So based on what evidence did you believe in the first place?

Oliver · 28th December 2010, 05:41 AM

None?

.
.
.

Quite frankly, that's not much evidence to begin with, is it?

Spindrift · 28th December 2010, 05:44 AM

Believe what?

Gord_in_Toronto · 28th December 2010, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

None?

.
.
.

Quite frankly, that's not much evidence to begin with, is it?

That's sufficiently inarticulate to provide evidence that you need MORE COFFEE.

Bikewer · 28th December 2010, 05:50 AM

Why, the nuns told me, of course. Catholic school was an interesting exercise in "inculcation" back in the 50s. We were thrust into daily mass, in Latin, without a clue as to what the Hell was going on. Stand, kneel, sit... repeat funny-sounding phrases...
Only gradually were you clued in as to what was going on and then gradually introduced to religious concepts outside of mere ceremony.
Never was exposed to anything else through my formative years....

Oliver · 28th December 2010, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Spindrift

Believe what?

Believe in an religious entity, god, prophet or some similar stupid topic based on non-existing evidence ...

Limbo · 28th December 2010, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

None?

.
.
.

Quite frankly, that's not much evidence to begin with, is it?

So based on what evidence do you believe there even is a "first place"? And you say "to begin with...", pardon me but were you even there at the beginning?

There You Are

You’re inside every kindness. When

a sick person feels better, you’re

that, and the onset of disease too.

You’re sudden, terrible screaming.

Some problems require we go for help:

when we knock on a stranger’s door,

you sent us. Nobody answers: it’s

you! When work feels necessary, you

are the way workers move in rhythm.

You are what is: the field, the players,

the ball, those watching. Someone

claims to have evidence that you do

not exist. You’re the one who brings

the evidence in, and the evidence

itself. You are inside the soul’s

great fear, every natural pleasure,

every vicious cruelty. You are in

every difference and irritation.

Someone loves something; someone else

hates the same. There you are.

Whatever eyes see, what anyone wants

or not: political power, injustice,

material possessions, those are your

script, the handwriting we study.

Body, soul, shadow. Whether reckless

or careful, you are what we do. It’s

absurd to ask your pardon. You’re

inside repentance, and sin! The wonder

of various jewels, agate, emerald.

How we are during a day, then at night,

you are those moods and qualities.

The pure compassion we feel for each

other. Every encampment has a tent

where the leader is and also the wide

truth of your imperial tent overall. -Rumi

Cainkane1 · 28th December 2010, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Believe in an religious entity, god, prophet or some similar stupid topic based on non-existing evidence ...

I believed in a diety because adults told me a diety existed. In those days faith required no proof. I grew up and changed my mind.

Spindrift · 28th December 2010, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

Believe in an religious entity, god, prophet or some similar stupid topic based on non-existing evidence ...

Not sure I ever really believed, but after years of parochial school I did go along with it for quite some time.

Halfcentaur · 28th December 2010, 05:59 AM

Beyond being told and conditioned in church from birth, the human need to see purpose in all things drove my belief. How strange, that the behavior which leads a monkey or ape to recognize a stone's ability to crush a nut, would lead to such overflow.

Oliver · 28th December 2010, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I believed in a diety because adults told me a diety existed. In those days faith required no proof. I grew up and changed my mind.

Which obviously seems to affirm that you're an intelligent person. What about the rest?

Spindrift · 28th December 2010, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

I believed in a diety because adults told me a diety existed. In those days faith required no proof. I grew up and changed my mind.

Was the adult who told you about the 'diety' Jenny Craig?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Oliver · 28th December 2010, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

Beyond being told and conditioned in church from birth, the human need to see purpose in all things drove my belief. How strange, that the behavior which leads a monkey or ape to recognize a stone's ability to crush a nut, would lead to such overflow.

Well, didn't you know that God created apes for the sole purpose of sending secret/hidden messages to those who do believe in everything that does not consider evidence?

Halfcentaur · 28th December 2010, 06:08 AM

Hallelujah!

Oliver · 28th December 2010, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Halfcentaur

Hallelujah!

Hallelujah based on what evidence?

Gawdzilla · 28th December 2010, 07:25 AM

The question would be more coherent if directed at conversions, I think. "What evidence persuaded you to change your mind about your old faith."

slingblade · 28th December 2010, 09:40 AM

I was indoctrinated as a child, Oliver, by people who said demanding proof of god is a sin.
That's the way it happens for many, if not most, believers. Some later reconsider, when they're older, and are able to re-evaluate. Most don't, however.

So the question is more properly "what evidence keeps you believing," rather than "what evidence prompted you to believe." In a broad sense, children don't really need evidence. That comes later. Maybe you never heard the children's song "Jesus loves me," but in it is all the rationale the average child would need: "The bible tells me so." It would be a rare child who recognized that as begging the question, especially without first being taught how.

TubbaBlubba · 28th December 2010, 09:43 AM

Self-delusion and authority, but I never had a very strong belief in the first place. It was a brief period around age 8-9 before I thought "this is all stupid".

George II · 29th December 2010, 09:54 AM

No evidence at all really. I beleived because I figured my parents wanted me to. Also, I somehow got the idea that if I didn't beleive, Jehovah would be angry and kill me, and I wouldn't be able to live in paradise. Seemed convincing enough to me when I was a kid.

My tiny amount of studying what the Bible really said were only attempts to rationalize my belief, to be honest. But I have feeling that's not quite so uncommon...

Schrodinger's Cat · 29th December 2010, 10:35 AM

Evidence? Since when is that a necessity for indoctrination? I'm going to refer to Alanis Morisette's "Forgiven" for my answer....

You know how us Catholic girls can be
We make up for so much time a little too late
I never forgot it, confusing as it was
No fun with no guilt feelings
The sinners, the saviors, the loverless priests
I'll see you next Sunday

We all had our reasons to be there
We all had a thing or two to learn
We all needed something to cling to
So we did

I sang alleluia in the choir
Ale alleluia, luia, luia
I confessed my darkest deeds to an envious man
My brothers they never went blind for what they did
But I may as well have
In the name of the father, the skeptic and the son
I had one more stupid question

We all had our reasons to be there
We all had a thing or two to learn
We all need something to cling to
So we did

What I learned I rejected but I believe again
I will suffer the consequence of this inquisition
If I jump in this fountain, will I be forgiven?

We all had our reasons to be there
We all had a thing or two to learn
We all needed something to cling to
So we did

But aside from that, I know there are people like edge and 154 who are constantly trying to prove there is "evidence" for their faith, but for a lot of people, faith is about, well, faith. It's not about needing proof. Though no longer Catholic or even Christian, I do still have some religious beliefs. I recognize there's no real evidence for them, that it's all based on emotions and feelings (and therefor, they may very well not be true at all). I know the difference between beliefs and factual knowledge, and I'm comfortable with that.

It's not like religion is the only thing this applies to. I married my husband on faith that he would remain the kind of man I love, and that he won't leave me for a 20 year old when he has a midlife crisis, that he'll remain in love with me, and several other factors. I don't really have any evidence that these things are true, but I have enough faith in him that I married him anyways, even though we can never know with certainty what our future will bring.

HansMustermann · 29th December 2010, 12:06 PM

Well, it's not just that adults told me, but you have to put it into context. I was at an age where Santa was real, the Easter Bunny was real, etc. They could have told me not just that Jesus is real, but at that the FSM and IPU too.

Plus, at that age things were a bit less miraculous.

I mean, Tom and Jerry hit each other with lead pipes, and got rolled over by steamrollers, and then popped right back. For all I knew, coming right back to life was just the normal thing that happened to everyone. That Jesus would come back after two days raised the only question: what took him so long?

Or for all I knew, children were brought by the stork. Exactly why couldn't a virgin get a baby delivered by the stork, even if by mistake, or why would someone make such a big deal out of that, wasn't clear at all to me. (ETA: and for that matter, WTH is a virgin, anyway?) Common sense would say that if it works anything like the post office, there must be thousands of babies delivered to the wrong people, and for all I knew, people probably mailed them back or something.

roger · 29th December 2010, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

It's not like religion is the only thing this applies to. I married my husband on faith that he would remain the kind of man I love, and that he won't leave me for a 20 year old when he has a midlife crisis, that he'll remain in love with me, and several other factors. I don't really have any evidence that these things are true, but I have enough faith in him that I married him anyways, even though we can never know with certainty what our future will bring.

Ya, except that's not faith to my mind, that's intelligently playing the odds. We have oddles of evidence that people don't capriciously change their spots (short of brain damage or such), we have evidence that well matched people enjoy that match up, we have evidence that single people don't live as long, etc.

I don't mean to play dictionary wars, but I have a lot of trouble equating that kind of 'faith' with religious faith, which is extolled as belief in something absent all of that evidence. Unless you married him 5 minutes after meeting him at a strip bar in Vegas or something, in which case I'd say faith is a wondrous thing!

Not that I have a problem with people that decide a deist sort of God makes the most sense to them. I've decided the many-worlds interpretation of QM is very likely false, absent any real evidence. It's the stronger claims that bother me, and the acts (not taking your kid to the doctor, say, because 'God will provide') that bother me yet more.

roger · 29th December 2010, 12:26 PM

Oh, and to answer the OP, I believed because that was what mommy told me was true, and I stopped believing not much past the time I stopped calling her mommy, and started noticing the wide gaps between her explanation of the world and how it actually appeared to work.

Schrodinger's Cat · 29th December 2010, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by roger

Ya, except that's not faith to my mind, that's intelligently playing the odds. We have oddles of evidence that people don't capriciously change their spots (short of brain damage or such), we have evidence that well matched people enjoy that match up, we have evidence that single people don't live as long, etc.

I don't mean to play dictionary wars, but I have a lot of trouble equating that kind of 'faith' with religious faith, which is extolled as belief in something absent all of that evidence. Unless you married him 5 minutes after meeting him at a strip bar in Vegas or something, in which case I'd say faith is a wondrous thing!

Not that I have a problem with people that decide a deist sort of God makes the most sense to them. I've decided the many-worlds interpretation of QM is very likely false, absent any real evidence. It's the stronger claims that bother me, and the acts (not taking your kid to the doctor, say, because 'God will provide') that bother me yet more.

No, that's a good point. I guess I think of it as "faith" more than playing the odds because it's not just like I am betting these things won't happen because it's statistically more likely that they won't, I really truly BELIEVE they won't.

But I see your point, and I agree that it's not the same thing as religious faith. I still think that there's an element of faith involved in my beliefs regarding my marriage, and in many other things, even if not to the degree of religion.

roger · 29th December 2010, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

But I see your point, and I agree that it's not the same thing as religious faith. I still think that there's an element of faith involved in my beliefs regarding my marriage, and in many other things, even if not to the degree of religion.

I grant you that, and often get a bit frustrated with how believers get treated or discussed on the forum. I mean, most people don't strive to get a philosophy degree and don't think about things like this deeply - they are just trying to get through the day consistent with their society's built in mores. My mother believed - she was not an idiot, IMO, just mistaken in her assessment of evidence.

X · 29th December 2010, 01:29 PM

I was brought to church as a child by my parents. From birth, onwards.
I believed, because I thought it was a given. Everyone I knew went to church (albeit a different church, as I went to a Roman Catholic school and a United Church). It was a bit of a shock to me when I went to a public high school and met people who didn't go to church.

Was there ever a reason? No.
It was, from infancy on, an unspoken assumption that a God existed. An assumption haled by everyone I knew. One reinforced continuously and uncritically by songs for kids and classroom discussion.

So as far as I knew, there was no reason not to believe. Even when I had serious questions. Even when I had first-hand experience of the sort of meaningless discrimination that happens when you happen to be part of a different denomination of the same religion. Even when I knew from my own explorations and from conversations with my theologically educated (from a realistic standpoint, rather than a "bible is true because it's true" standpoint) mother that the Bible was a human work, and the New Testament was mostly a deification of Jesus and guidelines for a church.

Oubliette · 29th December 2010, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by X

I was brought to church as a child by my parents. From birth, onwards.
I believed, because I thought it was a given. Everyone I knew went to church (albeit a different church, as I went to a Roman Catholic school and a United Church). It was a bit of a shock to me when I went to a public high school and met people who didn't go to church.

Was there ever a reason? No.
It was, from infancy on, an unspoken assumption that a God existed. An assumption haled by everyone I knew. One reinforced continuously and uncritically by songs for kids and classroom discussion.

So as far as I knew, there was no reason not to believe. Even when I had serious questions. Even when I had first-hand experience of the sort of meaningless discrimination that happens when you happen to be part of a different denomination of the same religion. Even when I knew from my own explorations and from conversations with my theologically educated (from a realistic standpoint, rather than a "bible is true because it's true" standpoint) mother that the Bible was a human work, and the New Testament was mostly a deification of Jesus and guidelines for a church.

Same thing happened to me.

couchsloth · 30th December 2010, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Oliver

None?

Quite frankly, that's not much evidence to begin with, is it?

I really don't understand what sort of point you are trying to make, other than just trying to be silly.

So many of us acted on irrational motivations when we were young... How very human of us!

HansMustermann · 30th December 2010, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

No, that's a good point. I guess I think of it as "faith" more than playing the odds because it's not just like I am betting these things won't happen because it's statistically more likely that they won't, I really truly BELIEVE they won't.

But I see your point, and I agree that it's not the same thing as religious faith. I still think that there's an element of faith involved in my beliefs regarding my marriage, and in many other things, even if not to the degree of religion.

Actually, I don't think that's as much even "faith" as extrapolation and some optimism. You know your husband exists, you know how your relationship has been going so far, there's nothing wrong with extrapolating from that very real data.

Sure, extrapolations can be wrong in the end. Quoth Mark Twain: "In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. That is an average of a trifle over one mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oolitic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi River was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing-rod. And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three-quarters long, and Cairo and New Orleans will have joined their streets together, and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact."

Still, extrapolating from what we have is the way we're built, and the normal modus operandi. And at any rate, learning from experience and real data isn't something I'd call "faith", religious or not. Especially not the religious kind that's based on _no_ data, or going against the real data.

Plus, I would guess it's not just passive "faith". You know how you've dealt with problems before, hence have reason to believe that at least some problems in the future can be fixed if they appear. You know there are people you can ask. Etc.

It's not even just on that topic. It's my general impression that most optimism isn't just of the passive hoping for the better part, or "faith", but really starting from the assumption that problems can be fixed when they start to appear.

Basically it seems to me like the same as why I'm optimistic that my car will continue to serve me well in 2012. I know the condition it's in. I know how I drive. I know the odds of having an accident. That's real data to extrapolate from. And most importantly, I know a good mechanic I can take it to, in case it does start having a problem.

It's nothing like any meaning of "faith".

28th December 2010, 05:41 AM	#1
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	So based on what evidence did you believe in the first place? None? . . . Quite frankly, that's not much evidence to begin with, is it?
	__________________

28th December 2010, 05:44 AM	#2
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,447	Believe what?
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

28th December 2010, 05:47 AM	#3
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,415	Originally Posted by Oliver None? . . . Quite frankly, that's not much evidence to begin with, is it? That's sufficiently inarticulate to provide evidence that you need MORE COFFEE.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

28th December 2010, 05:53 AM	#5
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Spindrift Believe what? Believe in an religious entity, god, prophet or some similar stupid topic based on non-existing evidence ...
	__________________

28th December 2010, 05:54 AM	#6
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Oliver None? . . . Quite frankly, that's not much evidence to begin with, is it? So based on what evidence do you believe there even is a "first place"? And you say "to begin with...", pardon me but were you even there at the beginning? There You Are You’re inside every kindness. When a sick person feels better, you’re that, and the onset of disease too. You’re sudden, terrible screaming. Some problems require we go for help: when we knock on a stranger’s door, you sent us. Nobody answers: it’s you! When work feels necessary, you are the way workers move in rhythm. You are what is: the field, the players, the ball, those watching. Someone claims to have evidence that you do not exist. You’re the one who brings the evidence in, and the evidence itself. You are inside the soul’s great fear, every natural pleasure, every vicious cruelty. You are in every difference and irritation. Someone loves something; someone else hates the same. There you are. Whatever eyes see, what anyone wants or not: political power, injustice, material possessions, those are your script, the handwriting we study. Body, soul, shadow. Whether reckless or careful, you are what we do. It’s absurd to ask your pardon. You’re inside repentance, and sin! The wonder of various jewels, agate, emerald. How we are during a day, then at night, you are those moods and qualities. The pure compassion we feel for each other. Every encampment has a tent where the leader is and also the wide truth of your imperial tent overall. -Rumi
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

28th December 2010, 05:50 AM	#4
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,522	Why, the nuns told me, of course. Catholic school was an interesting exercise in "inculcation" back in the 50s. We were thrust into daily mass, in Latin, without a clue as to what the Hell was going on. Stand, kneel, sit... repeat funny-sounding phrases... Only gradually were you clued in as to what was going on and then gradually introduced to religious concepts outside of mere ceremony. Never was exposed to anything else through my formative years....

28th December 2010, 05:56 AM	#7
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 7,192	Originally Posted by Oliver Believe in an religious entity, god, prophet or some similar stupid topic based on non-existing evidence ... I believed in a diety because adults told me a diety existed. In those days faith required no proof. I grew up and changed my mind.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

28th December 2010, 05:58 AM	#8
Spindrift Enturbulator Extraordinaire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 8,447	Originally Posted by Oliver Believe in an religious entity, god, prophet or some similar stupid topic based on non-existing evidence ... Not sure I ever really believed, but after years of parochial school I did go along with it for quite some time.
	__________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.

28th December 2010, 05:59 AM	#9
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,944	Beyond being told and conditioned in church from birth, the human need to see purpose in all things drove my belief. How strange, that the behavior which leads a monkey or ape to recognize a stone's ability to crush a nut, would lead to such overflow.
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,944

28th December 2010, 06:00 AM	#10
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 I believed in a diety because adults told me a diety existed. In those days faith required no proof. I grew up and changed my mind. Which obviously seems to affirm that you're an intelligent person. What about the rest?
	__________________

28th December 2010, 06:05 AM	#12
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur Beyond being told and conditioned in church from birth, the human need to see purpose in all things drove my belief. How strange, that the behavior which leads a monkey or ape to recognize a stone's ability to crush a nut, would lead to such overflow. Well, didn't you know that God created apes for the sole purpose of sending secret/hidden messages to those who do believe in everything that does not consider evidence?
	__________________

28th December 2010, 06:08 AM	#13
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,944	Hallelujah!
Halfcentaur Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 5,944

28th December 2010, 06:25 AM	#14
Oliver ~The Rascal~ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cologne Posts: 17,369	Originally Posted by Halfcentaur Hallelujah! Hallelujah based on what evidence?
	__________________

28th December 2010, 07:25 AM	#15
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,400	The question would be more coherent if directed at conversions, I think. "What evidence persuaded you to change your mind about your old faith."
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

28th December 2010, 09:40 AM	#16
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	I was indoctrinated as a child, Oliver, by people who said demanding proof of god is a sin. That's the way it happens for many, if not most, believers. Some later reconsider, when they're older, and are able to re-evaluate. Most don't, however. So the question is more properly "what evidence keeps you believing," rather than "what evidence prompted you to believe." In a broad sense, children don't really need evidence. That comes later. Maybe you never heard the children's song "Jesus loves me," but in it is all the rationale the average child would need: "The bible tells me so." It would be a rare child who recognized that as begging the question, especially without first being taught how.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

28th December 2010, 09:43 AM	#17
TubbaBlubba Knave of the Dudes Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Communist Kingdom of Sweden Posts: 7,408	Self-delusion and authority, but I never had a very strong belief in the first place. It was a brief period around age 8-9 before I thought "this is all stupid".
	__________________ Disagreement begets progress.

29th December 2010, 09:54 AM	#18
George II Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Sweden Posts: 311	No evidence at all really. I beleived because I figured my parents wanted me to. Also, I somehow got the idea that if I didn't beleive, Jehovah would be angry and kill me, and I wouldn't be able to live in paradise. Seemed convincing enough to me when I was a kid. My tiny amount of studying what the Bible really said were only attempts to rationalize my belief, to be honest. But I have feeling that's not quite so uncommon...

29th December 2010, 10:35 AM	#19
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499	Evidence? Since when is that a necessity for indoctrination? I'm going to refer to Alanis Morisette's "Forgiven" for my answer.... You know how us Catholic girls can be We make up for so much time a little too late I never forgot it, confusing as it was No fun with no guilt feelings The sinners, the saviors, the loverless priests I'll see you next Sunday We all had our reasons to be there We all had a thing or two to learn We all needed something to cling to So we did I sang alleluia in the choir Ale alleluia, luia, luia I confessed my darkest deeds to an envious man My brothers they never went blind for what they did But I may as well have In the name of the father, the skeptic and the son I had one more stupid question We all had our reasons to be there We all had a thing or two to learn We all need something to cling to So we did What I learned I rejected but I believe again I will suffer the consequence of this inquisition If I jump in this fountain, will I be forgiven? We all had our reasons to be there We all had a thing or two to learn We all needed something to cling to So we did But aside from that, I know there are people like edge and 154 who are constantly trying to prove there is "evidence" for their faith, but for a lot of people, faith is about, well, faith. It's not about needing proof. Though no longer Catholic or even Christian, I do still have some religious beliefs. I recognize there's no real evidence for them, that it's all based on emotions and feelings (and therefor, they may very well not be true at all). I know the difference between beliefs and factual knowledge, and I'm comfortable with that. It's not like religion is the only thing this applies to. I married my husband on faith that he would remain the kind of man I love, and that he won't leave me for a 20 year old when he has a midlife crisis, that he'll remain in love with me, and several other factors. I don't really have any evidence that these things are true, but I have enough faith in him that I married him anyways, even though we can never know with certainty what our future will bring.
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499	Last edited by Schrodinger's Cat; 29th December 2010 at 10:48 AM.

29th December 2010, 12:06 PM	#20
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,833	Well, it's not just that adults told me, but you have to put it into context. I was at an age where Santa was real, the Easter Bunny was real, etc. They could have told me not just that Jesus is real, but at that the FSM and IPU too. Plus, at that age things were a bit less miraculous. I mean, Tom and Jerry hit each other with lead pipes, and got rolled over by steamrollers, and then popped right back. For all I knew, coming right back to life was just the normal thing that happened to everyone. That Jesus would come back after two days raised the only question: what took him so long? Or for all I knew, children were brought by the stork. Exactly why couldn't a virgin get a baby delivered by the stork, even if by mistake, or why would someone make such a big deal out of that, wasn't clear at all to me. (ETA: and for that matter, WTH is a virgin, anyway?) Common sense would say that if it works anything like the post office, there must be thousands of babies delivered to the wrong people, and for all I knew, people probably mailed them back or something.
	Last edited by HansMustermann; 29th December 2010 at 12:13 PM.

29th December 2010, 12:23 PM	#21
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat It's not like religion is the only thing this applies to. I married my husband on faith that he would remain the kind of man I love, and that he won't leave me for a 20 year old when he has a midlife crisis, that he'll remain in love with me, and several other factors. I don't really have any evidence that these things are true, but I have enough faith in him that I married him anyways, even though we can never know with certainty what our future will bring. Ya, except that's not faith to my mind, that's intelligently playing the odds. We have oddles of evidence that people don't capriciously change their spots (short of brain damage or such), we have evidence that well matched people enjoy that match up, we have evidence that single people don't live as long, etc. I don't mean to play dictionary wars, but I have a lot of trouble equating that kind of 'faith' with religious faith, which is extolled as belief in something absent all of that evidence. Unless you married him 5 minutes after meeting him at a strip bar in Vegas or something, in which case I'd say faith is a wondrous thing! Not that I have a problem with people that decide a deist sort of God makes the most sense to them. I've decided the many-worlds interpretation of QM is very likely false, absent any real evidence. It's the stronger claims that bother me, and the acts (not taking your kid to the doctor, say, because 'God will provide') that bother me yet more.
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir

29th December 2010, 12:26 PM	#22
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Oh, and to answer the OP, I believed because that was what mommy told me was true, and I stopped believing not much past the time I stopped calling her mommy, and started noticing the wide gaps between her explanation of the world and how it actually appeared to work.
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir

29th December 2010, 12:31 PM	#23
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499	Originally Posted by roger Ya, except that's not faith to my mind, that's intelligently playing the odds. We have oddles of evidence that people don't capriciously change their spots (short of brain damage or such), we have evidence that well matched people enjoy that match up, we have evidence that single people don't live as long, etc. I don't mean to play dictionary wars, but I have a lot of trouble equating that kind of 'faith' with religious faith, which is extolled as belief in something absent all of that evidence. Unless you married him 5 minutes after meeting him at a strip bar in Vegas or something, in which case I'd say faith is a wondrous thing! Not that I have a problem with people that decide a deist sort of God makes the most sense to them. I've decided the many-worlds interpretation of QM is very likely false, absent any real evidence. It's the stronger claims that bother me, and the acts (not taking your kid to the doctor, say, because 'God will provide') that bother me yet more. No, that's a good point. I guess I think of it as "faith" more than playing the odds because it's not just like I am betting these things won't happen because it's statistically more likely that they won't, I really truly BELIEVE they won't. But I see your point, and I agree that it's not the same thing as religious faith. I still think that there's an element of faith involved in my beliefs regarding my marriage, and in many other things, even if not to the degree of religion.
Schrodinger's Cat Guest Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 3,499

29th December 2010, 12:58 PM	#24
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat But I see your point, and I agree that it's not the same thing as religious faith. I still think that there's an element of faith involved in my beliefs regarding my marriage, and in many other things, even if not to the degree of religion. I grant you that, and often get a bit frustrated with how believers get treated or discussed on the forum. I mean, most people don't strive to get a philosophy degree and don't think about things like this deeply - they are just trying to get through the day consistent with their society's built in mores. My mother believed - she was not an idiot, IMO, just mistaken in her assessment of evidence.
	__________________ May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy, while cares will drop off like autumn leaves. - John Muir

29th December 2010, 01:29 PM	#25
X Slide Rulez 4 Life Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Launching the army, waiting for Hok to commit her forces (then the moles strike...) Posts: 4,082	I was brought to church as a child by my parents. From birth, onwards. I believed, because I thought it was a given. Everyone I knew went to church (albeit a different church, as I went to a Roman Catholic school and a United Church). It was a bit of a shock to me when I went to a public high school and met people who didn't go to church. Was there ever a reason? No. It was, from infancy on, an unspoken assumption that a God existed. An assumption haled by everyone I knew. One reinforced continuously and uncritically by songs for kids and classroom discussion. So as far as I knew, there was no reason not to believe. Even when I had serious questions. Even when I had first-hand experience of the sort of meaningless discrimination that happens when you happen to be part of a different denomination of the same religion. Even when I knew from my own explorations and from conversations with my theologically educated (from a realistic standpoint, rather than a "bible is true because it's true" standpoint) mother that the Bible was a human work, and the New Testament was mostly a deification of Jesus and guidelines for a church.
	__________________ It is sad that this is necessary: Argumentum Ad Hominem: "You are wrong because you are ugly." Not Ad-Hom: "You are wrong and you are ugly." [X's posts are] ...as good as having 24 hours of Justin Bieber piped into your ears! - kmortis

29th December 2010, 07:39 PM	#26
Oubliette insert clever/stupid/sarcastic title here Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Anywhere Posts: 239	Originally Posted by X I was brought to church as a child by my parents. From birth, onwards. I believed, because I thought it was a given. Everyone I knew went to church (albeit a different church, as I went to a Roman Catholic school and a United Church). It was a bit of a shock to me when I went to a public high school and met people who didn't go to church. Was there ever a reason? No. It was, from infancy on, an unspoken assumption that a God existed. An assumption haled by everyone I knew. One reinforced continuously and uncritically by songs for kids and classroom discussion. So as far as I knew, there was no reason not to believe. Even when I had serious questions. Even when I had first-hand experience of the sort of meaningless discrimination that happens when you happen to be part of a different denomination of the same religion. Even when I knew from my own explorations and from conversations with my theologically educated (from a realistic standpoint, rather than a "bible is true because it's true" standpoint) mother that the Bible was a human work, and the New Testament was mostly a deification of Jesus and guidelines for a church. Same thing happened to me.

30th December 2010, 03:15 AM	#27
couchsloth New Blood Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 6	Originally Posted by Oliver None? Quite frankly, that's not much evidence to begin with, is it? I really don't understand what sort of point you are trying to make, other than just trying to be silly. So many of us acted on irrational motivations when we were young... How very human of us!
couchsloth New Blood Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 6

30th December 2010, 04:15 AM	#28
HansMustermann Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 9,833	Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat No, that's a good point. I guess I think of it as "faith" more than playing the odds because it's not just like I am betting these things won't happen because it's statistically more likely that they won't, I really truly BELIEVE they won't. But I see your point, and I agree that it's not the same thing as religious faith. I still think that there's an element of faith involved in my beliefs regarding my marriage, and in many other things, even if not to the degree of religion. Actually, I don't think that's as much even "faith" as extrapolation and some optimism. You know your husband exists, you know how your relationship has been going so far, there's nothing wrong with extrapolating from that very real data. Sure, extrapolations can be wrong in the end. Quoth Mark Twain: "In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. That is an average of a trifle over one mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oolitic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi River was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing-rod. And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three-quarters long, and Cairo and New Orleans will have joined their streets together, and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact." Still, extrapolating from what we have is the way we're built, and the normal modus operandi. And at any rate, learning from experience and real data isn't something I'd call "faith", religious or not. Especially not the religious kind that's based on _no_ data, or going against the real data. Plus, I would guess it's not just passive "faith". You know how you've dealt with problems before, hence have reason to believe that at least some problems in the future can be fixed if they appear. You know there are people you can ask. Etc. It's not even just on that topic. It's my general impression that most optimism isn't just of the passive hoping for the better part, or "faith", but really starting from the assumption that problems can be fixed when they start to appear. Basically it seems to me like the same as why I'm optimistic that my car will continue to serve me well in 2012. I know the condition it's in. I know how I drive. I know the odds of having an accident. That's real data to extrapolate from. And most importantly, I know a good mechanic I can take it to, in case it does start having a problem. It's nothing like any meaning of "faith".