The 100% Impossible 9/11 Inside Job

[leftysergeant]

Originally Posted by silver birch

you didn't have long to wait for flight 93 and 77.
93, thats the one where the terrorists bandana and flight attendents id must have been flung out of the window just before the plane disappeared into the abandoned mine at shanksville

As I recall, those were buried in the hole that the fuselage made. Nothing odd about either item surviving.

[silver birch]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Link, name and quote, please?
Last time we researched this website, there wasn't even a single plain firefighter from NY anywhere to be found with anything that would support their case.

Anton Vodvarka, Lt. (ret)

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

[leftysergeant]

Originally Posted by silver birch

Anton Vodvarka, Lt. (ret)

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

Inadmissible. He wasn't there.

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by silver birch

Originally Posted by Oystein

Originally Posted by silver birch

...
have a look at firefighters for 9/11 truth site. there is a statement by a NY fire chief who calls the official explanation impossible.

Link, name and quote, please?
Last time we researched this website, there wasn't even a single plain firefighter from NY anywhere to be found with anything that would support their case.

Anton Vodvarka, Lt. (ret)

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

1. What makes you think he was a fire chief? The rank of Lt.? Is that so?

2. Note the parenthese: "(ret)". He is now retired, and was retired already in 2001. He was not actually with the FDNY on 9/11/2001. So the information that he used to be a New York fire person (I avoid "chief" cuz I think that's a lie you told us) is irrelevant.

3. We talked about Vodvarka before on this forum, check out these posts from an interesting debate last october:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...ka#post7658758 (I show that Vodvarka is a liar, an all-around Conspiracy-Theories nut, and too old to have served the FDNY on 9/11)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...ka#post7661921 (Dave Rogers analyses the many lies Vodvarka tells)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...ka#post7664273 (LashL comments aptly on Vodvarka's lies and people, like you, silver birch, who let such lies pass)



ETA:
Check out the Wikipedia article on FDNY to learn about their ranks:

Quote:

Chief of Department
Chief of Fire Operations/Chief of EMS Operations
Assistant Chief/EMS Assistant Chief
Deputy Assistant Chief
Division Chief/EMS Division Chief
Deputy Division Chief/EMS Deputy Division Chief (Deputy to Division Chief or citywide EMS shift supervisor)
Battalion Chief
Captain (Company Commanding Officer, and commanding officer of the firehouse if assigned to an Engine company)/EMS Captain (EMS Station commanding officer or EMS Division shift supervisor)
Lieutenant (Company Officer)/EMS Lieutenant (shift supervisor, desk or conditions)
Firefighter (5th through 1st Class, one class being achieved for each year of service after probation up to five years)/EMT/Paramedic
Probationary Firefighter (often referred to as "Probie", as slang for rookie)/Provisional EMT/Provisional Paramedic

Vodvarka, as Lt., was NOT a fire chief! When he retired, he was a shoift supervisor at best! Two ranks below chief.

Silver birch, did you make that lie up yourself, or did you unskeptically repeat someone else's lie? I really want to know!

[leftysergeant]

Originally Posted by silver birch

http://firefightersfor911truth.org/

I should add that the site is headed by a rookie with less time investigating fires at the time he first posted his opinion to the web than I have. No professional gfroup of fire fighters have ever endorsed his theories. He actually get driven off of actual professional fire fighters' discussion boards.

The fact that he includes the blather of a sleazoid like George Nelson is a good indication that he is on shaky ground.

[NoahFence]

Originally Posted by silver birch

as a twoofer believing in the 'no planes theory' I feel I have become sidetracked.
there is no evidence the planes were hijacked, there is no cctv pictures of the hijackers at the airport the planes departed from. if the hijackers were on the planes they would not have got into the cockpit. airlines have been prepared for years to combat hijackers, no code 7600 (hijack) was received, which would have taken the pilot seconds. so the hijackers had 'boxcutters', short bladed knives. on an average airline flight there would be many male adult passengers, could the hijackers take them all on? if I was there, a piece of luggage from the overhead rack would have been thrown to their head hard.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuC_4mGTs98&feature=channel_video_title

oh, what about the phone calls?
what about the phone calls,
listen to the recording of the call from the flight attendent on flight 93 to her husband, who does not think it is genuine, it is obvious she is reading from a script under pressure, and is almost certainly not airborne
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJzoGD_zsiM&feature=channel_video_title
the most obvious lie is the pentagon story. the 5 frames of the security video do not show an airliner, hanjour, who was supposed to be piloting it could not handle a cessna, according to his flight school instructor. experienced pilots on pilots for 9/11 truth site say they could not make the manoevre 77 was supposed to have made. if it did it would pull 10g and break up. many witnesses arrived at the scene in a few minutes and did not see any wreckage.

You are a liar.

Not one syllable in that idiotic post is accurate, and what's more - you know it.

[Robrob]

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

Inadmissible. He wasn't there.

Not to mention, out of an organization of about 15,000 that there might be the odd kook isn't surprising to anyone.

[minnemouse]

Originally Posted by beachnut

What is your next delusional lie based on ignorance? 10 years of failure, and you are pushing lies, and you don't know it. Why are you unable to comprehend RADAR?

Hey Beachnut; didnt you know that all the ATCOs where in on this huge conspiracy too? Whats another few dozen of people in the huge picture

BTW, I have the same problem with chemtards; they dont understand the concept of radar either, so perhaps its a special illiteracy that the twoofers share with the tin foil hat brothas

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by silver birch

so, the fires were starting to go out then the demolition started.

No, they certainly were not. Unless of course you can provide some evidence of this....

Originally Posted by silver birch

the demolition collapse also killed 343 firefighters who entered the towers

I've fixed that for you. No need to thank me.

Originally Posted by silver birch

expecting the steel framed building to remain upright.

Yes and no. Expecting to be able to evacuate as many people as they could.

Originally Posted by silver birch

have a look at firefighters for 9/11 truth site. there is a statement by a NY fire chief who calls the official explanation impossible.

Yeah, he's foolish. FF911T has done nothing in the fire community.

Wanna see what real firefighters think of those dolts?
http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...r9-11truth-org

Erik Lawyer showed up here for a short time after I completely and utterly destroyed his entire argument, demanding that I reveal my true information. I of course wouldn't, and he hasn't been seen since.

[Safe-Keeper]

Quote:

...oh, what about the phone calls?
what about the phone calls,
listen to the recording of the call from the flight attendent on flight 93 to her husband, who does not think it is genuine, it is obvious she is reading from a script under pressure, and is almost certainly not airborne
www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJzoGD_zsiM&feature=channel_video_title

They don't even teach flight attendants how to properly sound like their plane's been hijacked these days. Sad.

I admit silver birch has a point, though, if I was a conspiracy maker I too would try to make the evidence look unconvincing to CTers. Makes perfect sense.

[minnemouse]

Originally Posted by triforcharity

Wanna see what real firefighters think of those dolts?
http://www.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=107457

Erik Lawyer showed up here for a short time after I completely and utterly destroyed his entire argument, demanding that I reveal my true information. I of course wouldn't, and he hasn't been seen since.

I cant get your link to work, but I get this link to work for me (I think)

http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...r9-11truth-org

[Edx]

Originally Posted by triforcharity

No, they certainly were not. Unless of course you can provide some evidence of this....

CUZ... CUZ dark smowk meanz duh fire is gowing owt!! DARK SMOKE ON 911 = PROOF NO BIG FIRES IN WTC!

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by minnemouse

I cant get your link to work, but I get this link to work for me (I think)

http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...r9-11truth-org

Yeah, that's the one. Old, outdated link. Thanks! Corrected!

[triforcharity]

Originally Posted by Edx

CUZ... CUZ dark smowk meanz duh fire is gowing owt!! DARK SMOKE ON 911 = PROOF NO BIG FIRES IN WTC!

Yeah, I was waiting for that. We might still get it. His level of ignorance, yeah, we'll still get it.

I'm just waiting for him to step in it wrt FDNY and such.

[minnemouse]

Originally Posted by triforcharity

Yeah, that's the one. Old, outdated link. Thanks! Corrected!

No problem, sire - I aim to please

Anyways; its a very interesting thread. NO ONE of the twoofer "firemen" thats there to put out their koko-theory have ever talked to any of the almost 12.000 NY FF, let alone to anyone that was actually there when it happened. Instead they do the same copy/paste of youtube vids. Thats must be some kind of a fetish with the CT`ers.... The FF that actually were there on the 11th of Sept 01, are furious with the CT guys..... And still some folks keeps ranting about the "firefighters" that support "the cause". Never mind that most are not firefighters, and never mind that those who are, never were anywhere close to NYC that fatal day..... Amazing.

[BasqueArch]

Originally Posted by minnemouse

No problem, sire - I aim to please

Our kind of gal.

Quote:

Anyways; its a very interesting thread. NO ONE of the twoofer "firemen" thats there to put out their koko-theory have ever talked to any of the almost 12.000 NY FF, let alone to anyone that was actually there when it happened. Instead they do the same copy/paste of youtube vids. Thats must be some kind of a fetish with the CT`ers.... The FF that actually were there on the 11th of Sept 01, are furious with the CT guys..... And still some folks keeps ranting about the "firefighters" that support "the cause". Never mind that most are not firefighters, and never mind that those who are, never were anywhere close to NYC that fatal day..... Amazing.

I asked a fireman in the firehouse across the street from WTC two weeks ago about demo of the Towers and conspiracy and he said " it's ********"

[minnemouse]

Originally Posted by BasqueArch

Our kind of gal.

Originally Posted by BasqueArch

I asked a fireman in the firehouse across the street from WTC two weeks ago about demo of the Towers and conspiracy and he said " it's ********"

We went to NYC in Sept -11, and we also talked to both policemen and firefighters; they are mad as hell at the "tinfoil hat brigade" and their inane theories. And I understand their (FF and cops) state of mind - there are a lot of ct`ers that has made this a big business, and that actually earns money on dead people and their grieving families and friends. Its nothing less than disgusting, and I place them in the same category as child molesters, rapists and murderers. They are the lowest form of life. (Sorry mods, but I really feel that.) These people has no sense of shame whatsoever.

We stayed at World Centre Hotel, and from the terrace of our room, we looked straight over to the fire house you mention. Having been to NYC before 9/11, it made a great impact to see the memorial park, and the gigantic holes with all the workers in, right under our terrace......

[leftysergeant]

Originally Posted by minnemouse

I cant get your link to work, but I get this link to work for me (I think)

http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...r9-11truth-org

As you can see, there is hardly a professional fire fighter who will give this outfit a bit of respect.

When Lawyer mentioned the "Patriots for 9/11 Truth" site, I just had to conclude that he is utterly incapable of deductive reasoning or some of the most basic research. He relies too heavily on the lies of that conman George Nelson, a known sympathizer with ultra-right-wing and racist groups.

He is also a total liar. He actually tries to sell the plane pods BS.

Garbage in, garbage out.

Lawyer is a rookie with an attitude problem.

[leftysergeant]

Originally Posted by silver birch

so, the fires were starting to go out then the demolition started. the demolition also killed 343 firefighters who entered the towers expecting the steel framed building to remain upright.

Cow cookies.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the JREF. The JREF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Oh, and take a look at the window at the left end of the sturcture in the inset. What is that bright shiney stuff that we see dripping out of the frame at about 4:30 onward?

[BaaBaa]

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

No professional gfroup of fire fighters have ever endorsed his theories. He actually get driven off of actual professional fire fighters' discussion boards.

If that's the thread I remember, he was really lucky he didn't make those allegations face to face; that thread was an epic internet beatdown.

[minnemouse]

Originally Posted by BaaBaa

If that's the thread I remember, he was really lucky he didn't make those allegations face to face; that thread was an epic internet beatdown.

Yup; exactly! I fully understand why the real firefighters were angry; this Lawyer character litterally called the firefighters that were actually THERE liars!

I am wondering if his real agenda is to make PR for his own real estate business?

[leftysergeant]

Originally Posted by minnemouse

I am wondering if his real agenda is to make PR for his own real estate business?

Last I heard, he was working at Windemere, which appears to cater more for the luxury market than working class homes.

In that context, it seems a dumb move.

Not that it would surprise me.

[silver birch]

Originally Posted by Oystein

1. What makes you think he was a fire chief? The rank of Lt.? Is that so?

2. Note the parenthese: "(ret)". He is now retired, and was retired already in 2001. He was not actually with the FDNY on 9/11/2001. So the information that he used to be a New York fire person (I avoid "chief" cuz I think that's a lie you told us) is irrelevant.

3. We talked about Vodvarka before on this forum, check out these posts from an interesting debate last october:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...ka#post7658758 (I show that Vodvarka is a liar, an all-around Conspiracy-Theories nut, and too old to have served the FDNY on 9/11)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...ka#post7661921 (Dave Rogers analyses the many lies Vodvarka tells)
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.p...ka#post7664273 (LashL comments aptly on Vodvarka's lies and people, like you, silver birch, who let such lies pass)



ETA:
Check out the Wikipedia article on FDNY to learn about their ranks:

Vodvarka, as Lt., was NOT a fire chief! When he retired, he was a shoift supervisor at best! Two ranks below chief.

Silver birch, did you make that lie up yourself, or did you unskeptically repeat someone else's lie? I really want to know!

do not accuse me of lying
I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute. OK so in the FDNY it means something else.
NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

[leftysergeant]

Originally Posted by silver birch

NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

Yeah, well that does not mean that the old dude gets a pass. He's probably quite dotty, from what I see him spewing on CT sites.

He was not in any place from which he coulld observes anything I could not see on TV. He seems to have gotten most of his data from Alex Jones.

I must summarily dismiss anything else he claims as just more uniformed blather.

[triforcharity]

Just a reminder to everyone here. Erik Lawyer is a member here, and is therefore protected by the MA.

Hey silver, I have a post you COMPLETELY ignored. Would you care to address it?

[twinstead]

Originally Posted by silver birch

do not accuse me of lying
I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute. OK so in the FDNY it means something else.
NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

So exactly what are the criteria for an opinion to be scoffed at or not scoffed at in your opinion? You DO realize that there are opinions from high-ranking and respected members of the FDNY that are in support of the "official story" (or what rational people call the commonly-held narrative of events).

Do you think their opinions should be scoffed at or ignored?

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by silver birch

do not accuse me of lying
I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute. OK so in the FDNY it means something else.
NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

So you just admitted that you personally made up that "chief" bit; whether out of ignorance or ill intent is secondary. Do not make up claims that you can't support with facts!

Even in the British armed forces, lieutenants are the most junior rank of commissioned officers typically conceived of as the deputy to a Captain who would commandeer a company. Why did you make him a "chief" when your informnation was simply "Lt."? Why not call him a lieutenant? Why the urge to beef-up his credentials?

Vodvarka is one voice among millions of firefighers. His having formerly served with the FDNY means nothing in context; he wasn't active in 2001 and wasn't there when it happened. The thousands of active FDNY men and women on the scene, among them real chiefs, much more highly qualified than Vodvarka, made the calls and are the ones to go to. Why are they not featured om FF911T? Why is a CT-loon from the lower ranks who's retired to Florida the only asset they have? Answer: Because real, qualified firefighters know full well that CT nuts are wrong.

Where are the FDNY firefighters who do believe in 9/11 truth? I asked you before for a name, link and quote. You only found the retired low CT nut, the one who also believes in JFK conspiracy theories and is all invested in fiat-money CTs. The guy who would believe any crap you throw at him.

So I must repeat my request: Names, links and quotes please of real FDNY men from the scene who beliebe truther lore!


ETA:
FF911T has a list of signers of their petiton. The first 80 or 85 are "Confirmed Firefighter Signatories", then follow close to 1000 "Other Signatories".

Among the "Confirmed Firefighter Signatories", there are a few with ties to the FDNY:

1. Bryan Hunt, FDNY, retired 8-15 Years: "I retired from FDNY in 1998. I knew many of the guys who died in the WTC collapses. May they rest in peace. I've read tons of information re. the deaths of my brothers on 9/11. I've watched the videos, listened to the rantings on both sides. It wasn't until 2006 that I began questioning the "official story" and did my own research. There is bad info on both sides, but I've concluded that the "official story" doesn't add up. It sounds like a whitewash. The 9/11 Commission didn't investigate anything--they just took statements. We need a real, independent investigation, with supeona powers. If the "offical" version is correct, so be it. And if heads are going to roll at any level of the government or military, so be it. Let's do it, and let's not be afraid of the truth. The brothers deserve that much."
2. Jim Osorio, LFD Rescue 1 - Acting Rescue 5 FDNY N/A: "I responded to this horrific incident with my fellow firefighters, and will always remember this and will never forget my brother and sister firefighters who responded and paid the ultimate sacrifice."
3. John Keenan FDNY retired N/A
4. xxxxxxxx FDNY ret. Lt. 15+ Years (in alphabetical order between "Kevin" and "Laila")

#1 was retired in 2001.

#2 lies: See this post: "Mr. Osorio was not a member of the FDNY nor was he at ground zero." He was with the Livingston FD (New Jersey), and they helped out FDNY Rescue 5 in Staten Island after Rescue 5 had lost 11 men at the WTC.

#3 Is an unclear case. Via Google, I find two John Keenans, they are father and son. The father entered the FDNY in 1970 and is a retired Batallion Chief by now. Not sure when he retired, but I found one document that shows he was retired in october 2003 already. His son entered the FDNY in jan, 2002. Both are depicted here: http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/me...ire/pdf/17.pdf
Now, strangely, I found a photo on MySpace with Eric Lawyer and a John Keenan, and I don't think he looks like the nice eledrly man in the previous document: http://www.myspace.com/firefightersf...hotos/14901412

#4 is an anonymous. Retired. No personal statement.

[Sabretooth]

Originally Posted by silver birch

do not accuse me of lying.

What would you call it?

You either made up this little nugget or you just regurgitated the garbage from somewhere else. Neither opinion is favorable.

Quote:

I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute. OK so in the FDNY it means something else.

Huh?

Based on what I've found, the rank of Lieutenant in either the RAF or British Army is on the low end of officers.

This holds true in the fire service as well. I am currently an EMS Lieutenant at my station...and I'm the lowest ranking officer.

You got a great nose for research there...

Jeez...a 5-second stop at wikipedia would have kept you from making a fool of yourself. But, in typical truther fashion, you just say your stupid statements and make everyone do your research for you.

Quote:

NEVERTHELESS, I do not think his opinion is to be scoffed at, or ignored, as is a person of ANY rank serving in the FDNY. especially the firefighters who were lucky to get out of the buildings alive, some of whom, from what they saw and heard, do not believe the official story either.

You just outed yourself as a big old hypocrite. Out of the 11,000+ members of FDNY, a couple of kooks demand more attention than the overwhelming majority? Using your logic, your argument automatically fails.

There are several members here...Tri, Bell, myself...that are real life fireman. Don't come in here and try to pretend like you know what you're talking about.

[NoahFence]

Quote:

do not accuse me of lying

There's an easy way around that, you know.

Don't lie.

[sheeplesnshills]

Originally Posted by silver birch

New pearl harbour revisited, by David Ray Griffin,
would have caused sufficient structural damage to help initiate collapse.

you were asked to source Skilling not Griffin. (do you know Griffin is a theologian don't you?). And Griffin lies when he says calcs were for a 707 at 600mph.

[silver birch]

Originally Posted by twinstead

So exactly what are the criteria for an opinion to be scoffed at or not scoffed at in your opinion? You DO realize that there are opinions from high-ranking and respected members of the FDNY that are in support of the "official story" (or what rational people call the commonly-held narrative of events).

Do you think their opinions should be scoffed at or ignored?

what are the criteria?
how about the ones who are not afraid of losing their jobs for speaking up?

[Oystein]

Originally Posted by silver birch

what are the criteria?

The criteria are of course "are they arguing from facts or from fiction?" and "do they arrive at their conclusions using facts and principles of logic and science?", and in those regards, we have already shown last year that Anton Vodvarka fails - on the FF911T homepage he regurgitates a lot of "truther" talking points that are, plainly and simply, FALSE, and goes from there. He works from false premises^[1] because he wasn't there and has not been exposed to all the relevant evidence. Instead, he lives and breathes CT woo.


[1] Footnote: Or, more likely, he works backwards from false conclusions and chooses false premises just because he feels they support his false conclusions.

Originally Posted by silver birch

how about the ones who are not afraid of losing their jobs for speaking up?

Loaded and invalid question. Do you have proof that anybody loses their job for speaking up? In that case, every fireman of the FDNY who was there and has retired since could have spoken up, as they can't lose their job any longer. It's been over 10 years, ya know. We can expect 25% of the thousands who have been there to have spoken up.

The much more logical explanation for their silence is the null-hypothesis: That there is nothing to be spoken up of.

[twinstead]

Originally Posted by silver birch

what are the criteria?
how about the ones who are not afraid of losing their jobs for speaking up?

Yea, you're right--nobody in the history of the Earth has ever decided to risk his job or even his very life to expose a conspiracy. Thread over

Seriously? Do you seriously think that you can just hand wave that question away with "they're just afraid of loosing their jobs?"?

[twinstead]

Originally Posted by sheeplesnshills

you were asked to source Skilling not Griffin. (do you know Griffin is a theologian don't you?). And Griffin lies when he says calcs were for a 707 at 600mph.

Being a theologian is very important in this debate because it means that God is on Griffin's side. We're doomed!

[Disbelief]

Originally Posted by twinstead

Yea, you're right--nobody in the history of the Earth has ever decided to risk his job or even his very life to expose a conspiracy. Thread over

Seriously? Do you seriously think that you can just hand wave that question away with "they're just afraid of loosing their jobs?"?

And they have been so quiet concerning problems in NY. They have not complained about radio communications on 9/11 or the effects of the conditions at GZ during clean up.

[BStrong]

Originally Posted by TruthersLie

Too often CT'ers (and the 9/11 version aren't any better) think that the gubmint is all powerful, but able to hide anything...

I am reminded of how much the US government was paying for screwdrivers in the 90's (upwards of $250 per screwdriver you could buy from ACE hardware for under $10) and toilet seats for the navy ($400 to $800 per seat).

We have a government where a secret between 2 people (bill clinton and monica L) couldn't be covered up, but a super sekret gubmint CT that would involve dozens (at the bare minimum) up to thousands of people (cuz it is compartamentalized) and no one ever comes forward... amazing operational security.

Not a truther here, but one of the ways that black ops funds are hidden in the budget are what you describe above in bold.

WRT Tempesta's version - all that MKultra really proved is that the human mind can be fooled with - you can't turn a Quaker into Carlos Hathcock or Larry Thorne.

[Edx]

Originally Posted by silver birch

do not accuse me of lying
I called him a fire chief because as a british person I understood the title lieutenant to be a fairly high rank in the armed forces, having served in the forces myself. certainly above corporal, sargeant, sargeant major, and a rank which the lower ranks would salute..

Really?

http://www.army.mod.uk/structure/23155.aspx

According to the official British Army website, the first very basic officer rank greater than Officer Cadet is Second Lieutenant.

[Safe-Keeper]

Why do I get the feeling silver birch has never served, has no clue how the British 'forces work, and is lying again?

[twinstead]

In the US military a "butter bar" second lieutenant technically outranks a command sergeant major, and that NCO would have to salute him, but I know which ones opinion would hold more weight.

[leftysergeant]

Originally Posted by silver birch

what are the criteria?
how about the ones who are not afraid of losing their jobs for speaking up?

That is totally un-called for. You imply that the ballsiest mofs in NYC can be intimidated into concelaing information concerning the murder of about three hundred of their brothers, that they would remain silent when their lungs start rotting out, that they could be bribed into silence when they would really want to destroy the career of a worthless poppinjay like Rotten Rudy.

Let me tell you something about how real men, especially fire fighters react to people who try to use fear to control them.

When frightened, people either become intimidated and accept control over them, or they get pissed off and take action against that which they fear.

Fire fighters are paid to force their way into the center of places where nobody with the sense that God gave houseflies wants to be. They spend a great part of their lives facing down one of the forces of nature that cause weaker soulls to melt into a pile of goo.

Take your fear of unemployment and put it someplace where it causes you discomfort. Fire fighters have no time for it.