Can US citizens give away their passports?

The Fool · 16th January 2011, 07:08 PM

OK....a US citizen likes what some foreign intelligence agency does with fraudulant passports....so he gives them his passport to use.

Is the US government ok with this?

just curious.....

dtugg · 16th January 2011, 07:35 PM

They are property of the US government so I highly doubt it.

The Fool · 16th January 2011, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by dtugg

They are property of the US government so I highly doubt it.

I highly doubt it too. But in another thread Mycroft said he would be happy to give his Passport to "the cause" and asked me to show him what, if anything, the likely consequences would be if your act was discovered...I can't find a specific law in the US that would prevent it but I just assumed I was a very bad searcher or its one of those things like "there is no specific law that says you can't eat the president" sort of things....

theprestige · 16th January 2011, 08:01 PM

Well, depending on the "cause" in question, I imagine indictments could potentially include anything from giving aid or comfort to the nation's enemies to conspiracy to commit fraud.

I don't speak for Mycroft, of course, but I imagine if there's a cause you think is worth fighting for, it's probably a cause you think is worth exploiting your passport for.

Thunder · 16th January 2011, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

OK....a US citizen likes what some foreign intelligence agency does with fraudulant passports....so he gives them his passport to use.

Is the US government ok with this?

just curious.....

Page 6 of my passport says the following:

1. It is unlawful for any person other than the named bearer to use this passport. Use of this passport in contravention of the passport regulations or of the conditions or restrictions set out in this passport, or for travel to countries where a U.S. passport is not valid is a felony.

2. U.S. Government Property: This passport is the property of the United States Government.

So yeah, sure, give your passport to the Israelis or the Russians or the French, and enjoy your time in Federal prison. Anyone who gives up their passport to a foreign country to be used in an intelligence or assassination operation, is a traitor.

Puppycow · 16th January 2011, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

Is the US government ok with this?

Absolutely not. As Thunder noted, your passport isn't even your property. It belongs to the government.

(I'd bet the Aussie government has the same policy, btw. I'd be surprised if any government were OK with that.)

MG1962 · 16th January 2011, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

Page 6 of my passport says the following:

1. It is unlawful for any person other than the named bearer to use this passport. Use of this passport in contravention of the passport regulations or of the conditions or restrictions set out in this passport, or for travel to countries where a U.S. passport is not valid is a felony.

2. U.S. Government Property: This passport is the property of the United States Government.

so yeah, sure, give your passport to the Israelis or the Russians or the French, and enjoy your time in Federal prison.

Just to expand on your post a little. This site http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/...cies_1197.html

mentions some specifics about lost passports

U.S. Department of State form DS-64 may be used for this purpose, or you may simply execute a sworn statement before the consular officer describing what happened. A police report is not mandatory but may be required when the embassy/consulate believes a problem may exist such as possible fraud

MG1962 · 16th January 2011, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Absolutely not. As Thunder noted, your passport isn't even your property. It belongs to the government.

(I'd bet the Aussie government has the same policy, btw. I'd be surprised if any government were OK with that.)

Yeppers. My passport says "This passport remains the property of the Australian Government" It is the very last thing in it

Thunder · 16th January 2011, 08:35 PM

I'm sure my friend at the State Dept. would just love to hear about an American citizen who is willing to hand over his passport to a foreign government for intelligence operations.

The Fool · 16th January 2011, 08:50 PM

anyone seen Mycroft?

Ray Brady · 16th January 2011, 09:06 PM

I'm curious as to why the government doesn't want old passports back when they expire. I've still got every passport that's ever been issued to me.

DallasDad · 16th January 2011, 09:10 PM

Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs. In the old days, every country would stamp your passport for you (even if they didn't normally, they would upon request), so the passport became a record of your travels.

The Fool · 16th January 2011, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Ray Brady

I'm curious as to why the government doesn't want old passports back when they expire. I've still got every passport that's ever been issued to me.

probably because expired passports can't be used? I don't keep old passports because the pictures remind me of how stupid my hair looked most of my life.

Beerina · 16th January 2011, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by DallasDad

Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs. In the old days, every country would stamp your passport for you (even if they didn't normally, they would upon request), so the passport became a record of your travels.

I got my passport renewed, and the old one came back with a nice hole drilled through it, including the picture, IIRC.

Damien Evans · 16th January 2011, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

probably because expired passports can't be used? I don't keep old passports because the pictures remind me of how stupid my hair looked most of my life.

How can you tell under that helmet?

Grizzly Adams · 16th January 2011, 11:28 PM

Old passports are returned unless there's a reason not to, because many visas are issued and placed in passports that are valid beyond the validity of that book. A visa is still valid even if the book it's in has expired.

Mycroft · 16th January 2011, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

I highly doubt it too. But in another thread Mycroft said he would be happy to give his Passport to "the cause" and asked me to show him what, if anything, the likely consequences would be if your act was discovered...I can't find a specific law in the US that would prevent it but I just assumed I was a very bad searcher or its one of those things like "there is no specific law that says you can't eat the president" sort of things....

So previously when I said you have no idea, I was dead on correct.

Originally Posted by The Fool

anyone seen Mycroft?

PhantomWolf · 17th January 2011, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Thunder

Anyone who gives up their passport to a foreign country to be used in an intelligence or assassination operation, is a traitor.

No they aren't. US Law defines a Treason very narrowly, and giving your passport to a foreign country to be used in an intelligence or assassination operation is not covered unless they are an US enemy who uses it against the US.

Quote:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Fool · 17th January 2011, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by Mycroft

So previously when I said you have no idea, I was dead on correct.

Now that it has been displayed to you are you now aware of the seriousness of giving your Passport to a foreign Intelligence service or are we still in the denial phase?

Thunder · 17th January 2011, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

No they aren't.

I meant in the general sense. Not the legal sense.

traitor: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor

FireGarden · 17th January 2011, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by The Fool

anyone seen Mycroft?

No. But records indicate he's in Dubai. And Qatar. And Australia, Canada, New Zealand....

theprestige · 17th January 2011, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

Now that it has been displayed to you are you now aware of the seriousness of giving your Passport to a foreign Intelligence service or are we still in the denial phase?

What seriousness would that be? All I see in this thread is some idle, amateur speculation--no offense, everybody.

I can imagine that it's serious, but that's all I'm doing--imagining. Even the fact that the passport is government property doesn't signify: Money is government property, too, and technically defacing money is a crime. I bet you have no clue how serious that is, either.

Thunder · 17th January 2011, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

What seriousness would that be? All I see in this thread is some idle, amateur speculation--no offense, everybody.

I can imagine that it's serious, but that's all I'm doing--imagining. Even the fact that the passport is government property doesn't signify: Money is government property, too, and technically defacing money is a crime. I bet you have no clue how serious that is, either.

I shall text my friend in the State Dept. now and ask him what charges would an American face if they purposefully gave their American passport to the Israelis, knowing and hoping it would be used in an intelligence operation.

Lets see what he says.

Travis · 17th January 2011, 04:00 PM

What is the background of this? What "cause" is being helped here? What nation is the passport being given to?

drkitten · 17th January 2011, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

What seriousness would that be? All I see in this thread is some idle, amateur speculation--no offense, everybody.

I can imagine that it's serious, but that's all I'm doing--imagining.

U.S.C. Title 18, Part I, chapter 75, section 1544 holds that:

Quote:

Whoever willfully and knowingly furnishes, disposes of, or delivers
a passport to any person, for use by another than the person for whose
use it was originally issued and designed--
Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 25 years
(if the offense was committed to facilitate an act of international
terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of this title)), 20 years (if the
offense was committed to facilitate a drug trafficking crime (as defined
in section 929(a) of this title)), 10 years (in the case of the first or
second such offense, if the offense was not committed to facilitate such
an act of international terrorism or a drug trafficking crime), or 15
years (in the case of any other offense), or both.

By contrast, constructing a border tunnel will draw a max of 20 years; robbing a post office gets at most five years; extortion draws a max of a year.

I submit this is serious.

drkitten · 17th January 2011, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Travis

What is the background of this? What "cause" is being helped here? What nation is the passport being given to?

The background is that Israel has been accused of using false passports, most recently and significantly on an alleged assassination mission to Dubai, where they used British passports. The actual allegations involve identity theft, but of course it would be fairly easy for someone to cooperate with identity thieves if they supported the ostensible cause.

The cause (and nation) aren't really relevant here; in fact, given the well-documented history of false-flag operations in intelligence work, anyone who believes he's actually spying for country A is as likely to be a dupe working for country B instead.

The question was simply how much trouble a US citizen could get into by doing this.

I Ratant · 17th January 2011, 04:27 PM

Was it here some poor soul was upset at the RFID chip in his new passport that he microwaved it and burned out the chip?
And we wished him luck using that passport.
Homeland Security might take him aside for an extended talking-to!
.
Mine is 50 years old.
And I haven't aged a bit!
( I wish!)

WildCat · 17th January 2011, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

Was it here some poor soul was upset at the RFID chip in his new passport that he microwaved it and burned out the chip?
And we wished him luck using that passport.
Homeland Security might take him aside for an extended talking-to!
.
Mine is 50 years old.
And I haven't aged a bit!
( I wish!)

You have a 50 year old RFID chip?

godless dave · 17th January 2011, 04:36 PM

I'm the Mossad has much more reliable methods of getting passports for their agents. In fact, I'm pretty sure if you offered them yours, they would turn it down and look at you funny.

fuelair · 17th January 2011, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

I highly doubt it too. But in another thread Mycroft said he would be happy to give his Passport to "the cause" and asked me to show him what, if anything, the likely consequences would be if your act was discovered...I can't find a specific law in the US that would prevent it but I just assumed I was a very bad searcher or its one of those things like "there is no specific law that says you can't eat the president" sort of things....

But didn't Monica Lewinski do exactly that to Clinton when he was Pres?

Jeff Corey · 17th January 2011, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by fuelair

But didn't Monica Lewinski do exactly that to Clinton when he was Pres?

There was no law against that, and apparently she didn't swallow.

I Ratant · 17th January 2011, 05:34 PM

God-damned grammar nazis!
Leave her in the kitchen making cookies!

PhantomWolf · 17th January 2011, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Thunder

I meant in the general sense. Not the legal sense.

traitor: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor

Ahhh, you mean like the general use of fascism.

fascism: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control .

Would that be right?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

I Ratant · 17th January 2011, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

You have a 50 year old RFID chip?

.
It is a bulky thing.
The 67-1/2 volt B battery is pretty massive.
And the tube warms it up uncomfortably.

Mycroft · 17th January 2011, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by The Fool

Now that it has been displayed to you are you now aware of the seriousness of giving your Passport to a foreign Intelligence service or are we still in the denial phase?

As usual, you pretend to have made some point when you haven't. As the prestige pointed out, nothing's been said other than idle speculation.

I have no doubt letting someone else use your passport violates some regulation somewhere, but the consequences are not likely to be very severe. After all, we can look at the British, Irish, French and German people who’s passports were actually used for the assassination of Al-Mabhouh and see with absolute certainty that nothing serious happened with them. A few hours being questioned, a short time of public notoriety, and then it’s all done. A small price to pay to take someone like Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh out of this world.

Travis · 17th January 2011, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by drkitten

The background is that Israel has been accused of using false passports, most recently and significantly on an alleged assassination mission to Dubai, where they used British passports. The actual allegations involve identity theft, but of course it would be fairly easy for someone to cooperate with identity thieves if they supported the ostensible cause.

The cause (and nation) aren't really relevant here; in fact, given the well-documented history of false-flag operations in intelligence work, anyone who believes he's actually spying for country A is as likely to be a dupe working for country B instead.

The question was simply how much trouble a US citizen could get into by doing this.

Okay, thank you.

MG1962 · 17th January 2011, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
It is a bulky thing.
The 67-1/2 volt B battery is pretty massive.
And the tube warms it up uncomfortably.

Liar! everyone knows they came with paired batteries - either 68 or 66

KoihimeNakamura · 18th January 2011, 12:55 AM

@Mycroft: ... ignoring what DrKitten posted

Puppycow · 18th January 2011, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by Ray Brady

I'm curious as to why the government doesn't want old passports back when they expire. I've still got every passport that's ever been issued to me.

Originally Posted by DallasDad

Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs. In the old days, every country would stamp your passport for you (even if they didn't normally, they would upon request), so the passport became a record of your travels.

Sometimes you may still need them if they contain visa stamps or the like.

FireGarden · 18th January 2011, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by Rika

@Mycroft: ... ignoring what DrKitten posted

Or...
The "there's no serious conseqences because I'll get away with it" gambit.

16th January 2011, 07:08 PM	#1
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Can US citizens give away their passports? OK....a US citizen likes what some foreign intelligence agency does with fraudulant passports....so he gives them his passport to use. Is the US government ok with this? just curious.....
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

16th January 2011, 07:48 PM	#3
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by dtugg They are property of the US government so I highly doubt it. I highly doubt it too. But in another thread Mycroft said he would be happy to give his Passport to "the cause" and asked me to show him what, if anything, the likely consequences would be if your act was discovered...I can't find a specific law in the US that would prevent it but I just assumed I was a very bad searcher or its one of those things like "there is no specific law that says you can't eat the president" sort of things....
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

16th January 2011, 08:01 PM	#4
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,568	Well, depending on the "cause" in question, I imagine indictments could potentially include anything from giving aid or comfort to the nation's enemies to conspiracy to commit fraud. I don't speak for Mycroft, of course, but I imagine if there's a cause you think is worth fighting for, it's probably a cause you think is worth exploiting your passport for.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,568

16th January 2011, 08:14 PM	#5
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by The Fool OK....a US citizen likes what some foreign intelligence agency does with fraudulant passports....so he gives them his passport to use. Is the US government ok with this? just curious..... Page 6 of my passport says the following: 1. It is unlawful for any person other than the named bearer to use this passport. Use of this passport in contravention of the passport regulations or of the conditions or restrictions set out in this passport, or for travel to countries where a U.S. passport is not valid is a felony. 2. U.S. Government Property: This passport is the property of the United States Government. So yeah, sure, give your passport to the Israelis or the Russians or the French, and enjoy your time in Federal prison. Anyone who gives up their passport to a foreign country to be used in an intelligence or assassination operation, is a traitor.
	Last edited by Thunder; 16th January 2011 at 08:18 PM.

16th January 2011, 08:17 PM	#6
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Japan Posts: 15,722	Originally Posted by The Fool Is the US government ok with this? Absolutely not. As Thunder noted, your passport isn't even your property. It belongs to the government. (I'd bet the Aussie government has the same policy, btw. I'd be surprised if any government were OK with that.)
	__________________ “Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them. With Major Major it had been all three.” ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22 Last edited by Puppycow; 16th January 2011 at 08:21 PM.

16th January 2011, 07:35 PM	#2
dtugg Banned Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: NWO headquarters Posts: 7,898	They are property of the US government so I highly doubt it.

16th January 2011, 08:24 PM	#7
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Thunder Page 6 of my passport says the following: 1. It is unlawful for any person other than the named bearer to use this passport. Use of this passport in contravention of the passport regulations or of the conditions or restrictions set out in this passport, or for travel to countries where a U.S. passport is not valid is a felony. 2. U.S. Government Property: This passport is the property of the United States Government. so yeah, sure, give your passport to the Israelis or the Russians or the French, and enjoy your time in Federal prison. Just to expand on your post a little. This site http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/...cies_1197.html mentions some specifics about lost passports U.S. Department of State form DS-64 may be used for this purpose, or you may simply execute a sworn statement before the consular officer describing what happened. A police report is not mandatory but may be required when the embassy/consulate believes a problem may exist such as possible fraud

16th January 2011, 08:33 PM	#8
MG1962 Guest Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kansas (Australia) Posts: 14,750	Originally Posted by Puppycow Absolutely not. As Thunder noted, your passport isn't even your property. It belongs to the government. (I'd bet the Aussie government has the same policy, btw. I'd be surprised if any government were OK with that.) Yeppers. My passport says "This passport remains the property of the Australian Government" It is the very last thing in it

16th January 2011, 08:35 PM	#9
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	I'm sure my friend at the State Dept. would just love to hear about an American citizen who is willing to hand over his passport to a foreign government for intelligence operations.

16th January 2011, 08:50 PM	#10
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	anyone seen Mycroft?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

16th January 2011, 09:06 PM	#11
Ray Brady Muse Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 579	I'm curious as to why the government doesn't want old passports back when they expire. I've still got every passport that's ever been issued to me.
Ray Brady Muse Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 579

16th January 2011, 09:10 PM	#12
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 688	Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs. In the old days, every country would stamp your passport for you (even if they didn't normally, they would upon request), so the passport became a record of your travels.
DallasDad Muse Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 688

16th January 2011, 09:10 PM	#13
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Ray Brady I'm curious as to why the government doesn't want old passports back when they expire. I've still got every passport that's ever been issued to me. probably because expired passports can't be used? I don't keep old passports because the pictures remind me of how stupid my hair looked most of my life.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

16th January 2011, 10:12 PM	#14
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by DallasDad Expired passports are stamped or punched so as to be useless except as souvenirs. In the old days, every country would stamp your passport for you (even if they didn't normally, they would upon request), so the passport became a record of your travels. I got my passport renewed, and the old one came back with a nice hole drilled through it, including the picture, IIRC.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

16th January 2011, 10:51 PM	#15
Damien Evans Up The Irons Tagger Join Date: May 2007 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 25,280	Originally Posted by The Fool probably because expired passports can't be used? I don't keep old passports because the pictures remind me of how stupid my hair looked most of my life. How can you tell under that helmet?
	__________________ WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN? - Death "Racism is a disease in society. We're all equal. I don't care what their colour is, or religion. Just as long as they're human beings they're my buddies." - Mandawuy Yunupingu, lead singer of Yothu Yindi

16th January 2011, 11:28 PM	#16
Grizzly Adams Muse Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 993	Old passports are returned unless there's a reason not to, because many visas are issued and placed in passports that are valid beyond the validity of that book. A visa is still valid even if the book it's in has expired.
Grizzly Adams Muse Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 993

16th January 2011, 11:33 PM	#17
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by The Fool I highly doubt it too. But in another thread Mycroft said he would be happy to give his Passport to "the cause" and asked me to show him what, if anything, the likely consequences would be if your act was discovered...I can't find a specific law in the US that would prevent it but I just assumed I was a very bad searcher or its one of those things like "there is no specific law that says you can't eat the president" sort of things.... So previously when I said you have no idea, I was dead on correct. Originally Posted by The Fool anyone seen Mycroft?
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees

17th January 2011, 12:41 AM	#18
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,893	Originally Posted by Thunder Anyone who gives up their passport to a foreign country to be used in an intelligence or assassination operation, is a traitor. No they aren't. US Law defines a Treason very narrowly, and giving your passport to a foreign country to be used in an intelligence or assassination operation is not covered unless they are an US enemy who uses it against the US. Quote: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
	__________________ It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My Apollo Page. 1 on 1 Debating Forum for Skeptics and sceptics.

17th January 2011, 02:09 AM	#19
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 11,558	Originally Posted by Mycroft So previously when I said you have no idea, I was dead on correct. Now that it has been displayed to you are you now aware of the seriousness of giving your Passport to a foreign Intelligence service or are we still in the denial phase?
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

17th January 2011, 03:39 AM	#20
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by PhantomWolf No they aren't. I meant in the general sense. Not the legal sense. traitor: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor

17th January 2011, 03:51 AM	#21
FireGarden Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Spannungsbogen -- without a visa Posts: 5,043	Originally Posted by The Fool anyone seen Mycroft? No. But records indicate he's in Dubai. And Qatar. And Australia, Canada, New Zealand....
	__________________ When Americans talk about freedom, it’s our secular code word for salvation. There’s no salvation outside the church; there’s no freedom outside the American way of life. -- James Carroll B'tselem Tony Karon's blog

17th January 2011, 12:48 PM	#22
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,568	Originally Posted by The Fool Now that it has been displayed to you are you now aware of the seriousness of giving your Passport to a foreign Intelligence service or are we still in the denial phase? What seriousness would that be? All I see in this thread is some idle, amateur speculation--no offense, everybody. I can imagine that it's serious, but that's all I'm doing--imagining. Even the fact that the passport is government property doesn't signify: Money is government property, too, and technically defacing money is a crime. I bet you have no clue how serious that is, either.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,568

17th January 2011, 01:18 PM	#23
Thunder Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Queens Posts: 34,947	Originally Posted by theprestige What seriousness would that be? All I see in this thread is some idle, amateur speculation--no offense, everybody. I can imagine that it's serious, but that's all I'm doing--imagining. Even the fact that the passport is government property doesn't signify: Money is government property, too, and technically defacing money is a crime. I bet you have no clue how serious that is, either. I shall text my friend in the State Dept. now and ask him what charges would an American face if they purposefully gave their American passport to the Israelis, knowing and hoping it would be used in an intelligence operation. Lets see what he says.

17th January 2011, 04:00 PM	#24
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 17,937	What is the background of this? What "cause" is being helped here? What nation is the passport being given to?
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Zingiber Officinale The Humor blog of some not crazy guy

17th January 2011, 04:10 PM	#25
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by theprestige What seriousness would that be? All I see in this thread is some idle, amateur speculation--no offense, everybody. I can imagine that it's serious, but that's all I'm doing--imagining. U.S.C. Title 18, Part I, chapter 75, section 1544 holds that: Quote: Whoever willfully and knowingly furnishes, disposes of, or delivers a passport to any person, for use by another than the person for whose use it was originally issued and designed-- Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 25 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate an act of international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of this title)), 20 years (if the offense was committed to facilitate a drug trafficking crime (as defined in section 929(a) of this title)), 10 years (in the case of the first or second such offense, if the offense was not committed to facilitate such an act of international terrorism or a drug trafficking crime), or 15 years (in the case of any other offense), or both. By contrast, constructing a border tunnel will draw a max of 20 years; robbing a post office gets at most five years; extortion draws a max of a year. I submit this is serious.

17th January 2011, 04:22 PM	#26
drkitten Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wits' End Posts: 21,647	Originally Posted by Travis What is the background of this? What "cause" is being helped here? What nation is the passport being given to? The background is that Israel has been accused of using false passports, most recently and significantly on an alleged assassination mission to Dubai, where they used British passports. The actual allegations involve identity theft, but of course it would be fairly easy for someone to cooperate with identity thieves if they supported the ostensible cause. The cause (and nation) aren't really relevant here; in fact, given the well-documented history of false-flag operations in intelligence work, anyone who believes he's actually spying for country A is as likely to be a dupe working for country B instead. The question was simply how much trouble a US citizen could get into by doing this.

17th January 2011, 04:27 PM	#27
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Was it here some poor soul was upset at the RFID chip in his new passport that he microwaved it and burned out the chip? And we wished him luck using that passport. Homeland Security might take him aside for an extended talking-to! . Mine is 50 years old. And I haven't aged a bit! ( I wish!)

17th January 2011, 04:32 PM	#28
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 49,015	Originally Posted by I Ratant Was it here some poor soul was upset at the RFID chip in his new passport that he microwaved it and burned out the chip? And we wished him luck using that passport. Homeland Security might take him aside for an extended talking-to! . Mine is 50 years old. And I haven't aged a bit! ( I wish!) You have a 50 year old RFID chip?

17th January 2011, 04:36 PM	#29
godless dave Great Dalmuti Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: St. Paul, Minnesota Posts: 6,126	I'm the Mossad has much more reliable methods of getting passports for their agents. In fact, I'm pretty sure if you offered them yours, they would turn it down and look at you funny.
	__________________ "If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm

17th January 2011, 05:25 PM	#30
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,900	Originally Posted by The Fool I highly doubt it too. But in another thread Mycroft said he would be happy to give his Passport to "the cause" and asked me to show him what, if anything, the likely consequences would be if your act was discovered...I can't find a specific law in the US that would prevent it but I just assumed I was a very bad searcher or its one of those things like "there is no specific law that says you can't eat the president" sort of things.... But didn't Monica Lewinski do exactly that to Clinton when he was Pres?
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 28,900	__________________ There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed. Wash this space! We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!

17th January 2011, 05:33 PM	#31
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,794	Originally Posted by fuelair But didn't Monica Lewinski do exactly that to Clinton when he was Pres? There was no law against that, and apparently she didn't swallow.

17th January 2011, 05:34 PM	#32
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	God-damned grammar nazis! Leave her in the kitchen making cookies!

17th January 2011, 06:38 PM	#33
PhantomWolf Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Lost Deimos Moon Base Posts: 9,893	Originally Posted by Thunder I meant in the general sense. Not the legal sense. traitor: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/traitor Ahhh, you mean like the general use of fascism. fascism: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control . Would that be right? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism
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17th January 2011, 07:44 PM	#34
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 15,305	Originally Posted by WildCat You have a 50 year old RFID chip? . It is a bulky thing. The 67-1/2 volt B battery is pretty massive. And the tube warms it up uncomfortably.

17th January 2011, 08:15 PM	#35
Mycroft High Priest of Ed Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 16,105	Originally Posted by The Fool Now that it has been displayed to you are you now aware of the seriousness of giving your Passport to a foreign Intelligence service or are we still in the denial phase? As usual, you pretend to have made some point when you haven't. As the prestige pointed out, nothing's been said other than idle speculation. I have no doubt letting someone else use your passport violates some regulation somewhere, but the consequences are not likely to be very severe. After all, we can look at the British, Irish, French and German people who’s passports were actually used for the assassination of Al-Mabhouh and see with absolute certainty that nothing serious happened with them. A few hours being questioned, a short time of public notoriety, and then it’s all done. A small price to pay to take someone like Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh out of this world.
	__________________ Surely Israel is the party to blame? -a_unique_person I do have Mycroft on ignore, he is pretty much the Matt Giwer of your side. -a_unique_person Palestinian Refugees