Terrorist Attack in Spain - Over 60 dead

[Darat]

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500452.stm

Quote:

Scores die in Madrid bomb carnage


A string of deadly blasts has hit three Madrid train stations during the rush hour with latest reports speaking of more than 100 people killed.

Dazed and bloodied commuters staggered from the Atocha station in the heart of the Spanish capital where two blasts destroyed a suburban train.

Two other train stations were also hit by the near simultaneous explosions.

...snip...

They threatened they'd start bombing again, I suppose all we can hope for is that this won’t be a prelude back to the 70s scale of terrorist murders.

[Jon_in_london]

Sh!te!

Thats terrible, I love Madrid.

Nobody seems to like those Castillians very much though, do they?

[Jon_in_london]

It seems Darat is the winner, but only by a single minute!

[iain]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
It seems Darat is the winner, but only by a single minute!

Quicker isn't always better. Bask in the high quality of my thread and mock at the shoddyness of Darat's effort.

[Oleron]

I suppose it's ETA but do we know for sure it's not bin Laden's mob?

Either way my thoughts are with the families of the dead and injured.

These people are dead because someone, somewhere had a belief he couldn't tolerate other people not having.

The perpetrators deserve pity, if you can manage it. Scorn, if you can't.
I can't manage pity.

[richardm]

I must admit I've been conditioned to think of any bomb as being Al Qaeda in origin, and it was my first thought this morning. However, my second thought was that Eta is the most likely to be setting bombs off in Madrid.

I note that this is the second batch of bombs to go off in trains recently - there was one on the Moscow subway a few weeks back.

Personally, I've always thought that a bomb on an Underground train would be as good a terror weapon as you could hope to have, and frankly I'm surprised that it's not happened. It would be particularly straightforward in these days of suicide bombers. A single person with a rucksack full of Semtex on a few of the major underground lines - Circle, Bakerloo, Northern Line for example - would cripple London for days or even weeks.

It's not a particularly cheerful line of thought.

[iain]

Quote:

Originally posted by Oleron
I suppose it's ETA but do we know for sure it's not bin Laden's mob?

Either way my thoughts are with the families of the dead and injured.

I was at the Atocha station in Madrid just a few weeks ago; a colleague's girlfriend is heading there in the next few days. Scary stuff, and tragic for the dead, the injured and their families.

Eta does seem most likely. A plot to blow up a station in Madrid was apparently foiled in December when police arrested suspected Eta members driving to Madrid with 500Kg of explosives in their truck. With Spain having a general election this week, the aim is presumably to disrupt the democratic process and force Eta's agenda into the election.

Nothing proven yet though, as far as I know.

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by Oleron

These people are dead because someone, somewhere had a belief he couldn't tolerate other people not having.

Actually, someone, somewhere wants a seperate state for whatever reasons... Nonetheless, the deliberate and indiscriminate murder of 60 people just trying to earn a living while harming no-one is thoroughly dispicable when there are peacefull avenues available.


I give this thread 2 hours before it turn into an Isreal/Palestine slanging match.

[richardm]

The death toll has gone up to over 130 - that's more than doubled in the last couple of hours. A pretty major atrocity

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
Personally, I've always thought that a bomb on an Underground train would be as good a terror weapon as you could hope to have, and frankly I'm surprised that it's not happened. It would be particularly straightforward in these days of suicide bombers. A single person with a rucksack full of Semtex on a few of the major underground lines - Circle, Bakerloo, Northern Line for example - would cripple London for days or even weeks.

Weeks!? since it takes them 6 months just to service an escalator, I doubt they would be able to restore full service before the thermal heat death of the universe.

Scary thing is, you dont even have to be a suicide bomber, just fill a coke can with nails and semtex, leave can on train. boom.

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Weeks!? since it takes them 6 months just to service an escalator, I doubt they would be able to restore full service before the thermal heat death of the universe.

True

Quote:

Scary thing is, you dont even have to be a suicide bomber, just fill a coke can with nails and semtex, leave can on train. boom.

That would kill lots of people and make a mess, but I was thinking about a really big bang that would leave a huge mass of wreckage and perhaps compromise the integrity of the tunnel. Doing the job properly, if you like. For that you'd need a substantial amount of explosive, and Londoners get a bit twitchy if people leave large bags lying around on trains. Whether they'd be twitchy enough to act on it in time if you hopped off the train at a station and left it timed to go off as the train pulled out, I don't know.

Anyway - shouldn't derail the thread, really.

Edited to add: Above pun was unintentional. And also, I've just seen the pictures of the Madrid trains; That does look quite comprehensive. I don't think Eta use suicide bombers either, so you can probably ignore all that waffling above.

[The Don]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london

Scary thing is, you dont even have to be a suicide bomber, just fill a coke can with nails and semtex, leave can on train. boom.

And if you're no into killing people, small devices with timers chucked onto the rails to damage them could work nearly as effectively.

Not that any of us are planning such an attack Mr MI5

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
…snip…

Personally, I've always thought that a bomb on an Underground train would be as good a terror weapon as you could hope to have, and frankly I'm surprised that it's not happened. It would be particularly straightforward in these days of suicide bombers. A single person with a rucksack full of Semtex on a few of the major underground lines - Circle, Bakerloo, Northern Line for example - would cripple London for days or even weeks.

…snip…

I've often wondered about the targets chosen by terrorists in the UK in the past. I've made an assumption that we really did have good intelligence and it forced them to be less "strategic". For instance two vans with explosives under a couple of the major flyovers into London, or on the M25 could cripple the whole of Greater London area, probably for months.

(I was also angered but not surprised when I heard Straw offering sympathy and understanding because (paraphrasing) "we've had bomb attacks in London". How dare the man, what about all the other places in the UK that have suffered terrible bomb attacks!)



But to the important news, if this is ETA then I think it may actually be the end of the organisation. When it is “just” a handful of people at a time being killed every few months we seem to learn to live with it. This is such a terrible tragedy and the scale seems enormous that it may shock people out of their apathy. I suspect that many of those that previously may have said “yes, but they do have a point..” will no longer find those words comfortable.

(Why do we keep killing each other for such stupid and inane reasons? )

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Don


And if you're no into killing people, small devices with timers chucked onto the rails to damage them could work nearly as effectively.

Not that any of us are planning such an attack Mr MI5

Or just phone in a warning 15 minutes before.... You get lots of carnage but no blood spilled.

[geni]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Nonetheless, the deliberate and indiscriminate murder of 60 people just trying to earn a living while harming no-one is thoroughly dispicable when there are peacefull avenues available.

What peaceful avenues would these be? You can't be talking about political ones since the main party has been banned.

[Mr Manifesto]

QUICK! INVADE IRAQ!

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by geni


What peaceful avenues would these be? You can't be talking about political ones since the main party has been banned.

There are other separatist parties who do not affiliate themselves with ETA, though, llike the Basque National Party. Batasuna only got about 10% of the vote last time around, so they're not exactly the main one, just the most famous on account of them being a bunch of terrorist scum ^H^H^H^H supporters.

[Otther]

AOL's news gave me the impression this was just a run-of-the-mill train accident.

It's so easy, no wonder it's number one!!

[zenith-nadir]

The ETA is justified in blowing up three Madrid train stations. Why?

1) The Spanish "settlements" on Bask land.

2) The Spanish "occupation" of Bask lands.

3) The Spanish government's "arrests and assasinations" of Bask leaders.

4) The French "deportations" of all the ETA members in 1986.



Or is blowing up civilians only acceptable when Israelis are the targets?

[Reginald]

Terrible news.

I have to agree that this could be the final major outing for ETA (on the assumption it is them).

They carry out these atrocities imagining that they have some kind of popular support for their agenda. In most cases this simply isn't true. This seems to be the case here. Either the majority are happy to be part of Spain proper, or have drifted away accepting the cause is lost, or they are unable to morally equate these acts with any long term benefit.

On the basis that the bigger the death toll, the higher the reward, I should imagine it won't take long for the people who carried this out to be handed over.

[Jon_in_london]

Quote:

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
The ETA is justified in blowing up three Madrid train stations. Why?

1) The Spanish "settlements" on Bask land.

2) The Spanish "occupation" of Bask lands.

3) The Spanish government's "arrests and assasinations" of Bask leaders.

4) The French "deportations" of all the ETA members in 1986.



Or is blowing up civilians only acceptable when Israelis are the targets?

Only took 1 hour.

[zenith-nadir]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london
Only took 1 hour.

What's that jon? Feel free to share.

[Fendetestas]

I'm here in Madrid and I must say I'm very pleased with the reaction of the population. You wouldn't believe the enormous queues of people willing to donate blood, for example. My University has cancelled all activities today as a gesture of protest and solidarity (a quick one too, as the bombs exploded this morning, it's 13:25 here now) Another reason is the obvious one: the bombs exploded in a commuter train station and a lot of people couldn't made it to the city. The last number of victims I have heard is 173 killed, hundreds of wounded.

[The Don]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jon_in_london


Only took 1 hour.

I think you should get the $1m

[Reginald]

Quote:

Or is blowing up civilians only acceptable when Israelis are the targets?

Don't you think there are enough threads on that issue without having to have a stab at derailing this one????

[Fendetestas]

It seems now that the plan was to detonate all 5 bombs when the train entered the station, it could have been worse (only three exploded and outside the station)

[zenith-nadir]

Quote:

Originally posted by Reginald
Don't you think there are enough threads on that issue without having to have a stab at derailing this one????

Derailing? One post "derails" an entire thread at JREF? Wow do you have ADD Reginald?

I was makig a point. That point being some find palestinian terrorism "acceptable" while everyone finds this example of terrorism in Madrid "unacceptable"...Why is that?

Ok...back to your easily-derailed thread...

[richardm]

Latest just in from ITN:

ETA say "It wasn't us, guv".

Whether this is because it really wasn't them, or whether they've realised they've overdone it this time, I don't know.

[Reginald]

Quote:

Originally posted by zenith-nadir



Derailing? One post "derails" an entire thread at JREF? Wow do you have ADD Reginald?

I was makig a point. That point being some find palestinian terrorism "acceptable" while everyone finds this example of terrorism in Madrid "unacceptable"...Why is that?

Ok...back to your easily-derailed thread...

I didn't say you had derailed, I said you were having a stab at derailing it, kindly read before attempting a retort, however weak.

[Fendetestas]

I think this will be a major blow for ETA (though I don't think it will be their end) In the past four, five years they have lost an awful lot of their support, with ever growing demonstrations, concerts... And don't forget we're having general elections this sunday. I think this will make some people who weren't going to vote change their minds, and I'm sure the Partido Popular (the current governing party and the favourite in the upcoming election) will gain votes because of this. I know this is the case with some friends of mine. Not with me, I don't like them at all (compulsory Religion in all schools and highschools...)

By the way, the Minister of Justice has just said that they have no doubt is the responsibility of ETA, and also that they were trap bombs, with retarded timers.

[Fendetestas]

Quote:

Originally posted by richardm
Latest just in from ITN:

ETA say "It wasn't us, guv".

This doesn't mean anything. ETA doesn't claim responsibility for all its attacks and they never do it so soon.

[Oleron]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fendetestas
I'm here in Madrid and I must say I'm very pleased with the reaction of the population. You wouldn't believe the enormous queues of people willing to donate blood, for example. My University has cancelled all activities today as a gesture of protest and solidarity (a quick one too, as the bombs exploded this morning, it's 13:25 here now) Another reason is the obvious one: the bombs exploded in a commuter train station and a lot of people couldn't made it to the city. The last number of victims I have heard is 173 killed, hundreds of wounded.

This atrocity just gets worse..
I just can't imagine how you guys in Madrid feel at the moment. Perhaps some of the New York members have some idea.

[Oleron]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fendetestas
I think this will be a major blow for ETA (though I don't think it will be their end) In the past four, five years they have lost an awful lot of their support, with ever growing demonstrations, concerts... And don't forget we're having general elections this sunday. I think this will make some people who weren't going to vote change their minds, and I'm sure the Partido Popular (the current governing party and the favourite in the upcoming election) will gain votes because of this. I know this is the case with some friends of mine. Not with me, I don't like them at all (compulsory Religion in all schools and highschools...)

By the way, the Minister of Justice has just said that they have no doubt is the responsibility of ETA, and also that they were trap bombs, with retarded timers.

These 'own goals' damage these organisations badly, just ask the IRA. Hopefully more peaceful means of protest can now be explored.

[Fendetestas]

This is an incredible shock here, and a "quantum leap" in the atrocities of this organization. ETA has killed more people today than in the past 12 years (until this morning, we had 800 people killed since 1968) I can't wait to hear what Otegi (leader of the political arm of the band) has to say.

[zenith-nadir]

Quote:

Originally posted by Reginald
I didn't say you had derailed, I said you were having a stab at derailing it, kindly read before attempting a retort, however weak.

Actually Reginald, I don't believe you are psychic and 'know' the 'reasons' and 'motivations' for every post I make at JREF.

I don't believe that you actually 'knew' I was "having a stab at derailing this thread"....I believe you just didn't like what I wrote and instead of addressing it you prefer to take the easy way out and "invent" my motivation and call it a "having a stab at derailing this thread"....

[Graham]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fendetestas


This doesn't mean anything. ETA doesn't claim responsibility for all its attacks and they never do it so soon.

On the other hand, the US has been heavily publicising Spainish involvement in their little alliance against Iraq.

Of the three big players (the US, UK and Spain) in that alliance, Spain is probably the easiest target (being on the mainland for a start).

It's not beyond possibility that Al Queda or some offshoot are behind this, IMO.

Graham

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fendetestas


This doesn't mean anything. ETA doesn't claim responsibility for all its attacks and they never do it so soon.

Maybe not, but in this case they've condemned the attacks, so they're not just ducking responsibility but actively distancing themselves from this. This could just be cowardice, but it might be worth noting that synchronised, near-simultaneous attacks are an Al-Qaeda trademark, so perhaps they're being truthful (although why they should consider it acceptable to kill a few people at a time but condemn the killing of dozens, I cannot imagine).

There's nothing to say that other people can't do sync'd attacks as well, of course, but it will be interesting to see what the investigation can turn up.

[Bluegill]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fendetestas
I'm here in Madrid and I must say I'm very pleased with the reaction of the population. You wouldn't believe the enormous queues of people willing to donate blood, for example. My University has cancelled all activities today as a gesture of protest and solidarity (a quick one too, as the bombs exploded this morning, it's 13:25 here now) Another reason is the obvious one: the bombs exploded in a commuter train station and a lot of people couldn't made it to the city. The last number of victims I have heard is 173 killed, hundreds of wounded.

I hear things about the people of Madrid, and the Spanish in general, that make me admire them. My condolences to the people of your city. Though I guess it's not likely, I hope the casualty estimates start to go back down.

[Fendetestas]

Well, I'm not saying I'm certain ETA is behind of this, but I'm quite convinced. First of all, the Minister of Interior has just said in a public appearance that they have "no doubt" ETA is behind this. Furthermore, it's logical for ETA to do this (and I believe there'll be more in the following days) just before the elections.

[richardm]

Quote:

Originally posted by Fendetestas
Well, I'm not saying I'm certain ETA is behind of this, but I'm quite convinced. First of all, the Minister of Interior has just said in a public appearance that they have "no doubt" ETA is behind this. Furthermore, it's logical for ETA to do this (and I believe there'll be more in the following days) just before the elections.

I agree that the motivation is there for ETA, timing-wise, but I'd love to know how the Minister is so certain, so quickly. Especially considering that the attack is so disproportionately large compared to past ETA efforts.