories about women who get stoned in other belief systems for such items, that appear to go against the belief of the 'system' but in this case, the church (the system) is trying to harm thousands because someone held compassion over belief. I would bet with a public apology, some big tithing and a few hail mary's and our fathers, who could not forgive? |
23rd December 2010, 03:20 PM | #9 |
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23rd December 2010, 03:31 PM | #10 |
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Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; and Knowledge is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.
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23rd December 2010, 03:46 PM | #11 |
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23rd December 2010, 05:54 PM | #12 |
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23rd December 2010, 07:01 PM | #13 |
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23rd December 2010, 07:20 PM | #14 |
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***Newsflash***
Catholic Church opposses abortion In other news...water is found to be wet, sky is confirmed as blue |
23rd December 2010, 07:24 PM | #15 |
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I just caught something on NPR that I think said the Arizona church leadership decision is now being challenged by other parts of the church. I'll post a link if I come across one.
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23rd December 2010, 07:38 PM | #16 |
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Is it "abortion" in the sense of the Chruch's general opposition when the fetus is going to die during pregnancy? Keeping in mind that all fetal deaths are medically abortions regardless of the cause, and that generally the opposition to abortion is about intentional avoidable abortions. The story seems to be talking about a case of pre-eclampsia. As far as I understand when pre-eclampsia happens in a pregnancy that is too early to result in a viable induced labor or cesarian birth the fetus is doomed as the mother will not survive to term regardless.
Anecdotally, the Catholic hospital in Portland, OR will not perform abortions but will allow training in it and put you in contact with a medical office that will perform it. Sometimes it is the same doctor. They also perform various birth control procedures and prescribe the pill. You just have to pick up your prescription elsewhere. They also give full benefits to domestic partnerships as marriages, which are usually same-sex situations. What it appears to me is that the medical community under the auspice of Catholic authority in the US does not necessarily agree with the priestly community on these issues. |
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23rd December 2010, 07:58 PM | #17 |
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23rd December 2010, 08:00 PM | #18 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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23rd December 2010, 08:02 PM | #19 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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23rd December 2010, 08:19 PM | #20 |
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Well it is good anyone who wants to follow the Catholic Faith doesn't know this. Better that once you are in, it is a lifetime commitment and you can not under any circumstances get out.
And perhaps most disapointing of all the Church has this annoying confessional ritual that lets you get square with the house Complete bloodthirsty bastards I tell you |
23rd December 2010, 08:29 PM | #21 |
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Not blood thirsty, merely apathetic. They really don't care about the lives of women at all.
They have been clear that saving the life of an 8 year old is a much greater crime in the eyes of their god that raping said 8 year old. That is why sex crimes are no big deal to the catholic church but aborting the pregnancy in the 8 year old get you damned for all eternity. |
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23rd December 2010, 08:34 PM | #22 |
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23rd December 2010, 08:40 PM | #23 |
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23rd December 2010, 08:41 PM | #24 |
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Woah Tiger!!
I'm an atheist, was a catholic, [briefly] attended seminary and I managed to 'get out'. My name is still on the list, but I'm as catholic as you are today. The point here is that the diocese is only doing what the boss has done time and time again; feck the innocent, feck every one, I want my blood. Spill it or burn it, it all smells good to him. |
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23rd December 2010, 08:54 PM | #25 |
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23rd December 2010, 09:01 PM | #26 |
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So hang on, it seems to me the hospital is a room up (can use the room they gave mass in) and a few nuts down (no more fiddling ethically vacant catholics running round like they own the place) on this deal, which is overall pretty decent?
If I was the hospital admin, I'd be pretty chuffed at the result. At least something good has come of tragedy. |
23rd December 2010, 09:07 PM | #27 |
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I would point out that this isn't about them wanting the woman to die, but that the Hospital didn't attempt to save both the women and the fetus.
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Whether that decision was right or wrong I'm not going to debate since I'm not a medical expert. |
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23rd December 2010, 09:45 PM | #28 |
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Which probably is a misrepresentation of what the medical staff did. Not that this is your claim, but I doubt the Church's claim that the medical staff did not consider how to save both. It is possible the doctors decided to ignore doing their job and just said abort, but that sounds unlikely. Perhaps it was an emergency situation and they had to make a sudden decision. That is quite common with pre-eclampsia. I bore witness to a similiar situation from the side lines. It is pretty rough for the pregnant woman both emotionally and physically. The situation and can turn south in minutes. Discovering the cause of the situation is difficult. Medical staff can do a huge battery of tests and attempt different treatments to see what the underlying problem is, but if the woman starts to die there is a heavy time constraint and not much in the way of options. I am also not a medical expert, so without evidence to the contrary I am going to trust that the medical experts actually followed their duty. |
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24th December 2010, 08:47 AM | #29 |
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Given what I heard on NPR yesterday, and read at USA Today, what I think is going to happen is the bishop who was pulling his support, and the hospital, will come to some agreement, that allows the hospital to continue as it was, the doctors to not be shown to have committed any fault, and the bishop to save face.
Probably something along the lines of the bishop saying the hospital has agreed to further training (and maybe process development) to insure it supports the church's direction on abortion. |
24th December 2010, 12:26 PM | #30 |
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Hostility towards women ... apathy towards children ... sins must be paid in blood ...
Are we discussing the Roman Catholic Church or Islam? |
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25th December 2010, 04:55 PM | #31 |
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25th December 2010, 04:59 PM | #32 |
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Quote:
Phoenix hospital that performed abortion no longer Catholic
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25th December 2010, 05:20 PM | #33 |
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Since I would imagine that Bishop and co have better things to do than review every single case, I expect that in this case someone made a complaint to them and they acted on the belief that the Hospital had acted inappropriately. It seems that now they have talked with the Hospital who has clarified why they acted the way they did, the decision has been reversed.
Now don't get me wrong here, I'm far from a supporter of the Catholic Church, but at the same time I am a supporter of only accusing people of things they have actually done, and from this story this isn't an example of them thinking they know better, nor is it a case of them thinking nothing about the woman's life. In fact it's exactly the opposite; they got the idea right, even if they were given the wrong facts. The Hospital does have a duty of care to both patients and arbitrarily deciding that one should die without considering options to save both would have been a serious malpractice, so believing that to be the case, the Bishop did the right thing. The issue is that whoever informed the Bishop appears to have gotten the wrong end of the stick, and to the Bishop's credit, when presented with the correct facts he's reversed the decision. |
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25th December 2010, 06:16 PM | #34 |
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After the hullaballoo surrounding Jodie and "Mary", the Maltese baby and her non-viable parasitic "twin", I didn't think the Catholic church could stoop any lower.
Rolfe. |
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25th December 2010, 09:20 PM | #35 |
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This is pretty weak argument. Did you look at the link in my post? The issues have been going on for a long time. The church wanted the hospital to stop providing birth control. Don't know what that was about but if you had a medical condition where pregnancy would put your life at risk, what are those women supposed to do?
As for the current 'abortion', this did not happen yesterday or even a week ago. There has been more than enough time for the Bishop responsible for making this decision to investigate the medical necessity of a woman with pulmonary hypertension not continuing a pregnancy. This happened at 11 weeks gestation. That suggests either a new diagnosis and probably a devastating news for a newly pregnant woman, or a woman who knew a pregnancy was a death sentence who got pregnant accidentally. There are two life threatening conditions involving hypertension and pregnancy. The most common one is eclampsia. It can result in a hypertensive crisis during pregnancy and if it cannot be controlled immediate cessation of the pregnancy is the only option to save the woman's life. And if you don't save the woman, it isn't like you can choose to save a fetus of 11 weeks gestation by letting the woman die. THERE IS NOTHING ARBITRARY ABOUT IT! The article I linked to said the medical condition was pulmonary hypertension. Life expectancy after a diagnosis of primary pulmonary hypertension is 3 years!!!!!
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On top of that devastating diagnosis in a young woman, and who knows what circumstances surrounded the pregnancy, the woman's plight was piled on by this idiot Bishop who clearly didn't understand and didn't make an effort to understand the medical circumstances in the case. Your apology for the Bishop is a fail. Regardless of complaints from whomever breached this woman's medical confidentiality, the Bishop could have discovered what MEDICAL NECESSITY meant in this case. Apparently he ignored the medical opinions in favor of his own ignorant one. |
26th December 2010, 05:24 AM | #36 |
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It's not supposed to be an argument, it was pointing out something that it seems people here have overlooked in their fondness to attack anything religious without looking at it.
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Without arguing the wrongs or rights of the policy (since I personally disagree with most of it) if the Hospital knew that to have Catholic Association it was to follow the U.S. bishops’ Ethical and Religious Directives and it disagreed with those directives, then it should have pulled the plug on the whole deal 7 years ago. To not do so they were basically giving lip service to the church and then holding up two fingers behind their back.
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Final note: I thought that in the end you and the other anti-religion people here should be cheering him for getting religion out of Health care by severing the link between the Hospital and the Church. |
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26th December 2010, 01:01 PM | #37 |
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26th December 2010, 01:26 PM | #38 |
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Non-Catholic hospitals have Mass in their chapels all the time--including those who perform abortions under all circumstances. I've attended Mass several times in a hospital that performs abortions every single day. In fact, the assigned priest refused to hear confession of patients who had just terminated their pregnancies, and the hospital administration reported him to the diocese. Apparently that was against church rules. |
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26th December 2010, 01:39 PM | #39 |
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More than that, there's the complete obliviousness by the Church that the scandal was not caused by the abortion itself, but rather by the fact that it was opposed by the Church and that the Church took the position that the mother should die along with the baby rather than an abortion be performed.
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26th December 2010, 01:49 PM | #40 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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