John Edward - psychic or what?

[Robin]

Seems to me that even if you were standing right behind someone and looking down the sight line of their arm specifically trying to identify something that someone is pointing to about sixty feet away then it would be difficult

From RemieV's stated vantage point it would seem well nigh impossible.

Please let me know what my mentally immature mind is missing.

[RemieV]

Right - there are several things to be said for this...

The table I was sitting at was perpendicular to the stage - not facing it. I didn't have to turn around. I had to look left. Additionally, the seating (while also tiered in pricing) was also actually tiered, such that the lowest level is below stage level, the second (in which I was sitting) was about even, and the third (where Liam was sitting) was highest. So, yes, you could tell with some certainty which table was being pointed at. Additionally, the tables were staggered so that one was not right in front of another.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by RemieV

Right - there are several things to be said for this...

The table I was sitting at was perpendicular to the stage - not facing it. I didn't have to turn around.

Here is what I was reading:

Originally Posted by RemieV

I could see him from where I was sitting if I turned around.

So did you have to turn around or didn't you?

[Robin]

And did Edwards identify the actual name "Liam" before the person on the table said it?

That would probably seal it.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by Robin

Here is what I was reading:


So did you have to turn around or didn't you?

*sigh* You don't have to dissect what I'm saying as though I'm attempting to deceive you. I had to look to my left. 'Around' was just simpler to say without a heavy description of the seating chart.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by RemieV

*sigh* You don't have to dissect what I'm saying as though I'm attempting to deceive you.

I am merely pointing out that what I said was based on what you said.

I was not misrepresenting the situation as you seemed to imply.

In any case I am not dissecting it as though you were attempting to deceive, I am dissecting it as though you might have been mistaken, a possibility that you seem to rule out.

Quote:

I had to look to my left. 'Around' was just simpler to say without a heavy description of the seating chart.

But you didn't interpret my use of the same wording the same way.

The point is that you looked at Edwards then you turned your head and looked at Liam - yes?

Now I know that if I stand on the rear deck of my house and point at a tree about sixty feet away then it will take someone standing very close to me quite a long time to identify the tree I am talking about - and they can mistake the direction as well as the elevation. Sometimes I will have to help out by saying - "start at the Japanese Elm and start looking left" or something like that.

So from the description you give of your vantage point and the situation I cannot rule out that you may have been mistaken.

[Robin]

I keep calling him John Edwards. I am not sure which one I am insulting.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by RemieV

*sigh* You don't have to dissect what I'm saying as though I'm attempting to deceive you. I had to look to my left. 'Around' was just simpler to say without a heavy description of the seating chart.

So now you're changing your story. What are you trying to hide? I want answers!!!

[Robert Oz]

Originally Posted by Robin

And did Edwards identify the actual name "Liam" before the person on the table said it?

That would probably seal it.

Originally Posted by RemieV

He pointed toward the table behind me, where Liam was sitting, and said that he was getting the name 'Joshua'. I am again using a fake name of the same level of popularity. And I don't mean that he said he was getting a 'j' or the name 'Josh' or the feeling of a male presence. I mean that John Edward pointed at the table where Liam was sitting and said he was getting the name Joshua.

So Liam stood up. One of the ushers brought him a microphone so that he could communicate with Edward. Edward again said that he had gotten the name 'Joshua', and then said that there was something weird about it, because he had the sensation that the name was LIAM's. Then Edward paused for a moment. Liam had not said anything at this time. Edward said that, though Liam's name was Joshua, he had not introduced himself that way to the rest of his table. Edward then asked Joshua to hand the microphone over to someone else at the table, and then asked that person what Joshua had introduced himself as. The person said, "Liam."

Edward then asked Joshua to take out his driver's license and show it to everyone else at the table. The driver's license said that his name was Joshua Liam Smith.

This was definitely a hot read. Edward used the name Joshua, then said there was something wrong with the name Joshua and was instead getting Liam and then asked for his driver's license.

No cold reader in his right mind would immediately give two names and then ask to see ID for proof.

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

This was definitely a hot read. Edward used the name Joshua, then said there was something wrong with the name Joshua and was instead getting Liam and then asked for his driver's license.

While I don't disagree that it was hot reading, the part of RemieV's post you quoted clearly states that the name "Liam" came from one of the people at Liam's table, not from Edward.

[CurtC]

Originally Posted by Sledge

Maybe he just got lucky. Has to happen from time to time.

I skipped a few pages of this thread, but I want to point out that this seems unlikely. If you consider all the possible explanations, getting lucky is quite unlikely but still way more believable than actually using psychic powers.

But there are a hundred more likely explanations.

What about the fact that casinos know quite a bit about gamblers who play there? I realize that Liam wasn't staying at this hotel, but still if he had gambled there the casino could know a lot about him. And John Edward's staff would easily have access to this info.

[skip]

Originally Posted by CurtC

I skipped a few pages of this thread, but I want to point out that this seems unlikely. If you consider all the possible explanations, getting lucky is quite unlikely but still way more believable than actually using psychic powers.

.

I also skipped a few pages here so I don’t know if this has been put forth as an explanation. As a working magician I know firsthand that it is not uncommon that luck can lead you to some incredible effects.


Here is IMO, a Probable scenario…

One of Edwards’s people comes across this man days before the show, perhaps at a black jack table. Small talk ensues as it would at any gathering of strangers. Because he has an unusual name he is remembered, for no other reason than he has an odd name. The day of the show he is noticed standing in line to enter the show. This fact is mentioned at the preshow meeting.. ie. “ I met a guy the other day, he goes by the name Liam, but his first name is really Joshua. Why would anyone go by Liam when he could be Josh? Anyway he’s sitting right there.” It’s Game on. Since this part of the show is not something that is ordinarily done in the Edwards show it must be that it was just good luck. An observant subordinate combined with the happenstance of Liam attending the show make for a great hot read.

[Ersby]

What strikes me is that he asked someone else on the table how he introduced himself. This means JE knew or guessed that he wasn't friends with someone at the same table (although this may be reasonable - depends how many were at the table).

It's also not something I've heard about before, and I've read quite a lot of JE transcripts from TV and seminars. That bit does seem a bit showy. As if by getting someone else to make the reveal, he's increasing the impact.

[Nay_Sayer]

Quote:

1) Oliver said he was getting 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest', and felt that it was a hospital environment.

- My uncle was schizophrenic, and was, for some time, committed to a mental facility.
More often then not mental facilities are housed in hospital like enviroments.

2) Oliver said he was getting military service.

- My uncle was in the Navy.
Extremly vauge and assuming your uncle is a man of moderate age a safe bet, even if your uncle was'nt in the service you could easily say well his freind was etc.

3) Oliver said that he was getting military hospital, but not the same hospital as the One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest one.

- My uncle was born on a military base.
Same as above, seems like he was trying to establish the previous hospitial guess

4) Oliver said that he was getting the sensation of more than one person within this person, one arguing with another.

- My uncle was, again, schizophrenic.
Ever had a moral conflict? This discription again quite vauge
5) Oliver said that my uncle had tattoos.

- Unverifiable.1

6) Oliver said my uncle had gastrointestinal issues.

- Unverifiable.2

7) Oliver said that my uncle listened to the television very, very loudly.

- When my uncle lived alone in his apartment, the neighbours frequently called the police for noise disturbances based upon how loud his television and/or radio were.
So do I, and about 13 other people I know

8) Oliver said that he could see my uncle wandering away down a road with no clear idea where he was going.

- My uncle used to leave home and hitchhike without telling anyone.
Or it could of ment a decision he had yet to make, or he gets lost easily, etc, Another generality

9) Oliver said that my uncle is dead.

- Unverifiable.3

10) Oliver said that the body is in the woods.

- Unverifiable.4

11) Oliver said that my uncle shot himself.

- Unverifiable.5

Emphasis mine. Five Unverifiable claims, The rest mosty generalites that could be interpreted in various ways and one good guess.

[Robert Oz]

Originally Posted by Sceptic Tank

While I don't disagree that it was hot reading, the part of RemieV's post you quoted clearly states that the name "Liam" came from one of the people at Liam's table, not from Edward.

Oh! I see what you're saying. I may have misread the OP. When RemieV posted:

Originally Posted by RemieV

Edward again said that he had gotten the name 'Joshua', and then said that there was something weird about it, because he had the sensation that the name was LIAM's.

I thought Edward said, "I'm getting the name Joshua, but there is something weird about it, because I am actually feeling the name Liam", when in fact he said, "I'm getting the name Joshua, but there is something weird about it, because I am actually getting the feeling that it is your name".

I think you're right. The name Liam was mentioned by others at the table. But I still say the whole thing stinks to high heaven of a hot read. I don't think a cold reader would ask about the name Joshua and then limit himself by saying, "I think this is your name, show me your license."

[Robert Oz]

I'm at this table and I'm getting the name Joshua, but it's weird, because I'm getting the impression that this is, but sort of isn't, your name. Madam, how did this man introduce himself to you? Liam? Liam, please show your license to this lady. What does it say? Joshua Liam? There you go. This is your loved one's way of letting you know that they've come through today.

Definite hot read and sounds more like what you would see at a Derren Brown or Banachek show (except for the loved one coming through part). Cold reading sounds more like:

I'm at this table and I'm getting a J name: James, John, Joshua? Something with a J or G sound. Who is this? I feel there is a connection to the number three, this could be the third month or the third day of a month, and the letter L. What does the L mean?

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Originally Posted by RemieV

All that said - how do you think he did it?

I will clarify with more information if anyone has questions. As I said - I have the whole show recorded.

Someone may have suggested it (if so, apologies, I have not read the whole thread) but as he was in town for 3 days, he may well have surfed the net at his hotel (before the night of the show) and, being a fan, may post on John Edward's site or a fan site. He was excited that he was going to the show so may well have posted about it. If he had history on the site then the facts divulged may all have been available from there ('My name is Joshua Liam Smith but I go by Liam').

Obviously this is just one possibility but it doesn't seem particularly unlikely. People stuck in a hotel will tend to watch tv or surf.

[Azrael 5]

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

This was definitely a hot read. Edward used the name Joshua, then said there was something wrong with the name Joshua and was instead getting Liam and then asked for his driver's license.

No cold reader in his right mind would immediately give two names and then ask to see ID for proof.

Agreed. He wouldnt randomly assume someone had their drivers licence(or even had one).

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Azrael 5

Agreed. He wouldnt randomly assume someone had their drivers licence(or even had one).

Actually, of all the assumptions needed that particular one would seem the least risky to me. I don't know any male over the age of 18 who would not have a DL in their wallet on their person if out in public. Is this an American thing?

[Apology]

Do you remember for sure if Edwards said "Liam" first, or if someone at the table did, Remie? Could you check the tape?

Robin's style is pedantic and argumentative, but I think s/he makes some very good points. If Edwards pointed a little bit high and someone at a lower table was named "Joshua" then the person would have still stood up, and nobody would have been the wiser.

In addition, was the real name very formal, or very dorky? Something like "Nathaniel" or "Eugene" is almost guaranteed to be shortened to something less formal and/or less geeky. I don't know anyone who goes by Nathaniel or Eugene or even Joshua, but I know a few Nathans, Genes, and Joshes.

It's possible that one of the people in front of or behind you in the line was a plant. I don't think that they specifically knew that you were there; I don't think that this little show was for your benefit. I think that Edwards got lucky and either had the information before the show or managed to throw out a lucky guess that didn't look like a guess. If he wasn't guessing, then how he managed to get that information before the show remains a mystery.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

This was definitely a hot read. Edward used the name Joshua, then said there was something wrong with the name Joshua and was instead getting Liam and then asked for his driver's license.

No cold reader in his right mind would immediately give two names and then ask to see ID for proof.

I have said before that I think that it is probably a hot read.

But I was saying that a cold read was not entirely out of the question if he did not point at a specific table and if he did not give the name "Liam".

If he gave the name "Liam" as well as "Joshua" then it was definitely a hot read.

I think that this ambiguous in the OP which is the reason I asked for clarification.

Also, as I said before, even if he didn't point at a specific table and didn't give the name Liam the theatrical method of revealing the names seems to point at a hot read.

[Robin]

By the way, at this stage I have been told that I am incapable of understanding why I am absolutely nuts and that I have a low mental age.

Is it really me who is argumentative?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

So, was Liam cute? Did you get his phone number?

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

Actually, of all the assumptions needed that particular one would seem the least risky to me. I don't know any male over the age of 18 who would not have a DL in their wallet on their person if out in public. Is this an American thing?

Yes, last time I lived in the UK it was by no means uncertain that someone would have a drivers licence, a lot of people just never learned.

In Australia it is a pretty safe bet that someone has a drivers licence - it is pretty much a rite of passage. I gather the same goes in the USA.

He also assumed that Liam had introduced himself at the next table. I am not sure of the etiquette involved with Vegas dinner theatre. If I go to a normal theatre it is highly unlikely that I would introduce myself to the people around me, but it would probably be different if I was sitting at a table with them.

Still, it seems that this kind of theatrical gesture would fall pretty flat if he was wrong. It seems to me that if he was taking a long shot he would simply have asked Liam to confirm his feeling which would have made the segue to the excuse a lot smoother.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Robert Oz

I'm at this table and I'm getting the name Joshua, but it's weird, because I'm getting the impression that this is, but sort of isn't, your name. Madam, how did this man introduce himself to you? Liam? Liam, please show your license to this lady. What does it say? Joshua Liam? There you go. This is your loved one's way of letting you know that they've come through today.

Definite hot read and sounds more like what you would see at a Derren Brown or Banachek show (except for the loved one coming through part). Cold reading sounds more like:

I'm at this table and I'm getting a J name: James, John, Joshua? Something with a J or G sound. Who is this? I feel there is a connection to the number three, this could be the third month or the third day of a month, and the letter L. What does the L mean?

Except he wasn't at the table he was about sixty feet away from the table on the stage and pointing and the OP doesn't say "I am at this table" ie Edward himself does not indicate that he is referring to a specific table rather than a general direction.

RemieV believes he was pointing at a particular table but for the reasons I have already given I don't believe that she could accurately make that call from her vantage point about exactly where someone is pointing sixty feet away.

Edward's cold readings don't always sound like that. I have seen Edward getting multiple responses from a single letter on more than one occasion. If he was working something the size of, say, the Flamingo Showroom, then he could probably use a full name in the reasonable expectation of a hit.

So he points in a particular direction and says "I am getting the name Joshua" and someone stands up. He didn't identify the Joshua reference, the Joshua reference identified himself.

Now, with a name he has to make a guess about what is the connection between the standing man and the name.

So it is not out of the question that he might simply have made a guess - he guesses first "It's your name" and subsequently "Your name, but not the way you introduced yourself"

As I said before I have heard him taking long shots before and since the long shots missed I assuming they were cold readings.

I think it was a hot reading too, but I don't think this is completely certain.

[Tommytwonines]

Originally Posted by Robin

He also assumed that Liam had introduced himself at the next table. I am not sure of the etiquette involved with Vegas dinner theatre. If I go to a normal theatre it is highly unlikely that I would introduce myself to the people around me, but it would probably be different if I was sitting at a table with them.

Yes, the whole table set-up (versus regular stadium seating) lends itself to audience talking/mingling before the start of the show.

BTW, a lot of the JE naysayers on the Net suggest hidden microphones (at the tables, in the overhanging eaves of the queue line before the show) as a possibility.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by Tommytwonines

Yes, the whole table set-up (versus regular stadium seating) lends itself to audience talking/mingling before the start of the show.

BTW, a lot of the JE naysayers on the Net suggest hidden microphones (at the tables, in the overhanging eaves of the queue line before the show) as a possibility.

That should be part of the discussion as well.

The technology available for cheating in this manner would be irresistible it seems to me.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Like Pen Gillette once said when asked how the hell did Criss Angel do certain trick: "He didn´t do it the easy way"

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Like Pen Gillette once said when asked how the hell did Criss Angel do certain trick: "He didn´t do it the easy way"

There was actually a very well-circulated clip of Penn on a talk show telling the host that Criss Angel does 'I Dream of Jeannie' magic - meaning that his magic is simply camera tricks. Seems like the ultimate easy way.

For the hidden microphone people:

It is less likely that's how he's doing it at this particular location for a couple of reasons - the first being that the piece of information he provided about Liam doesn't work by microphone unless there is another element. Additionally, the Flamingo showroom isn't his theatre. Lots of different performers cycle through there every night, and he's only there perhaps ten nights a year. I felt around for microphones (just in case) all the times I attended. Perhaps it's poor luck and they're dodging me, but I found nothing.

[Tommytwonines]

Originally Posted by Apology

Do you remember for sure if Edwards said "Liam" first, or if someone at the table did, Remie? Could you check the tape?

Just to clarify, RemieV, what is the answer to this?

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by Tommytwonines

Just to clarify, RemieV, what is the answer to this?

I can't clarify it at the moment. My laptop (where the file is stored) took ill and is currently being repaired.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by RemieV

I felt around for microphones (just in case) all the times I attended. Perhaps it's poor luck and they're dodging me, but I found nothing.

Did you frisk your fellow guests?

[Tommytwonines]

Originally Posted by RemieV

I can't clarify it at the moment. My laptop (where the file is stored) took ill and is currently being repaired.

No worries - my hard drive went nutty last week. Ugh.

[ynot]

Seems like some others I have misread the OP. Edward never came up with the name “Liam” a person at the table did. This changes the scenario quite a bit . . .

(1) Edward points to an area of the audience and says he is getting the name “Joshua” (a common name).
Whether Edward pointed directly at “Liam’s” table or not isn’t that important. If no one had responded Edward would have simply expanded the “search area” and if that didn’t work he would have changed the name to something similar (John, Joseph, etc.). This is typically the way “psychics” go “fishing from an audience. Well within normal odds that Edward simply got lucky first time in selecting the correct area.

(2) A person from a table in that area holds his hand up to indicate an association with that name.
“Liam” may have said something like “That’s me” or “That’s my name” and RemieV may not have noticed. She wasn’t looking directly at “Liam” in the very first instance. Even if he said it quietly Edward may have been able to lip-read it. I doubt Edward would have merely assumed that it was the person’s own name.

(3) Edward asked the man (“Liam”) to stand up and he was given a microphone
“Liam“ didn‘t say anything.

(4) Edward then said it was weird because “Joshua” was the man’s name but he didn’t introduce himself that way at the table.
The real name may have been a name that is commonly shortened or nicknamed - William = bill, will, willy, etc. Don’t see why RemieV can’t provide the actual first name given as it’s a common name and the surname isn’t required and wouldn‘t be revealing any personal information. Even if it was would “Liam” care?

(5) Another person at the table was then asked to verify that he had introduced himself as “Liam“.
More theatrical than asking “Liam” but also far more risky unless you already know the answer for sure.

(6) Edward then asked Joshua to take out his driver's license and show it to everyone else at the table.
Once again theatrical but risky unless you know the person has a license and has it on them. I wonder if Edward asked if he had his license on him first? I don’t think RemieV has given us everything that was said in her short description and some really important bits are likely to have been left out.

[ynot]

Originally Posted by Resume

Did you frisk your fellow guests?

That's more likely than the table being bugged.

[Resume]

Originally Posted by ynot

That's more likely than the table being bugged.

I think so, but then again there are myriad ways to pull this trick off.

[ynot]

Originally Posted by RemieV

I can't clarify it at the moment. My laptop (where the file is stored) took ill and is currently being repaired.

Must say I’m somewhat disappointed by this reply as it’s an important point that you should be able to easily remember. Your OP clearly said it was “someone else at the table” that first said “Liam”. Why do you now doubt your own words?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

[ynot]

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

It’s beginning to look that way. I think RemieV may have gotten too close to her “subjects” as I don’t see that what she has described about either John is in any way anything “amazing” or difficult to understand and explain.

[RemieV]

Originally Posted by ynot

Must say I’m somewhat disappointed by this reply as it’s an important point that you should be able to easily remember. Your OP clearly said it was “someone else at the table” that first said “Liam”. Why do you now doubt your own words?

Because I listened to it and made the early posts when the computer was still working. Since I didn't *transcribe* it, I can't be absolutely positive at this time, and will have to wait until I receive the laptop back from the repair people, which will take about a week.

I am not too close to anyone. That would imply that I care about John Edward, or think that he is really a psychic. I don't, and I don't. I simply want to convey the words with accuracy.