Chaos Magic

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 04:46 AM

Some of the conversations I've seen recently are boiling down to the point where a skeptic might realize that its his or her own personal responsibility to, as Sam Harris called it, "build your own telescope". That is to say, evaluate mystical claims by becoming a mystic yourself. Of course Sam Harris would use other terms that are sanitized for 'rational folk', such as contemplative. But me, I am not so kind.

So lets say you are a card-carrying skeptic and you want to do a little mystical investigation of your own, that is to say build your own telescope and see what you can see. Where do you start? Well, you could do as Sam seems to be doing and go the meditation route. But most of us Westerners have a hard time with meditation, and most who try it give it up before achieving mystical altered states of consciousness.

So what other choice does that leave for the intrepid skeptic? Whatever contemplative tradition an intepid skeptic chooses must include a method of gaining altered states of consciousness. That is a universal common denominator in mystical traditions. That is to say, its part of every telescope. Sam Harris has chosen meditation to build his telescope with. But for those of us without the temperament or the time to devote to learning and practicing meditation, there is quicker choice. Chaos magic.

The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic.

So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect.

Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits.

It might take a while to get the hang acheiving gnosis but eventually the unconscious mind of the skeptic, in accordance with the intent of the sigil, would begin to provide the conscious mind with psychic experiences. Then what our intrepid skeptic has done in essence is cast a spell. Paradigm manipulation, sigils, and gnosis. Oh my!

dafydd · 29th December 2010, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Some of the conversations I've seen recently are boiling down to the point where a skeptic might realize that its his or her own personal responsibility to, as Sam Harris called it, "build your own telescope". That is to say, evaluate mystical claims by becoming a mystic yourself. Of course Sam Harris would use other terms that are sanitized for 'rational folk', such as contemplative. But me, I am not so kind.

So lets say you are a card-carrying skeptic and you want to do a little mystical investigation of your own, that is to say build your own telescope and see what you can see. Where do you start? Well, you could do as Sam seems to be doing and go the meditation route. But most of us Westerners have a hard time with meditation, and most who try it give it up before achieving mystical altered states of consciousness.

So what other choice does that leave for the intrepid skeptic? Whatever contemplative tradition an intepid skeptic chooses must include a method of gaining altered states of consciousness. That is a universal common denominator in mystical traditions. That is to say, its part of every telescope. Sam Harris has chosen meditation to build his telescope with. But for those of us without the temperament or the time to devote to learning and practicing meditation, there is quicker choice. Chaos magic.

The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic.

So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect.

Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits.

It might take a while to get the hang acheiving gnosis but eventually the unconscious mind of the skeptic, in accordance with the intent of the sigil, would begin to provide the conscious mind with psychic experiences. Then what our intrepid skeptic has done in essence is cast a spell. Paradigm manipulation, sigils, and gnosis. Oh my!

Keep taking the tablets.

Giggywig · 29th December 2010, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Some of the conversations I've seen recently are boiling down to the point where a skeptic might realize that its his or her own personal responsibility to, as Sam Harris called it, "build your own telescope". That is to say, evaluate mystical claims by becoming a mystic yourself. Of course Sam Harris would use other terms that are sanitized for 'rational folk', such as contemplative. But me, I am not so kind.

So lets say you are a card-carrying skeptic and you want to do a little mystical investigation of your own, that is to say build your own telescope and see what you can see. Where do you start? Well, you could do as Sam seems to be doing and go the meditation route. But most of us Westerners have a hard time with meditation, and most who try it give it up before achieving mystical altered states of consciousness.

So what other choice does that leave for the intrepid skeptic? Whatever contemplative tradition an intepid skeptic chooses must include a method of gaining altered states of consciousness. That is a universal common denominator in mystical traditions. That is to say, its part of every telescope. Sam Harris has chosen meditation to build his telescope with. But for those of us without the temperament or the time to devote to learning and practicing meditation, there is quicker choice. Chaos magic.

The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic.

So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect.

Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits.

It might take a while to get the hang acheiving gnosis but eventually the unconscious mind of the skeptic, in accordance with the intent of the sigil, would begin to provide the conscious mind with psychic experiences. Then what our intrepid skeptic has done in essence is cast a spell. Paradigm manipulation, sigils, and gnosis. Oh my!

I prefer the sexual orgasm route. I haven't achieved a psychic expereience yet but I'll keep trying! It's for science.

Aepervius · 29th December 2010, 05:40 AM

I up your chaos magic with a "circle of protection against chaos". I call it rationality.

Aepervius · 29th December 2010, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by Giggywig

I prefer the sexual orgasm route. I haven't achieved a psychic expereience yet but I'll keep trying! It's for science.

I take back what i said above, if it is for science, i will try your method. Do you have any video demonstration

?

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

I up your chaos magic with a "circle of protection agaisnt chaos". I call it rationality.

You spelled against wrong, and so your rationality is revealed for the sham it is. Zap!

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by Giggywig

I prefer the sexual orgasm route. I haven't achieved a psychic expereience yet but I'll keep trying! It's for science.

Have you shifted your paradigm and constructed a sigil?

Giggywig · 29th December 2010, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Have you shifted your paradigm and constructed a sigil?

I shift my paradigm several times during a session. I got this book from Amazon that shows several different paradigms to try. Me and my partner are not flexible enough for some, though.

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Giggywig

I shift my paradigm several times during a session. I got this book from Amazon that shows several different paradigms to try. Me and my partner are not flexible enough for some, though.

lol

Aepervius · 29th December 2010, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

You spelled against wrong, and so your rationality is revealed for the sham it is. Zap!

Equating rationality with spelling. An interesting take. I use a counter spell : spell checker and edit my post.

Bikewer · 29th December 2010, 05:53 AM

Some hurt, too...

Apparently, LSD works pretty well.

Gawdzilla · 29th December 2010, 06:08 AM

I blame this on the near impossibility of finding a nubile virgin to sacrifice. The sole remaining source, university Computer Science schools, has been over-hunted and is no longer viable. (And, of course, the Obama administration will not allow hunting in the still-fecund computer gaming areas. His opposition to hunting them in "mom's basement" is just another socialist apology and a sign that the Muslims are, indeed, winning this war. *pant, pant, pant*)

I need a lie down.

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Aepervius

Equating rationality with spelling. An interesting take. I use a counter spell : spell checker and edit my post.

No, I equated your spell with spelling.

D'rok · 29th December 2010, 06:18 AM

Would an altered state of consciousness give us any meaningful or reliable information about the external universe? If so, what sort of information, and how?

Myriad · 29th December 2010, 06:20 AM

I tried paradigm shifting, but all that happened was my core competency got leveraged outside the box to bring my value proposition to the table. Still, at the end of the day it is what it is so if we take this off-line we might still push the synergy envelope and reach the low-hanging fruit.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Lukraak_Sisser · 29th December 2010, 06:20 AM

I never know how to choose between Slaanesh and Tzeench when choosing chaos magic.

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

I tried paradigm shifting, but all that happened was my core competency got leveraged outside the box to bring my value proposition to the table. Still, at the end of the day it is what it is so if we take this off-line we might still push the synergy envelope and reach the low-hanging fruit.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Try it on ayahuasca.

Moss · 29th December 2010, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

I tried paradigm shifting, but all that happened was my core competency got leveraged outside the box to bring my value proposition to the table. Still, at the end of the day it is what it is so if we take this off-line we might still push the synergy envelope and reach the low-hanging fruit.

Respectfully,
Myriad

BINGO!

And it's all about Nurgle.

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

I never know how to choose between Slaanesh and Tzeench when choosing chaos magic.

Just remember, one does not drink the mud of the well. No animals come to an old well. And then...flip a coin.

Sideroxylon · 29th December 2010, 06:31 AM

Where can I get skeptic card from and can I have the British English spelling?

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Where can I get skeptic card from and can I have the British English spelling?

From the skeptic fairy, of course. Just leave your cynicism under your pillow.

Resume · 29th December 2010, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

From the skeptic fairy, of course. Just leave your cynicism under your pillow.

Right next to your rationality.

D'rok · 29th December 2010, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by D'rok

Would an altered state of consciousness give us any meaningful or reliable information about the external universe? If so, what sort of information, and how?

I take it this is a no?

Myriad · 29th December 2010, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic.

So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect.

Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits.

In other (and many fewer) words, you're advocating wishing, while stoned.

My own life experiences tell me that that does not work and will not work. Can you provide any rationale that make it reasonable to posit that it might work? For instance, even if I'd never seen a telescope in action and didn't know the complete design for a telescope, if I can see that lenses change the direction of light rays, it at least suggests the possibility that a telescope could work. What is the underlying basis for suggesting that wishing while stoned might do anything?

Respectfully,
Myriad

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

In other (and many fewer) words, you're advocating wishing, while stoned.

My own life experiences tell me that that does not work and will not work. Can you provide any rationale that make it reasonable to posit that it might work? For instance, even if I'd never seen a telescope in action and didn't know the complete design for a telescope, if I can see that lenses change the direction of light rays, it at least suggests the possibility that a telescope could work. What is the underlying basis for suggesting that wishing while stoned might do anything?

Respectfully,
Myriad

The underlying basis is that the nature of reality is or includes consciousness, not merely matter and energy and the 'illusion' of consciousness. Consciousness is primary and it transcends time and space, matter and energy, and it transcends individuality. All those emerge from consciousness. Its a transcendental or mental monism, as opposed to a physical or material monism.

devnull · 29th December 2010, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

I tried paradigm shifting, but all that happened was my core competency got leveraged outside the box to bring my value proposition to the table. Still, at the end of the day it is what it is so if we take this off-line we might still push the synergy envelope and reach the low-hanging fruit.

Respectfully,
Myriad

Boss? Is that you?

devnull · 29th December 2010, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

The underlying basis is that the nature of reality is or includes consciousness, not merely matter and energy. Consciousness transcends time and space, matter and energy, and it transcends individuality. Its a transcendental or mental monism, as opposed to a physical or material monism.

No.

D'rok · 29th December 2010, 07:27 AM

Time and space, matter and energy emerge from consciousness?

Good grief. How did the universe manage to exist before humans became aware of it?

Sideroxylon · 29th December 2010, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by D'rok

Would an altered state of consciousness give us any meaningful or reliable information about the external universe? If so, what sort of information, and how?

Got an answer?

D'rok · 29th December 2010, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Got an answer?

Are you asking me or Limbo?

Sideroxylon · 29th December 2010, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by D'rok

Are you asking me or Limbo?

Limbo, mate. I was wondering if you might have been on ignore.

D'rok · 29th December 2010, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Limbo, mate. I was wondering if you might have been on ignore.

Roger that. Carry on.

dafydd · 29th December 2010, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by D'rok

Time and space, matter and energy emerge from consciousness?

Good grief. How did the universe manage to exist before humans became aware of it?

The same point had occurred to me. Expect more gobbledygook for an answer.

Hellbound · 29th December 2010, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by dafydd

The same point had occurred to me. Expect more gobbledygook for an answer.

It didn't. I suspect you'll get some variation of "Last Thursdayism" for an answer.

Dancing David · 29th December 2010, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

Some of the conversations I've seen recently are boiling down to the point where a skeptic might realize that its his or her own personal responsibility to, as Sam Harris called it, "build your own telescope". That is to say, evaluate mystical claims by becoming a mystic yourself. Of course Sam Harris would use other terms that are sanitized for 'rational folk', such as contemplative. But me, I am not so kind.

So lets say you are a card-carrying skeptic and you want to do a little mystical investigation of your own, that is to say build your own telescope and see what you can see. Where do you start? Well, you could do as Sam seems to be doing and go the meditation route. But most of us Westerners have a hard time with meditation, and most who try it give it up before achieving mystical altered states of consciousness.

So what other choice does that leave for the intrepid skeptic? Whatever contemplative tradition an intepid skeptic chooses must include a method of gaining altered states of consciousness. That is a universal common denominator in mystical traditions. That is to say, its part of every telescope. Sam Harris has chosen meditation to build his telescope with. But for those of us without the temperament or the time to devote to learning and practicing meditation, there is quicker choice. Chaos magic.

The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic.

So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect.

Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits.

It might take a while to get the hang acheiving gnosis but eventually the unconscious mind of the skeptic, in accordance with the intent of the sigil, would begin to provide the conscious mind with psychic experiences. Then what our intrepid skeptic has done in essence is cast a spell. Paradigm manipulation, sigils, and gnosis. Oh my!

Um dude, sorry, I already have investigated for many many years, started in 1979 and have practiced cermonial magic, wicca and shamanism.

There are no paranormal powers, the only thing that there is is a human brain, all gods, devi, spirits, powers, reside there and only there. The brain is the center of perception, one can change the parameters of that perception to some degree. But one can not influence teh area outside of the brain.

To quote a story of Uncle Al:

There was a student who sat by the river and days became, months, months became years, everyday they focused their mind on teh water, and the river. And one day after many long years they attained the state of being able to walk on the water and they crossed the river.

The student then went to thei Master and explained that after many years of practice they had walked across the river.

Master: You do know people take the ferry everyday?

The point being, influence yourself and use the tools that exist. Do not pray for strength, develop strength.

PixyMisa · 29th December 2010, 08:41 AM

Limbo, the moment anyone, anywhere, provides any evidence at all that any of what you're saying does anything, we'll start paying attention.

Until that day, pfft.

Limbo · 29th December 2010, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by D'rok

Time and space, matter and energy emerge from consciousness?

Good grief. How did the universe manage to exist before humans became aware of it?

There is more to consciousness than conscious awareness.

Katopale · 29th December 2010, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

The underlying basis is that the nature of reality is or includes consciousness, not merely matter and energy and the 'illusion' of consciousness. Consciousness is primary and it transcends time and space, matter and energy, and it transcends individuality. All those emerge from consciousness. Its a transcendental or mental monism, as opposed to a physical or material monism.

Are there limits to Chaos Magic?
Could an accomplished Chaos Magician fly or regrow an amputated limb?

If there are limits, what causes those limits?

Dancing David · 29th December 2010, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

The underlying basis is that the nature of reality is or includes consciousness, not merely matter and energy and the 'illusion' of consciousness. Consciousness is primary and it transcends time and space, matter and energy, and it transcends individuality. All those emerge from consciousness. Its a transcendental or mental monism, as opposed to a physical or material monism.

Un supported assertion.

Ontology is pointless you can not tell if it is lifeless energy particles, godthought, butterfly dreams or brains in vats.

It is all the same, there is NO difference.

Dancing David · 29th December 2010, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Limbo

From the skeptic fairy, of course. Just leave your cynicism under your pillow.

Your teachers have misled you, you need to find better ones.

29th December 2010, 04:46 AM	#1
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Chaos Magic Some of the conversations I've seen recently are boiling down to the point where a skeptic might realize that its his or her own personal responsibility to, as Sam Harris called it, "build your own telescope". That is to say, evaluate mystical claims by becoming a mystic yourself. Of course Sam Harris would use other terms that are sanitized for 'rational folk', such as contemplative. But me, I am not so kind. So lets say you are a card-carrying skeptic and you want to do a little mystical investigation of your own, that is to say build your own telescope and see what you can see. Where do you start? Well, you could do as Sam seems to be doing and go the meditation route. But most of us Westerners have a hard time with meditation, and most who try it give it up before achieving mystical altered states of consciousness. So what other choice does that leave for the intrepid skeptic? Whatever contemplative tradition an intepid skeptic chooses must include a method of gaining altered states of consciousness. That is a universal common denominator in mystical traditions. That is to say, its part of every telescope. Sam Harris has chosen meditation to build his telescope with. But for those of us without the temperament or the time to devote to learning and practicing meditation, there is quicker choice. Chaos magic. The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic. So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect. Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits. It might take a while to get the hang acheiving gnosis but eventually the unconscious mind of the skeptic, in accordance with the intent of the sigil, would begin to provide the conscious mind with psychic experiences. Then what our intrepid skeptic has done in essence is cast a spell. Paradigm manipulation, sigils, and gnosis. Oh my!
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." Last edited by Limbo; 29th December 2010 at 05:27 AM.

29th December 2010, 05:40 AM	#4
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,735	I up your chaos magic with a "circle of protection against chaos". I call it rationality.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life. Last edited by Aepervius; 29th December 2010 at 05:50 AM.

29th December 2010, 05:41 AM	#5
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,735	Originally Posted by Giggywig I prefer the sexual orgasm route. I haven't achieved a psychic expereience yet but I'll keep trying! It's for science. I take back what i said above, if it is for science, i will try your method. Do you have any video demonstration ?
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

29th December 2010, 05:42 AM	#6
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Aepervius I up your chaos magic with a "circle of protection agaisnt chaos". I call it rationality. You spelled against wrong, and so your rationality is revealed for the sham it is. Zap!
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

29th December 2010, 05:43 AM	#7
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Giggywig I prefer the sexual orgasm route. I haven't achieved a psychic expereience yet but I'll keep trying! It's for science. Have you shifted your paradigm and constructed a sigil?
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

29th December 2010, 05:33 AM	#2
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,443	Originally Posted by Limbo Some of the conversations I've seen recently are boiling down to the point where a skeptic might realize that its his or her own personal responsibility to, as Sam Harris called it, "build your own telescope". That is to say, evaluate mystical claims by becoming a mystic yourself. Of course Sam Harris would use other terms that are sanitized for 'rational folk', such as contemplative. But me, I am not so kind. So lets say you are a card-carrying skeptic and you want to do a little mystical investigation of your own, that is to say build your own telescope and see what you can see. Where do you start? Well, you could do as Sam seems to be doing and go the meditation route. But most of us Westerners have a hard time with meditation, and most who try it give it up before achieving mystical altered states of consciousness. So what other choice does that leave for the intrepid skeptic? Whatever contemplative tradition an intepid skeptic chooses must include a method of gaining altered states of consciousness. That is a universal common denominator in mystical traditions. That is to say, its part of every telescope. Sam Harris has chosen meditation to build his telescope with. But for those of us without the temperament or the time to devote to learning and practicing meditation, there is quicker choice. Chaos magic. The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic. So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect. Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits. It might take a while to get the hang acheiving gnosis but eventually the unconscious mind of the skeptic, in accordance with the intent of the sigil, would begin to provide the conscious mind with psychic experiences. Then what our intrepid skeptic has done in essence is cast a spell. Paradigm manipulation, sigils, and gnosis. Oh my! Keep taking the tablets.

29th December 2010, 05:40 AM	#3
Giggywig Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,853	Originally Posted by Limbo Some of the conversations I've seen recently are boiling down to the point where a skeptic might realize that its his or her own personal responsibility to, as Sam Harris called it, "build your own telescope". That is to say, evaluate mystical claims by becoming a mystic yourself. Of course Sam Harris would use other terms that are sanitized for 'rational folk', such as contemplative. But me, I am not so kind. So lets say you are a card-carrying skeptic and you want to do a little mystical investigation of your own, that is to say build your own telescope and see what you can see. Where do you start? Well, you could do as Sam seems to be doing and go the meditation route. But most of us Westerners have a hard time with meditation, and most who try it give it up before achieving mystical altered states of consciousness. So what other choice does that leave for the intrepid skeptic? Whatever contemplative tradition an intepid skeptic chooses must include a method of gaining altered states of consciousness. That is a universal common denominator in mystical traditions. That is to say, its part of every telescope. Sam Harris has chosen meditation to build his telescope with. But for those of us without the temperament or the time to devote to learning and practicing meditation, there is quicker choice. Chaos magic. The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic. So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect. Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits. It might take a while to get the hang acheiving gnosis but eventually the unconscious mind of the skeptic, in accordance with the intent of the sigil, would begin to provide the conscious mind with psychic experiences. Then what our intrepid skeptic has done in essence is cast a spell. Paradigm manipulation, sigils, and gnosis. Oh my! I prefer the sexual orgasm route. I haven't achieved a psychic expereience yet but I'll keep trying! It's for science.

29th December 2010, 05:48 AM	#8
Giggywig Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,853	Originally Posted by Limbo Have you shifted your paradigm and constructed a sigil? I shift my paradigm several times during a session. I got this book from Amazon that shows several different paradigms to try. Me and my partner are not flexible enough for some, though.

29th December 2010, 05:48 AM	#9
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Giggywig I shift my paradigm several times during a session. I got this book from Amazon that shows several different paradigms to try. Me and my partner are not flexible enough for some, though. lol
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

29th December 2010, 05:51 AM	#10
Aepervius Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bierland. I mean , germany. Posts: 7,735	Originally Posted by Limbo You spelled against wrong, and so your rationality is revealed for the sham it is. Zap! Equating rationality with spelling. An interesting take. I use a counter spell : spell checker and edit my post.
	__________________ Omnes Blessant Ultima necat "I want, and this is my last and most dear wish, I want that the last of the king be strangled with the guts of the last priest" (Jean Meslier / 1664-1729 / Testament) A very early french atheist, a catholic priest in life.

29th December 2010, 05:53 AM	#11
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,519	Some hurt, too... Apparently, LSD works pretty well.

29th December 2010, 06:08 AM	#12
Gawdzilla 121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northern St. Louis County, Missouri. Posts: 13,358	I blame this on the near impossibility of finding a nubile virgin to sacrifice. The sole remaining source, university Computer Science schools, has been over-hunted and is no longer viable. (And, of course, the Obama administration will not allow hunting in the still-fecund computer gaming areas. His opposition to hunting them in "mom's basement" is just another socialist apology and a sign that the Muslims are, indeed, winning this war. pant, pant, pant) I need a lie down.
	__________________ World War II Diplomatic and Political Resources Hyperwar, WWII Military History Kido Butai did not transmit. 木戸舞台は、無線メッセージを送信しませんでした

29th December 2010, 06:15 AM	#13
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Aepervius Equating rationality with spelling. An interesting take. I use a counter spell : spell checker and edit my post. No, I equated your spell with spelling.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

29th December 2010, 06:18 AM	#14
D'rok Free Barbarian on The Land Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 6,233	Would an altered state of consciousness give us any meaningful or reliable information about the external universe? If so, what sort of information, and how?
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

29th December 2010, 06:20 AM	#15
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,195	I tried paradigm shifting, but all that happened was my core competency got leveraged outside the box to bring my value proposition to the table. Still, at the end of the day it is what it is so if we take this off-line we might still push the synergy envelope and reach the low-hanging fruit. Respectfully, Myriad
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

29th December 2010, 06:20 AM	#16
Lukraak_Sisser Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,618	I never know how to choose between Slaanesh and Tzeench when choosing chaos magic.

29th December 2010, 06:22 AM	#17
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Myriad I tried paradigm shifting, but all that happened was my core competency got leveraged outside the box to bring my value proposition to the table. Still, at the end of the day it is what it is so if we take this off-line we might still push the synergy envelope and reach the low-hanging fruit. Respectfully, Myriad Try it on ayahuasca.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

29th December 2010, 06:24 AM	#18
Moss Dramatocrat Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Heiligsblechle country Posts: 3,229	Originally Posted by Myriad I tried paradigm shifting, but all that happened was my core competency got leveraged outside the box to bring my value proposition to the table. Still, at the end of the day it is what it is so if we take this off-line we might still push the synergy envelope and reach the low-hanging fruit. Respectfully, Myriad BINGO! And it's all about Nurgle.

29th December 2010, 06:24 AM	#19
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser I never know how to choose between Slaanesh and Tzeench when choosing chaos magic. Just remember, one does not drink the mud of the well. No animals come to an old well. And then...flip a coin.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."

29th December 2010, 06:31 AM	#20
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,602	Where can I get skeptic card from and can I have the British English spelling?
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

29th December 2010, 06:32 AM	#21
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Where can I get skeptic card from and can I have the British English spelling? From the skeptic fairy, of course. Just leave your cynicism under your pillow.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." Last edited by Limbo; 29th December 2010 at 06:35 AM.

29th December 2010, 06:41 AM	#22
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,014	Originally Posted by Limbo From the skeptic fairy, of course. Just leave your cynicism under your pillow. Right next to your rationality.
Resume Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 8,014

29th December 2010, 06:53 AM	#23
D'rok Free Barbarian on The Land Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 6,233	Originally Posted by D'rok Would an altered state of consciousness give us any meaningful or reliable information about the external universe? If so, what sort of information, and how? I take it this is a no?
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

29th December 2010, 07:09 AM	#24
Myriad Hyperthetical Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 8,195	Originally Posted by Limbo The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic. So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect. Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits. In other (and many fewer) words, you're advocating wishing, while stoned. My own life experiences tell me that that does not work and will not work. Can you provide any rationale that make it reasonable to posit that it might work? For instance, even if I'd never seen a telescope in action and didn't know the complete design for a telescope, if I can see that lenses change the direction of light rays, it at least suggests the possibility that a telescope could work. What is the underlying basis for suggesting that wishing while stoned might do anything? Respectfully, Myriad
	__________________ The cosmos is a vast Loom, with time the warp and space the weft. We are all fruit of the Loom, unaware.

29th December 2010, 07:15 AM	#25
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	Originally Posted by Myriad In other (and many fewer) words, you're advocating wishing, while stoned. My own life experiences tell me that that does not work and will not work. Can you provide any rationale that make it reasonable to posit that it might work? For instance, even if I'd never seen a telescope in action and didn't know the complete design for a telescope, if I can see that lenses change the direction of light rays, it at least suggests the possibility that a telescope could work. What is the underlying basis for suggesting that wishing while stoned might do anything? Respectfully, Myriad The underlying basis is that the nature of reality is or includes consciousness, not merely matter and energy and the 'illusion' of consciousness. Consciousness is primary and it transcends time and space, matter and energy, and it transcends individuality. All those emerge from consciousness. Its a transcendental or mental monism, as opposed to a physical or material monism.
Limbo Jedi Consular Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 3,000	__________________ "Faith in what?" he asked himself, adrift in limbo. "Faith in faith," he replied. "It isn't necessary to have something to believe in. It's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief." Last edited by Limbo; 29th December 2010 at 07:23 AM.

29th December 2010, 07:16 AM	#26
devnull Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,532	Originally Posted by Myriad I tried paradigm shifting, but all that happened was my core competency got leveraged outside the box to bring my value proposition to the table. Still, at the end of the day it is what it is so if we take this off-line we might still push the synergy envelope and reach the low-hanging fruit. Respectfully, Myriad Boss? Is that you?
	__________________ no, i don't think i need to read naturalistic literature more accurately, to be convinced its true. - Gibhor

29th December 2010, 07:20 AM	#27
devnull Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 4,532	Originally Posted by Limbo The underlying basis is that the nature of reality is or includes consciousness, not merely matter and energy. Consciousness transcends time and space, matter and energy, and it transcends individuality. Its a transcendental or mental monism, as opposed to a physical or material monism. No.
	__________________ no, i don't think i need to read naturalistic literature more accurately, to be convinced its true. - Gibhor

29th December 2010, 07:27 AM	#28
D'rok Free Barbarian on The Land Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 6,233	Time and space, matter and energy emerge from consciousness? Good grief. How did the universe manage to exist before humans became aware of it?
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

29th December 2010, 07:31 AM	#29
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,602	Originally Posted by D'rok Would an altered state of consciousness give us any meaningful or reliable information about the external universe? If so, what sort of information, and how? Got an answer?
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

29th December 2010, 08:03 AM	#30
D'rok Free Barbarian on The Land Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 6,233	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Got an answer? Are you asking me or Limbo?
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

29th December 2010, 08:09 AM	#31
Sideroxylon Gavagai! Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Turkey Posts: 10,602	Originally Posted by D'rok Are you asking me or Limbo? Limbo, mate. I was wondering if you might have been on ignore.
	__________________ 'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

29th December 2010, 08:11 AM	#32
D'rok Free Barbarian on The Land Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 6,233	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Limbo, mate. I was wondering if you might have been on ignore. Roger that. Carry on.
	__________________ "War exists within the continuum of politics, in which play is continuous, and no outcome is final, save for a global thermonuclear war, which might be." - Darth Rotor "Life, like a Saturday afternoon, finds its ruination in purpose." - MdC

29th December 2010, 08:36 AM	#33
dafydd Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Belgium (Flatland) Posts: 31,443	Originally Posted by D'rok Time and space, matter and energy emerge from consciousness? Good grief. How did the universe manage to exist before humans became aware of it? The same point had occurred to me. Expect more gobbledygook for an answer.

29th December 2010, 08:41 AM	#34
Hellbound Abiogenic Spongiform Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a handbasket Posts: 8,911	Originally Posted by dafydd The same point had occurred to me. Expect more gobbledygook for an answer. It didn't. I suspect you'll get some variation of "Last Thursdayism" for an answer.

29th December 2010, 08:41 AM	#35
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,699	Originally Posted by Limbo Some of the conversations I've seen recently are boiling down to the point where a skeptic might realize that its his or her own personal responsibility to, as Sam Harris called it, "build your own telescope". That is to say, evaluate mystical claims by becoming a mystic yourself. Of course Sam Harris would use other terms that are sanitized for 'rational folk', such as contemplative. But me, I am not so kind. So lets say you are a card-carrying skeptic and you want to do a little mystical investigation of your own, that is to say build your own telescope and see what you can see. Where do you start? Well, you could do as Sam seems to be doing and go the meditation route. But most of us Westerners have a hard time with meditation, and most who try it give it up before achieving mystical altered states of consciousness. So what other choice does that leave for the intrepid skeptic? Whatever contemplative tradition an intepid skeptic chooses must include a method of gaining altered states of consciousness. That is a universal common denominator in mystical traditions. That is to say, its part of every telescope. Sam Harris has chosen meditation to build his telescope with. But for those of us without the temperament or the time to devote to learning and practicing meditation, there is quicker choice. Chaos magic. The idea behind Chaos magic is simple. Everything is permitted, everything is true. A chaos magician uses the power of paradigm shifting, in conjunction with altered states of consciousness, in order to elicit psychic functioning for a purpose. That, in essence, is magic. So an intrepid skeptic who wants to test chaoes magic would start with a little reading about the principles of Chaos magic. Then, he or she selects a method of achieving gnosis. Gnosis is the Chaos magic term for altered state of consciousness. There are several methods to choose from, and its a very personal choice. Self-hypnosis, sexual orgasm, frenzied dancing, entheogens, ect. Then he or she learns to contruct a sigil. A sigil is a personal symbol of intent, which the psychic energy of your gnosis is directed toward. Intent is a crucial ingredient. For instance, our intrepid skeptic has the intent to experience psychic ability. So he or she first constructs a sigil that symbolizes that intent, then uses a method to achieve a temporary state of gnosis, and waits. It might take a while to get the hang acheiving gnosis but eventually the unconscious mind of the skeptic, in accordance with the intent of the sigil, would begin to provide the conscious mind with psychic experiences. Then what our intrepid skeptic has done in essence is cast a spell. Paradigm manipulation, sigils, and gnosis. Oh my! Um dude, sorry, I already have investigated for many many years, started in 1979 and have practiced cermonial magic, wicca and shamanism. There are no paranormal powers, the only thing that there is is a human brain, all gods, devi, spirits, powers, reside there and only there. The brain is the center of perception, one can change the parameters of that perception to some degree. But one can not influence teh area outside of the brain. To quote a story of Uncle Al: There was a student who sat by the river and days became, months, months became years, everyday they focused their mind on teh water, and the river. And one day after many long years they attained the state of being able to walk on the water and they crossed the river. The student then went to thei Master and explained that after many years of practice they had walked across the river. Master: You do know people take the ferry everyday? The point being, influence yourself and use the tools that exist. Do not pray for strength, develop strength.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Last edited by Dancing David; 29th December 2010 at 08:42 AM.